Are Gentiles under Jewish Law?

[caprice09]

All you need is love...

How can an atheist get the point before we do. "All you need is love." "God is love!" Christ is the Word of God come in the flesh. What better teacher can I possibly have than God Himself? Whose hands could be laid upon me to ordain me for some service or position in the church and have it be more significant that the right hand of God? Of what baptism or communion or circumcision, or any other sacrement could be of better benefit and relevance to my eternal life than of accepting the cross of Christ, the gift of God, and Example to the church?

The purpose of the law was to reverence the Word of God; which has been made manifest in the flesh before us as Jesus Christ! The law which shall ever be is Christ! The fulfillment of the law (the old testamant, letter of the law) is fulfilled by the "finished" works of the cross which made inevitable the victory of God (which is why it is written; "But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified."). The threat that God was warning you of by the law, which Christ suffered upon Himself for your benefit, is the spirit of the law ("as you have judged so shall you be judged" in which all men are made "a law unto themselves," and shall effect the gentiles just as much as the Jews. In fact, the Jews should have known it by the knowledge of the law saying, "an eye for an eye!") automatically fulfilled through His sacrifice and following after the gospel of Grace ("as you would that men should do unto you, do you even so unto them").

Grace is merely taking intiative: knowing the judgment of God to be according to our own ways, then do those things you would want to be repaid by the hand of God!

 

[David777]

Hello brakelite.

Some what interested in your view on the human nature of Christ?

The following is from Wikipedia:

The human nature of Jesus Christ

Since the middle of the 20th century, there has been ongoing debate within Adventism concerning whether Jesus Christ took on a fallen or an unfallen nature in the Incarnation which was precipitated by the publication of Questions on Doctrine in 1957, which some claim advocated the latter interpretation, while others see the quotes given, such as, Jesus took "man's nature in its fallen condition" or "our fallen nature" and claim it is the former.

Adventist doctrine is that He took "man's nature in its fallen condition," but yet "Christ did not in the least participate in its sin", which shows Christ with post fall humanity but a sinlessness of Adam before the fall.

The debate revolves around the interpretation of several biblical texts:
<dl><dd>"For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh." Romans 8:3 (ESV)</dd></dl> <dl><dd>"For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathise with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet was without sin." Hebrews 4:15 (NIV)</dd></dl> <dl><dd>"...concerning his Son (Jesus), who was descended from David according to the flesh..." Romans 1:3 (ESV)</dd></dl> <dl><dd>"Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people." Hebrews 2:17 NKJV</dd></dl> According to Adventist historian George Knight, most early Adventists (until 1950) believed that Jesus Christ was born with a human nature that was not only physically frail and subject to temptation, but that he also had sinful inclinations and desires.

Since 1950, only the "historic" wing of the church holds this view of Christ's human nature. Mainstream Adventists since 1950 believe that Jesus was beset with all of the weaknesses and frailties that ordinary humans experience, such as sickness and hunger. However, He did not have the propensity to sin. Christ could be tested by temptation, but did not have our ungodly desires or sinful inclinations.

Ellen White states "The Lord Jesus came to our world, not to reveal what a God could do, but what a man could do, through faith in God’s power to help in every emergency. Man is, through faith, to be a partaker in the divine nature, and to overcome every temptation wherewith he is beset."

The controversy within Adventism over Christ’s human nature is linked to the debate over whether it is possible for a "last generation" of Christian believers to achieve a state of sinless perfection. These matters were discussed at the Questions on Doctrine 50th Anniversary Conference. Both points of view are currently represented at the Biblical Research Institute.
According to Woodrow W. Whidden II (himself a supporter of the "unfallen" position), proponents of the view that Christ possessed a "fallen" nature include M. L. Andreasen, Joe Crews, Herbert Douglass, Robert J. Wieland, Thomas Davis, C. Mervyn Maxwell, Dennis Priebe, Bobby Gordon and Ralph Larson. Proponents of the view that Christ's nature was "unfallen" include Edward Heppenstall, Hans K. LaRondelle, Raoul Dederen, Norman Gulley, R. A. Anderson, Leroy E. Froom and W. E. Read.

 

[SpiritLedEd]

According to Adventist historian George Knight, most early Adventists (until 1950) believed that Jesus Christ was born with a human nature that was not only physically frail and subject to temptation, but that he also had sinful inclinations and desires.

Heb 2:18 - Because He suffered when He was tempted, He is
able to help those who are being tempted.

Lk 4:2 - ......for forty days He was tempted by the devil. He ate
nothing during those days and at the end of them He was hungry

Mt 3:16 - As soon as Jesus was baptized, He went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending on Him like a dove.

If Jesus wasn't fully human as well as being fully God, how could He be tempted, how could he be hungry, and why would He need the Holy Spirit?


SLE

 

[brakelite]

Whoa....

Wow, lol, seems this thread has taken a turn in another direction again...BAC, not my fault :shade:
Okay. Jesus took upon Himself the human nature of fallen Adam. I am not a believer in the Roman concept of original sin, therefore I do not believe that Jesus inherited any propensity to sin, but certainly the capacity to sin. I agree with the E G White statement as quoted,
"The Lord Jesus came to our world, not to reveal what a God could do, but what a man could do, through faith in God’s power to help in every emergency. Man is, through faith, to be a partaker in the divine nature, and to overcome every temptation wherewith he is beset."

I am convinced that this is possible, not because of any inherent quality man has, but rather because of what God is capable of doing in us, and what He has already proven in Christ. As Jesus Himself declared, "Of mine own self I can do nothing." Jesus lived by faith, to show what is possible. When tempted, He in faith trusted in the power of God's word. All His mighty acts were all acts of faith...He did nothing by His own power or strength. Such is possible for man. It has always been so. Even in the OT God said that the just were to live by faith. It is still so today, for without faith it is impossible to please God. Can man overcome sin? Certainly not in his own strength, but in God's? Of course. Anything less is a denial of the power of God to save.

If Jesus could overcome by relying totally upon the power of God working in and through Him, then so can we. To claim that Jesus hjad some sort of advantage over us is to deny the scripture quoted by David, "For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathise with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet was without sin." Hebrews 4:15

 

[David777]

Hello brakelite.

A very, very interesting reply.

I will place Ellen's quote here to remind you what she said.

"The Lord Jesus came to our world, not to reveal what a God could do, but what a man could do, through faith in God’s power to help in every emergency."

The scripture claims a different understanding of Jesus Christ
and His human form.

John 5:17-18

Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working.” For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

John 10:30-33 “I and the Father are one.” Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?” “We are not stoning you for any of these,” replied the Jews, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”

Philippians 2:5-6 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped.

Jesus did not hesitate to claim equality with God the Father. The Greek word for equal in John 5:18 is isos, as in an isosceles, or equal-sided, triangle. Jesus was and is “in very nature God,” and therefore was not blaspheming by claiming to be God. The disbelieving Jews had correctly heard Jesus to be making this claim to full deity, even though they rejected His claim. Is Jesus God? The apostle Paul clearly identified Jesus as "being in very nature God".

Jesus, whose earthly birth is prophesied, is said to be “from of old, from everlasting,” or “from the days of eternity.” He is not a created being. Rather, He has existed from all eternity. This is a very important
point brakelite.

Revelation 1:8, 17-18

“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.” When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

Revelation 22:12-13,

16 “Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.... “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."

Note the glorious titles of “the Alpha and the Omega,” “the Beginning and the End,” “the First and the Last,” “the Almighty,” “the Lord God, who is, and who was, and who is to come.” Read all these titles of Deity, and note that every one in the context can be applied specifically to Jesus, before, during and after life on earth.

The Bible is the revelation of Jesus the Divine Son!

Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.

Matthew 1:23

“The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel”—which means, “God with us.”
Isaiah gave us this glorious prophecy of Jesus’ virgin birth. Matthew amplifies the prophecy by identifying this promised Son as “Immanuel — which means ‘God with us.’ ” Jesus is “GOD with us”! “A son”, yes. But also “God”!

Isaiah 9:6

For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

John 20:27-28

Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.” Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”

The apostle Thomas correctly addressed Jesus as “My Lord and my God.” Is Jesus God? That is precisely how the apostle Thomas described Him, with no contradiction offered by Jesus.

John 1:1, 14 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God...The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Jesus is called “the Word”, the Logos, of God. As the Logos, He is the manifestation or expression of God to us, “the image of the invisible God” (Colossians 1:15). “The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of His being” (Hebrews 1:3). He “came from the Father.” As the Logos, Jesus “the Word was with God, and the Word [Jesus] was God.”

1 Timothy 3:16

King James Version And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.”

“GOD was manifest in the flesh,” clearly in context referring to Jesus.

Not a man living by faith???

God almighty in the flesh.

Ellen G White earns a failure on her understanding of the scriptures.

 

[caprice09]

Your quotes from your last two posts just proved this argument. How can all the quotes of scripture be true unless Christ is both human and divine? Unless He took upon Himself all the characteristics of sin, being "made in ALL points like unto His brethren," than there is no High priest "able to succor!" And unless He is the divine nature than there is no sacrifice without blemish for sin! Then we are left again with a great "gulf" between God and man that no man can bridge by his own works of righteousness, but God, to whom nothing is impossible, can. Hence the doctrine of grace, for nothing man could do could earn fellowship with God, but God can grant it of Himself. And if Grace is required to establish salvation, than also it is required to maintain it, hence the example of Jesus Christ!

Here is the mediator of God's covenants, God with us, because man could not do it of Himself, God did it in the form of a man! For nothing is worthy of God, but God! Fulfilling the prophecy of the Prophet, like unto Moses, receiving the Word firsthand and manifesting it to the congregation. Just as the law of written commandments was doomed to failure for the "weakness and unprofitability thereof" the living manifestation of the Word made flesh has made manifest the intents of the heart of God in all His works.

So too the focal point of our salvation, the resurrection of Christ, is not the manifestation of God's power to grant life; for surely the Creator of all has already made known this power. But rather the simultaneous righteousness of God the Father and the Son (and by implication the Holy Spirit also). God being a faithful and righteous judge must judge impartialy (without respect of persons): hence Christ cannot be resurrected because He is the son of God (even as the Jews are not saved by being the sons of Abraham) but only in accordance to the fulfillment of the law (the Word of God). Christ being the perfect expression of Godliness (the righteous nature of God) made manifest in the flesh, being born in the flesh, of a woman, under the law, executes the fulfillment of the law (not the mere "tenor" of the covenant but the fullness of the Word of God) as though in the name of mankind. Though it may seem to us a contradiction, Christ is both the Word of God (expressing the divine nature of God), and the example of the Church (having come in the flesh as demonstration of the gospel and Word of God). Is not this the works of God, reconciling two things that seem to be contradictory and impossible to be joined together, made essential and inevitable to the fulfillment of the Word of God?

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

caprice09,I follow what your saying and I believe I have ample evidence from scripture to support your position.
But we must sacrifice a few sacred cows to see it.

Jesus said all judgement was given unto him by the father.
Jesus also said he judges no man.

John 8:15 Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.

We know the verse below cant be talking about God because he gave all judgment to Jesus:
John 8:50 And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth.

The only ones judging it seems to me is us.
We are supposed to be one in him so when I judge another I am judging myself.I should judge outsiders as the next insiders.

It doesn't help a dead person to point out that he's dead.
It helps them if you point out that they are given life by Christ if they will just believe it.

 

[brakelite]

A very, very interesting reply.

I will place Ellen's quote here to remind you what she said.

"The Lord Jesus came to our world, not to reveal what a God could do, but what a man could do, through faith in God’s power to help in every emergency."

The scripture claims a different understanding of Jesus Christ
and His human form.

John 5:17-18

Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working.” For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

John 10:30-33 “I and the Father are one.” Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?” “We are not stoning you for any of these,” replied the Jews, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”

Philippians 2:5-6 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped.

Jesus did not hesitate to claim equality with God the Father. The Greek word for equal in John 5:18 is isos, as in an isosceles, or equal-sided, triangle. Jesus was and is “in very nature God,” and therefore was not blaspheming by claiming to be God. The disbelieving Jews had correctly heard Jesus to be making this claim to full deity, even though they rejected His claim. Is Jesus God? The apostle Paul clearly identified Jesus as "being in very nature God".

Jesus, whose earthly birth is prophesied, is said to be “from of old, from everlasting,” or “from the days of eternity.” He is not a created being. Rather, He has existed from all eternity. This is a very important
point brakelite.

Revelation 1:8, 17-18

“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.” When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

Revelation 22:12-13,

16 “Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.... “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."

Note the glorious titles of “the Alpha and the Omega,” “the Beginning and the End,” “the First and the Last,” “the Almighty,” “the Lord God, who is, and who was, and who is to come.” Read all these titles of Deity, and note that every one in the context can be applied specifically to Jesus, before, during and after life on earth.

The Bible is the revelation of Jesus the Divine Son!

Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.

Matthew 1:23

“The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel”—which means, “God with us.”
Isaiah gave us this glorious prophecy of Jesus’ virgin birth. Matthew amplifies the prophecy by identifying this promised Son as “Immanuel — which means ‘God with us.’ ” Jesus is “GOD with us”! “A son”, yes. But also “God”!

Isaiah 9:6

For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

John 20:27-28

Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.” Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”

The apostle Thomas correctly addressed Jesus as “My Lord and my God.” Is Jesus God? That is precisely how the apostle Thomas described Him, with no contradiction offered by Jesus.

John 1:1, 14 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God...The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Jesus is called “the Word”, the Logos, of God. As the Logos, He is the manifestation or expression of God to us, “the image of the invisible God” (Colossians 1:15). “The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of His being” (Hebrews 1:3). He “came from the Father.” As the Logos, Jesus “the Word was with God, and the Word [Jesus] was God.”

1 Timothy 3:16

King James Version And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.”

“GOD was manifest in the flesh,” clearly in context referring to Jesus.

Not a man living by faith???

God almighty in the flesh.

Ellen G White earns a failure on her understanding of the scriptures.

David, David, David. In your determination to trample upon the church I belong to, you are clutching at some very unreliable straws. Let us read again the selected quote from E G White.
"The Lord Jesus came to our world, not to reveal what a God could do, but what a man could do, through faith in God’s power to help in every emergency."


Where in the above does it state that Jesus isn't the divine Son of God??? Read it again without giving it something you want it to have, but doesn't. It simply says that Jesus came not to reveal what a God can do...but rather what a man can do through faith in God. Jesus was most certainly God in the flesh, but He did not do anything as God, but as man. He laid aside all His divine attributes before His incarnation. His power, His foreknowledge, His omnipresence, His omnipotence. He was fully man, and lived as such.

You would do well to study a little deeper into what E G White says regarding the nature of Christ. She, and the church she helped establish, firmly and irrevocably believe Jesus is the divine Son of God. There really is no room for debate over that matter, and you're grasping way beyond your reach to claim otherwise.

 

[David777]

In reply brakelite.

God in human flesh.

Not fully human living by faith.

Read Philippians chapter two brakelite.

5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,

6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,

7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.

8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

Never fully man by any means, of the flesh yes but still God almighty.

No faith is required brakelite, He is God, please explain how "faith" is exercised by the messiah in Ellens statement.

Fully God and fully man at the same time.

 

[caprice09]

Not Man???

If "the righteous shall live by faith," by what account is Christ righteous, if He is not truly a man living by faith? If He is not truly a man, did He truly come...did he truly die...did he truly rise? If not then there would be no hope for salvation and "we are of all men most miserable!" What a worthless example to the church if He is not a man living by faith! Can He realistically expect us to have faith if He cannot? The Faith of the Messiah is committing His life into the hands of a Faithful Judge, waggering His very life upon the integrity of His Word (which is what it says that God does to give us assurance of His promises by saying "by myself have I sworn." Hebrews 6:12-20. That if God be righteous and true it must be according to His Word, because God cannot lie or contradict Himself; "he cannot deny Himself," hence His Word is as righteous and faithful as He is).

To show that there is no conflict of interest with God, the trinity performs three seperate offices completely independant of each other. Only by their humility and grace one toward another and the integrity of God, consistant throughout, can God be proven righteous! The cross did not perform the "kingdom come" of its own, but the commitment of the works of Christ to the righteous judgment of God, reaps fruit according the seed sown!

Without this example we have no right to believe that these things are granted to us through His Spirit, for how can God offer Himself unto us if we cannot do so much for Him! Psalm 18! And if the sinful nature of our flesh cannot be sanctified by the Holy Spirit and presense of "God with us," then what salvation are we left with at all?

 

[David777]

Hello all.

Please read the following line carefully.

Philippians 2

8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming
obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

Jesus Christ in human form did humble himself. Note, Jesus has the consciousness,
the nature of God, then God (Jesus) humbled Himself for the purpose of the reconciliation.

If Jesus was "fully man" and had a fully human consciousness, there would be no reason
to humble himself.

How can a man have the awareness that He is God?

The life of Christ is an example to us of sinless obedience to His Father.
Nevertheless, it was God on the cross receiving the penalty that was addressed to us.

God and man at the same time, albeit a humble God.

Did Jesus have a father and a mother like we do?

Did not Jesus in human form utter the famous "before Abraham, I AM".

His Light shone in the darkness, how bright was that light.

Great is this mystery.

 

[brakelite]

Please read the following line carefully.

Philippians 2

8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming
obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

Jesus Christ in human form did humble himself. Note, Jesus has the consciousness,
the nature of God, then God (Jesus) humbled Himself for the purpose of the reconciliation.

If Jesus was "fully man" and had a fully human consciousness, there would be no reason
to humble himself.

How can a man have the awareness that He is God?

Good question. Which is why I personally believe that Jesus learned of His divinity through studying the scriptures, and finding within them a description of Himself. Aside of that He also had His mother to relate to Him the details of His birth and the various messages from angels to Her and Elisabeth, and also Simeon and Anna in the temple at His dedication. Which of course means that He also learned of His death and resurrection the same way. He lived by faith...just as we must. I am not however setting forth Christ as our example, for that would suggest we have innate power to copy...which we don't...Christ is verily our substitute...as we surrender to Him our lives we can exchange our weak sin-filled lustful lives for His perfect life of righteousness and love...what a privilege.

The life of Christ is an example to us of sinless obedience to His Father.
Nevertheless, it was God on the cross receiving the penalty that was addressed to us.

God and man at the same time, albeit a humble God.

Did Jesus have a father and a mother like we do?

Did not Jesus in human form utter the famous "before Abraham, I AM".

His Light shone in the darkness, how bright was that light.

Great is this mystery.

You are right, great is this mystery. However, if you cannot believe that Jesus was fully man and at the same time fully God, then it is you that has the problem, not Ellen White, nor me.
Allow me to quote E G White on this subject that may help to give you a clearer perspective on what we as a church believe. It appears you are confusing us with Jehovah's Witnesses who believe Jesus was a created being.

Christ, the Word, the only begotten of God, was one with the eternal Father; one in nature, in character, in purpose; the only being that could enter into all the counsels and purposes of God. "His name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The Mighty God, The everlasting Father, The prince of Peace(Isa. 9:6) His "goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting" (Micah 5:2) (Patriarchs and Prophets).

The Son of God was the acknowledged Sovereign of heaven, one in power and authority with the Father. (The Great Controversy)

The world was made by Him, "and without Him was not anything made that was made". If Christ made all things, He existed before all things. The words spoken in regard to this are so decisive that no-one need be left in doubt. Christ was God essentially, and in the highest sense. He was with God from all eternity, God over all, blessed forevermore...". (Review and Herald April 5 1906.)

In another church paper she wrote:
Jehovah is the name given to Christ, "Behold, God is my salvation, I will trust, and not be afraid: for the Lord Jehovah is my strength and my song; He also is become my salvation." (Isaiah 12:2)

Heb 2:14-18 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted. (David, if Jesus used His own divine power during His life, or if He were not fully human just as we are, then He had an advantage over us and could not be our substitute.)
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
1Jo 4:2,3 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

“Christ is the ladder that Jacob saw, the base resting on the earth, and the topmost round reaching to the gate of heaven, to the very threshold of glory. If that ladder had failed by a single step of reaching the earth, we should have been lost. But Christ reaches us where we are. He took our nature and overcame, that we through taking His nature might overcome. Made "in the likeness of sinful flesh" (Romans 8:3), He lived a sinless life. Now by His Divinity He lays hold upon the throne of heaven, while by His humanity He reaches us. He bids us by faith in Him attain to the glory of the character of God. Therefore are we to be perfect, even as our "Father which is in heaven is perfect."” DA 311

“For four thousand years the race had been decreasing in physical strength, in mental power, and in moral worth; and Christ took upon Him the infirmities of degenerate humanity. Only thus could He rescue man from the lowest depths of his degradation.” DA 117 (Note that He did not take upon Himself our spiritual degeneracy.)

 

[David777]

Hello brakelite.

We might just straighten this matter out.

I said

"If Jesus was "fully man" and had a fully human consciousness,
there would be no reason to humble himself."

You said,

"However, if you cannot believe that Jesus was fully man and at the same
time fully God"

Either, Jesus was fully man with the consciousness of man or Jesus was God in human flesh,
that is man with the mind of God. Do you get my drift. You cannot have both, man is born sinful
and wicked, ie: man is born into this perversity. Jesus was not sinful and wicked, nor does it appear
that He was born into this depravity. What was the reason Jesus could resist sin and we cannot?
Was he identical to us in every way brakelite, or was Jesus truly God Almighty in human flesh.

 

[David777]

Just a further point brakelite.

I noticed that you used a quote from the newspaper that EGW was responsible for,
(Review and Herald April 5 1906.)

Also, I wish to make quotations from the same, I hope you do not mind.

 

[caprice09]

How did Jesus Turn Water into Wine?

Too much theology gets reduced to arguing about how God accomplished the miracles He did! Are we really going to go back and forth about the science behind how He walked on water, or turned water into wine; then why argue all of these matters as if it changed the point of what was accomplished. If it made perfect sense to us it wouldn't be a miracle and worthy of so much study and appreciation.

Define for me love, or the trinity, or eternal life. What is the saving power of faith? How can God judge righteousness as better than wickedness(or have and elect or chosen people) without respect of persons? How does Satan stand as adversary to God, if there is none like Him? If Christ was in any way the divine nature of God, how could He come at all, "for what fellowship has righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion has light with darkness?" But unless He did then there is no grace or love.

"Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?...Hast thou entered into the springs of the sea? or hast thou walked in the search of the depth? Have the gates of death been opened unto thee? or hast thou seen the doors of the shadow of death? Hast thou perceived the breadth of the earth? declare if thou knowest it all...Knowest thou it, because thou wast then born? or because the number of thy days is great?"

What can we know of God but that which He reveals to us? "For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ." In order for God to communicate with us He must use parables (analogies and parrallels for the purpose of gaining a frame of refrence and basis of comparison), but in that there is nothing like God and nothing worthy to be compared to Him, there is a limit to the knowledge that can be gained through these means. We cannot use the greatness of God against Him. If God can be explained so that I might fully understand it, either He is not God or I would have to be!

 

[Boanerges]

Either, Jesus was fully man with the consciousness of man or Jesus was God in human flesh, that is man with the mind of God.

Amen my friend. Jesus was God with us (Emmanuel) and I believe He came to not only fulfill the Law, pay the debt of sin we owed, but also to show how a man (though He was God He walked as a man) could fulfill God's will. He never once (though He was God) worked in His own power or did followed His own will. He continually demonstrated what total dependence (a yielded heart) on God would accomplish as He was led and empowered by the Holy Spirit. His Words were the Father's Words, His deeds the Father's works, and He only performed what He saw the Father doing. And again, only in the power of the Holy Spirit.

 

[caprice09]

Awsome quote

Brakelite said (sorry quote function didn't work, twice):
Good question. Which is why I personally believe that Jesus learned of His divinity through studying the scriptures, and finding within them a description of Himself. Aside of that He also had His mother to relate to Him the details of His birth and the various messages from angels to Her and Elisabeth, and also Simeon and Anna in the temple at His dedication. Which of course means that He also learned of His death and resurrection the same way. He lived by faith...just as we must. I am not however setting forth Christ as our example, for that would suggest we have innate power to copy...which we don't...Christ is verily our substitute...as we surrender to Him our lives we can exchange our weak sin-filled lustful lives for His perfect life of righteousness and love...what a privilege...

“Christ is the ladder that Jacob saw, the base resting on the earth, and the topmost round reaching to the gate of heaven, to the very threshold of glory. If that ladder had failed by a single step of reaching the earth, we should have been lost. But Christ reaches us where we are. He took our nature and overcame, that we through taking His nature might overcome. Made "in the likeness of sinful flesh" (Romans 8:3), He lived a sinless life. Now by His Divinity He lays hold upon the throne of heaven, while by His humanity He reaches us. He bids us by faith in Him attain to the glory of the character of God. Therefore are we to be perfect, even as our "Father which is in heaven is perfect."
End Quote.

Awsome concepts (though I obviously disagree with your views of Christ as our example, and would argue our "innate power to copy" is "substituted" and supplied by the Holy Spirit). Christ had to learn of His deity much as a Christian learns of their atonement and the nature of the Holy Spirit given to reside in them (John 13:3-17 "Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God; He riseth from supper, and laid aside his garments; and took a towel, and girded himself. After that he poureth water into a bason, and began to wash the disciples' feet, and to wipe them with the towel wherewith he was girded...Jesus answered and said unto him, What I do thou knowest not now; but thou shalt know hereafter...So after he had washed their feet, and had taken his garments, and was set down again, he said unto them, Know ye what I have done to you? Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am. If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet. For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you. Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him. If ye know these things, happy are ye if ye do them.")

For "Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him."

And concerning the vision of Jacob's ladder, it is indeed the cross of Jesus Christ which has only one rung. For "He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life." For it says Jacob "dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it." And Jesus says to Nathanael, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man."

 

[brakelite]

Awsome concepts (though I obviously disagree with your views of Christ as our example, and would argue our "innate power to copy" is "substituted" and supplied by the Holy Spirit).

I can live with that.
You are very quickly impressing me with your maturity and insight. Welcome to the forums.
Brendan

 

[brakelite]

Amen my friend. Jesus was God with us (Emmanuel) and I believe He came to not only fulfill the Law, pay the debt of sin we owed, but also to show how a man (though He was God He walked as a man) could fulfill God's will. He never once (though He was God) worked in His own power or did followed His own will. He continually demonstrated what total dependence (a yielded heart) on God would accomplish as He was led and empowered by the Holy Spirit. His Words were the Father's Words, His deeds the Father's works, and He only performed what He saw the Father doing. And again, only in the power of the Holy Spirit.

Thankyou, you have elucidated clearly what I have been feebly attempting to do.

 

[brakelite]

Too much theology gets reduced to arguing about how God accomplished the miracles He did! Are we really going to go back and forth about the science behind how He walked on water, or turned water into wine; then why argue all of these matters as if it changed the point of what was accomplished. If it made perfect sense to us it wouldn't be a miracle and worthy of so much study and appreciation.

Define for me love, or the trinity, or eternal life. What is the saving power of faith? How can God judge righteousness as better than wickedness(or have and elect or chosen people) without respect of persons? How does Satan stand as adversary to God, if there is none like Him? If Christ was in any way the divine nature of God, how could He come at all, "for what fellowship has righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion has light with darkness?" But unless He did then there is no grace or love.

"Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?...Hast thou entered into the springs of the sea? or hast thou walked in the search of the depth? Have the gates of death been opened unto thee? or hast thou seen the doors of the shadow of death? Hast thou perceived the breadth of the earth? declare if thou knowest it all...Knowest thou it, because thou wast then born? or because the number of thy days is great?"

What can we know of God but that which He reveals to us? "For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ." In order for God to communicate with us He must use parables (analogies and parrallels for the purpose of gaining a frame of refrence and basis of comparison), but in that there is nothing like God and nothing worthy to be compared to Him, there is a limit to the knowledge that can be gained through these means. We cannot use the greatness of God against Him. If God can be explained so that I might fully understand it, either He is not God or I would have to be!

E G White said something along the same lines, to the effect that we should take heed to the words of the voice in the burning bush..."take off your shoes, for the ground where you stand is holy". She said we should consider any discussion on the nature of Christ equally holy, and tread very very carefully.