Are there verses in the Bible that support?
- Thread starter ushalk
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Are you the Holy Spirit to say this is not the leading of the Holy Spirit? I do not mean any disrespect. However any time there is a false announced against the false teachings, people want to come out with don't criticize the church. Many pastors that teach are not speaking the truth. Misleading people with the word of God is ok though. I am not against going into a building for worship. The emphasis and teaching on what church is, that is the problem.
Denominations are God's permissive will, not His perfect will.
Yet, they are intrinsically linked to God's purpose and plan and used by Him.
God uses imperfect vessels, and He also uses imperfect organizations of man, including, but not limited to, the Roman Catholic church.
Individually we should walk according to the light that we have each received.
One man's light leads him to a particular denomination, another man's light leads him to reject denominations completely.
We are each accountable to the Lord alone in this matter.
Yet, they are intrinsically linked to God's purpose and plan and used by Him.
God uses imperfect vessels, and He also uses imperfect organizations of man, including, but not limited to, the Roman Catholic church.
Individually we should walk according to the light that we have each received.
One man's light leads him to a particular denomination, another man's light leads him to reject denominations completely.
We are each accountable to the Lord alone in this matter.
DHC
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Hello James.
You have an opinion on this subject that I find difficult to comprehend.
God's permissive will? Satan is included in God's so called 'permissive will' but satan
will be dealt with very harshly by God.
I would not be using the phrase 'permissive will' so loosely James. Because something
that is permissible within the domain of God's sovereignty never implies that the action
itself is acceptable in any manner.
Cults exist within this domain and the members of the cults seek to steer people away
from Christ. Some churches also perform the same function as the cults, nothing can
be gained by attending these churches. They are entirely opposed to truth and sound
doctrine, they will lead you far from Christ.
If you can please explain which particular church is the right one? I was referring to denominations not to cults.Yes God's permissive will does not imply it is right. We have to be pragmatic about it DHC. God's perfect will is the ideal, but we know things will never be ideal. Denominations are not ideal, but they are necessary...otherwise we'd all be Roman Catholic now I suppose, if it weren't for the necessity of the reformation
.
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DHC
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If you can please explain which particular church is the right one? I was referring to denominations not to cults.Yes God's permissive will does not imply it is right. We have to be pragmatic about it DHC. God's perfect will is the ideal, but we know things will never be ideal. Denominations are not ideal, but they are necessary...otherwise we'd all be Roman Catholic now I suppose, if it weren't for the necessity of the reformation
Hello James.
You posted an interesting viewpoint but some what removed from the reality of the Christ.
There cannot be a visible, doctrinal, manifestation of the church in the world. According to the
scripture the essence of the real church conforms to the following.
2 Corinthians 4:18
we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen; for the things which
are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal.
The true church has always been an invisible church, it is a spiritual entity built by the Lord
Jesus Christ. It only has ever been composed of those who love Jesus Christ.
It is composed of the chosen of Jesus Christ and is only founded on the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
This church has no worldly name and is void of worldly membership. It is powered and governed
by the Holy Spirit. All ministries and gifts of the Holy Spirit will be evident to some extent in this
church. You will know when you are in one of the true churches, because the Holy Spirit will make
this abundantly clear to you.
Rather the will of God is that you conform to Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness.
This is not an ideology but a reality in the hearts of those who believe in Jesus Christ.
Denominations have nothing to do with the kingdom of God, they are simply religious divisions
created by mankind. Jesus prayed for unity among the true believers and His will has been done.
Neither Catholicism nor any Reformation matters, only the Gospel of Jesus Christ and all whootherwise we'd all be Roman Catholic now I suppose, if it weren't for the necessity of the
reformation
conform to the teaching of the apostles. Love from a pure heart is the goal of the Christian
faith, love is the fabric which God weaves into the heart of those who love Him.
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You have seen the truth that denominations are wrong. However concerning the nature of the church, you believe in the invisible/visible division which is not supported by Scripture. This is an idea which arose as a response to many unsaved people and wordliness existing in "state churches" and denominations. Roman Catholic and Protestant alike were state churches. A person was born into these churches but many did not actually believe in Christ and were in fact unsaved. As a consequence, a natural reaction is to say that visible church = imperfect, invisible church = perfect. In the visible church is true and false Christians but in the invisible church is only true Christians. But this view is wrong for a number of reasons. Firstly, any entity in which unsaved people are members, are not true churches, either visibly or invisibly - only believers can be the church. Let us face the fact, that any church which has unsaved people in it, is not a true church. Secondly, believers on the Earth are not only spiritual, but also physical and visible.
In Scripture there are many examples which show the visible nature of church:
John 13:35 "Your love for one another will prove to the world that you are my disciples"
1 Cor 14:24 But if all of you are prophesying, and unbelievers or people who don't understand these things come into your meeting, they will be convicted of sin and judged.
Our light must shine before men (Matt 5:16). In Revelation, each church has a visible lampstand, shining its light for the world to see.
The church on earth is to be seen by the world. Jesus said his church was like a city on a hill (Matt 5:14). The future New Jerusalem will also be visible coming down from heaven.
In contrast to the idea that there cannot be a visible manifestation of the church in the world - in the time of the New Testament the church was very much visible and tangible. Church in Ephesus, Corinth etc. They were governed by the Holy Spirit operating in and through the elders appointed by the apostles.
The concept of saying here is a visible church (e.g. Roman Catholic church), and within this church is saved and unsaved, and these saved people are the "invisible true church", a "invisible true church within a false visible church" is not a biblical concept. The truth is, this saved/unsaved mixture visible church is not a church at all, and the saved people in it should separate themselves from the world, by coming out of this "church", and maintaining their own visible presence on the Earth, as they were in the New Testament.
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B-A-C
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I can't think of any verse that specifically says "be a member of the church in this building".
Having said that, the idea of temples and tabernacles is used frequently in the Bible.
The word "tabernacle" is found 112 times in the Old Testament. 16 times in the New Testament.
The word "temple" is found 125 times in the Old Testament. 109 times in the New Testament.
In fact the word "church" is used 77 times in the New Testament, sometimes as a building, sometimes as a group of believers.
Jesus taught in the temple, the apostles taught in the temple, Paul taught in the temple.
Jesus chased the money changers out of "his father's house" which is called a house of prayer. ( Matt 21:13; Mark 11:17; )
Solomon built the first real permanent temple in Jerusalem. The Jews built a portable temple of sorts (I guess like a large tent).
In Exodus 26 we first read about the place in the temple called the Holy Place and the Holy of Holies.
2 Chron chapters 3, 4, and 5 talk about Solomon building the temple. We also see the Holy place and the Holy of Holies mentioned in Hebrews chapter 9.
Hebrews talks quite a bit earthly churches being made with human hands are just a "sample" or "replica" of a temple not made with human hands. ( Heb 9:11; Heb 9:24, etc.. )
In fact it says Jesus entered into this temple not made with human hands. It seems God himself has a temple in heaven. ( Rev 7:15; Rev 11:1-2; Rev 11:19; Rev 14:15-17; Rev 15:5-8;
Rev 16:1; Rev 16:7; ) in the New Jerusalem it says there is no temple because Jesus is the temple ( Rev 21:22; )
When Jesus said he was going to rebuild the temple in 3 days, the Jews thought he meant the temple in Jerusalem. (of course he meant his body). In John 2:20; it says it took 46 years
to build that temple. There were also temples to false Gods mentioned. ( Acts 19:27; Acts 19:35; for example )
So the ideas of buildings as a church is definitely in the Bible, and it sounds like there is a temple in heaven. Even the New Jerusalem could be taken as a (very very large) building.
Aside from the physical building, as people have stated above, the church is really the body or community of believers.
In Matt 16:18; Jesus said he would build his church on the belief that he is the Son of God.
In Matt 18:17; Jesus talks about trouble makers in the church. Of course the 7 churches of Revelation are another example of a local community. It is well known where those
cities (in modern day Turkey) are even today, and many Jewish tabernacles from the 1st and 2nd centuries are still visible today.
As a group of believers, we are told do things together. Even assembling together.
Heb 10:25; not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near.
Gal 6:2; Bear one another's burdens, and thereby fulfill the law of Christ.
Jesus tells us the love one another 4 times in John alone. Hard to love "another" if you are walking alone.
John 13:35; "By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."
1 Cor 12; is mostly about the gifts of the Holy Spirit, but it also shows how the "body" of the church has many different parts and members, and each member has a unique purpose.
Col 3:12-15 is a good example or how we should act in the "body" of believers.
Jas 5:16; Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much.
In Acts 2:46; it talks about believers in the temple - being of one mind.
We were never meant to walk this walk alone. We are supposed to love one another, carry each others burdens, encourage one another, pray for one another, confess our sins to one another,
hold each other accountable, praise God together as "of one mind". Forgive one another. You can't do these things if you aren't involved with a group of believers.
I know people who watch "church" on TV. They say it's all they need. Well who are they praying for? Who is praying for them? Who is holding them accountable? Who are they confessing
their sins to? Who's burdens are they carrying? When God created the earth, 6 times he said "it is good". The first thing he said was "not good" was for man to be alone. This was in
the context of marriage, but still it isn't good for us to always be alone in this walk (even Jesus went off alone occasionally) . There is strength in numbers.
1 Cor 12:14; For the body is not one member, but many.
1 Cor 12:15; If the foot says, "Because I am not a hand, I am not a part of the body," it is not for this reason any the less a part of the body.
1 Cor 12:25; so that there may be no division in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another.
1 Cor 12:26; And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it.
1 Cor 12:27; Now you are Christ's body, and individually members of it.
Eccl 4:9; Two are better than one because they have a good return for their labor.
Eccl 4:10; For if either of them falls, the one will lift up his companion. But woe to the one who falls when there is not another to lift him up.
Eccl 4:11; Furthermore, if two lie down together they keep warm, but how can one be warm alone?
Eccl 4:12; And if one can overpower him who is alone, two can resist him. A cord of three strands is not quickly torn apart.
Matt 18:20; "For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst."
A church can be anywhere. It doesn't have to be a building, an altar can be anywhere. But a church can't be an individual, it has to be a body of believers bound together.
Words like "fellowship" appear over 10 times in the New Testament. The word "communion" comes from the word community.
Phrases like "meeting together" are all through the Bible. ( 1 Cor 11:20; Mark 2:2; Mark 6:30; Luke 8:4; Luke 22:55; Acts 1:15; etc.. )
The idea of denominations (factions) seems to be against the Bible.
1 Cor 11:18; For, in the first place, when you come together as a church, I hear that divisions exist among you; and in part I believe it.
1 Cor 11:19; For there must also be factions among you, so that those who are approved may become evident among you.
Gal 5:20; idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, ( fruits of the flesh )
1 Cor 1:11; For I have been informed concerning you, my brethren, by Chloe's people, that there are quarrels among you.
1 Cor 1:12; Now I mean this, that each one of you is saying, "I am of Paul," and "I of Apollos," and "I of Cephas," and "I of Christ."
1 Cor 1:13; Has Christ been divided? Paul was not crucified for you, was he? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?
1 Cor 3:3; for you are still fleshly. For since there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not fleshly, and are you not walking like mere men?
1 Cor 3:4; For when one says, "I am of Paul," and another, "I am of Apollos," are you not mere men?
1 Cor 3:5; What then is Apollos? And what is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, even as the Lord gave opportunity to each one.
Yet we are told not associate with immoral men who are "so called believers". ( 2 Cor 6:15; 1 Cor 5:11; )
The new testament is filled with warnings about false churches, false prophets, false Christs, false teachings and false doctrines. But it says these things will come and lead many astray.
Php 2:1; Therefore if there is any encouragement in Christ, if there is any consolation of love, if there is any fellowship of the Spirit, if any affection and compassion,
Php 2:2; make my joy complete by being of the same mind, maintaining the same love, united in spirit, intent on one purpose.
Php 2:3; Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind regard one another as more important than yourselves;
Php 2:4; do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others.
Php 2:5; Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,
Having said that, the idea of temples and tabernacles is used frequently in the Bible.
The word "tabernacle" is found 112 times in the Old Testament. 16 times in the New Testament.
The word "temple" is found 125 times in the Old Testament. 109 times in the New Testament.
In fact the word "church" is used 77 times in the New Testament, sometimes as a building, sometimes as a group of believers.
Jesus taught in the temple, the apostles taught in the temple, Paul taught in the temple.
Jesus chased the money changers out of "his father's house" which is called a house of prayer. ( Matt 21:13; Mark 11:17; )
Solomon built the first real permanent temple in Jerusalem. The Jews built a portable temple of sorts (I guess like a large tent).
In Exodus 26 we first read about the place in the temple called the Holy Place and the Holy of Holies.
2 Chron chapters 3, 4, and 5 talk about Solomon building the temple. We also see the Holy place and the Holy of Holies mentioned in Hebrews chapter 9.
Hebrews talks quite a bit earthly churches being made with human hands are just a "sample" or "replica" of a temple not made with human hands. ( Heb 9:11; Heb 9:24, etc.. )
In fact it says Jesus entered into this temple not made with human hands. It seems God himself has a temple in heaven. ( Rev 7:15; Rev 11:1-2; Rev 11:19; Rev 14:15-17; Rev 15:5-8;
Rev 16:1; Rev 16:7; ) in the New Jerusalem it says there is no temple because Jesus is the temple ( Rev 21:22; )
When Jesus said he was going to rebuild the temple in 3 days, the Jews thought he meant the temple in Jerusalem. (of course he meant his body). In John 2:20; it says it took 46 years
to build that temple. There were also temples to false Gods mentioned. ( Acts 19:27; Acts 19:35; for example )
So the ideas of buildings as a church is definitely in the Bible, and it sounds like there is a temple in heaven. Even the New Jerusalem could be taken as a (very very large) building.
Aside from the physical building, as people have stated above, the church is really the body or community of believers.
In Matt 16:18; Jesus said he would build his church on the belief that he is the Son of God.
In Matt 18:17; Jesus talks about trouble makers in the church. Of course the 7 churches of Revelation are another example of a local community. It is well known where those
cities (in modern day Turkey) are even today, and many Jewish tabernacles from the 1st and 2nd centuries are still visible today.
As a group of believers, we are told do things together. Even assembling together.
Heb 10:25; not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near.
Gal 6:2; Bear one another's burdens, and thereby fulfill the law of Christ.
Jesus tells us the love one another 4 times in John alone. Hard to love "another" if you are walking alone.
John 13:35; "By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."
1 Cor 12; is mostly about the gifts of the Holy Spirit, but it also shows how the "body" of the church has many different parts and members, and each member has a unique purpose.
Col 3:12-15 is a good example or how we should act in the "body" of believers.
Jas 5:16; Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much.
In Acts 2:46; it talks about believers in the temple - being of one mind.
We were never meant to walk this walk alone. We are supposed to love one another, carry each others burdens, encourage one another, pray for one another, confess our sins to one another,
hold each other accountable, praise God together as "of one mind". Forgive one another. You can't do these things if you aren't involved with a group of believers.
I know people who watch "church" on TV. They say it's all they need. Well who are they praying for? Who is praying for them? Who is holding them accountable? Who are they confessing
their sins to? Who's burdens are they carrying? When God created the earth, 6 times he said "it is good". The first thing he said was "not good" was for man to be alone. This was in
the context of marriage, but still it isn't good for us to always be alone in this walk (even Jesus went off alone occasionally) . There is strength in numbers.
1 Cor 12:14; For the body is not one member, but many.
1 Cor 12:15; If the foot says, "Because I am not a hand, I am not a part of the body," it is not for this reason any the less a part of the body.
1 Cor 12:25; so that there may be no division in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another.
1 Cor 12:26; And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it.
1 Cor 12:27; Now you are Christ's body, and individually members of it.
Eccl 4:9; Two are better than one because they have a good return for their labor.
Eccl 4:10; For if either of them falls, the one will lift up his companion. But woe to the one who falls when there is not another to lift him up.
Eccl 4:11; Furthermore, if two lie down together they keep warm, but how can one be warm alone?
Eccl 4:12; And if one can overpower him who is alone, two can resist him. A cord of three strands is not quickly torn apart.
Matt 18:20; "For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst."
A church can be anywhere. It doesn't have to be a building, an altar can be anywhere. But a church can't be an individual, it has to be a body of believers bound together.
Words like "fellowship" appear over 10 times in the New Testament. The word "communion" comes from the word community.
Phrases like "meeting together" are all through the Bible. ( 1 Cor 11:20; Mark 2:2; Mark 6:30; Luke 8:4; Luke 22:55; Acts 1:15; etc.. )
The idea of denominations (factions) seems to be against the Bible.
1 Cor 11:18; For, in the first place, when you come together as a church, I hear that divisions exist among you; and in part I believe it.
1 Cor 11:19; For there must also be factions among you, so that those who are approved may become evident among you.
Gal 5:20; idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, ( fruits of the flesh )
1 Cor 1:11; For I have been informed concerning you, my brethren, by Chloe's people, that there are quarrels among you.
1 Cor 1:12; Now I mean this, that each one of you is saying, "I am of Paul," and "I of Apollos," and "I of Cephas," and "I of Christ."
1 Cor 1:13; Has Christ been divided? Paul was not crucified for you, was he? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?
1 Cor 3:3; for you are still fleshly. For since there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not fleshly, and are you not walking like mere men?
1 Cor 3:4; For when one says, "I am of Paul," and another, "I am of Apollos," are you not mere men?
1 Cor 3:5; What then is Apollos? And what is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, even as the Lord gave opportunity to each one.
Yet we are told not associate with immoral men who are "so called believers". ( 2 Cor 6:15; 1 Cor 5:11; )
The new testament is filled with warnings about false churches, false prophets, false Christs, false teachings and false doctrines. But it says these things will come and lead many astray.
Php 2:1; Therefore if there is any encouragement in Christ, if there is any consolation of love, if there is any fellowship of the Spirit, if any affection and compassion,
Php 2:2; make my joy complete by being of the same mind, maintaining the same love, united in spirit, intent on one purpose.
Php 2:3; Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind regard one another as more important than yourselves;
Php 2:4; do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others.
Php 2:5; Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,
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DHC
Member
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Hello James.
Good response to the previous post and I do admit you have made some very strong points.
Nevertheless James, there does appear to be a weakness within the thread of your argument.
Denominations are prohibited, verbotten.
1 Corinthians 1
10 Now I exhort you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all agree and
that there be no divisions among you..
Are all churches that claim to be Christian churches really authentic churches of Christ?
This is the question that we are dealing with, is the visible representative of the invisible.
Let's consult the scripture and examine a church to see if the above is true.
Galatians 5
4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen
from grace.
There should be no doubt that the Galatian church was at the very least a borderline church.
If the Galatian church persisted with the addition of the law to the Gospel they had 'fallen from
Grace'. So the visible church in the region of Galatia was at the time of Paul's letter not a true
church of Christ in any sense. The Galatian church was rather a church that needed to repent
for it had been bewitched by an alternative Gospel.
So in this particular case, it must hold true that the visible church was not a church of Christ.
It is irrevelant whether the Galatian church responded to the apostle Paul's warning. For at the
time Paul wrote this letter, the visible Galatian church was definitely not a true church.
So we are forced to conclude James, that any church will only ever be a true church. If and only
if the specific church is currently aligned with the apostle's teaching. Further it should be obvious
from Paul's letter to the Galatians, that any church may be mislead and church history abounds
with the failed, visible churches.
Thus James, you should have no further objection to the claim that any visible church can never
represent a true church. For the status of the church is temporal and conditional on obedience
to the apostles teaching. The visible perspective is useless in the assessment of the overall
standing of the church as a whole before the Lord.
Firstly, salvation is administered at a personal level, a person must believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Secondly, a person must also have received the Holy Spirit. Thirdly, the person must follow the
apostle's teaching. Organizational salvation is not within the pages of the scripture, membership
of a church body does not mean salvation.
Membership in the church is strongly encouraged but membership does not imply salvation.
An adherent of the Galatian church is never saved on the basis of their membership.
To call the Galatian church, the one and only true church of God would be erroneous.
In the Galatian church it was not their works that mattered, but who they listened to and
who they followed.
This is primarily a personal instruction James.
Yes James that is true but each of the seven churches were in error and needed to repent.
The church of Sardis was a dead church, and the church at Ephesus had lost it's first love.
Were the lamp stands removed from these visible churches?
This instruction is once again a personal instruction.
It is not the concept that is important but the reality that a church cannot save anyone.
Only the Gospel of Jesus Christ carries the power to save and consequently the Gospel
must be believed at the primary level. This is the teaching of the apostles and this teaching
is always the primary teaching within the walls of any Christian institution.
The Catholic Church is a physical entity composed of adherents to the Catholic agenda.
The observable Catholic church is the church you have made reference to James.
But you have a vexing problem to deal with in using the Catholic church as an example.
The Catholic church is a multi denominational structure. There are thousands of
subset denominations within the Catholic membership. This is a contradiction of Paul's
instruction that there be no divisions. 'I am of Thomas', 'I am of Mary', e.t.c, this is
not in keeping with the Biblical teaching. Why is your church a contradiction of the
apostles instruction?
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Hello DHC.
The way I see it, you are conditioned to believe that all the visible denominations are churches, and yet false, and the true church is something invisible and hidden, because you have never seen or known of a visible true church. However, what was the church in Ephesus, Corinth, Jersualem? Were they true churches? Yes. Were they visible? Yes. So a visible true church is possible, if we take the Bible definition as our standard of what is a church. According to the Bible, a church is simply the plurality of believers meeting in a specified location (Corinth, Rome, Ephesus etc). This is what a church is. Now whether or not that church obeys Christ or not, is a separate matter, and has no bearing on whether or not the particular assembly is a church or not. What it affects is how much light the church produces. Some produce much light and others produce little. If they produce no light, Christ will take away their lampstand. If there is an assembly of believers, in a particular location, and these believers follow the Bible, which reveals the apostles teachings, how is that not a true visible church?
There is no scriptural basis to say that the Galatian churches were not true churches (actually, Galatia was a province, and there were a number of churches in that province). Scripture says that nowhere. In fact, in his letter Paul calls these Galatians "brethren", indicating they were true believers and therefore a true church. A church is not defined by its obedience to Christ or the apostles. This is proven by the book of Revelation where Jesus addresses 7 churches, each with their own particular issues, some even lost their first love for the Lord, yet were still considered churches.
Please consider the absurdity of your invisible/visible statements, from a common sense point of view. If church is the people, then according to your view, only the invisible part of these people matter. But we are not ghosts DHC, we have flesh and blood. If I meet in a park for example, with 10 believers, and we follow the Bible, and take no other name than the name of Christ and the location in which we dwell, then aren't we a true visible church? Then if this church disobeys the Bible, then this church becomes a true visible church which has fallen. It does not lose its identity as a true church, any more than you or I, when we sin, lose our identity as Christians.
Yes salvation is a personal experience but not to the exclusion of the other believers. Remember that Jesus prayed in John 17:21 that they may be one. Remember that salvation is also to be grafted into the vine (Christ) and be joined to all the other believers (branches). Remember what happens to a branch that is not in the vine or connected to other branches, it dries up and dies. Salvation is also to be a member of Christ's body, connected to each other. Who does the preaching/teaching/evangelism? Churches. Who brought the gospel to your country? Churches. Who disciples and trains the believers so they may grow in Christ? Churches. Who holds communion and the Lord's supper? Churches. According to the Bible it is impossible to be a believer and not belong to a church. The idea of being a believer and yet not being a member of a church only applies to false churches, or false believers. I hope you realize DHC, that in the Bible the only people who didn't belong to a church, were practising sinners (fornicators, idol worshippers, liars, homosexuals, and the like) and unbelievers. Furthermore, Heb 10:25 says we should not forsake meeting together with other believers. Ideally, something we do because we want to, not because we have to. Actually I think I will post a thread sometime on how to love church.
Referring to Matt 5:14, not true again. In revelation each church has only one lampstand, not many. Jesus referring to a city implies the collected body of believers in a location, and may even imply the future New Jerusalem which is the source of light to the whole earth.
I used the Roman Catholic as an example of a visible yet false church. According to your view, the visible nature of this church is false, yet the invisible nature of the true believers in this church is true. However according to the Bible, a true church is both visible and invisible. The true church is not an organization (like the Roman Catholic church), it is a living thing. Neither is the true church hidden within a false church or invisible. BTW RC is a false church because it is a man-made organization which bears the name of a particular empire, not a locality in which believers dwell (except Rome, of course). Re: a church cannot save.. a church can save many people by preaching the gospel. Many Christians have been saved by the efforts of the churches. And this comes back to my original point - denominational churches have some use, God uses them. Jesus did not particularly care if others did not belong to his group, he told his disciples to not forbid them, and Paul did not care even about motives, as long as the gospel was preached. God has used the Roman Catholic church to spread the gospel through the whole earth. In many places, even before the evangelicals arrived, there was already a Catholic church, and the people there already knew something about Jesus.
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My dear brothers and sisters. I did not start this for the sake of argument. Rather for the sake of American Christians realizing that we are all bonded by Christ. It is not a building or denomination that has saved us or makes us a member of the body of Christ. The buildings are synagogues or temples and often not where people find fellowship with Christ. The church are those that have accepted Christ as their Lord and Savior. We do not even do half the things that Paul wrote to us about concerning the truth of the fellowship we need. I am leaving it at that for now.
The New Testament refers to the physical church as the Church of God, as many as 10 times I believe.
that is what I believe it should be called.
today we have the church of immaculate conception, the church of the apostles by individual names, the church of the sacred hearts, the holy rosary church,
the list goes on and on by the thousands.
wouldn't it be nice to be unified under one name-the one the Bible called " The Church of God " - Acts 20:28
that is what I believe it should be called.
today we have the church of immaculate conception, the church of the apostles by individual names, the church of the sacred hearts, the holy rosary church,
the list goes on and on by the thousands.
wouldn't it be nice to be unified under one name-the one the Bible called " The Church of God " - Acts 20:28
the church of God are all of us that have accepted Christ as their lord and savior. there is not one verse that refers church to a building or a denomination. the church is the body of Christ. the physical form is our bodies.
I understand the church is not a building
but the Biblical name of the true church is " The Church of God "
God names things in the Bible and He gave this name to us, His collective group of believers.
One of the identifying " signs " of the true church is that it must bear God's name.
So many groups are named after towns or countries even. Presbyterians are named after their form of government by elders or " presbyters "
Baptists are named after one doctrine-baptism.
And the list goes on.
God's name should always be attached to the true followers of the true church
we should always give this reverence and recognition to the body of Christ -the Church of God.
The Apostles did and we should observe this as well.
God built the Church and it was named after Him-that honor should be fundamental understanding to the people today.
I can agree with this if the name that we are bearing is Jesus Christ. that is the only name under heaven which we are saved by. ( Acts 4:12)
Jesus is God. - John 20:28 - here Jesus is addressed as God
The church (those in Christ ) of God (the Father and the Son)
Jesus said " the Father and I are one "
church of Christ is used as well but they are one and the same
scripture is inspired and the name of the church is applied by that inspiration
I agree the name of the church, if it had a name, is none other than Jesus Christ.
So we can start a church called "the Church of Jesus Christ", right? , or how about "the church of Jesus Christ only"
Wrong.
According to 1 Cor 1:12, Christians are just believers in Christ and we are not to identify ourselves by any name at all, even the name of Christ.
In God's eyes, the believers who separate themselves as "Jesus only" or "non-denominational" are just as guilty of sectarianism and a party spirit as the ones who bear the name of a denomination. How many times do seemingly well-meaning believers say "I am not going to fellowship with those Christians over there etc etc, I follow Jesus only". It doesn't matter what name we give ourselves, whether Catholic, Lutheran, or "Jesus Christ", the issue is the sectarian attitude and carnal flesh which causes us to see ourselves as better than (aka self-righteousness) other believers different to ourselves and seeing ourselves as "special", or others as unworthy for fellowship, despite them receiving the same Holy Spirit that we have received.
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