Are We Saved By Grace Alone or Does It Include Man's Works

[Fragrant Grace]

We can all rejoice and let this over debated matter rest.......

Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ
Galatians 2:16

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:8

Saved by grace alone
This is all my plea
Jesus died for all mankind
Jesus died for me*

Justified freely by His grace
Romans 3:24


*P Doddridge

 

[lawrenceb]

"Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God." (Mat 22:29)

Here are some thoughts concerning the Scripture-bare and false grace doctrine (aka the "gospel of greasy grace"). Please feel free to contribute your own Scripturally-based thoughts.

"Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;" (Matt. 10:16, 17). Now first of all, it says 'beware of men;' that's the first thing you need to recognize. God wants you to be aware of his Spirit and follow his word. You've got to realize that it is men who will deceive you. That's why it is so important for me to show you The Word. I should come with references -- not references from people, but references from the Word of God.

Continuing with Matthew 10:18 - "And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles." Now I must tell you, saints of God, there is a reason why our persecution begins in this succession, because it takes a saint to know a saint. That's why the greatest danger that is coming upon the church is going to come from within the church. That's why I am appalled at the number of people that are literally violent over their particular doctrines, their particular areas of belief, rather than embracing what The Word clearly says and staying with what the simple Truth of the Gospel is. Instead, they have these particular things that they are just vehemently attached to. And I want to tell you something, saints of God, one of those doctrines is that grace covers sin.

How many here were taught in church, from the pulpit, that grace covers sin? Can I tell you something? There is no Scripture in the Bible that tells us that grace covers sin; in fact, it's an abominable thought. Grace does not cover sin -- BLOOD DOES. When you have sinned, you have fallen from grace. Now you don't need grace any more -- you need blood, ok? Once you've sinned, you have already stepped outside of grace. Grace was for BEFORE you sinned, so that you would have the strength to endure and overcome that which would have taken you INTO sin. Grace is the power of God to make up for what you lack. So if you normally sin in a certain area, and you call upon the grace of God, he supplies strength where you are weak, and you overcome, amen? Hebrews 4:16 - "Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need." Now when you go ahead and vacate the grace of God and go ahead and sin, you don't need grace any more, now you need blood. Thank you, Jesus, for the blood of the Lamb, but saints of God, we've got to stop making mistakes and begin to walk upright before our God, amen? We can't live that way and trample on the grace of Almighty God.

Some of you have been taught that grace began as a 'dispensation,' like God began to become a graceful God about 2000 years ago. Hebrews 13:8, 9 - "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. Be not carried about with divers [motley; various in character] and strange doctrines..." The word "grace" means "unmerited favor." Now, exactly what did Adam do to deserve the rulership in the Garden? Sounds like "unmerited favor" to me. What did Lucifer do to deserve his tabrets to be built right into his body from the day he was created? Sounds like "grace" to me. Saints of God, we need to recognize that grace has been around since the beginning. God has always been a God of grace; he didn't just think up the idea 2000 years ago. He always wants to supply strength where there is weakness, amen? Saints of God, we cannot just continue to walk any ole way we want and just claim grace, because grace is for BEFORE you sin, and not after.

“...by grace are ye saved through faith” = Grace is God’s end of the deal; faith is our end of the deal. And faith is not a work; it is a fruit of the Spirit:

Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, [etc. etc.]... But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. (Gal. 5:19-23).

 

[Curtis]

"Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God." (Mat 22:29)

Here are some thoughts concerning the Scripture-bare and false grace doctrine (aka the "gospel of greasy grace"). Please feel free to contribute your own Scripturally-based thoughts.

"Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;" (Matt. 10:16, 17). Now first of all, it says 'beware of men;' that's the first thing you need to recognize. God wants you to be aware of his Spirit and follow his word. You've got to realize that it is men who will deceive you. That's why it is so important for me to show you The Word. I should come with references -- not references from people, but references from the Word of God.

Continuing with Matthew 10:18 - "And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles." Now I must tell you, saints of God, there is a reason why our persecution begins in this succession, because it takes a saint to know a saint. That's why the greatest danger that is coming upon the church is going to come from within the church. That's why I am appalled at the number of people that are literally violent over their particular doctrines, their particular areas of belief, rather than embracing what The Word clearly says and staying with what the simple Truth of the Gospel is. Instead, they have these particular things that they are just vehemently attached to. And I want to tell you something, saints of God, one of those doctrines is that grace covers sin.

How many here were taught in church, from the pulpit, that grace covers sin? Can I tell you something? There is no Scripture in the Bible that tells us that grace covers sin; in fact, it's an abominable thought. Grace does not cover sin -- BLOOD DOES. When you have sinned, you have fallen from grace. Now you don't need grace any more -- you need blood, ok? Once you've sinned, you have already stepped outside of grace. Grace was for BEFORE you sinned, so that you would have the strength to endure and overcome that which would have taken you INTO sin. Grace is the power of God to make up for what you lack. So if you normally sin in a certain area, and you call upon the grace of God, he supplies strength where you are weak, and you overcome, amen? Hebrews 4:16 - "Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need." Now when you go ahead and vacate the grace of God and go ahead and sin, you don't need grace any more, now you need blood. Thank you, Jesus, for the blood of the Lamb, but saints of God, we've got to stop making mistakes and begin to walk upright before our God, amen? We can't live that way and trample on the grace of Almighty God.

Some of you have been taught that grace began as a 'dispensation,' like God began to become a graceful God about 2000 years ago. Hebrews 13:8, 9 - "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. Be not carried about with divers [motley; various in character] and strange doctrines..." The word "grace" means "unmerited favor." Now, exactly what did Adam do to deserve the rulership in the Garden? Sounds like "unmerited favor" to me. What did Lucifer do to deserve his tabrets to be built right into his body from the day he was created? Sounds like "grace" to me. Saints of God, we need to recognize that grace has been around since the beginning. God has always been a God of grace; he didn't just think up the idea 2000 years ago. He always wants to supply strength where there is weakness, amen? Saints of God, we cannot just continue to walk any ole way we want and just claim grace, because grace is for BEFORE you sin, and not after.

“...by grace are ye saved through faith” = Grace is God’s end of the deal; faith is our end of the deal. And faith is not a work; it is a fruit of the Spirit:

Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, [etc. etc.]... But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. (Gal. 5:19-23).

If have a question. If the "faith" you are talking about is the fruit of the Spirit, how can a person without the Spirit have faith to access grace by which we are saved?

 

[RJ]

how can a person without the Spirit have faith to access grace by which we are saved?

We access it because initially it comes from God as another gift, grace first, then faith!
Romans 12:3 For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the faith God has distributed to each of you.

 

[Curtis]

We access it because initially it comes from God as another gift, grace first, then faith!
Romans 12:3 For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the faith God has distributed to each of you.

How does God give faith? Is it not by hearing the Word of God? How can a person get saved unless they first hear the Gospel, which gives faith to believe the message?

Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

 

[Byfaith]

We access it because initially it comes from God as another gift, grace first, then faith!
Romans 12:3 For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the faith God has distributed to each of you.

It's not possible to "Receive" Grace first.

How does God give faith? Is it not by hearing the Word of God? How can a person get saved unless they first hear the Gospel, which gives faith to believe the message?

2Ti_1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
Tit_3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Pretty clear Grace is already there and no work would obtain that but through faith. Now Jesus talked about tree's that don't bare fruit afterward, that would be another topic.

 

[RJ]

It's not possible to "Receive" Grace first.

That is silly! What existed first, your faith or God? God existed or was before your faith; God existed first, then his grace abound first!

 

[RJ]

It's not possible to "Receive" Grace first.

You say this and then you say:

2Ti_1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

 

[Byfaith]

That is silly! What existed first, your faith or God? God existed or was before your faith; God existed first, then his grace abound first!

What did I say, read it again. What I said is correct.

You can't receive Grace without knowing about it first. Faith comes by hearing and by hearing the Word of God.

I never said Grace was not there before faith, I said you can't receive something you have not heard. Your the one that said Grace is a gift first. I never said your wrong, I just said it's not possible to get the gift without hearing first.

Read carefully!!!!

Blessing to you Brother.

 

[RJ]

What did I say, read it again. What I said is correct.

You can't receive Grace without knowing about it first. Faith comes by hearing and by hearing the Word of God.

I never said Grace was not there before faith, I said you can't receive something you have not heard. Your the one that said Grace is a gift first. I never said your wrong, I just said it's not possible to get the gift without hearing first.

Read carefully!!!!

Blessing to you Brother.

With all love, I am done...bye!

 

[Byfaith]

You say this and then you say:

Right, grace is there, I said to Receive Grace, you must hear first. Faith only comes by hearing being saved Through faith, by the grace.

You Ok RJ?

 

[RJ]

Right, grace is there, I said to Receive Grace, you must hear first. Faith only comes by hearing being saved Through faith, by the grace.

You Ok RJ?

 

[Curtis]

2Ti_1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
Tit_3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Pretty clear Grace is already there and no work would obtain that but through faith. Now Jesus talked about tree's that don't bare fruit afterward, that would be another topic.

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to ALL men,

Salvation is strictly by grace alone, but, if we want to "access" our salvation which was given to us by "grace" requires "faith". No body is save by faith, because faith has works connected to it.

Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Faith only allows us to access the grace by which we are saved, as it does not save us.

2 Timothy 1:9 is talking about God's foreknowledge of whom he knew in advance who would receive Jesus Christ as their savior before the world began. But, those whom God
foreknew still have to hear the Gospel and accept it just like every body else.

 

[Byfaith]

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to ALL men,

Salvation is strictly by grace alone, but, if we want to "access" our salvation which was given to us by "grace" requires "faith". No body is save by faith, because faith has works connected to it.

Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Faith only allows us to access the grace by which we are saved, as it does not save us.

2 Timothy 1:9 is talking about God's foreknowledge of whom he knew in advance who would receive Jesus Christ as their savior before the world began. But, those whom God
foreknew still have to hear the Gospel and accept it just like every body else.

Right, it can get a bit complex for some who have not got it sorted. In contrast I saw James mentioned in the thread.

What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
(Jas 2:14)

Faith without corresponding action is dead, James is most likely talking about works not unto justification, but works to justify faith one claims. Faith will come up and claim the free grace to save as Jesus being Lord.

Now God foreknew those who would be saved, I read that a bit different and not a fan of Election or foreknowledge doctrines. Of course, Election is God picking and choosing who will have the faith given to be saved by God's Choice and not man responding to what he has heard. Some call it Calvinism.

Now if God picks, then it's not Grace available but to those who it's given.

If it's foreknowledge, it still reverts back to election anyway.

I am with you on the grace part though, good stuff.

blessings.

 

[Curtis]

Right, it can get a bit complex for some who have not got it sorted. In contrast I saw James mentioned in the thread.

What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
(Jas 2:14)

Faith without corresponding action is dead, James is most likely talking about works not unto justification, but works to justify faith one claims. Faith will come up and claim the free grace to save as Jesus being Lord.

Now God foreknew those who would be saved, I read that a bit different and not a fan of Election or foreknowledge doctrines. Of course, Election is God picking and choosing who will have the faith given to be saved by God's Choice and not man responding to what he has heard. Some call it Calvinism.

Now if God picks, then it's not Grace available but to those who it's given.

If it's foreknowledge, it still reverts back to election anyway.

I am with you on the grace part though, good stuff.

blessings.

Election, predestination according to God's foreknowledge has always been a difficult thing to understand by most Christians. I don't know why as it is one the simplest things to understand.
All men born on planet earth have a free will choice to accept or deny God's salvation that he gives freely to who ever wants it. The hard part is in understanding how the Lord already knows all of our choices before the foundation of the world. Why this is hard to comprehend is because we are so use to living in a time based world where every thing flows in chronological order, and we don't know whats going to happen until it happens. Not so with God, he knows the end from the beginning. We find it hard to comprehend how a spiritual being can have such knowledge before events happen. This is only hard to understand with the "carnal" mind, but it is easy to understand with the spiritual mind within man's heart.

 

[Byfaith]

Election, predestination according to God's foreknowledge has always been a difficult thing to understand by most Christians. I don't know why as it is one the simplest things to understand.
All men born on planet earth have a free will choice to accept or deny God's salvation that he gives freely to who ever wants it. The hard part is in understanding how the Lord already knows all of our choices before the foundation of the world. Why this is hard to comprehend is because we are so use to living in a time based world where every thing flows in chronological order, and we don't know whats going to happen until it happens. Not so with God, he knows the end from the beginning. We find it hard to comprehend how a spiritual being can have such knowledge before events happen. This is only hard to understand with the "carnal" mind, but it is easy to understand with the spiritual mind within man's heart.

I understand Curtis. Are you interested in this? As I said, I am not a fan of Election or Foreknowledge. There is a reason I am not. We can discuss it if you want. Also, God knows the end from the beginning is misquoting Isiah. That is actually an election scripture, not a foreknowledge scripture. God declares the End from the beginning, His counsel will stand.
There is a big difference between God speaking and the Word not returning void, as opposed to God just knows.

Anyway, thank you for sharing. Be blessed Brother.

 

[RJ]

alvation is strictly by grace alone, but, if we want to "access" our salvation which was given to us by "grace" requires "faith". No body is save by faith, because faith has works connected to it.

Yes, but I don't believe the initial faith that God gave you is the same thing!
Romans 12:3 For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the faith God has distributed to each of you.

 

[WaterRock]

If not mistaken, Romans 12:3 states "measure of faith".

If one considers faith to be merely believing, then that would be the whole measure of faith and all men have faith since all men believe; if you think that is wrong feel free to tell me why you believe it is wrong. However, while all men believe, not all men have faith thus believing is merely a measure [a part of] of faith, but in and of itself is not faith. Thus it is written in 2 Thess 3:2, "And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith."

Faith is the act of obtaining truth.[1 Cor 13:7] Thus one has to believe all things. [Mark 9:23] Not that all things are true but if one summarily dismisses something as false without evidence then they won't believe the truth with evidence. [ Rom 10:14] Such as written in John 7:51, Doth our law judge any man, before it hear him, and know what he doeth? I would suggest that would hold true for judgment in all matters of fact.

Thus, one should should search out the matter, make inquiry. [Deut 13:14]
Examine the evidence.[1 Cor 11:28]
Test the evidence [1 John 4:1 ]
Prove all things. [1 Thess 5:21]

Then you can "But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: " 1 Peter 3:15

Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things. 1 Cor 13:7
Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth. Mark 9:23
How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard?Rom 10:14
Then shalt thou inquire, and make search, and ask diligently; and, behold, if it be truth, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought among you; Deut 13:14
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.1 John 4:1
But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. 1 Cor 11:28
Prove all things; hold fast that which is good..1 Thess 5:21

 

[Peter]

We are saved by Grace alone, but by how much depends on our good works.

 

[RJ]

We are saved by Grace alone, but by how much depends on our good works.

We are saved by Grace alone

That I agree with!

but by how much depends on our good works.

Sorry, but this makes no sense....It is not your works but that of Jesus work's through you and saved is saved. You say saved by Grace and then you say the level of which is dependent on the works you do, this is a conflict in terms.