Are You Saved By Grace or Faith Alone

[Fragrant Grace]

@norapture

It would appear that johnlove uses the Jerusalem Bible, which is a catholic translation

 

[Spockrates]

I have already done so regarding this thread with Socrates and I apologize to everyone!

All is forgiven.

 

[Spockrates]

Proverbs 26:4-14 (NASB)
4 Do not answer a fool according to his folly,
Or you will also be like him.

ill be just like him.
Answer a fool according to his folly,
or he will be wise in his own eyes.

(Proverbs 26:5)

Guess there is a risk no matter what you do to help a fool?

 

[amadeus2]

Paul describes two different types of Christians in the following scripture. He first describes what has been from my experience, the majority of Christians. Infants in Christ.


Next he explains the infants in Christ are no yet spiritual. That will make the infants in Christ, Spiritual Christians if they became spiritual, is that not right?


(1 Corinthians 3:1-3) “Brothers, I myself was unable to speak to you as people of the Spirit; I treated you as sensual men, still infants in Christ. What I fed you with was milk, not solid food, for you were not ready for it; and indeed, you are still not ready for it since you are still unspiritual. Isn’t that obvious from all the jealousy and wrangling that there is among you, from the way that you go on behaving like ordinary people.

So then there are those still on milk and there are those on meat, plus all of those lying somewhere in between. Does someone on milk still sin. Does anyone else who has not eaten all of the necessary meat and overcome all of the opposition? When we follow our old ways then we are carnal, but when we follow the new Way, then we are spiritual? Remember that James was writing to believers when he was warning about the double minded.

 

[amadeus2]

A Child of God is a person who after he or she has been given the Holy Spirit, listen and obeys the Holy Spirit tells him or her.


By obeying through the grace the Holy Spirit give him or her, they then are living all of God’s Commandments, and that mean they no longer sin.


(1 John 3:9-10) “No one who is a child of God sins because God's seed remains in him. Nor can he sin, because he is a child of God. This is what distinguishes the children of God from the children of the devil: whoever does not live uprightly and does not love his brother is not from God.”

So then someone who doesn't always obey through the grace given is not always a child of God or is an immature child of God or is what? Remember again to whom James wrote with regard to double mindedness.

 

[amadeus2]

I have seen Jesus, and I know him.

So then you are past the "through a glass darkly and to the "face to face"". This is good, but remember also these words from Jesus:

"But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more." Luke 12:48

And also remember the dangers of the world mentioned here:

"For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever." I John 2:16-17

Until those things are dead in our world we may still choose to follow the rather than the Holy Spirit"

It seems that God did not take away a Child of God’s free will. But it seems in John’s mind that he could not visualize anyone who had been given the knowledge of the truth, deliberately committing a sin.

Or was John simply speaking of the goal that God has set before us? Some have not yet come to the "face to face" goal, but God is not finished with all of us. All of us have a vision, even if it is at the moment somewhat blurred. But then come the window cleaners ready to apply more eye salve:

"Where there is no vision, the people perish..." Prov 29:18

"I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see." Rev 3:18

 

[RJ]

So then you are past the "through a glass darkly and to the "face to face"". This is good, but remember also these words from Jesus:

This is not possible for the mortal man for God told Moses that no man could look him face to face and live. This "face to face" is the for the Spiritual Man after the imperfection has gone and the perfection has come! Aside from that, what comes with "face to face" is knowing God as well as he knows you. If you are still alive, you haven't quite made it there yet!

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

If we have an issue with our brother then we need to remember that we call him(God has male and female sons) brother because
the Father drew him to Jesus to begin with.When we judge a brother we may be insinuating that God abandon's work that he started.

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings,

@Spockrates - please forgive my 'late' reply - had gone walkabout.

Mr. Bear. Thanks for the scripture. Please explain how it ties into our discussion.

Greetings,
I am saved by grace and it is only because of His Shed Blood

Bless you ....><>

*please all read this from Revelation 5;

1And I saw in the right hand of Him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? 3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.

4 And I wept much,

because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. 5 And one of the elders saith unto me,
Weep not:
behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
6 And I beheld,
and, lo,
in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts,
and in the midst of the elders,

stood a Lamb as it had been slain,

having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. 7 And He came and took the book out of the right hand of Him that sat upon the throne. 8 And when He had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
9 And they sung a new song, saying,
Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for Thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by Thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
11 And I beheld,
and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders:
and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;

12 Saying with a loud voice,
Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing. 13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto Him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever. 14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped Him that liveth for ever and ever.

I have boldened some key parts in the Scripture (PLEASE read the full quote above from me) yet do not wish to ignore the whole.
May I ask, in response and in order to answer, if I may(?), Are you saved by grace or faith alone or by the Blood of the Lamb?
What have I done or can I do? What has the One Who Alone is Worthy done that I can not do, regardless of what I do and because I could do nothing?
for Thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by Thy blood
POWERFUL - POWER FULL.
So by grace or faith alone? or His Blood?
And I wept much,
because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb,
the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
And they sung a new song,
And I beheld,
and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders:
and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands
And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped Him that liveth for ever and ever.
And I wept much,
And one of the elders saith unto me,
Weep not:

Bless you ....><>

 

[B-A-C]

Are you saved by grace or faith alone or by the Blood of the Lamb?
What have I done or can I do? What has the One Who Alone is Worthy done that I can not do, regardless of what I do and because I could do nothing?
for Thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by Thy blood
POWERFUL - POWER FULL.
So by grace or faith alone? or His Blood?

Grace - an undeserved or unmerited gift. So OK Jesus gave us grace... He gave us a gift.
What is the gift? His blood paid the penalty for our sins. It seems to me that the grace and the blood are the same thing.

 

[Spockrates]

Greetings,

@Spockrates - please forgive my 'late' reply - had gone walkabout.

I have boldened some key parts in the Scripture (PLEASE read the full quote above from me) yet do not wish to ignore the whole.
May I ask, in response and in order to answer, if I may(?), Are you saved by grace or faith alone or by the Blood of the Lamb?
What have I done or can I do? What has the One Who Alone is Worthy done that I can not do, regardless of what I do and because I could do nothing?
for Thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by Thy blood
POWERFUL - POWER FULL.
So by grace or faith alone? or His Blood?
And I wept much,
because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb,
the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
And they sung a new song,
And I beheld,
and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders:
and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands
And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped Him that liveth for ever and ever.
And I wept much,
And one of the elders saith unto me,
Weep not:

Bless you ....><>

Sorry for my late reply, too. In answer to your question, I would say God's grace saves me from hell--though I'm not certain what grace is, as different Christians define it different ways. I would say the blood of the Lamb is God's means of giving such grace that saves me--though this is a symbol of who Jesus is and the significance of his death. I would say that faith is a condition I must meet to receive this grace, but faith alone is not enough to receive it, as I've discovered in the other discussion.

 

[amadeus2]

This is not possible for the mortal man for God told Moses that no man could look him face to face and live. This "face to face" is the for the Spiritual Man after the imperfection has gone and the perfection has come! Aside from that, what comes with "face to face" is knowing God as well as he knows you. If you are still alive, you haven't quite made it there yet!

I believe that you have this somewhat in reverse. If you are still dead, (in any measure dead), you haven't quite made it yet. Jesus didn't come to bring death. Death was already here and in control:

"...I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly." John 10:10

And yet again:

"And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die." John 11:26

Too many people, it seems to me, have a reverse type of faith and as a result hinder their own growth in the Life which Jesus is more than willing to provide.

When God spoke to Moses, He advised that no man could look on his face and live. God was speaking of dead men. Men with real Life is another matter, is it not?

Did Jesus come to give us vision after the body returns to dust? Not so late as that! Without a vision the people of God will die, will be dead, but do we have (or are supposed to have) a vision even if somewhat darkened? Is that vision not improving? If it isn't, why isn't it? Did Jesus come for naught?

Did Jesus plan to overcome the world in us after the body returns to dust? I think not. If our faith is in an in the physical grave faith, isn't that a reverse or negative faith?

"According to your faith be it unto you."

 

[RJ]

I believe that you have this somewhat in reverse. If you are still dead, (in any measure dead), you haven't quite made it yet. Jesus didn't come to bring death. Death was already here and in control:

I am not sure what you are referring to Brother, for sure I sad nothing about "being still dead", as you say ? But, I will take it, it is my statement : "If you are still alive, you haven't quite made it there yet!"
If I am right, I politely say that I don't have it reversed, but your understanding of what I said is reversed:

• No human can look God in the face and live.
• He told Moses as such when he wouldn't even allow Moses to look at him in the face.
• This human imperfection aspect is not any different for even the "Born Again" Christian. Even a Christian can not look God "Face to Face". Being a true Christian doesn't change this, you are still in the flesh and not yet in your resurrected body, in other words: " you are still alive, you haven't quite made it there yet!"..
  
• You are still alive physically, but because you are also alive spiritually, when you die your physical death, you will finally achieve spiritual and bodily ( resurrected) perfection and as according to 1 Corinthians 13: 12-13 12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly); but then we will see face to face. Now I know only in part; then I will know fully, even as I have been fully known.... You will see God face to face because you perfected for God's realm...remember he is spirit and we must worship him in spirit and truth.
  
• You amadeus2, are, thought spiritually alive, you are currently alive in the human, physical body state also. You can't physically see God face to face... "you haven't quite made it there yet!"

 

[Aenon]

It is pretty simple, but many just can't see it for some reason!

• Grace is Gods' gift.
• Faith is another gift from God.
• Faith is by God's Grace alone.
• God's Grace existed before we did or our Faith.
• We are saved by Gods' Grace Alone.

1) Faith with without works is dead.
2) Nowhere in scripture does it say we are saved by faith "alone."

 

[RJ]

) Faith with without works is dead.

Sure, but works doesn't precede faith. Works follows faith and is proof that you have received God's gift, otherwise your faith must be dead or non-existent in the first place.

2) Nowhere in scripture does it say we are saved by faith "alone."

• Ephesians 2: 8 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith....please show me any scripture that says otherwise!
• Romans 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,...this is after salvation...please show me scripture that says otherwise.

 

[Aenon]

• Ephesians 2: 8 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith....please show me any scripture that says otherwise!
• Romans 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,...this is after salvation...please show me scripture that says otherwise.

Still haven't proved me wrong. There is no "ALONE" anywhere in those verses.

 

[RJ]

Still haven't proved me wrong. There is no "ALONE" anywhere in those verses.

• So, please provide scripture that salvation is by something else, and what do you say that salvation comes by?

 

[Aenon]

• So, please provide scripture that salvation is by something else, and what do you say that salvation comes by?

I am sure my understanding of Salvation is very different from yours, as my understanding doesn't come from the western church. I don't believe Salvation is a one-time event. I believe what the Eastern Orthodox (and subsequently, the Church fathers) believe, that Salvation is a process. I wouldn't use the phrase, "I'm saved," I would say, "I'm on the path/way to salvation."

 

[RJ]

I am sure my understanding of Salvation is very different from yours, as my understanding doesn't come from the western church. I don't believe Salvation is a one-time event. I believe what the Eastern Orthodox (and subsequently, the Church fathers) believe, that Salvation is a process. I wouldn't use the term "I'm saved," I would say, "I'm on the path/way to salvation."

This is a Talk Jesus site, do you believe in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior?

 

[Aenon]

This is a Talk Jesus site, do you believe in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior?

Obviously