Are You Saved By Grace or Faith Alone

[Spockrates]

• So, please provide scripture that salvation is by something else, and what do you say that salvation comes by?

RJ:

How about this one?

Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out...

(Acts 3:19)

I'm thinking not faith alone, but faith plus repentance.

 

[RJ]

Obviously

So you believe in his written word, therefore please show scripture that supports your theology on salvation that you gave me.

 

[Aenon]

So you believe in his written word, therefore please show scripture that supports your theology on salvation that you gave me.

You do realize that scripture is not self-interpretive, right? We could throw scripture at each other all day, but it is the interpretation that matters. Behold, I shall both answer your question and prove my point with a single scripture:

1 Peter 3:21a (KJV) "The like figure whereunto baptism doth also now save us..."

 

[RJ]

You do realize that scripture is not self-interpretive, right? We could throw scripture at each other all day, but it is the interpretation that matters. Behold, I shall both answer your question and prove my point with a single scripture:
1 Peter 3:21a (KJV) "The like figure whereunto baptism doth also now save us..."

O.K., finally we are getting somewhere
QUOTE="Aenon, post: 254000, member: 25056"]I believe what the Eastern Orthodox (and subsequently, the Church fathers) believe, that Salvation is a process. I wouldn't use the phrase, "I'm saved," I would say, "I'm on the path/way to salvation."[/QUOTE]

• So, according to your above statement and the preceding 1 Peter verse, can I conclude that with your Eastern Orthodox belief, requires you to also be baptized as a requirement for salvation?
• If yes, then are there other things you must do for salvation?

 

[DHC]

I am sure my understanding of Salvation is very different from yours, as my understanding doesn't come from the western church. I don't believe Salvation is a one-time event. I believe what the Eastern Orthodox (and subsequently, the Church fathers) believe, that Salvation is a process. I wouldn't use the phrase, "I'm saved," I would say, "I'm on the path/way to salvation."

Hello Aenon.

How people interpret the scripture amazes me at times. Nevertheless Aenon, what the apostles taught
about salvation will remain the sole teaching on the subject of salvation.

Salvation is a free gift given by grace, and always is presented in the form of a free gift in the scripture.
It is important to understand the fundamental tenets of Christianity, and it is vital to understand
what the apostles actually taught in the first instance.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Eternal life is given to us as a free gift, that is what grace really means, undeserved merit.

Acts 15:11
But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus

Salvation is granted only through grace, salvation is never to be thought of as something that we
will earn in any way.

Romans 3:24
being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus

Christ redeems us and has redeemed us, but this redemption is only ever through undeserved grace.

Salvation by grace is one of the fundamental tenets of the apostle's teaching.

Romans 11
6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

Salvation is always presented in the form of a gift, and salvation is never seen to result from human effort.
Grace remains grace at all times, a free gift that cannot be earned.

Colossians 1
22 yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before
Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach, 23 if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established
and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard.

Christ presents you holy and blameless before God through the Gospel. You do not and cannot
present yourself before God yourself, on the merits of your own behavior. Otherwise the free gift will
not in fact be free at all.

Ephesians 1:7
In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the
riches of His grace

Redemption, salvation, eternal life, only through His blood and only by grace.

Ephesians 2:5
even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ
(by grace you have been saved)

You exist in the kingdom of the Son only by grace alone through Christ alone.

2 Timothy 1:9
who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His
own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity

Saved by grace as a gift in Christ Jesus and this was always the eternal plan of God.

 

[amadeus2]

I am not sure what you are referring to Brother, for sure I sad nothing about "being still dead", as you say ? But, I will take it, it is my statement : "If you are still alive, you haven't quite made it there yet!"
If I am right, I politely say that I don't have it reversed, but your understanding of what I said is reversed:

• No human can look God in the face and live.
• He told Moses as such when he wouldn't even allow Moses to look at him in the face.
• This human imperfection aspect is not any different for even the "Born Again" Christian. Even a Christian can not look God "Face to Face". Being a true Christian doesn't change this, you are still in the flesh and not yet in your resurrected body, in other words: " you are still alive, you haven't quite made it there yet!"..
  
• You are still alive physically, but because you are also alive spiritually, when you die your physical death, you will finally achieve spiritual and bodily ( resurrected) perfection and as according to 1 Corinthians 13: 12-13 12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly); but then we will see face to face. Now I know only in part; then I will know fully, even as I have been fully known.... You will see God face to face because you perfected for God's realm...remember he is spirit and we must worship him in spirit and truth.
  
• You amadeus2, are, thought spiritually alive, you are currently alive in the human, physical body state also. You can't physically see God face to face... "you haven't quite made it there yet!"

We apparently "see" things somewhat differently.

Jesus called the unbelievers, dead, and so they were and are.

"But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead." Matt 8:22

What's alive in me are both the new man and the old man (double-minded as per James). But the new or inner man is the only one that is really alive before God. Only that new or inner man is able to see God even dimly. As he grows in God his vision improves. The old man, of course, is really dead to God and unless he receives the Life Jesus brought, he can never see God.

 

[RJ]

We apparently "see" things somewhat differently.

Jesus called the unbelievers, dead, and so they were and are.

"But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead." Matt 8:22

What's alive in me are both the new man and the old man (double-minded as per James). But the new or inner man is the only one that is really alive before God. Only that new or inner man is able to see God even dimly. As he grows in God his vision improves. The old man, of course, is really dead to God and unless he receives the Life Jesus brought, he can never see God.

No we agree. I don't know why, but I will take the blame for what must have been a poorly presented point, because you you just can't seem to see what God told Moses, that no living human could look at him in the face and live. But,scripture states, once we are perfected and glorified ( spiritual or complete resurrected form), we will be able to look at God face to face. That is all I was saying, and apparently I failed at that attempt!
Yes, we see him dimly but then we will see him face to face.....these are two distinct things.

 

[RJ]

Hello Aenon.

How people interpret the scripture amazes me at times. Nevertheless Aenon, what the apostles taught
about salvation will remain the sole teaching on the subject of salvation.

Salvation is a free gift given by grace, and always is presented in the form of a free gift in the scripture.
It is important to understand the fundamental tenets of Christianity, and it is vital to understand
what the apostles actually taught in the first instance.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Eternal life is given to us as a free gift, that is what grace really means, undeserved merit.

Acts 15:11
But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus

Salvation is granted only through grace, salvation is never to be thought of as something that we
will earn in any way.

Romans 3:24
being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus

Christ redeems us and has redeemed us, but this redemption is only ever through undeserved grace.

Salvation by grace is one of the fundamental tenets of the apostle's teaching.

Romans 11
6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

Salvation is always presented in the form of a gift, and salvation is never seen to result from human effort.
Grace remains grace at all times, a free gift that cannot be earned.

Colossians 1
22 yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before
Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach, 23 if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established
and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard.

Christ presents you holy and blameless before God through the Gospel. You do not and cannot
present yourself before God yourself, on the merits of your own behavior. Otherwise the free gift will
not in fact be free at all.

Ephesians 1:7
In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the
riches of His grace

Redemption, salvation, eternal life, only through His blood and only by grace.

Ephesians 2:5
even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ
(by grace you have been saved)

You exist in the kingdom of the Son only by grace alone through Christ alone.

2 Timothy 1:9
who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His
own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity

Saved by grace as a gift in Christ Jesus and this was always the eternal plan of God.

Great presentation! This is the sort of thing that Jesus said would set you free....the truth!

 

[amadeus2]

No we agree. I don't know why, but I will take the blame for what must have been a poorly presented point, because you you just can't seem to see what God told Moses, that no living human could look at him in the face and live. But,scripture states, once we are perfected and glorified ( spiritual or complete resurrected form), we will be able to look at God face to face. That is all I was saying, and apparently I failed at that attempt!

Did not Jesus see his Father? Did not the Holy Spirit provide the ability to see better than Moses? Can we see as well as Moses saw? Even if the answer is presently, no, must it remain, no, while we are in this flesh? It is not the eyes of our flesh that sees God, is it? They are blind.

It is those who have "eyes to see" who see God.

"Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father." John 6:46

"Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?" John 14:9

Can any man can see God as I see God with the "eyes to see" He has given me, except another man who has similarly been given "eyes to see"?

 

[RJ]

Did not Jesus see his Father? Did not the Holy Spirit provide the ability to see better than Moses? Can we see as well as Moses saw? Even if the answer is presently, no, must it remain, no, while we are in this flesh? It is not the eyes of our flesh that sees God, is it? They are blind.

It is those who have "eyes to see" who see God.

"Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father." John 6:46

"Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?" John 14:9

Can any man can see God as I see God with the "eyes to see" He has given me, except another man who has similarly been given "eyes to see"?

Sorry, I give up brother.....Jesus is Lord and Savior, that we surely can connect with!

 

[RJ]

Did not Jesus see his Father? Did not the Holy Spirit provide the ability to see better than Moses? Can we see as well as Moses saw? Even if the answer is presently, no, must it remain, no, while we are in this flesh? It is not the eyes of our flesh that sees God, is it? They are blind.

It is those who have "eyes to see" who see God.

"Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father." John 6:46

"Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?" John 14:9

Can any man can see God as I see God with the "eyes to see" He has given me, except another man who has similarly been given "eyes to see"?

If you , in your current, "alive", state have / can/ or could look our God absolutely face to face and live, more power to you brother...your a better man than me! And I mean a man, not an immortal! Which you aren't yet!

 

[Aenon]

I'm laughing at the irony here. All of you are proving my point. Look at all the disagreement between people who all claim to follow the Bible only. Listen folks, if you dont have the "interpretive tradition" passed down from the apostles to their direct followers, to those who later became the fathers, then all youre doing is coming up with your own imaginations. None of you can ever claim you follow the teachings of the apostles if you have no authority as to whether or not you are understanding them correctly.

 

[RJ]

I'm laughing at the irony here. All of you are proving my point. Look at all the disagreement between people who all claim to follow the Bible only. Listen folks, if you dont have the "interpretive tradition" passed down from the apostles to their direct followers, to those who later became the fathers, then all youre doing is coming up with your own imaginations. None of you can ever claim you follow the teachings of the apostles if you have no authority as to whether or not you are understanding them correctly.

Laugh away my friend!
Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding;

 

[amadeus2]

Sorry, I give up brother.....Jesus is Lord and Savior, that we surely can connect with!

There is really is no one who needs to give up to another person. It is not a matter of you being right or me being right. It is, as you say, our connection with God through Jesus. Doctrine is not all evil but neither is something that alone will save us. Paul explains what is most important in I Corinthians chapter 13.

"And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing."

 

[RJ]

There is really is no one who needs to give up to another person. It is not a matter of you being right or me being right. It is, as you say, our connection with God through Jesus. Doctrine is not all evil but neither is something that alone will save us. Paul explains what is most important in I Corinthians chapter 13.

"And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing."

But again, we agree that Jesus is Lord and Savior, right?

 

[amadeus2]

I'm laughing at the irony here. All of you are proving my point. Look at all the disagreement between people who all claim to follow the Bible only. Listen folks, if you dont have the "interpretive tradition" passed down from the apostles to their direct followers, to those who later became the fathers, then all youre doing is coming up with your own imaginations. None of you can ever claim you follow the teachings of the apostles if you have no authority as to whether or not you are understanding them correctly.

We know dear friend that the Bible without the Spirit to give it Life can kill:

Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life." II Cor 3:6

 

[amadeus2]

But again, we agree that Jesus is Lord and Savior, right?

Amen!

 

[RJ]

Amen!

Hallelujah!

 

[Aenon]

Laugh away my friend!
Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding;

Thanks for strengthening my argument tenfold with that verse. I've been saying that from the start. You are all leaning on your own understanding when you refuse to listen to the fathers of the early church.

 

[RJ]

Thanks for strengthening my argument tenfold with that verse. I've been saying that from the start. You are all leaning on your own understanding when you refuse to listen to the fathers of the early church.

Your pride proceeds you. You have no "strengthening" of your argument, because we do not accept that argument, and our "leaning" is on the actual word of God and not Eastern Orthodoxy!