Are You Saved By Grace or Faith Alone

[Aenon]

Your pride proceeds you. You have no "strengthening" of your argument, because we do not accept that argument, and our "leaning" is on the actual word of God and not Eastern Orthodoxy!

Suppose there were two students in a university. The first student says, "Hitler was a Christian. I know so because I read his book and I concluded with ten reasons why he was a Christian." The second student says, "No, he wasn't. I have spoken to the WW2 and Adolf Hitler scholars at Harvard, and they can give you five hundred reasons why he wasnt." Tell me, which of the two students leans on their own understanding? Then ask yourself which of them sounds more like you.

 

[Spockrates]

Suppose there were two students in a university. The first student says, "Hitler was a Christian. I know so because I read his book and I concluded with ten reasons why he was a Christian." The second student says, "No, he wasn't. I have spoken to the WW2 and Adolf Hitler scholars at Harvard, and they can give you five hundred reasons why he wasnt." Tell me, which of the two students leans on their own understanding? Then ask yourself which of them sounds more like you.

I would say to both, "Tell me more so that I may make up my own mind who speaks the truth."

And I'm glad you are here. For I know very little about the Orthodox Church. Are you willing to tell me about your faith, or do you have your hands full defending it at the moment?

 

[RJ]

Suppose there were two students in a university. The first student says, "Hitler was a Christian. I know so because I read his book and I concluded with ten reasons why he was a Christian." The second student says, "No, he wasn't. I have spoken to the WW2 and Adolf Hitler scholars at Harvard, and they can give you five hundred reasons why he wasnt." Tell me, which of the two students leans on their own understanding? Then ask yourself which of them sounds more like you.

• I call it neither.
  
• Hitler was a false Christian, in the end he did not have Christ in him. There is no scripture for this, it is by faith alone that I know this!
  
• My understanding comes by faith, which is a gift from God because Christ is in me.
• If you don't understand / accept these things, I would say you do not have Christ in you!

 

[Aenon]

I would say to both, "Tell me more so that I may make up my own mind who speaks the truth."

And I'm glad you are here. For I know very little about the Orthodox Church. Are you willing to tell me about your faith, or do you have your hands full defending it at the moment?

I'm actually a protestant, but my theology is aligned with the Orthodox. The more I studied them and learned what they had to say about protestants, the more I agreed with them.

 

[Aenon]

• I call it neither.
  
• Hitler was a false Christian, in the end he did not have Christ in him. There is no scripture for this, it is by faith alone that I know this!
  
• My understanding comes by faith, which is a gift from God because Christ is in me.
• If you don't understand / accept these things, I would say you do not have Christ in you!

*facepalm*

 

[RJ]

I'm actually a protestant, but my theology is aligned with the Orthodox. The more I studied them and learned what they had to say about protestants, the more I agreed with them.

So, you come here to TJ, which is full of "Protestants" and you come with a preconceived negative narrative about them!

 

[Aenon]

So, you come here to TJ, which is full of "Protestants" and you come with a preconceived negative narrative about them!

No, I am merely honest about the idiocy within my camp.

 

[RJ]

*facepalm*

Matthew 25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Matthew 16:23 Jesus turned and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns."
Matthew 4:10 Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: 'Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.'"

 

[Aenon]

Matthew 25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Matthew 16:23 Jesus turned and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns."
Matthew 4:10 Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: 'Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.'"

You sure showed me! Quoting all those scriptures like that.

 

[RJ]

No, I am merely honest about the idiocy within my camp.

Dictionary translation of "Idiocy" : extremely stupid behavior.
honest about the idiocy within my camp ....your words, not mine,,,After your many recent diatribes, I am what you stand for?

 

[Spockrates]

I'm actually a protestant, but my theology is aligned with the Orthodox. The more I studied them and learned what they had to say about protestants, the more I agreed with them.

So what agreements have you found?

 

[Aenon]

So what agreements have you found?

The biggest thing is that Protestants don't realize the importance of church tradition and how the early church functioned, what the early church believed, how they interpreted bible passages, etc. Things like sola scriptura are ineffective, because it says nothing about how to interpret the bible correctly, only THAT you must interpret the bible. Ironically, protestants are the only christian demographic that believes in sola scriptura, yet they are the most divided of all. That says something.

 

[Spockrates]

The biggest thing is that Protestants don't realize the importance of church tradition and how the early church functioned, what the early church believed, how they interpreted bible passages, etc. Things like sola scriptura are ineffective, because it says nothing about how to interpret the bible correctly, only THAT you must interpret the bible. Ironically, protestants are the only christian demographic that believes in sola scriptura, yet they are the most divided of all. That says something.

Yes, I agree, as it seems to me there are important passages of scripture that are ambiguous, and so are interpreted different ways. But I think even Protestants have teachers--and to a lesser degree traditions--of their own.

For example, the idea that one is saved through faith alone seems to originate with John Calvin, who said:

It is faith alone that justifies, but the faith that justifies is not alone.
​

I might be showing my ignorance, but I don't believe anyone used the phrase "faith alone" prior to him.

​

 

[Spockrates]

Yes, I agree, as it seems to me there are important passages of scripture that are ambiguous, and so are interpreted different ways. But I think even Protestants have teachers--and to a lesser degree traditions--of their own.

For example, the idea that one is saved through faith alone seems to originate with John Calvin, who said:

It is faith alone that justifies, but the faith that justifies is not alone.
​

I might be showing my ignorance, but I don't believe anyone used the phrase "faith alone" prior to him.

​

It seems Martn Luther was the originator, but "faith alone" does not appear to be a phrase used prior to the Reformation. His quote:

We are saved by faith alone, but the faith that saves is never alone.​

 

[Aenon]

Yes, I agree, as it seems to me there are important passages of scripture that are ambiguous, and so are interpreted different ways. But I think even Protestants have teachers--and to a lesser degree traditions--of their own.

For example, the idea that one is saved through faith alone seems to originate with John Calvin, who said:

It is faith alone that justifies, but the faith that justifies is not alone.
​

I might be showing my ignorance, but I don't believe anyone used the phrase "faith alone" prior to him.

​

Precisely. Everyone has a tradition, some newer than others. It has nothing to do with how much authority you have in the bible, it has to do with where your secondary authority (interpretation) lies, whether it be in yourself or another.

 

[DHC]

I'm actually a protestant, but my theology is aligned with the Orthodox. The more I studied them and learned what they had to say about protestants, the more I agreed with them.

Hello Aenon.
You said 'my theology is aligned with the Orthodox', could you provide more clarification?

 

[Aenon]

Hello Aenon.
You said 'my theology is aligned with the Orthodox', could you provide more clarification?

I'll put it in contrasting terms for you to get an idea of what facets of Protestantism I no longer accept:

1) I do not believe in defining ultimate salvation as mere one time event of conversion to Christianity, but rather seeing it as a journey. The picture of Salvation, as I see it, is likened to Origen's allegory of the Exodus. Being called out of Egypt, passing through the waters of baptism, leaving the old man to die in the waters, to be led to the wilderness to feast on the manna from heaven to sustain you (eucharist), to ultimately be led to the promised land ("he who endures to the end will be saved"). I see salvation not as one moment in this journey, but the whole journey from start to finish.

2) I reject sola scriptura, for reasons I have not ceased from mentioning.

3) I reject the idea that the eucharist and baptism are merely symbolic.

4) I reject the protestant canon, as I accept the old testament books not included in protestant bibles.

5) I reject the judicial concept of atonement as an overemphasis and distortion of the book of Romans, in favor of the more ancient views modernly termed as Christus Victor.

6) I reject a literal understanding of Hell, as it is absurd to think physical fire can burn a soul. I believe Hell is merely the experience of unbelievers in the presence of God and his glory (2 th 1:9)

 

[RJ]

The biggest thing is that Protestants don't realize the importance of church tradition and how the early church functioned, what the early church believed, how they interpreted bible passages, etc. Things like sola scriptura are ineffective, because it says nothing about how to interpret the bible correctly, only THAT you must interpret the bible. Ironically, protestants are the only christian demographic that believes in sola scriptura, yet they are the most divided of all. That says something.

Do you accept Jesus Christ as the same as God?

 

[Aenon]

Do you accept Jesus Christ as the same as God?

Are you asking me if I believe in the divinity of Jesus? Yes i do.

 

[RJ]

Are you asking me if I believe in the divinity of Jesus? Yes i do.

So you believe in the New testament?