I dont really understand what youre saying here. Belief also involves self, because you are the one to believe, and therefore necessarily requires an involvement of yourself.
Ask an Atheist.
- Thread starter Michael D.
- Start date
I dont really understand what youre saying here. Belief also involves self, because you are the one to believe, and therefore necessarily requires an involvement of yourself.
Thiscrosshurts
Active
- Joined
- Mar 9, 2011
- Messages
- 1,630
This is a post from our prayer request forum.
An Atheist would have to admit that this is possible and I guess you could say prayer might be an enhanced form of the placebo effect but I say pray away..hey pray for me..
Please lord, don't send me home just yet....
They say religion is the opiate of the masses but if it wasn't for Jesus I would actually be doing opium if I could find it.
An Atheist would have to admit that this is possible and I guess you could say prayer might be an enhanced form of the placebo effect but I say pray away..hey pray for me..
It might be worth reading the original prayer request also.
Please lord, don't send me home just yet....
They say religion is the opiate of the masses but if it wasn't for Jesus I would actually be doing opium if I could find it.
I never understood this argument, and why christians believe this to be in any way convincing, or re-affirming.
Hello Asanima.
A theist is one who believes in a God or Gods.
As I said previously on an intellectual level I am not a theist.
I do not accept the definition of God or Gods.
I will explain why Asanima.
The Apostle Paul writes of human ignorance and the ease with which most of mankind is deceived in every generation, beginning with our leaders: scientists, political leaders, and barons of industry:
A theist is one who believes in a God or Gods.
As I said previously on an intellectual level I am not a theist.
I do not accept the definition of God or Gods.
I will explain why Asanima.
The Apostle Paul writes of human ignorance and the ease with which most of mankind is deceived in every generation, beginning with our leaders: scientists, political leaders, and barons of industry:
"Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe.
For Jews demands signs and Greeks seek wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men...And I was with you in weakness and in much fear and trembling, and my speech and my message were not in plausible words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and power, that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.
"Yet among the mature we do impart wisdom, although it is not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers (leaders) of this age, who are doomed to pass away. But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glorification. None of the rulers of this age understood this; for if they had they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. But as it is written, 'What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man conceived, what God has prepared for those who love him,' God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. For what person knows a man's thoughts except the spirit of the man which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is from God, that we might understand the gifts bestowed on us by God. And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who possess the Spirit. The natural man (man in his natural condition before spiritual rebirth) does not receive the gifts of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them for they are spiritually discerned." (1 Corinthians 1:20-25; 2:3-14)
Alas Asanima God is Spirit not definable by human thought.
Revelation is the key that unlocks the vault of true knowledge Asanima. All is contained within Jesus
Christ, neither condition A or (not A) in the end is
correct.
For Jews demands signs and Greeks seek wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men...And I was with you in weakness and in much fear and trembling, and my speech and my message were not in plausible words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and power, that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.
"Yet among the mature we do impart wisdom, although it is not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers (leaders) of this age, who are doomed to pass away. But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glorification. None of the rulers of this age understood this; for if they had they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. But as it is written, 'What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man conceived, what God has prepared for those who love him,' God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. For what person knows a man's thoughts except the spirit of the man which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is from God, that we might understand the gifts bestowed on us by God. And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who possess the Spirit. The natural man (man in his natural condition before spiritual rebirth) does not receive the gifts of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them for they are spiritually discerned." (1 Corinthians 1:20-25; 2:3-14)
Alas Asanima God is Spirit not definable by human thought.
Revelation is the key that unlocks the vault of true knowledge Asanima. All is contained within Jesus
Christ, neither condition A or (not A) in the end is
correct.
Thiscrosshurts
Active
- Joined
- Mar 9, 2011
- Messages
- 1,630
It's not an argument,just a really cool anomaly.
If you think dying of cancer is preferable then I would have to say that's your personal preference.
Last edited:
SpiritLedEd
Member
- Joined
- Aug 14, 2005
- Messages
- 5,315
Once again, Asanima and Michael D, I urge you to read the book The Reason For God by Timothy Keller. Its an intelligent, well reasoned work and an easy read.
SLE
Quick question then. How do you know God is Good or Evil, neither or both?
I mean, you have your own unique viewpoint on God, which is fine. But you are arguing that one cannot define God in any way. So how do you know that God is Good or evil?
Although it depends on the type of death, as i think that dying of cancer is perferable to... being boiled alive, maybe. But its not really an anomaly. People get better, cancer goes into remission whether you pray or not. And people are cured of cancer whether they pray to a Muslim God or a Christian God.
Dont get me wrong, i think its great that cancer goes into remission. But this doesnt seem to have anything to do with christian prayer.
If i do, would you like to discuss the book afterwards?
SpiritLedEd
Member
- Joined
- Aug 14, 2005
- Messages
- 5,315
Hello Asanima.
You asked "how do I know God is good or evil".
If you consider that love is greater than good, then I have a
wonderful verse from the letter to the Ephesians.
So that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith.
And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love,
may have power, together with all the Lord’s holy people,
to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ,
and to know this love that surpasses knowledge—that you may be
filled to the measure of all the fullness of God. ( Ephesians 3:17-19 )
So yes I am certain that God exceeds our highest aspirations of good.
You asked "how do I know God is good or evil".
If you consider that love is greater than good, then I have a
wonderful verse from the letter to the Ephesians.
So that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith.
And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love,
may have power, together with all the Lord’s holy people,
to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ,
and to know this love that surpasses knowledge—that you may be
filled to the measure of all the fullness of God. ( Ephesians 3:17-19 )
So yes I am certain that God exceeds our highest aspirations of good.
Rev T.S.Perkins
Member
- Joined
- Dec 21, 2011
- Messages
- 1,176
God doesnt believe that athiests exsist either .FOR we are ALL created in Gods own image ...and just for my own knowalage .when you have a really good day WHO DO YOU THANK FOR IT ..??? just thought id ask ....Rev
Last edited:
Oh Anasima. This posting is dragged down by semantics and dances around any real conclusion or real discussion.
3) Omniscient, all knowing, seriously do we have any
idea what that word is supposed to mean. "All knowing"
for mankind whose knowledge is based on arrays of
assumptions it is a ridiculous word and invalid definition.
Yes, we have EVERY idea what that word is supposed to mean. Just because we do not have the ability within our human selves, does not mean that God doesn't evince these characteristics. It's not relevant to man's "arrays of assumptions" - it 's relevant to God's arrays of CONCLUSIONS. It's why he IS God.
Anasima - why do we have a searching nature? Why do we think on matters beyond our reasoning? You know, during the night when we lie awake and life occurs to us? We call it a spirit.
We can put the "infinite regression" question toward evolution, any other theory relating to creation (my word). And, yes, toward God (who made God etc etc).
I'm here to say that I don't know the answer to that one. And to be honest, I don't care. I have been convinced of the immovable truthfulness of God's Word, which has stood the test of time.
John 20:29 Jesus said to him, Thomas, because you have seen Me you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.
This verse deals in faith, which is the bond between the Creator and His child. There comes a time when your heart is stilled and all intellectual propositions just die away on your tongue, when the Holy Spirit enters and stays.
I will pray for you that this is an experience you will have and that you will find the love that knows no bounds. Much prayer and thoughts.
3) Omniscient, all knowing, seriously do we have any
idea what that word is supposed to mean. "All knowing"
for mankind whose knowledge is based on arrays of
assumptions it is a ridiculous word and invalid definition.
Yes, we have EVERY idea what that word is supposed to mean. Just because we do not have the ability within our human selves, does not mean that God doesn't evince these characteristics. It's not relevant to man's "arrays of assumptions" - it 's relevant to God's arrays of CONCLUSIONS. It's why he IS God.
Anasima - why do we have a searching nature? Why do we think on matters beyond our reasoning? You know, during the night when we lie awake and life occurs to us? We call it a spirit.
We can put the "infinite regression" question toward evolution, any other theory relating to creation (my word). And, yes, toward God (who made God etc etc).
I'm here to say that I don't know the answer to that one. And to be honest, I don't care. I have been convinced of the immovable truthfulness of God's Word, which has stood the test of time.
John 20:29 Jesus said to him, Thomas, because you have seen Me you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.
This verse deals in faith, which is the bond between the Creator and His child. There comes a time when your heart is stilled and all intellectual propositions just die away on your tongue, when the Holy Spirit enters and stays.
I will pray for you that this is an experience you will have and that you will find the love that knows no bounds. Much prayer and thoughts.
faithfulservant
Member
- Joined
- Jun 11, 2009
- Messages
- 462
How can you be so dogmatic in your belief that there is no God? Are you relying upon your 5 senses to draw this conclusion? If so, even by worldly standards of logic, this would be completely fallacious reasoning.
For example, 500 years ago no one could prove black holes existed in outer space. We now know differently, so it's logical to assume that black holes existed even when people could not concretely prove it 500 years ago.
Frankly, I'm astonished at how simplistic and concrete most atheist's views on the possibility of God are. You can trick a baby by hiding a ball under a blanket, but that doesn't mean the ball doesn't exist when it's hidden.
In other words, it's faulty reasoning to generalize that there must not be a God because you have not discerned Him through your senses.
You said before that you cannot define God or his characteristics, and yet you come here telling me that God has love or is love or associated with love. Youre telling me of a characteristic of God, while denying that we cannot know anything about that characteristic. So how do you know the "Love" that you speak of that God has, is in any way related to what we know and define as "Love"?
But this is all going from a standpoint of the assumption that God exists, and that we all instinctively know that he exists.
Sure, but im not really understanding what hes(David777) talking about. I mean, we have a decent definition of Omnipotence, omnipresence, etc, that both christian scholars and theologians, philosophers alike have been dabbling over the past centuries. And most christians would agree with that. but the definition hes talking about, makes the belief useless. You essentially dont know what you believe, but you believe it anyways.
But David777 is trying to say that we DONT have an idea of what the word is supposed to mean, and thats the problem i have with his argument.
Okay, now i think you arent talking about my discussion with David777 anymore. Which is fine, and if you want to discuss this, ill be happy to.
To which, my first question would be, what has convinced you that the words of God are actually the words of God, and that they are true?
Thanks for your prayer and thoughts, but if its alright with you, id also like to continue our discussion.
Okay, i wasnt going to reply to this, but since im an atheist...
Yes, black holes exist, we have evidence for their existance today. So, the question is, if someone came up with a concept of a black hole, 500 years ago, would you be justified in accepting that claim as true?
The answer, of course, is no. It doesnt matter if Black Holes happened to exist. Without evidence, without sufficient reason, you are unjustified in your belief.
Let me just clarify, that i dont believe that God doesnt exist, either. But its not exactly faulty reasoning to conclude that something does not exist because we have not discerned it through our senses(i.e. evidence). If I tell you that i have a cat in my suitcase, and you open my suitcase and take a look inside, and find nothing, you have good reasoning to reject my claim and conclude that i do not have a cat in my suitcase, specifically because your five senses does not discern any cat within my suitcase.
- Joined
- Feb 9, 2004
- Messages
- 17,078
All I can say to this statement is wow! Please think about this. So I guess brains did not exist until they were discovered that people had physical brains, hearts, etc? Sorry, but this is just like hitting a brick wall. I cannot believe you actually made such a statement.
That pretty much sums up your beliefs. Your analogy with the cat makes no sense at all.
GOD is real, He exists. I invited you already to visit some links and evidence and prophecy forum to read some sticky threads. Did you? Apparently you did not. So you're speaking about beliefs, facts, evidence yet you're rejecting it before your own eyes when offered to you.
Thankyou Asanima.
This is your reply,
You said before that you cannot define God or his characteristics, and yet you come
here telling me that God has love or is love or associated with love.
Youre telling me of a characteristic of God, while denying that we cannot know
anything about that characteristic. So how do you know the "Love" that you speak
of that God has, is in any way related to what we know and define as "Love"?
I do understand the point you have made.
The Bible is the inspired words of God, I quote the Bible.
In the Bible the definition of love is provided for us.
Here is an example of love defined.
4 Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up;
5 does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil;
6 does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth;
7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
8 Love never fails. ( 1 Corinthians 13 )
This is not my definition Asanima, this is God's definition.
I have not broken any rules, nor is contradiction occurring.
Now for mans definition;
1. a profoundly tender, passionate affection for another person.
You may spot the difference between the two definitions.
The latter definition is more romance than love.
That is one reason why I prefer God's definition.
This is your reply,
You said before that you cannot define God or his characteristics, and yet you come
here telling me that God has love or is love or associated with love.
Youre telling me of a characteristic of God, while denying that we cannot know
anything about that characteristic. So how do you know the "Love" that you speak
of that God has, is in any way related to what we know and define as "Love"?
I do understand the point you have made.
The Bible is the inspired words of God, I quote the Bible.
In the Bible the definition of love is provided for us.
Here is an example of love defined.
4 Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up;
5 does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil;
6 does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth;
7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
8 Love never fails. ( 1 Corinthians 13 )
This is not my definition Asanima, this is God's definition.
I have not broken any rules, nor is contradiction occurring.
Now for mans definition;
1. a profoundly tender, passionate affection for another person.
You may spot the difference between the two definitions.
The latter definition is more romance than love.
That is one reason why I prefer God's definition.
Last edited:
