Born Again? Are You a Son/Daughter of God?

[Dovegiven]

It's perfectly true that what is under the bonnet of a car is occult until the bonnet is lifted, as is the case for anything being sought before it has been found..................At the end of the day, there is no definite, unquestionable definition of 'born of water'.

Water baptism can't always be required to be born of the Spirit, with at least one exclusion by God for the house of Cornelius and the thief on the cross.
Acts 10:44-48 (KJV)
44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

There water baptism came after believing the gospel, even just part of it, unto receiving the Spirit. That little volume of Word washed them by the water of the word, prepared them to receive the measure of faith, and beyond with baptism of the Spirit as happened to the 120 on Pentecost with speaking in tongues.

The thief on the cross was promised to be in Paradise with Jesus without water baptism, but believed on Him, the incarnate Word of God.

Water baptism for Christians is an institution of ordinance to testify of being saved, testifying of repentance from sin. Paul was forgiven, given his eyesight back, filled with the Spirit, then water baptized. If water baptism was a requirement for salvation, then why do things backward like that? It's a sign of commitment. If Paul had declined to be water baptized, might God have taken back what he already had from God? I doubt that.

 

[David Young]

However, if you make different assumptions about what 'born of water' is supposed to be consistent with, there are different conclusions available.

 

[Dovegiven]

It appears to me the whole of scriptures support the idea that being physically born of a woman isn't related to being Spirit born, else the whole world would be pre-disposed to believe the gospel because they were born. I agree it is absurd that Jesus would make that sort of connection. Being born of flesh doesn't get a person half-way to entering the Kingdom of God, and neither will being baptized in water.
1 Corinthians 15:50 (KJV)
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

1 Corinthians 1:14-17 (KJV)
14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.
17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

Paul left water baptism as an ordinance to be carried out by the CHurch after being added to the Church by his preaching, with a few exceptions. Any exception should indicate it is not a requirement for salvation. Believing the gospel of Christ and repenting of sin are requirements. Do those every day of your life.

 

[Dovegiven]

However, if you make different assumptions about what 'born of water' is supposed to be consistent with, there are different conclusions available.

Sir, I read a conclusion in a post above that the discussion presented on this in John 3 might not have ever happened. The scripture can't be broken, as all of it is inspiried of God. Many conclusions are derived from poor exegesis of the word. Many are a result of disbelief, and many more of unbelief.

Disbelief is refusing to change one's mind, sticking to what one has believed, resulting in grave danger in this case, The world clutches to man's religions, and to the world system itself. Unbelief, actually common for most Christians, is a product of simple ignorance of a subject, or still acting according to one's natural senses, such as not acting on a word of God because one's physical eye doesn't see evidence of faith. Unbelief doesn't mean a person is ignorant in general.

Challenging John 3 as containing error is halting somewhere between the two states. It takes learning the word and changing one's natural mind of speaking to escape unbelief. But disbelief blinds a persistent refuser to seeing more from God.

 

[David Young]

Then the solution would be to present a rational refutation to the suggestion that the Jesus-Nicodemus exchange is a work of fiction, one that does not require belief in the supernatural as a starting point.

 

[Dovegiven]

Then the solution would be to present a rational refutation to the suggestion that the Jesus-Nicodemus exchange is a work of fiction, one that does not require belief in the supernatural as a starting point.

There are websites that like refuting the miracles of Jesus, the works of apostles, denying even the existence of a spirit world and of course the claims of Jesus. I ignore them now, as they have no evidence to prove their negatives (and never will), often based on a book sporting 600 errors in the Bible. It was very time consuming to debate those assertions, but none of those proved true, such as the supposed identity of a "hare", or the dimensions of the Temple laver being mathematically impossible.

Been there, done that, David.

 

[Bendito]

Then the solution would be to present a rational refutation to the suggestion that the Jesus-Nicodemus exchange is a work of fiction, one that does not require belief in the supernatural as a starting point.

Pretty hard to refute the spirit world when you are a spirit. Don't you think?

 

[David Young]

Does post #47 even mean anything?

 

[Dovegiven]

Does post #47 even mean anything?

It points out a fallacy of not believing a report of a conversation in a document that was subject to confirmation of witnesses of the era, with no logical reason to doubt it happened. It's in a class of doubting that signers of the Declaration of Independence really spoke what is said of them, or that they even were real people. I've met people who firmly doubt a man walked on the moon just because people say man did. We say "Uh....huh, well see ya later alligator."

I can certainly understand why you failed to grasp the spiritual message of the conversation, a problem that marks perhaps a vast majority of humans. Most rely solely upon words of man's wisdom rather than be open to Holy Spirit wisdom.
1 Corinthians 2:11-16 (KJV)
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

 

[David Young]

A textbook example of a misrepresentation, a straw-man analogy and an occult argument.

It's a hat-trick.

 

[Bendito]

Does post #47 even mean anything?

The exchange between Jesus and Nicodemus is not fiction. You have to be born physically, and your spirit has to be born as well.

 

[TheTruthWithin37]

John 1:11-13 King James Version (KJV)

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

We've been given the power (authority) to become sons/daughters of God... How did you become a son/daughter of God? You believed on His name...Then...?
What does one do to become a son/daughter of God?


Galatians 3:26-28 Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)

26 For in union with the Messiah, you are all children of God through this trusting faithfulness; 27 because as many of you as were immersed into the Messiah have clothed yourselves with the Messiah, in whom 28 there is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor freeman, neither male nor female; for in union with the Messiah Yeshua, you are all one.

So does this mean that baptism is not optional, but is necessary to becoming a son/daughter of God?

What thinkest thou?

What does it mean to " believe"? For example, lets say you have a medical problem and you go to the doctor to get fixed. He gives you medication and says do this, this, and this, and you should be okay. So you get home and you don't do anything that he said/taught you, so did you really believe in him when he told you how to get better? Now lets use that example for Jesus and his teachings, he says pray, fast, and help the needy in secret. Don't announce it like a trumpet when you do Matthew 6 beggining. We can say we "love" jesus or we "believe" in him all we like. But are we doing what he says? " If you love me you'll obey my commands John 14:15. I think that's what it takes to be a "son of God", something that has a real foundation, purpose behind it other than just saying something. " Everyone who hears my words and does them will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock - and everyone who hears these words and does not do them is like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. Matthew 7:24-27

 

[Dave M]

What does it mean to " believe"? For example, lets say you have a medical problem and you go to the doctor to get fixed. He gives you medication and says do this, this, and this, and you should be okay. So you get home and you don't do anything that he said/taught you, so did you really believe in him when he told you how to get better? Now lets use that example for Jesus and his teachings, he says pray, fast, and help the needy in secret. Don't announce it like a trumpet when you do Matthew 6 beggining. We can say we "love" jesus or we "believe" in him all we like. But are we doing what he says? " If you love me you'll obey my commands John 14:15. I think that's what it takes to be a "son of God", something that has a real foundation, purpose behind it other than just saying something. " Everyone who hears my words and does them will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock - and everyone who hears these words and does not do them is like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. Matthew 7:24-27

most excellent post brother !! thanks for sharing