Can a Believer Sin?

[amadeus2]

My friend, when you were born again you died and were born anew. What part of you died? Your body? No. Your soul? No It was your spirit that died...That is the old man that died and a new man was born, an entirely NEW creation....Look again my friend, You died, you were born again, part you and part Holy Spirit...Yes the Holy Spirit merged with you.

You cannot separate Him from you...That makes you actually more than human. You are a hybrid if you can accept that. You have God's dna as a part of you.

Where does this merger idea come from? When satan entered Judas did the two of them merge?

Jacob and Esau were in their mother's womb together, not conjoined twins, but separate babies, the one hated and the other loved. They struggled while within one against the other. This is the double-minded man rather than a merged two part man. One of them must die for the other to be in charge:

"Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded." James 4:8

When the Holy Ghost entered in we finally had the ability to win the war, but it had to be fought. God is always the winner when He is allowed to fight:

"What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?" Rom 8:31

The problem is that like the natural Israelites in the OT we limit God:

"Yea, they turned back and tempted God, and limited the Holy One of Israel." Psalm 78:41

How could they and how can we limit almighty God? Because He gave us freedom of choice. We can choose His Way or our own ways:

"And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth." Gen 1:28

The dominion in the above verse includes dominion over the "living thing" that we were before we met God and even since we met God. He gave us the reins, but He wants us to give the reins to Him continuously. We have the authority:

"And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD." Joshua 24:15

What you are fighting now is the old way of thinking...habits if you will. That's the 'work out your own salvation with fear and trembling' that we see in the Word...Replacing our old foolish way of thinking with God's Word and His way of thinking. Ya! And just as Jesus was tempted and chose not to follow Satan's lure, you also have the choice to send the enemy running....Resist the enemy, (actively come against him) and he will flee from you...That's what Jesus did....Satan said " Make these stones bread..." and Jesus said "Thus says the Word.." Right? That's what we are to do...Resist the enemy until he says "Oh darn! Amadeus is awake again!" The only time he gets any rest is when you're sleeping...

The problem between us may be satan himself. He is not completely dead to, or in, either one of us. When we are yielded to the Holy Spirit in us, then satan is subdued, but we keep on quenching the Spirit.

Jesus didn't have an old man...

Perhaps not before he was born to Mary in Bethlehem, but he took the nature of man, the temptations to which his mother was subject, so also was he. He never succumbed to them by sinning, but yes the 'old man' was there. Otherwise there would have been no temptation:

"For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world." I John 2:16

He was always perfect...Still He could have chosen to bow His knee to Satan...He suffered, He got physically weak, He got tired and worn out...His flesh had a loud voice too, like us.... But He did not....

Jesus was always without sin, but he was incomplete before God until he had overcome the last of his own tempta tions, of his own enemies, which I believe he did in Gethsemene (Matt 26:39-45)

God through Jesus opened the way for us to Life which had been closed since the gate into the Garden of Eden was closed to sinning man. But, Jesus was able to do that only by paying the price of death. He opened the gate, but still not just anyone could enter that gate. Only a person wearing a proper garment could enter in and remain...

"And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:

And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.

Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." Matt 22:11-13

Is not the armour of the God the proper garment? (Eph 6:13-17)

 

[Ophel]

We need only wear the blood covering.

 

[Bendito]

Where does this merger idea come from? When satan entered Judas did the two of them merge?

Jacob and Esau were in their mother's womb together, not conjoined twins, but separate babies, the one hated and the other loved. They struggled while within one against the other. This is the double-minded man rather than a merged two part man. One of them must die for the other to be in charge:

"Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded." James 4:8

When the Holy Ghost entered in we finally had the ability to win the war, but it had to be fought. God is always the winner when He is allowed to fight:

"What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?" Rom 8:31

The problem is that like the natural Israelites in the OT we limit God:

"Yea, they turned back and tempted God, and limited the Holy One of Israel." Psalm 78:41

How could they and how can we limit almighty God? Because He gave us freedom of choice. We can choose His Way or our own ways:

"And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth." Gen 1:28

The dominion in the above verse includes dominion over the "living thing" that we were before we met God and even since we met God. He gave us the reins, but He wants us to give the reins to Him continuously. We have the authority:

"And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD." Joshua 24:15




The problem between us may be satan himself. He is not completely dead to, or in, either one of us. When we are yielded to the Holy Spirit in us, then satan is subdued, but we keep on quenching the Spirit.



Perhaps not before he was born to Mary in Bethlehem, but he took the nature of man, the temptations to which his mother was subject, so also was he. He never succumbed to them by sinning, but yes the 'old man' was there. Otherwise there would have been no temptation:

"For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world." I John 2:16




Jespart of the same

God through Jesus opened the way for us to Life which had been closed since the gate into the Garden of Eden was closed to sinning man. But, Jesus was able to do that only by paying the price of death. He opened the gate, but still not just anyone could enter that gate. Only a person wearing a proper garment could enter in and remain...

"And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:

And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.

Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." Matt 22:11-13

Is not the armour of the God the proper garment? (Eph 6:13-17)

"Where does this merger idea come from?"

Ezekiel 36:26-27 (CJB)

26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit inside you; I will take the stony heart out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
27 I will put my Spirit inside you and cause you to live by my laws, respect my rulings and obey them.

So God puts His Spirit into us when we're born again...Where do you think He resides? In the body made of mud? In the brain? Just a computer...But you are SPIRIT and He comes in and lives in you...Spirit with spirit...There's the merge.

John 14:17 (KJV)
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

So the Holy Spirit is in us.
1 Corinthians 6:19-20 (KJV)
19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

2 Peter 1:4 (KJV)
4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

With the Holy Spirit living inside us we have the nature of God
1 John 4:15 (KJV)
15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
He is in us, we're in Him Kind of mixed up together into one.

Amadeus you're arguing agains spirit to spirit 'merge' and you're using body vs body 'merge' I understand the confusion..It's seldom taught.

You said "
"And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth." Gen 1:28

The dominion in the above verse includes dominion over the "living thing" that we were before we met God and even since we met God"
Look at it again...be fruitful...multiply...replenish the Earth,and subdue it...Subdue what? Subdue the Earth! That means you have dominion over the living creatures, the plant life and the very planet itself. Tornadoes, earthquakes hurricanes...Everything in and on the Earth is subject to God's people! That's why we will answer for every careless word you speak.
Matthew 12:36 (CJB)
36 Moreover, I tell you this: on the Day of Judgment people will have to give account for every careless word they have spoken;

Wow! Where did you get the idea that Jesus had an 'old man'? That's the sinful nature....The Word say He took part of the same..Hebrews 2:14 But he did not have the sinful nature.

You said "Jesus was always without sin, but he was incomplete before God until he had overcome the last of his own tempta tions, of his own enemies, which I believe he did in Gethsemene"

Well you'll have show me scripture to prove Jesus had a sinful nature

My fingers are tired time for a rest

 

[Bendito]

"Where does this merger idea come from?"

Ezekiel 36:26-27 (CJB)

26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit inside you; I will take the stony heart out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
27 I will put my Spirit inside you and cause you to live by my laws, respect my rulings and obey them.

So God puts His Spirit into us when we're born again...Where do you think He resides? In the body made of mud? In the brain? Just a computer...But you are SPIRIT and He comes in and lives in you...Spirit with spirit...There's the merge.

John 14:17 (KJV)
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

So the Holy Spirit is in us.
1 Corinthians 6:19-20 (KJV)
19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

2 Peter 1:4 (KJV)
4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

With the Holy Spirit living inside us we have the nature of God
1 John 4:15 (KJV)
15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
He is in us, we're in Him Kind of mixed up together into one.

Amadeus you're arguing agains spirit to spirit 'merge' and you're using body vs body 'merge' I understand the confusion..It's seldom taught.

You said "
"And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth." Gen 1:28

The dominion in the above verse includes dominion over the "living thing" that we were before we met God and even since we met God"
Look at it again...be fruitful...multiply...replenish the Earth,and subdue it...Subdue what? Subdue the Earth! That means you have dominion over the living creatures, the plant life and the very planet itself. Tornadoes, earthquakes hurricanes...Everything in and on the Earth is subject to God's people! That's why we will answer for every careless word you speak.
Matthew 12:36 (CJB)
36 Moreover, I tell you this: on the Day of Judgment people will have to give account for every careless word they have spoken;

Wow! Where did you get the idea that Jesus had an 'old man'? That's the sinful nature....The Word say He took part of the same..Hebrews 2:14 But he did not have the sinful nature.

You said "Jesus was always without sin, but he was incomplete before God until he had overcome the last of his own tempta tions, of his own enemies, which I believe he did in Gethsemene"

Well you'll have show me scripture to prove Jesus had a sinful nature

My fingers are tired time for a rest

Hebrews 2:14 (AMP)
14 Therefore, since [these His] children share in flesh and blood [the physical nature of mankind], He Himself in a similar manner also shared in the same [physical nature, but without sin], so that through [experiencing] death He might make powerless (ineffective, impotent) him who had the power of death—that is, the devil—

 

[Ophel]

Jesus did mot have a sin nature whatsoever. His special conception and birth made sure of that.

 

[Ophel]

Jesus did mot have a sin nature whatsoever. His special conception and birth made sure of that.

The word is "not"!

Typos are the order of the day when using a cell phone!


.

 

[B-A-C]

Jesus did mot have a sin nature whatsoever. His special conception and birth made sure of that.

I believe He never sinned... but I believe He was tempted just as much as any of us.
( Matt 4:1; Mark 1:13; Luke 4:2; Heb 2:18; Heb 4:15; etc.. )

 

[Ophel]

I believe He never sinned... but I believe He was tempted just as much as any of us.
( Matt 4:1; Mark 1:13; Luke 4:2; Heb 2:18; Heb 4:15; etc.. )

He was tested and always won, because He could not sin.

 

[Travis]

He was tested and always won, because He could not sin.

Perhaps he could not, because he would not. And he would not because his nature was/is purely divine.

How God himself came in the flesh is a mystery to me, but it surely happened, and he surely never sinned but always did the will of his father.

 

[RJ]

Surely he was very God and very human at this time. I feel sure we will learn someday that it was in God's perfect plan that Jesus would be tempted and later crucified as man and with no help from him.

 

[Christ4Ever]

I believe He never sinned... but I believe He was tempted just as much as any of us.
( Matt 4:1; Mark 1:13; Luke 4:2; Heb 2:18; Heb 4:15; etc.. )

He was tested and always won, because He could not sin.

Perhaps he could not, because he would not. And he would not because his nature was/is purely divine.

How God himself came in the flesh is a mystery to me, but it surely happened, and he surely never sinned but always did the will of his father.

One thing that we must remember Jesus was born without sin. We were "born in sin and shapen in iniquity" Psalm 51:5 and because of the possession of this evil nature as a result of original sin the devil has a foothold in everyone one born in this world. This was not the case with Jesus (Luke 1:35). It's not that He "could" not. For if the possibility of Him sinning was not there. Would not the temptation in the wilderness thereby have been invalidated? It was that He did not and so was faithfully obedient unto the Father. Even unto death.

Just a thought! :thumbsup:

Awesome postings my Brothers & Sisters!
Love you all!
YBIC
C4E
<><

 

[Ophel]

I believe that Jesus was tempted, but He could not sin, being God in the flesh, and having no sin nature.

.

 

[Christ4Ever]

I believe that Jesus was tempted, but He could not sin, being God in the flesh, and having no sin nature.

.

Would that then have invalidated His victory over sin or should I say. It would have been a hollow victory if there was no possibility that He could sin?

I believe it would be better to say that it was impossible that Jesus would sin, but not impossible that He could not sin.

It is because of this that Jesus can demand of us to pick up the crosses daily and follow Him. He was fully God, but was also fully man! For that very reason He understands us better than we understand ourselves!

It's more a play on words between us sister. Neither one of believes that He was going to sin and aren't we grateful for the fact that He did not?

 

[Ophel]

Would that then have invalidated His victory over sin or should I say. It would have been a hollow victory if there was no possibility that He could sin?

I believe it would be better to say that it was impossible that Jesus would sin, but not impossible that He could not sin.

It is because of this that Jesus can demand of us to pick up the crosses daily and follow Him. He was fully God, but was also fully man! For that very reason He understands us better than we understand ourselves!

It's more a play on words between us sister. Neither one of believes that He was going to sin and aren't we grateful for the fact that He did not?

There is no invalidation whatsoever. His power to overcome was in that He could be confronted with temptation but say no without a hitch. What a Lord we can look up to and emulate!

We are definitely in agreement with the fact that Jesus came to vanquish our enemy: sin and death---and the devil himself! Praise God for loving us so much to do that for us. We are so small in His vast universe, yet He ties Himself to us and our destinies! What amazing love! I cannot wrap my head around that!

.

 

[amadeus2]

My friend, when you were born again you died and were born anew. What part of you died? Your body? No. Your soul? No It was your spirit that died...That is the old man that died and a new man was born, an entirely NEW creation....Look again my friend, You died, you were born again, part you and part Holy Spirit...Yes the Holy Spirit merged with you. You cannot separate Him from you...That makes you actually more than human. You are a hybrid if you can accept that. You have God's dna as a part of you.
What you are fighting now is the old way of thinking...habits if you will. That's the 'work out your own salvation with fear and trembling' that we see in the Word...Replacing our old foolish way of thinking with God's Word and His way of thinking. Ya! And just as Jesus was tempted and chose not to follow Satan's lure, you also have the choice to send the enemy running....Resist the enemy, (actively come against him) and he will flee from you...That's what Jesus did....Satan said " Make these stones bread..." and Jesus said "Thus says the Word.." Right? That's what we are to do...Resist the enemy until he says "Oh darn! Amadeus is awake again!" The only time he gets any rest is when you're sleeping...

Jesus didn't have an old man...He was always perfect...Still He could have chosen to bow His knee to Satan...He suffered, He got physically weak, He got tired and worn out...His flesh had a loud voice too, like us.... But He did not....

"Where does this merger idea come from?"

Ezekiel 36:26-27 (CJB)

26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit inside you; I will take the stony heart out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
27 I will put my Spirit inside you and cause you to live by my laws, respect my rulings and obey them.

So God puts His Spirit into us when we're born again...Where do you think He resides? In the body made of mud? In the brain? Just a computer...But you are SPIRIT and He comes in and lives in you...Spirit with spirit...There's the merge.

John 14:17 (KJV)
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

So the Holy Spirit is in us.
1 Corinthians 6:19-20 (KJV)
19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

2 Peter 1:4 (KJV)
4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

With the Holy Spirit living inside us we have the nature of God
1 John 4:15 (KJV)
15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
He is in us, we're in Him Kind of mixed up together into one.

Amadeus you're arguing agains spirit to spirit 'merge' and you're using body vs body 'merge' I understand the confusion..It's seldom taught.

You said "
"And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth." Gen 1:28

The dominion in the above verse includes dominion over the "living thing" that we were before we met God and even since we met God"
Look at it again...be fruitful...multiply...replenish the Earth,and subdue it...Subdue what? Subdue the Earth! That means you have dominion over the living creatures, the plant life and the very planet itself. Tornadoes, earthquakes hurricanes...Everything in and on the Earth is subject to God's people! That's why we will answer for every careless word you speak.
Matthew 12:36 (CJB)
36 Moreover, I tell you this: on the Day of Judgment people will have to give account for every careless word they have spoken;

Wow! Where did you get the idea that Jesus had an 'old man'? That's the sinful nature....The Word say He took part of the same..Hebrews 2:14 But he did not have the sinful nature.

You said "Jesus was always without sin, but he was incomplete before God until he had overcome the last of his own tempta tions, of his own enemies, which I believe he did in Gethsemene"

Well you'll have show me scripture to prove Jesus had a sinful nature

My fingers are tired time for a rest

Well my friend it is not for me to argue further. What I presented is a simplified version of some part of what I believe that God has given me. Because of meanings of words and/or the lack of words I cannot always present what I might like... or what you might like.

Only God gives the increase, not you and not me.

My own belief is in the entirety of scripture as interpreted by the Holy Spirit, but I haven't received it all yet. Who has?

What I have, when God is in it, I am more than willing to share, but a detailed logical sequence is not an answer that I have for you, at least not in any way likely to satisfy you since you apparently either don't understand, or if you do, you disagree with what I have already said.

If I am wrong in any point [and it is likely that I am], hopefully as I trudge through my reading and study and prayer each day God will further enlighten me to clarify or correct as needed.

 

[Bendito]

Amadeus...I'm sorry....I gave too much too fast...Many people are not ready to go as far as I shared....

 

[amadeus2]

Amadeus...I'm sorry....I gave too much too fast...Many people are not ready to go as far as I shared....

Indeed, my friend. I have always been slow even back in the days when I was at my fastest and these are not them. I have been visiting Christian forums on the Internet for many years and early on I was deeply involved in too much controversy which helped few if any. Now I am more selective about which forums I even participate in... TJ is one of the few

 

[Christ4Ever]

@Bendito @Ama

I am blessed by the knowledge of you both.
[Be] kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love; in honour preferring one another; Romans 12:10

You have each shown great heart in your communications.
Hear counsel, and receive instruction, that thou mayest be wise in thy latter end. Proverbs 19:20

You are examples on how we should communicate one with another.
Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. 1 John 4:7

Light in a darkened world.
And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. John 1:5

I am not ashamed to call you my Brothers!
In the love of Jesus Christ
YBIC
C4E
<><

Blessed [are] the pure in heart: for they shall see God. Matthew 5:8

 

[amadeus2]

Thank you @Christ4Ever for your kind words. All of us who truly love the Lord must find that soft answer that turneth away wrath. If we do not... we will finally find ourselves judged by our own measure of judgment toward others. Give God the glory.

 

[Bendito]

Thank you @Christ4Ever for your kind words. All of us who truly love the Lord must find that soft answer that turneth away wrath. If we do not... we will finally find ourselves judged by our own measure of judgment toward others. Give God the glory.

Me too @Christ4Ever Its good of you to say such things....We all endeavor to walk in Him.