Can a true Christian sin or not?

[regibassman57]

@bibleguy, @JesusIs4Me,
What is the difference between these two scriptures?

Rom 5:13 For until the law “sin was in the world”: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Joh 1:29 The next day John sees Jesus coming unto him, and said, Behold the Lamb of God, which “takes away the sin of the world.”

 

[JesusIs4Me]

JesusIs4Me,
I don’t think you see what Christ has done for you. When you first came to Christ, He forgave you of “all” your sins “past,” because we know Christ died over 2000 years ago; “present” because we know that Christ died over 2000 years ago and future because we know that Christ died over 2000 years ago.

Are you insinuating that we are now perfect and therefore incapable of sinning? I believe you know that is not the case when you rationalize those sins as unfruitful works. If we deny what sin is, then we deny our need of Him to forgive us and to help us to live as His daily.

The Grace of God spans beyond time. Two thousand years ago you were not thought of by man; but God thought of you and sent His son for your future sins telling you He will not remember your sins when you came to Him. Your future sins today has been taken away in God's sight. You are not seeing life through the sight of God Mercy or Righteousness.

You believe you are in the flesh, therefore, you believe that you are still in Adam. In Adam all sin. Jesus teaches there is no sin in Him (1John 3:5). You are not alive in Christ if you sin and you cannot jump in and out of the body of Christ serving two natures. You are either dead to the one and are alive to the other, or visa-versa. You cannot serve two masters.

The scriptures you gave speak of the term “sin,” but there is no principle rule regarding what sin is or how God views sin in His thoughts. I’ve asked questions that no one desires or appears they can answer. Sending me scriptures just because they used the word sin tells me you do not understand the verses and what’s truly being said.

You say we are not perfect yet. Once again you see yourself after the flesh. You believe you can be defiled with sin. Scripture teaches that your inner man cannot be corrupted; sin corrupts, that’s why God gave you a new heart and a new spirit that is incorruptible.

The grace of God goes beyond time in that we are saved no matter what, but as far as our present state in that we are still tempted to sin, and do sin, is why we are running that race by faith in Jesus Christ to help us lay aside every weight & sin.

So I ask you, how can there be a race for believers to lay aside every weight & sin unless it is possible that they can still sin? What are these warnings to believers for except to exhort them to always trust Jesus Christ as their Good Shepherd daily to help them lay aside every weight & sin that tries to build on that foundation to stay there?

Romans 13:13 Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying. 14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

1 Corinthians 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall. 13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

Was Paul vain for warning believers not to live in sin if they can never sin as you believe?

James 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him. 13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. 16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.

James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

Was James was writing in vain by warning believers if they can never sin as you believe?

1 John 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. When you speak of past, present, and future sins, as in the remission of sin, you are actually talking about that foundation laid by Jesus Christ; our salvation, but that has nothing to do with running that race nor does that mean we can never sin down here while saved.

1 John 2:1My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Was John lying in according to your belief that a Christian can never sin? Or was John addressing the need for believers to lean on Jesus Christ all the time to walk in the light laying aside every weight & sin and not in darkness by calling sin as not sin any more & so they live in unrepentant sin?

I really think you need to reconsider the scripture carefully because running that race is not for obtaining salvation, but for living that reconciled relationship with God thru Jesus Christ in helping us to follow Him by laying aside every weight & sin so that our fellowship will be with the Father & the Son so that our joy may be full when we see sin not having dominion over our lives any more in that we can lean on Him to forgive us of our sins, and ask Him to help us stop sinning before it becomes a habit again as in having dominion over us and our lives. Living that Christian life is trusting Him as our Good Shepherd and Friend to help us live daily a life of repentance while in this sin fallen flesh in being witnesses of Him in us so that sinners can hope in Him as well for deliverance from the destructive power of sin over our lives.

1 John 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. ....8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

2 Timothy 4:18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

You are saved; that foundation can never be removed, but sins on that foundation need to be repented of to be removed, but if you call sin as not sin, then you are deceiving yourself and denying your need for forgiveness from Him as well as His help not to do it again.

 

[regibassman57]

@JesusIs4Me,
Why would you say “I” rationalize the term sin to “unfruitful” works if that’s what scripture calls it? You know through my writings I do not justify evil works therefore I cannot resist or reject the help of Christ.

You say you are running the race of faith, but you don’t believe that Jesus took away your sins. You believe God removed the sins under the Mosaic Law by a scapegoats, but you don’t believe Jesus has taken away your sins (Psa. 103:12).

Sin was in the people’s terminology and mind at that time but it was not in Gods mind (Heb.8:12). Sin is breaking a law that God has justified a man to keep. You are not justified by the law to keep the law; you are justified by Christ alone. I’ve said to you before, you do not understand the scriptures. I've ask, what is the meaning of non-imputation of sins, it appears no person desire to answer, why? because they will see God is not imputing sin to believers and they will feel prideful.

I’ve said to you, if you can back up your belief with scripture that teach Jesus did not take away all sins, I will reconsider. I’ve asked you and others but you refuse to give me scriptural references to back up your belief. You show me scripture where people didn’t understand as you do not understand sin, but you will not give scripture reference to back up your claims that Jesus took away the penalty/debt of sin, but He didn’t take away sin, or all sins; either way.

 

[JesusIs4Me]

@JesusIs4Me,
Why would you say “I” rationalize the term sin to “unfruitful” works if that’s what scripture calls it?

So unfruitful works are sins then. You cannot say you had never sinned since you were saved since you admit to having unfruitful works, right?

You know through my writings I do not justify evil works therefore I cannot resist or reject the help of Christ.

Just the part where you say you had never sinned since you were saved, but yet you have unfruitful works.

You say you are running the race of faith, but you don’t believe that Jesus took away your sins. You believe God removed the sins under the Mosaic Law by a scapegoats, but you don’t believe Jesus has taken away your sins (Psa. 103:12).

I believe Jesus took away my past sins at the time of my salvation in such a way that the foundation laid by Jesus Christ can never be removed, which is why if and whenever present sins defile the temple of God, I look to Jesus Christ to forgive me of my sins and to help me not to commit them again. That is an ongoing race for me to run by faith in Jesus Christ.

You seem to be applying the taking away of sins that are past to also include present & future sins in regards to salvation. I acknowledge that the foundation can not be removed; but you are failing to acknowledge what needs to be daily removed by faith in Him off of that foundation that can defile the temple of God. That is called running the race. You cannot lose salvation, and since you are saved for why you are in that race to begin with, you need to look to Jesus in helping you lay aisde every weight & sin and stop considering sin as unfruitful works when it is still sin that you need to ask for His forgiveness for and help to keep you from your "unfruitful works" aka "sins".

Sin was in the people’s terminology and mind at that time but it was not in Gods mind (Heb.8:12). Sin is breaking a law that God has justified a man to keep. You are not justified by the law to keep the law; you are justified by Christ alone. I’ve said to you before, you do not understand the scriptures. I've ask, what is the meaning of non-imputation of sins, it appears no person desire to answer, why? because they will see God is not imputing sin to believers and they will feel prideful.

Here is an answer: the not imputing of sins means that foundation can never be removed; His seal remains; but how we build on that foundation God will still judge it.

I’ve said to you, if you can back up your belief with scripture that teach Jesus did not take away all sins, I will reconsider. I’ve asked you and others but you refuse to give me scriptural references to back up your belief. You show me scripture where people didn’t understand as you do not understand sin, but you will not give scripture reference to back up your claims that Jesus took away the penalty/debt of sin, but He didn’t take away sin, or all sins; either way.

I have given you scripture in post # 102 for all the warnings given to believers not to err and sin because why? Because they can still sin. In that same post are verses testifying to confessing our sins to Him with the promise that He will forgive us of our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

If Jesus can forgive present & future sins as if there is no need to ask for that forgiveness once saved, then why teach us that daily prayer to the Father to forgive us of our trespasses or our debts? How is it that we we warned after that prayer that if we do not forgive others of their trespasses, neither will the Father forgive us of ours?

Matthew 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. 10 Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. 11 Give us this day our daily bread. 12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. 13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen. 14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: 15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

 

[Dovegiven]

Regibassman57 wrote

Hello, here is a Biblically-grounded proof:

1. Sins incur God's wrath (1 Th. 2:16).
2. We believers are saved from wrath (1 Th. 5:9).
3. We believers are saved from the wrath (punishment) for sin (from 1 and 2).
4. The punishment for our sins has been taken away from us (from 3).
5. We sometimes know what is right to do (but nevertheless do wrong). [regibassman57 agrees, by his own confesion]
6. Knowing what is right to do, and not doing it, is sin (Jas. 4:17).
7. We sometimes sin (from 5 and 6).

There it is. Biblically-grounded proof that the punishment of sin has been taken away from us, even though we sometimes sin.

blessings...

I will add something you surely meant to include in that list. It's based on
1 John 1:8-10 + 2:1-2 (KJV)
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Chapter divisions were added to the manuscripts. Those 5 verses were meant to be read as a continual passage. Jesus' works paved the way for anyone in the world to deal with sin. He is our intercessor (advocate, defense attorney, comforter) before the Father. The work at the throne concerns ALL unrighteousness a person sinning repents over. The letter from John was to and for the benefit of Christians.

Jesus is our eternal propitiation of our sins, by appealing on the grounds of grace of God, above an act of mercy. We are helpless concerning propitiation, so the way of hope for us when we sin again is set for us through the righteousness of Jesus, our advocate.

Consider the book of Galatians. They had fallen from grace, yet Paul went way out of his way to bring them back as though once again newborn babes. His mission was to get those believers back in line. If there is no hope for a Christian that sins a sin, then the whole effort of Paul towards the Galatians was moot, a total waste of his time, doing something apart from the mind of Christ for them, therefore practicing sin himself. But of course we know that wasn't the case. God didn't cast away that Church when they went back into the "beggarly elements" without being given that benefit of propitiation.

The Galatian Church sinned, but God sent Paul to bring them back.

 

[Dovegiven]

I've never heard anyone write or say that from the moment they first were born again they knew and understood everything of the commandments of Christ they need for life, sufficiently to not require further repentance of anything. None even realized, decades for many, they could effectively submit to God, resist the devil, and expect the devil to flee. Most are taught not to believe in a literal devil, or come away taught the devil is a god who can manipulate the weather and destroy with earthquakes.

Believers must study, hear the word preached, and the Holy Spirit anoints some to teach others so as to have knowledge otherwise put off years later than needed to succeed and be of help to others. None of us has the full of all spiritual knowledge available to mortal men, all basically looking at ourselves using a corroded silver mirror.

 

[regibassman57]

@Dovegiven,
I'm not sure why you put "Regibassman57 wrote:" I didn't write anything expressed above in your post. We've been over 1John 1 many times and you haven't proven anything but you are still in your sins and Christ has done nothing for you except forgiven you of your past sins; which is no different than what the blood of bulls and goats could do. You believe Jesus has not taken away your sins in Adam, so you express "you are still in your sin" and "your faith is vain" as well as the preaching of Christ is in vain by your own admission and by scriptural confirmation.

1Co 15:14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your "faith is also vain".

1Co 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your "faith is vain;" "you are still in your sins."

I again have ask for proof of your belief that Jesus has not taken away sins, but has taken away the debt and punishment of sins. You again refuse to grant my request because it seems you have no proof. You are disguising your pride in words to prove your interpretation is truth. I say Jesus took away all sins and can prove it scripturally. You say Jesus has not taken away all sins because we still sin. You cannot prove your writting through scripture, but I can and have. I ask you to prove your belief since you desire to continue to post. Everytime you post without answering a simple request, you are showing you have a baseless belief and your faith is in vain because you cannot prove what you say. "I HAVE, CAN; AND WILL AGAIN IF YOU ASK."

Dovegiven, I have nothing against you or anyone believing as you do, but everyone attacked me for believer what I believe; so I proved what i say through scripture. Again, I've asked for others to do the same on this topic of sin and the conversation would be over. No one, for what ever reason, will reseach scripture and prove their truth, so I'm standing on my truth in Christ; what more can I do? I've said show me scripture to prove I'm wrong scripturally, but I only get more scriptures that has nothing to do with the question I asked and further presents (to me), people do not know how to prove their truth. It seems they just desire to agrue with empty and baseless scriptures. If you can help me with this, I will accept it.

 

[bibleguy]

@bibleguy,
You wrote: "There it is. Biblically-grounded proof that the punishment of sin has been taken away from us, even though we sometimes sin."

I have never disputed about the punishment being taken away ever. I've always held to scriptural fact that Jesus has taken away sins; as well as the punishment equally. I have scriptural references saying exactly what Jesus has done concerning sin as I have said. You have not produced "ANY" scriptural reference in this month backing your claim that Jesus only took away the punishment. You cannot prove sin itself has not been taken away. I've showed you verbatim Jesus took away man's sins forever; but you cannot produce.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of "sin" AND "death."

"SIN AND DEATH" I know the question I've ask is very clear. You have no answer for the question I've ask because God's word is also very clear. Jesus took away the sins of the world. You desire for scripture to say, Jesus took away the punishment of the world "only" without taking away all the sins of the world; that's not what it says.

1Jo 3:5 And you know that Jesus was manifested to "take away our sins;" and in him is no sin.

Joh 1:29 The next day John sees Jesus coming unto him, and says, Behold the Lamb of God, which "takes away the sin" of the world.

You will never find in scripture that Jesus "did not" take away "all" man's sins and only took away the punishment for sins.

Hi!

You know....I think our problem is, in part, ambiguity in your expression of language.

For example, you just claimed that " I've showed you verbatim Jesus took away man's sins forever".

However, did Jesus take away FUTURE sins I did not even commit yet? Of course not!

After all, if he already took away a FUTURE sin which I committed, then we have a CONTRADICTION!

Why a contradiction?

Because it would be true that I commited a sin in the future, and it would ALSO be true that I did NOT commit that sin in the future (because Jesus took it away).

And of course, this is a contradiction! It is ABSURD!

CONCLUSION: Jesus did NOT take away any future sin of mine that I might commit in the future, because this is LOGICALLY IMPOSSIBLE.

Even GOD can not do what is LOGICALLY IMPOSSIBLE.

Can you prove that God can do what is LOGICALLY IMPOSSIBLE?

Can you provide any Scripture that proves God can do what is LOGICALLY IMPOSSIBLE?

Of course not!

That's why your position is incorrect.

You wrote: "You will never find in scripture that Jesus "did not" take away "all" man's sins and only took away the punishment for sins."

My response: You will never find in scripture that Jesus took away our FUTURE sins!

That's why we continue to ask God to continue to forgive us of our sins (Lk. 11:4).

Why? Because he takes away all our sins as we commit them, but He does not take away our FUTURE sins because they don't even exist yet!

Do you have any scripture showing that Jesus took away our FUTURE sins?

best....

 

[regibassman57]

@bibleguy,
It’s not ambiguity; what you believe is not truth; this is why you cannot find scripture to answer my question. I respect your knowledge and I know you’ve sought scripture to help me, but as you know, there are no scripture to confirm what you believe. But you still tell me I’m wrong, though I have the scripture to prove my position.

As I’ve told another person in Christ, Jesus took away your sins over 2000 years ago when He took away the sins of the world (Joh. 1:29). When Jesus died “once,” that one time was for your sins “in Adam.” Everyman born in this world was born in Adam and inherited his imputation sins. I’m somewhat surprised at you. You believe the blood of bulls and goats could take away sin by the priest putting their hand on the head of the goat and sending it into the wilderness (among other things), but God tells you “ALL” things are possible with Him and you choose to doubt and not believe. This is how Jesus took away yours and our future sins over 2000 years ago. God predetermined in His mind that He would take away the sins of the world. Any potential wrong act a man could possibly commit against God’s law of Righteousness, He determined to put upon His Son at the cross. Instead of yearly sacrifices for sin with animals (which were not in His image or likeness), God chose someone that came in the likeness of man which could satisfy man's separation from God and calm satisfy His anger towards man forever. Christ’s death and resurrection satisfied God and He sees every believer in Christ; who has no sin in Him. The contradiction is only in your head.

You said: CONCLUSION: Jesus did NOT take away any future sin of mine that I might commit in the future, because this is LOGICALLY IMPOSSIBLE.

If Jesus didn’t take away any future sins of yours over 2000 years ago, His blood couldn’t help you when you confessed you sins. Jesus’ blood was shed once to benefit anyone that would come to Him by faith. The problem is your “carnal logic.”

You said: My response: You will never find in scripture that Jesus took away our FUTURE sins!

Heb 10:10 By the which will “we are sanctified” “through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.”

Sanctified from what once for all? “SINS”

Heb 10:11 And every priest stands daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, “which can never take away sins”:

Heb 10:12 But this man (Jesus), after “he had offered one sacrifice” “for sins forever,” sat down on the right hand of God;

Heb 10:14 For by one offering “Jesus” has “perfected forever” them that are “sanctified.”

Perfected and Sanctified from what forever? “SINS”

Heb 9:26 For then must Jesus often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now “once in the end of the world hath he appeared to “put away sin” by the sacrifice of himself.”

What does “put away” mean?

G115 (put away)
athetēsis
From G114; “cancellation” (literally or figuratively): - “disannulling,” put away.

1Jo 3:5 And you know that he was manifested to "take away our sins;" and in him is no sin.

G142 (take away)
airō
A primary verb; to lift; by implication to take up or away; figuratively to raise (the voice), keep in suspense (the mind); specifically to sail away (that is, weigh anchor); by Hebraism (compare [H5375]) to expiate sin: - away with, bear (up), carry, lift up, loose, make to doubt, put away, remove, take (away, up).

 

[regibassman57]

@Life,
What was the purpose of Jesus Christ's death and resurrection? Was it to take away the sin debt, (the punishment for sin), or was it to take away sin and the debt which was death?

Rom. 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free (liberated) from the law of sin and death. (BOTH)

What was the goat and the scapegoats purpose regarding sin for the Atonement under the law?

Goat #1 "Sacrifice"
Jesus shed His blood, died and paid the debt for the sins of man satisfying the penalty and punishment of death for man's sins. This was done to deliver man from his debt owed to God by his sins/offenses.

Goat #2 "Azazel" (Scapegoat)
Jesus was also the scapegoat that took the sins of man away from him forever; which the blood of bulls and goats were unable to do. This was done for man's justification from sin and to bring in GOD'S Everlasting Righteousness to be imputed unto every believers in Christ (Dan. 9:24).

Jesus paid the penalty for the sins of the world, but He also was the scapegoat that took away the sins of the world. These are two separate functions regarding sin.

Rom.4:25
Jesus was delivered for our offences, and was "raised" again for our justification.

1 Cor.15:17
And if Christ "be not raised," your faith is vain; "you are still in your sins."

Which means a person that believes they still sin in their minds, (deceptively thinking), Christ has not risen to take away their sins because they still sin. They do not believe by faith what Jesus has done.

 

[regibassman57]

@JesusIs4Me,
You said: So unfruitful works are sins then. You cannot say you had never sinned since you were saved since you admit to having unfruitful works, right?

Unfruitful works are not sin, but are errant works that God does not impute sin to. If a believer was under/justified by the law, unfruitful works would be known as sin, but because believers are not under/justified by the law they are not transgressing the law.. Unfruitful works are works that do not develop the character of Christ and God is not concluding a believer to have sinned, therefore, He will not separate Himself from that believer. Sin, on the other hand, God imputes to a person’s account, separates Himself from that person until they are cleansed from their sin and will punish that person with death if the person is unrepentant of that sin.

I’ve always stated God is not imputing sin unto believers in Christ. If God is not imputing sin, I don’t call it sin, I call it unfruitful works because that’s what Christ calls it; or dead works. If a believer says they sin, they are ignorantly saying they are condemned because sin is condemned.

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, “condemned sin” in the flesh:

I noticed you mention that sin defiles the temple of God. Sin comes from the heart of man, so if you say you sin it comes from your heart. The heart is the inner man of the born again believer and you said it can be defiled; which also means corrupted. Scriptures does not teach that the inner man of a believer or his heart can be corrupted.

1Pe 3:4 But let it be the “hidden man of the heart,” in “that which is not corruptible,” even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.

I do not need to daily ask Jesus to forgive my sins because I am forgiven past, present and future. You believe even your present sins are not forgiven; that’s not what scriptures teach.

1Jo 2:12 I write unto you, little children, because “your sins are forgiven” (present tense) you for his name's sake.

Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, “having forgiven you all trespasses”; (Not only past, present but “all” sins means “all”) You don’t believe what Jesus has done on the cross.

You said: Here is an answer: the not imputing of sins means that foundation can never be removed;

Where in scripture can I confirm what you’ve just wrote saying; "the non-imputing of sins means that foundation can never be removed."

The sum of what you wrote in your post #102 is just what you said, warnings teaching a believer should not sin. You haven’t proven anything but the bible says people sin.



I’ll be writing another post for the Lord’s Prayer.

 

[Dave M]

Can a true Christian sin or not?

Yes, he can sin

• 1 John 1:8-10
  • "If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us." (NASB)
  • "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us." (NKJV)

No, he cannot sin

• 1 John 3:9,
  • "No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." (NASB)
  • "Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God." (NKJV)
• 1 John 5:18,
  • "We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him and the evil one does not touch him." (NASB)
  • "We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him." (NKJV)

Is John contradicting himself when he says in one verse that if we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves (1 John 1:8), and yet he also says the one who is a Christian cannot sin (1 John 3:9; 5:18 NKJV)? There is no contradiction, but to see why we will need to look at the original Greek language.

Analysis

I have bolded the words above on which I would like to focus. In 1 John 3:9, the Greek word ποιεῖ (poiei) means to do, to practice. The V3SPAI is shorthand for Verb, 3rd Person Singular, Present, Active, Indicative. Likewise, VPAN means, Verb, Present, Active, Indicative.

ποιέωa: a marker of an agent relation with a numerable event—‘to do, to perform, to practice, to make.’ διδάσκων καὶ πορείαν ποιούμενος εἰς Ιεροσόλυμα ‘teaching as he made a journey to Jerusalem’ Lk 13:22; οἱ μαθηταὶ Ἰωάννου νηστεύουσιν πυκνὰ καὶ δεήσεις ποιοῦνται ‘John’s disciples often fast and pray’ Lk 5:33; τῷ σῷ ὀνόματι δυνάμεις πολλὰς ἐποιήσαμεν ‘in your name we did many miracles’ Mt 7:22; πίστει πεποίηκεν τὸ πάσχα ‘by faith he performed the Passover’ Heb 11:28.3​

So we see that the word means to do, to practice. But that isn't all. In Greek, like English, there are verb tenses: past, present, future. But in Greek, the present tense is not quite the same as the English. Instead, it is more a continuous action.

Present tense: "The verb tense where the writer portrays an action in process or a state of being with no assessment of the action’s completion."4​

​

Finally, in 1 John 3:9 we see an infinitive form of a verb. The infinitive is "to go," "to see," "to eat," etc. This is important.​

​

"And he cannot sin (και οὐ δυναται ἁμαρτανειν [kai ou dunatai hamartanein]). This is a wrong translation, for this English naturally means “and he cannot commit sin” as if it were και οὐ δυναται ἁμαρτειν [kai ou dunatai hamartein] or ἁμαρτησαι [hamartēsai] (second aorist or first aorist active infinitive). The present active infinitive ἁμαρτανειν [hamartanein] can only mean “and he cannot go on sinning,” as is true of ἁμαρτανει [hamartanei] in verse 8 and ἁμαρτανων [hamartanōn] in verse 6.5​

Conclusion

There is no contradiction. What is happening is that John is saying that the one who is born again does not habitually abide in sin. He may fall into it, but he does not practice it as a lifestyle. The nuances of the Greek language are not carried over to the English, but when we understand what is happening, we then see there is no problem.
Finally, any Christian who would say that he does not sin anymore fails to agree with 1 John 1:8 which says, "If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us." He would then be self-deceived.

Article source: Can a true Christian sin or not? | CARM.org

@Chad wanted to thankyou for posting this wonderful truth and Praise Jesus !!

 

[JesusIs4Me]

@Dovegiven,
I'm not sure why you put "Regibassman57 wrote:" I didn't write anything expressed above in your post. We've been over 1John 1 many times and you haven't proven anything but you are still in your sins and Christ has done nothing for you except forgiven you of your past sins; which is no different than what the blood of bulls and goats could do. You believe Jesus has not taken away your sins in Adam, so you express "you are still in your sin" and "your faith is vain" as well as the preaching of Christ is in vain by your own admission and by scriptural confirmation.

1Co 15:14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your "faith is also vain".

1Co 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your "faith is vain;" "you are still in your sins."

I again have ask for proof of your belief that Jesus has not taken away sins, but has taken away the debt and punishment of sins. You again refuse to grant my request because it seems you have no proof. You are disguising your pride in words to prove your interpretation is truth. I say Jesus took away all sins and can prove it scripturally. You say Jesus has not taken away all sins because we still sin. You cannot prove your writting through scripture, but I can and have. I ask you to prove your belief since you desire to continue to post. Everytime you post without answering a simple request, you are showing you have a baseless belief and your faith is in vain because you cannot prove what you say. "I HAVE, CAN; AND WILL AGAIN IF YOU ASK."

Dovegiven, I have nothing against you or anyone believing as you do, but everyone attacked me for believer what I believe; so I proved what i say through scripture. Again, I've asked for others to do the same on this topic of sin and the conversation would be over. No one, for what ever reason, will reseach scripture and prove their truth, so I'm standing on my truth in Christ; what more can I do? I've said show me scripture to prove I'm wrong scripturally, but I only get more scriptures that has nothing to do with the question I asked and further presents (to me), people do not know how to prove their truth. It seems they just desire to agrue with empty and baseless scriptures. If you can help me with this, I will accept it.

In all respect, the 1 Co 15:17 reference can just be seen to only apply to past sins that were not forgiven if that believer's faith in Him has been made void in Him for not having been risen; therefore, he remains in sin for that effect of sin which is death and then the second death.

What can harmonize all the scripture in regards to the remission of sins in order to receive the promise of the Holy Spirit at our salvation to our necessity to ask Him for the forgiveness of sins and fro relying on His help to lay aside every weight & sin in running that race, placing our confidence in Him to finish His work in us and thus finishing the race to His glory and to His honor in Heaven to the glory of God the Father?

We have been reconciled with God thru Jesus Christ by believing in Him and that God had raised Him from the dead; thereby having the remission of sins that are past in receiving the promise of the forever indwelling Holy Ghost and thus eternal life.

Now that our body is the temple of God and that foundation has been laid by Jesus Christ with that seal of adoption that is not going anywhere, we are CALLED to LIVE that reconciled relationship with God thru Jesus Christ by looking to the author & finisher of our faith to help us lay aside very weight & sin because that is HOW you live that reconciled relationship with God thru Jesus Christ; a life of repentance as His disciple which includes doing good or else it is sin.

Living that reconciled relationship with God has nothing to do with salvation; that remission of sins in laying that foundation is done and that seal of adoption; the Holy Spirit, is forever, but while down in this imperfect flesh, being in this corruptible flesh, we can still be tempted to sin and can sin for which we are to look to Jesus Christ all the time in running that race for the high prize of our calling to be received as a vessel unto honor in His House at the Marriage Supper.

1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

So are we still in this corruptible flesh? Paul says so. Jesus prepared His disciples by teaching that prayer to the Father so they can continue to run that race and not let sin or "unfruitful works" stop them from running that race any more.

 

[regibassman57]

@JesusIs4Me,
You said: In all respect, the 1 Co 15:17 reference can just be seen to only apply to past sins that were not forgiven if that believer's faith in Him has been made void in Him for not having been risen; therefore, he remains in sin for that effect of sin which is death and then the second death.

Your incorrect in your thought. If 1 Co. 15:17 was only for past sins, Paul would not have said in the context that man's preaching would be in vain. The preaching is the Gospel preached starting from the Old Testament and confirmed by the disciples. If the preaching of Christ is in vain, you could never be forgiven of your sins because jesus would be like other so-called gods that have never risen from the dead, they are still in their graves. Sins would not have been removed through Jesus Christ death and resurrection. If Jesus didn't rise from the dead, your faith and preaching is in vain and you are still in your sins.

You do not realize in your mind that over 2000 years ago Jesus was offered as the sacrifice; not yesterday, daily or yearly. Over two thousand years ago your sins were forgiven and removed. If your sins were not removed Jesus would have to die for your sin again. One sacrifice was made for sins forever. God didn’t store away blood for the people’s sins to be forgiven without a sacrifice. Israel’s sacrifices were for their past sins yearly; Jesus’ sacrifice could only be for your future sins because you were not born in the time of that “ONE” sacrifice. If Jesus died for your sins yesterday, in your thinking, he would have to die today in order to forgive the sins you’ve committed today. Jesus forgave the sins of the world over 2000 years ago past, present and future. Not just the people’s sins then, but for everlasting, this is why there is no more offerings for sins.

Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

Heb 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

I'll address the rest when I get back. Happy Thanksgiving!

 

[bibleguy]

@bibleguy,
It’s not ambiguity; what you believe is not truth; this is why you cannot find scripture to answer my question. I respect your knowledge and I know you’ve sought scripture to help me, but as you know, there are no scripture to confirm what you believe. But you still tell me I’m wrong, though I have the scripture to prove my position.

As I’ve told another person in Christ, Jesus took away your sins over 2000 years ago when He took away the sins of the world (Joh. 1:29). When Jesus died “once,” that one time was for your sins “in Adam.” Everyman born in this world was born in Adam and inherited his imputation sins. I’m somewhat surprised at you. You believe the blood of bulls and goats could take away sin by the priest putting their hand on the head of the goat and sending it into the wilderness (among other things), but God tells you “ALL” things are possible with Him and you choose to doubt and not believe. This is how Jesus took away yours and our future sins over 2000 years ago. God predetermined in His mind that He would take away the sins of the world. Any potential wrong act a man could possibly commit against God’s law of Righteousness, He determined to put upon His Son at the cross. Instead of yearly sacrifices for sin with animals (which were not in His image or likeness), God chose someone that came in the likeness of man which could satisfy man's separation from God and calm satisfy His anger towards man forever. Christ’s death and resurrection satisfied God and He sees every believer in Christ; who has no sin in Him. The contradiction is only in your head.

You said: CONCLUSION: Jesus did NOT take away any future sin of mine that I might commit in the future, because this is LOGICALLY IMPOSSIBLE.

If Jesus didn’t take away any future sins of yours over 2000 years ago, His blood couldn’t help you when you confessed you sins. Jesus’ blood was shed once to benefit anyone that would come to Him by faith. The problem is your “carnal logic.”

You said: My response: You will never find in scripture that Jesus took away our FUTURE sins!

Heb 10:10 By the which will “we are sanctified” “through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.”

Sanctified from what once for all? “SINS”

Heb 10:11 And every priest stands daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, “which can never take away sins”:

Heb 10:12 But this man (Jesus), after “he had offered one sacrifice” “for sins forever,” sat down on the right hand of God;

Heb 10:14 For by one offering “Jesus” has “perfected forever” them that are “sanctified.”

Perfected and Sanctified from what forever? “SINS”

Heb 9:26 For then must Jesus often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now “once in the end of the world hath he appeared to “put away sin” by the sacrifice of himself.”

What does “put away” mean?

G115 (put away)
athetēsis
From G114; “cancellation” (literally or figuratively): - “disannulling,” put away.

1Jo 3:5 And you know that he was manifested to "take away our sins;" and in him is no sin.

G142 (take away)
airō
A primary verb; to lift; by implication to take up or away; figuratively to raise (the voice), keep in suspense (the mind); specifically to sail away (that is, weigh anchor); by Hebraism (compare [H5375]) to expiate sin: - away with, bear (up), carry, lift up, loose, make to doubt, put away, remove, take (away, up).

Hi! Happy Thanksgiving!

You wrote: "this is why you cannot find scripture to answer my question."

My response: Don't be silly! I gave you a clearly Biblically-grounded logically-justified Scriptural ANSWER to your question.

Here it is again:

1. Sins incur God's wrath (1 Th. 2:16).
2. We believers are saved from wrath (1 Th. 5:9).
3. We believers are saved from the wrath (punishment) for sin (from 1 and 2).
4. The punishment for our sins has been taken away from us (from 3).
5. We sometimes know what is right to do (but nevertheless do wrong). [regibassman57 agrees, by his own confesion]
6. Knowing what is right to do, and not doing it, is sin (Jas. 4:17).
7. We sometimes sin (from 5 and 6).

There it is. Biblically-grounded proof that the punishment of sin has been taken away from us, even though we sometimes sin.

I have no clue why you would say my position is not Scriptural!


You wrote: "But you still tell me I’m wrong, though I have the scripture to prove my position."

My response: You have Scripture to prove that it is false that "the punishment of sin has been taken away from us, even though we sometimes sin" ?

Let's test you on that claim!


You wrote: "Jesus took away your sins over 2000 years ago when He took away the sins of the world (Joh. 1:29)."

My response: Nope! Jn. 1:29 does NOT state that Jesus took away FUTURE sins. Where does it say "FUTURE"? Nowhere! You just made that up.


You wrote: "When Jesus died “once,” that one time was for your sins “in Adam.” "

My response: That doesn't prove Jesus took away FUTURE sins which did not even occur yet! You just made that up.


You wrote: "You believe the blood of bulls and goats could take away sin by the priest putting their hand on the head of the goat and sending it into the wilderness (among other things)..."

My response: I ALREADY told you that I don't think that the animal sacrifices "take away" sins...but that they merely ATONE (cover) for sins.

Thus, you have mischaracterized my position.


You wrote: "God tells you “ALL” things are possible with Him and you choose to doubt and not believe."

My response: Of course all THINGS are possible! But, that doesn't prove that LOGICAL IMPOSSIBILITIES are THINGS!

WHERE does Scripture state that LOGICAL IMPOSSIBILITIES are THINGS?

Answer: NOWHERE!

Thus you (again) are guilty of unjustified presuppositions.

That's what keeps derailing your theology. You are unaware (and uncritical) of the UNJUSTIFIED assumptions you bring to the table.

So the burden of proof is upon you, my friend! WHERE does Scripture state that a LOGICAL IMPOSSIBILITY is a THING? (answer: nowhere!)

But go ahead, see if you can find any Scripture to prove it!

Can you find any Scripture to prove this?

If not, then YOU are guilty of unjustified assumptions....

And if you must rely upon unjustified assumptions to make your point, then your theology is unjustified, and that's why I refuse to accept it.

Due I lack faith? Of course not!

Do YOU lack justification for your unjustified assumptions? Absolutely!

See my point now?


You wrote: "This is how Jesus took away yours and our future sins over 2000 years ago."

My response: There is no Scripture which states that "Jesus took away my future sins over 2000 years ago". You just made that up (with your unjustified assumptions).


You wrote: "The contradiction is only in your head."

My response: The contradiction is in YOUR head.

Here's the proof:

1. Regibassman57 requires Scriptural PROOF for one's theological beliefs.
2. Regibassman57 has the theological belief that LOGICAL IMPOSSIBILITIES are THINGS.
3. Regibassman57 does NOT have Scriptural proof that LOGICAL IMPOSSIBILITIES are THINGS.
4. Regibassman57 has a theological belief which CONTRADICTS his own requirements for theological beliefs.

There it is! POSITIVE PROOF of the contradiction in Regibassman57's theology.


You wrote: "If Jesus didn’t take away any future sins of yours over 2000 years ago, His blood couldn’t help you when you confessed you sins."

My response: Wrong! If Jesus took away my future sins 2000 years ago, then I DO NOT NEED to confess any sins, because He would have ALREADY TAKEN THEM AWAY.

You can't confess a sin that doesn't exist!

My sin doesn't exist if Jesus already took it away 2000 years ago!

Your position makes no sense.

Why would I bother to confess a sin if it's already taken away?

That's silly.


You wrote: "Jesus’ blood was shed once to benefit anyone that would come to Him by faith. The problem is your “carnal logic.” "

My response: Cool! YOU can believe any unjustified silliness you like! All you need to do is accuse someone of "carnal logic"....

Sorry buddy!

It doesn't work that way.

Where's your proof that my logic is "carnal"?

What's your definition of "carnal" logic?

What is acceptable logic, according to you?

Do you even know what logic is?

You KNOW I won't let you get away with sloppy thinking!

Now, step up to the plate and set forth your case....this time you need to JUSTIFY your logic and explain why my logic is "carnal".

Until then, you haven't even bothered to justify your (incorrect) accusation.


You wrote: "Heb 10:10 By the which will “we are sanctified” “through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.” Sanctified from what once for all? “SINS” "

My response: Sure we are sanctified. That does NOT prove that Jesus took away FUTURE sins that did not even occur yet!

You just made that up.

Try again!


You wrote: "Heb 10:11 And every priest stands daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, “which can never take away sins”:"

My response: Of course. I already agreed with this.


You wrote: "Heb 10:12 But this man (Jesus), after “he had offered one sacrifice” “for sins forever,” sat down on the right hand of God;"

My response: Of COURSE Jesus made one sacrifice for sins forever.

That does NOT prove that future sins are already taken away!

That just proves that IF any future sins occur, then Jesus' sacrifice will be able to apply to those sins and take those sins away.

Again, you keep twisting Scriptures into your preconceived notions, without accounting for legitimate alternative hermeneutical possibilities.

WHERE does Heb. 10:12 state that FUTURE sins were already taken away? NOWHERE! You just made that up.

Jesus' sacrifice is able to take away any future sins when they happen at that FUTURE time, IF people confess those sins; THIS is an alternative possibility that is ALSO consistent with Scripture....you just don't like it, yet you oppose it without proper justification.


You wrote: "Heb 10:14 For by one offering “Jesus” has “perfected forever” them that are “sanctified.” "

My response: WHERE does this Scripture state that FUTURE sins are ALREADY taken away? Nowhere! You just made that up.

Sure, we are perfected forever and we are sanctified. Why? Because IF we commit any future sin, then Jesus can make sure it is taken away (IF I confess it) at that time.


You wrote: "
Heb 9:26 For then must Jesus often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now “once in the end of the world hath he appeared to “put away sin” by the sacrifice of himself.”

What does “put away” mean?

G115 (put away)
athetēsis
From G114; “cancellation” (literally or figuratively): - “disannulling,” put away. "

My response: GREAT! Jesus did what only HE could do to make sure that all of our EXISTING sins are "put away" and "cancelled".

WHERE does Heb. 9:26 state that this means that FUTURE sins (which have not even occurred yet!) have ALREADY been put away? Nowhere!

You have BLINDLY assumed that FUTURE SINS are something that already exist and can be "put away".

WHERE does Heb. 9:26 state that FUTURE sins already exist? Nowhere! You just keep making this up!

PLEASE stop making things up....your bogus hermeneutics is getting REALLY tiresome...


You wrote: "
1Jo 3:5 And you know that he was manifested to "take away our sins;" and in him is no sin.

G142 (take away)
airō
A primary verb; to lift; by implication to take up or away; figuratively to raise (the voice), keep in suspense (the mind); specifically to sail away (that is, weigh anchor); by Hebraism (compare [H5375]) to expiate sin: - away with, bear (up), carry, lift up, loose, make to doubt, put away, remove, take (away, up).[/QUOTE] "

My response: GREAT! Jesus appeared to TAKE AWAY our existing sins. WHERE does 1 Jn. 3:5 state that Jesus ALREADY took away sins which did NOT even occur yet? NOWHERE! You just made that up.

You have BLINDLY assumed that FUTURE SINS ALREADY EXIST. They don't!

And, you can NOT take something away if it does NOT even exist!

That's why you're wrong.

You've WRONGLY assumed that 1 Jn. 3:5 is talking about FUTURE SINS as ALREADY EXISTING such they can already have been TAKEN AWAY.

WHERE does 1 Jn. 3:5 state that future sins ALREADY exist such that they can already have been taken away? NOWHERE! That's just the same old UNJUSTIFIED presupposition which you stubbornly inject into Scriptures all over the place.

Please stop!

You can't prove your point by making the same old unjustified presuppositions over and over again.

Rather, you need to JUSTIFY your presupposition so that other people can why it's true!

AND, if you can NOT justify that presupposition, then your position remains UNJUSTIFIED.

Please! Get better at thinking....it would make this dialogue a LOT less arduous....

OK....happy thanksgiving!

blessings....

 

[JesusIs4Me]

@JesusIs4Me,
You said: In all respect, the 1 Co 15:17 reference can just be seen to only apply to past sins that were not forgiven if that believer's faith in Him has been made void in Him for not having been risen; therefore, he remains in sin for that effect of sin which is death and then the second death.

Your incorrect in your thought. If 1 Co. 15:17 was only for past sins, Paul would not have said in the context that man's preaching would be in vain. The preaching is the Gospel preached starting from the Old Testament and confirmed by the disciples. If the preaching of Christ is in vain, you could never be forgiven of your sins because jesus would be like other so-called gods that have never risen from the dead, they are still in their graves. Sins would not have been removed through Jesus Christ death and resurrection. If Jesus didn't rise from the dead, your faith and preaching is in vain and you are still in your sins.

You do not realize in your mind that over 2000 years ago Jesus was offered as the sacrifice; not yesterday, daily or yearly. Over two thousand years ago your sins were forgiven and removed. If your sins were not removed Jesus would have to die for your sin again. One sacrifice was made for sins forever. God didn’t store away blood for the people’s sins to be forgiven without a sacrifice. Israel’s sacrifices were for their past sins yearly; Jesus’ sacrifice could only be for your future sins because you were not born in the time of that “ONE” sacrifice. If Jesus died for your sins yesterday, in your thinking, he would have to die today in order to forgive the sins you’ve committed today. Jesus forgave the sins of the world over 2000 years ago past, present and future. Not just the people’s sins then, but for everlasting, this is why there is no more offerings for sins.

Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

Heb 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

I'll address the rest when I get back. Happy Thanksgiving!

I would think because of that foundation that can never be removed, those who do not repent from iniquity before the Bridegroom comes, the Bridegroom will purge those unrepentant sins off of that foundation and so in that sense, all sins will be forgiven because that foundation remains and yet the consequence for not running that race is being found NOT abiding in Him & His word and thus found as a defiled temple of God which the physical body will be destroyed, albeit the spirit is saved in the day of Jesus Christ.

So in one sense as far as salvation goes, we can never lose it regardless of the sins on that foundation after a believer has been saved but that is what running the race is all about to live that reconciled relationship with God thru Jesus Christ in looking to Him to help us discern and to depart from iniquity by laying aside every weight & sin for the high prized of our calling and that is to be received by the Bridegroom as a vessel unto honor in His House to attend the Marriage Supper in Heaven at the pre great trib rapture event.

 

[regibassman57]

@bibleguy,
I've asked you to show me scripture that teaches Jesus took away the penalty for sins, but did "not take" away sins? I've been asking you to contradict what scriptures teach Jesus did on the cross regarding sin. If scripture says Jesus took away sins, I need you to give me scriptures that teach Jesus only covered sins, or died on the cross for man's past sins only or Jesus only died for the penalty of sin.

You said:
My response: Don't be silly! I gave you a clearly Biblically-grounded logically-justified Scriptural ANSWER to your question.

Here it is again:

1. Sins incur God's wrath (1 Th. 2:16).
2. We believers are saved from wrath (1 Th. 5:9).
3. We believers are saved from the wrath (punishment) for sin (from 1 and 2).
4. The punishment for our sins has been taken away from us (from 3).
5. We sometimes know what is right to do (but nevertheless do wrong).
6. Knowing what is right to do, and not doing it, is sin (Jas. 4:17).
7. We sometimes sin (from 5 and 6).

There it is. Biblically-grounded proof that the punishment of sin has been taken away from us, even though we sometimes sin.

You've answered the first part of the question which there was no dispute about. Now if you can answer the second part of the question we can possibly be on the same page

 

[JesusIs4Me]

@bibleguy,
I've asked you to show me scripture that teaches Jesus took away the penalty for sins, but did "not take" away sins? I've been asking you to contradict what scriptures teach Jesus did on the cross regarding sin. If scripture says Jesus took away sins, I need you to give me scriptures that teach Jesus only covered sins, or died on the cross for man's past sins only or Jesus only died for the penalty of sin.

You said:
My response: Don't be silly! I gave you a clearly Biblically-grounded logically-justified Scriptural ANSWER to your question.

Here it is again:

1. Sins incur God's wrath (1 Th. 2:16).
2. We believers are saved from wrath (1 Th. 5:9).
3. We believers are saved from the wrath (punishment) for sin (from 1 and 2).
4. The punishment for our sins has been taken away from us (from 3).
5. We sometimes know what is right to do (but nevertheless do wrong).
6. Knowing what is right to do, and not doing it, is sin (Jas. 4:17).
7. We sometimes sin (from 5 and 6).

There it is. Biblically-grounded proof that the punishment of sin has been taken away from us, even though we sometimes sin.

You've answered the first part of the question which there was no dispute about. Now if you can answer the second part of the question we can possibly be on the same page

How do you apply the warning God has given to the church at Thyatira if what you say is true?

Revelation 2:18-25 KJV

How can God judge a church He recognizes and yet finding fault, warns them to repent of their spiritual fornication or else be cast into the bed of the great tribulation because He will judge every church according to their works?

Does it mean those left behind are not saved having been denied by Him at the pre great trib rapture event when the Bridegroom has come to judge His House first? No. It means because of that iniquity that denies Him, ( Titus 1:16 KJV ) they will be denied by Him ( 2 Timothy 2:12 KJV ) to attend the Marriage Supper in Heaven ( Luke 13:24-30 KJV ) for being workers of iniquity ( Matthew 7:21-23 KJV )

So ask yourself how those who profess Him and did wonderful works in His name, be denied by Him unless there was iniquity on that foundation that causes them to be denied by Him? They did not lose their salvation because the foundation remains, but surely it shows the consequence for not running that race in acknowledging our need of Him to forgive us of our sins, to keep us from our sins, and to help us lay aside every weight or provision that would tempt us to sin.

This is where the vessels unto dishonor comes from that are still in His House; because of that foundation which can never be removed and because of that seal of adoption; the Holy Spirit is not going anywhere per that purchased possession hence past, present, future sins will be forgiven as in purged by Him off of that foundation even though there is no loss of salvation, but because they defiled the temple of God, their physical bodies will be destroyed; hence physical death. They will miss out on the first fruit of the resurrection in being left behind, but they will be resurrected after the great tribulation as vessels unto dishonor in His House to serve the King of kings on earth for the millennium reign of Christ.

So that past, present, future sins forgive as meaning eternal salvation that you are talking about can be seen in that wise for those left behind for being in unrepentant iniquity, because He still abides in them in order to bring them Home.

 

[regibassman57]

@JesusIs4Me,
Where do you see God judging any man for their sins in Christ?
Scriptures teach that God will judge men for their works not for sin. Sin has already been judged and condemned.

John 12:31
Now is the judgment of this world:now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

John 16:11
Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

Romans 8:3
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

 

[Dovegiven]

@Dovegiven,
I'm not sure why you put "Regibassman57 wrote:" I didn't write anything expressed above in your post. We've been over 1John 1 many times and you haven't proven anything but you are still in your sins and Christ has done nothing for you except forgiven you of your past sins; which is no different than what the blood of bulls and goats could do. You believe Jesus has not taken away your sins in Adam, so you express "you are still in your sin" and "your faith is vain" as well as the preaching of Christ is in vain by your own admission and by scriptural confirmation.

1Co 15:14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your "faith is also vain".

1Co 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your "faith is vain;" "you are still in your sins."

I again have ask for proof of your belief that Jesus has not taken away sins, but has taken away the debt and punishment of sins. You again refuse to grant my request because it seems you have no proof. You are disguising your pride in words to prove your interpretation is truth. I say Jesus took away all sins and can prove it scripturally. You say Jesus has not taken away all sins because we still sin. You cannot prove your writting through scripture, but I can and have. I ask you to prove your belief since you desire to continue to post. Everytime you post without answering a simple request, you are showing you have a baseless belief and your faith is in vain because you cannot prove what you say. "I HAVE, CAN; AND WILL AGAIN IF YOU ASK."

Dovegiven, I have nothing against you or anyone believing as you do, but everyone attacked me for believer what I believe; so I proved what i say through scripture. Again, I've asked for others to do the same on this topic of sin and the conversation would be over. No one, for what ever reason, will reseach scripture and prove their truth, so I'm standing on my truth in Christ; what more can I do? I've said show me scripture to prove I'm wrong scripturally, but I only get more scriptures that has nothing to do with the question I asked and further presents (to me), people do not know how to prove their truth. It seems they just desire to agrue with empty and baseless scriptures. If you can help me with this, I will accept it.

I think you have the whole thread terribly misinterpreted. You missed it big time with me. I'll hope you go back reading it all over again like I did, then maybe respond to your assumptions in this post. Again, Post #1 by Chad covers the topic without need of our help.