Can God do this?

[Kirby D. P.]

Hello. Polite atheist here. A notion occurred to me and I’m interested in any thoughts you might have in light of it. I promise I am not here trolling. I don’t have any preconceived answer I’m looking for, and please don’t take any offense in it. Let me assure you, none is intended.

Generally speaking, when God is ascribed omnipotence, it is understood he can do anything that is possible to do. It’s no “fault” he cannot perform logically flawed propositions. No one should expect God to be able to make a four-sided triangle. BY DEFINITION, a triangle has three sides. It’s similar to the ham handed “catch 22,” “Can God create a stone so massive he himself can’t lift it?” It’s not an example of a “bad” God, just a shining example of a very bad question.

Another trait commonly attributed to God is omnipresence –– he is everywhere at all times. There is neither microscopic nook nor cranny in the cosmos beyond his reach. He is there this moment because he has always been there and was even so before THERE was there.

My question may seem at first like the nonsensical syllogisms mentioned above. But I think there is a difference.

Can God fashion a box inside which he is not present, and into which he cannot, or does not, penetrate? It may seem abstract and wrongheaded. Except: I know I CAN fashion such a box. One that excludes me from its contents and within which I cannot see unless I look.

Appreciative of any thoughts.

 

[Snowrose]

Hello Kirby...

A joy and a delight to meet you. I love your question but I know that I won't be able to answer it. But I am sure in my heart that your question delighted the Lord. It is like a child asking his dad..."Can you do this?" In the eye of the child, their dad is a superhero.

I came across Psalm 139 in the Passion Translation and I wanted to share verses 1-18 with you....

1 Lord, you know everything there is to know about me.
2 You perceive every movement of my heart and soul, and you understand my every thought before it even enters my mind.
3–4 You are so intimately aware of me, Lord. You read my heart like an open book
and you know all the words I’m about to speak before I even start a sentence!
You know every step I will take before my journey even begins.
5 You’ve gone into my future to prepare the way, and in kindness you follow behind me
to spare me from the harm of my past. With your hand of love upon my life, you impart a blessing to me.
6 This is just too wonderful, deep, and incomprehensible! Your understanding of me brings me wonder and strength.
7 Where could I go from your Spirit? Where could I run and hide from your face?
8 If I go up to heaven, you’re there! If I go down to the realm of the dead, you’re there too!
9 If I fly with wings into the shining dawn, you’re there! If I fly into the radiant sunset, you’re there waiting!
10 Wherever I go, your hand will guide me; your strength will empower me.
11 It’s impossible to disappear from you or to ask the darkness to hide me, for your presence is everywhere, bringing light into my night.
12 There is no such thing as darkness with you. The night, to you, is as bright as the day; there’s no difference between the two.
13 You formed my innermost being, shaping my delicate inside and my intricate outside, and wove them all together in my mother’s womb.
14 I thank you, God, for making me so mysteriously complex! Everything you do is marvelously breathtaking. It simply amazes me to think about it! How thoroughly you know me, Lord!
15 You even formed every bone in my body when you created me in the secret place, carefully, skillfully shaping me from nothing to something.
16 You saw who you created me to be before I became me! Before I’d ever seen the light of day, the number of days you planned for me were already recorded in your book.
17–18 Every single moment you are thinking of me! How precious and wonderful to consider that you cherish me constantly in your every thought!
O God, your desires toward me are more than the grains of sand on every shore! When I awake each morning, you’re still with me.

Keep on asking your questions, Kirby. It just shows a searching heart and that delights the Father. And no worries... He will show you the answer.

Blessings, Snowrose

 

[twcstp111]

Acts 17:28
For in him we live and move and have our being.


Friend,
When you are able to live by your own substance, living without need of light or dark, food or water, then let Him know that He doesn't give us our needs every day. See, even the trees themselves breath and give breath, and in their doing so we also have our breath in them.

I thank God for breath (I am still breathing as I type this message for you).

See, our words are a medium for understanding, but be careful not to deceive your self with your own imagination. I stick my hand in a fire, I get burned. I fall off an angled cliff, and by it I am scourged with many lacerations of my flesh and receive fractures to my bones. I am cut by a knife while preparing food, I bleed.

Oh, understanding! Ah, wisdom!

I will KEEP my hand OUT of the fire.
I will KEEP my feet planted sturdily on the ground when I am next to cliffs.
I will BE diligent when preparing food with sharp objects.

Who tells me to follow these rules anyway, who tells me things nobody has ever spoken before, like how drinking coffee with crude motor oil is madness--no, really? Ah, just try it you'll be fine!

Is not even our own imagination from Him, even logic? Indeed, if you read the Bible and consider what truth is then you'll learn things which were hidden to your eyes and your ears. Besides, unless I were an atheist for an opinion then how absurd is the logic in it, considering that even the word atheist came from another person's dividing, compartmentalizing, defining, contrasting, and comparing of what they perceive in their self. See, if I ask, why must needs be an atheist declare it that they have no faith in God except it were so that they are proud of their faith and wish for others to see it and perhaps adopt it too; if it were really so, why even share it?

I had a time when I also called my own self an atheist, not because it was what I believed but because they were words which brought me comforts; I quickly learned how stupid it was, even the whole system of principles by which the belief stands--oh, that's right--atheism doesn't actually have any principles, neither understand nor wisdom, so above all else, it's just an empty word with no truth in it--it is good only for the stumbling of others.

Kirby, before you or I, or anybody of the past two thousand years defined what a 'triangle' is 'by definition,' God has already made a four-sided triangle:

 

[Kirby D. P.]

Hello Kirby...

A joy and a delight to meet you. I love your question but I know that I won't be able to answer it. But I am sure in my heart that your question delighted the Lord. It is like a child asking his dad..."Can you do this?" In the eye of the child, their dad is a superhero.

I came across Psalm 139 in the Passion Translation and I wanted to share verses 1-18 with you....

1 Lord, you know everything there is to know about me.
2 You perceive every movement of my heart and soul, and you understand my every thought before it even enters my mind.
3–4 You are so intimately aware of me, Lord. You read my heart like an open book
and you know all the words I’m about to speak before I even start a sentence!
You know every step I will take before my journey even begins.
5 You’ve gone into my future to prepare the way, and in kindness you follow behind me
to spare me from the harm of my past. With your hand of love upon my life, you impart a blessing to me.
6 This is just too wonderful, deep, and incomprehensible! Your understanding of me brings me wonder and strength.
7 Where could I go from your Spirit? Where could I run and hide from your face?
8 If I go up to heaven, you’re there! If I go down to the realm of the dead, you’re there too!
9 If I fly with wings into the shining dawn, you’re there! If I fly into the radiant sunset, you’re there waiting!
10 Wherever I go, your hand will guide me; your strength will empower me.
11 It’s impossible to disappear from you or to ask the darkness to hide me, for your presence is everywhere, bringing light into my night.
12 There is no such thing as darkness with you. The night, to you, is as bright as the day; there’s no difference between the two.
13 You formed my innermost being, shaping my delicate inside and my intricate outside, and wove them all together in my mother’s womb.
14 I thank you, God, for making me so mysteriously complex! Everything you do is marvelously breathtaking. It simply amazes me to think about it! How thoroughly you know me, Lord!
15 You even formed every bone in my body when you created me in the secret place, carefully, skillfully shaping me from nothing to something.
16 You saw who you created me to be before I became me! Before I’d ever seen the light of day, the number of days you planned for me were already recorded in your book.
17–18 Every single moment you are thinking of me! How precious and wonderful to consider that you cherish me constantly in your every thought!
O God, your desires toward me are more than the grains of sand on every shore! When I awake each morning, you’re still with me.

Keep on asking your questions, Kirby. It just shows a searching heart and that delights the Father. And no worries... He will show you the answer.

Blessings, Snowrose

Thank you, Snowrose. Indeed, 139 (in my opinion) is one of the Bible's most beautiful passages.

 

[Kirby D. P.]

Acts 17:28
For in him we live and move and have our being.


Friend,
When you are able to live by your own substance, living without need of light or dark, food or water, then let Him know that He doesn't give us our needs every day. See, even the trees themselves breath and give breath, and in their doing so we also have our breath in them.

I thank God for breath (I am still breathing as I type this message for you).

See, our words are a medium for understanding, but be careful not to deceive your self with your own imagination. I stick my hand in a fire, I get burned. I fall off an angled cliff, and by it I am scourged with many lacerations of my flesh and receive fractures to my bones. I am cut by a knife while preparing food, I bleed.

Oh, understanding! Ah, wisdom!

I will KEEP my hand OUT of the fire.
I will KEEP my feet planted sturdily on the ground when I am next to cliffs.
I will BE diligent when preparing food with sharp objects.

Who tells me to follow these rules anyway, who tells me things nobody has ever spoken before, like how drinking coffee with crude motor oil is madness--no, really? Ah, just try it you'll be fine!

Is not even our own imagination from Him, even logic? Indeed, if you read the Bible and consider what truth is then you'll learn things which were hidden to your eyes and your ears. Besides, unless I were an atheist for an opinion then how absurd is the logic in it, considering that even the word atheist came from another person's dividing, compartmentalizing, defining, contrasting, and comparing of what they perceive in their self. See, if I ask, why must needs be an atheist declare it that they have no faith in God except it were so that they are proud of their faith and wish for others to see it and perhaps adopt it too; if it were really so, why even share it?

I had a time when I also called my own self an atheist, not because it was what I believed but because they were words which brought me comforts; I quickly learned how stupid it was, even the whole system of principles by which the belief stands--oh, that's right--atheism doesn't actually have any principles, neither understand nor wisdom, so above all else, it's just an empty word with no truth in it--it is good only for the stumbling of others.

Kirby, before you or I, or anybody of the past two thousand years defined what a 'triangle' is 'by definition,' God has already made a four-sided triangle:

Pyramidal structures with triangular faces. Cute.
I think you know my point was simply that it’s wrong-headed when anybody poses some, “Gotchya!” for God by demanding something of utter nonsense.

For what it’s worth, I’m not at all hidebound about labeling myself “atheist.” To my thinking, it’s honest and accurate enough. I use it here because it cuts right to the chase of who I am within this decidedly “a-atheist” context. I say it and, more or less, you know what I mean. You might find terms like, “faithless,” “unbeliever,” “secularist,” etc. more accurate. Please feel free to call my anything you like. Just don’t call me late for dinner.

You raise what is, to me, a somewhat different issue. With your indulgence, I’d like to explore that a bit. If you’d rather not, fair enough.

I have gorged on the available chronic “debates” between atheists and Christians asking, “Where do morals come from?” With few exceptions, Christians are willing to acknowledge it is POSSIBLE to be moral without God. That there are atheists who are moral. And the atheists generally concede the same of Christians. Controversy hinges upon whether morals derive from some immutable, objective, universal “Truth” (God), or are simply the product of some arbitrary, subjective set of materialist standards that vary wildly from era to era, culture to culture, and individual to individual.

What you describe sounds to me a lot like the more useful and accurate description of the case. You and I both get our morals from exactly the same place. Some are TAUGHT to us, and some we conceive through our own EXPERIENCE. Where we differ is the agent who we credit as those morals’ source.

I’ll ask if you agree. But first, I’ll point out something that doesn’t cause me any discomfort at all, but which I would expect might elicit cognitive dissonance within the believer.

There is no question I learned SOME morals when I did believe in God and in a religious context. Think: the 10 Commandments. Over time, my morals have evolved. For instance, there are certain of the 10 commandments I no longer consider to be moral.

I know Christians who have been reared in faithful devotion to God, viewed through the lens of scripture; scripture often presented as “infallible.” That may be fine with regard to the 10 Commandments and many other biblical edicts. But MOST of my Christian friends do not think slavery is at all moral. Yet the Bible is quite explicit: it is entirely possible to morally own human beings as property, to be bought and sold and bequeathed to one’s descendants. I have seen certain apologia claiming some escape hatch from this (to me) inescapable fact of black-letter liturgical law. But I would have no difficulty using scripture to make the case slavery is entirely permissible in the eye of God. It just so happens my morals are evolved beyond that (to me) odious position. I see the same process at work among my Christian friends.

If you agree (for the sake of argument) you and I are both moral agents, and that slavery is immoral, what is your basis for considering it so? Bible passages like Lev 25:44-46 have not evolved in at least 3,000 years. However, their observance (in my opinion) unquestionably has.

 

[twcstp111]

I have nothing at all against you. Contrary actually, I consider you important and there is good in speaking with you. See, what I disagree with is principles that are taught over the course of years which later become a means (and an excuse) for men to turn against their own--dividing, and contending violently with one another--not in righteousness--but for reasons purposed in wickedness. See, it's not the label that I use to identify a believer, it is their goings; are they upright? Such is a believer. Jesus is literally the King of uprightness, and He is able to lead even the most blind and deaf (of whom I have been) back to or to those principles which rest in peace, and love, and joy--that we might go all of our days in the way of peace, in the way of love, in the way of joy--those ways, which are upright--the path of righteousness.

See, our words are as alive as we are; with our words 'we' define 'i,' 'us,' 'me,' 'you,' 'they,' 'them,' 'other,' etc.

Had I not an understanding of what a 'word' is then neither would I understand that 'i' am 'alive,' for it is by these words that 'i' am able to appreciate, acknowledge, and communicate with His Spirit--of whom we all are from.

Quote:
That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
Quote:
I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

Please do not misunderstand these quotes; I have not put them here to take claim at defining 'me' as 'a god' but to declare what has been said: we all came from Him.


I will now explain why I am telling you this. See, I am speaking these words to you because it is not in our bodies only that we have our being, but also, and literally, in Word, which we have our being. I learned this and then it became very clear to me that most of the issues in the world today, including all of the violence and murder, can be caused or solved by the Word which a people follow--and for seeing this truth, and knowing it, that it is true, I have seen His Glory--perfect righteousness--perfect love--in His Word I have found no error--neither have I found any doctrine of principles which are higher than His.

Quote:
My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge:because thou hast rejected knowledge,I will also reject thee,that thou shalt be no priest to me:seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God,I will also forget thy children.

'Priest' is another word for 'minister' and 'instructor.'

The first commandment is: "Thou shalt have no other gods before me"

Now, how would I perceive God except the word came to me first? Or how would I call on Him except I knew Him? Then, how would I understand except the Word hath given me it?

Quote:
God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.

What do I know of God?

Quote:
So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him.
Quote:
Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love.
Quote:
The Rock, his work is perfect, for all his ways are justice. A God of faithfulness and without iniquity, just and upright is he.
Quote:
For the Lord is righteous; he loves righteous deeds; the upright shall behold his face.

If I walk in uprightness then I know I am going in His ways, to whom I do give credit (Glory; Praise; Honor; Worship), for He has taught me His ways in which I do go.


As for the matter of slavery, frankly, if that enslavement is by captivity it is immoral and unjust; if it is by agreement, then by their contract it is just; again, if it is by captivity, it is evil. I know this is so, otherwise even the Ten Commandments would not have stated to 'Honor thy Mother and thy Father,' see, if they were my slaves how could I then honor them? So I see all of mankind this way--if I love my neighbor, who is my slave, how could it be that I love them? I would set them free.

If I sweep up the entire earth and take away all things but you and I remain, and everyone else too, what ought I have my slave do? There would be nothing left for them to do--all things have been removed. I do not associate things with the life that is in the living, but I acknowledge that there is life in the living and that there are things all around us, and that loving the life which is living is most important and above all else; otherwise, what tree would ever give me an apple?

 

[Snowrose]

As I read the posts here, I will admit my heart was grieved. I don’t understand why it is grieving but it is. We can look at the Bible through our own lens and still get it wrong. We can even misunderstand who our Heavenly Father is by not really taking the time get to know Him and His heart toward us …. I know I am still working on this.

We can try to define or understand what we see in the Bible … in this instance slavery in the bible or even the morality and we will all come out with our own definitions.

I will admit I looked up (googled) Morality and Ravi Zacharias who is a well known Christian apologist and came across the following article....


Beyond Mere Morality by Ravi Zacharias ….

As human beings, we have the capacity to feel with moral implications, to exercise the gift of imagination, and to think in paradigms. We make judgments according to the way we each individually view or interpret the world around us. Even if we do not agree with each other on what ought to be, we recognize that there must be—and that there is—an “ought.” For example, we all ought to behave in certain ways or else we cannot get along, which is why we have laws. In short, we ascribe to ourselves freedom with boundaries. Yet too often we shun boundaries because we feel impeded or we’re afraid they will deprive us of what we think we really want. While we know that freedom cannot be absolute, we still resist any notion of limitation ... at least for ourselves. The Bible does not mute its warning here. We are drawn like moths to the flame towards that which often crosses known boundaries, that can destroy, and yet we flirt with those dangers. But at the end of life, we seldom hear regrets for not going into forbidden terrain. I do not know of anyone who died as a Christian exercising self-control who wished he or she had been an atheist or had lived an indulgent life. But I have known many in the reverse situation. In this inconsistency we witness unintended consequences. As I have noted before, I have little doubt that the single greatest obstacle to the impact of the gospel has not been its inability to provide answers, but the failure on our part to live it out. That failure not only robs us of our inner peace but mars the intended light that a consistently lived life brings to the one observing our message. After lecturing at a major American university, I was driven to the airport by the organizer of the event. I was quite jolted by what he told me. He said, “My wife brought our neighbor last night. She is a medical doctor and had not been to anything like this before. On their way home, my wife asked her what she thought of it all.” He paused and then continued, “Do you know what she said?” Rather reluctantly, I shook my head. “She said, ‘That was a very powerful evening. The arguments were very persuasive. I wonder what he is like in his private life.’” The answers were intellectually and existentially satisfying, but she still needed to know, did they really make a difference in the life of the one proclaiming them? G.K. Chesterton said, “The problem with Christianity is not that it has been tried and found wanting, but that it has been found difficult and left untried.” The Irish evangelist Gypsy Smith once said, “There are five Gospels. Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, and the Christian, and some people will never read the first four.” In other words, the message is seen before it is heard. For any skeptic, the answers to their questions are not enough; they look deeper, to the visible transformation of the one offering them.

Think Again: Beyond Mere Morality


Though there is more to the article, I did find this part interesting and had to share it. I provided the link above if you wish to read the rest.
Blessings, Snowrose

 

[Brother Paul]

Hello. Polite atheist here. A notion occurred to me and I’m interested in any thoughts you might have in light of it. I promise I am not here trolling. I don’t have any preconceived answer I’m looking for, and please don’t take any offense in it. Let me assure you, none is intended.

Generally speaking, when God is ascribed omnipotence, it is understood he can do anything that is possible to do. It’s no “fault” he cannot perform logically flawed propositions. No one should expect God to be able to make a four-sided triangle. BY DEFINITION, a triangle has three sides. It’s similar to the ham handed “catch 22,” “Can God create a stone so massive he himself can’t lift it?” It’s not an example of a “bad” God, just a shining example of a very bad question.

Another trait commonly attributed to God is omnipresence –– he is everywhere at all times. There is neither microscopic nook nor cranny in the cosmos beyond his reach. He is there this moment because he has always been there and was even so before THERE was there.

My question may seem at first like the nonsensical syllogisms mentioned above. But I think there is a difference.

Can God fashion a box inside which he is not present, and into which he cannot, or does not, penetrate? It may seem abstract and wrongheaded. Except: I know I CAN fashion such a box. One that excludes me from its contents and within which I cannot see unless I look.

Appreciative of any thoughts.

I expect that there would be some variations based on how the recipient perceives your question. So based on how I have perceived the question you asked and where the Lord has led me in my understanding revealed in His word, I will give you my thoughts. The answer would be a no and a yes. No, he cannot create a PNYSICAL/MATERIAL box with these characteristics because

a) He is not physical being and Spirit permeates matter, and
b) such a box, based on premise a, would be an absurdity like the other two propositions you offered as examples.

Yes, because He can create a space pf realm wherein He chooses to not be present. I will give you an example...Because sin cannot remain in His presence, He created a special place for the fallen angels that He foreknew (not caused) in THEIR free volitional choice would choose to reject Him, His Lordship (each being their own lord like promised to Adam and Eve in Genesis 3:5), and all He would have provided as promised to Humans in creation. He foreknew even if offered a chance over and over they would NEVER repent. This place where they eventually will be (also translated Hell along with Sheol/Hades) is a place where beings who are eternal will exist outside of His presence and influence. Beings who insisted on being there own god.

It was His will and within His power to create such a space or realm for all the "self" lords where in actuality they get their own way (for it grieves the Lord to send them there but being in their sin they cannot remain in His presence). We catch a small glimpse of what this experience will be like in the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus. In the place of the Rich Man, God and His mercies are not there....he is 100% alone being the lord of a kingdom of one (as will all "self" lords be), plus remember that fellowship and family were God's idea and the Rich Man was having none of that God stuff...he is in utter darkness because after all light was of God which He rejected....there was no order to calm the fires of chaos because that also was of God...no meeting of his needs, no ministering unto his hurts,, no further chance of repentance, and on and on. Such is a place where God by His choice cannot and will not be present.

Our chance to NOT get OUR way without God still exists until this bios life ends (it is given once to die and then the judgment) after that, according to the Bible, if our sins have not been dealt with we are then subject to the consequence of the second death (Spiritual death - Isaiah 59:2) of separation from the presence of God.

Finally I might add that eternal is qualitative not quantitative...it is ever now there without the experience of Chronos time (from a past thru a present into one of many potential futures)...make no mistake you will exist after separated from this tent, the question is how do you want to experience this consciously aware state? The choice is still yours....

 

[Kirby D. P.]

I have nothing at all against you. Contrary actually, I consider you important and there is good in speaking with you. See, what I disagree with is principles that are taught over the course of years which later become a means (and an excuse) for men to turn against their own--dividing, and contending violently with one another--not in righteousness--but for reasons purposed in wickedness. See, it's not the label that I use to identify a believer, it is their goings; are they upright? Such is a believer. Jesus is literally the King of uprightness, and He is able to lead even the most blind and deaf (of whom I have been) back to or to those principles which rest in peace, and love, and joy--that we might go all of our days in the way of peace, in the way of love, in the way of joy--those ways, which are upright--the path of righteousness.

See, our words are as alive as we are; with our words 'we' define 'i,' 'us,' 'me,' 'you,' 'they,' 'them,' 'other,' etc.

Had I not an understanding of what a 'word' is then neither would I understand that 'i' am 'alive,' for it is by these words that 'i' am able to appreciate, acknowledge, and communicate with His Spirit--of whom we all are from.

Quote:
That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
Quote:
I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

Please do not misunderstand these quotes; I have not put them here to take claim at defining 'me' as 'a god' but to declare what has been said: we all came from Him.


I will now explain why I am telling you this. See, I am speaking these words to you because it is not in our bodies only that we have our being, but also, and literally, in Word, which we have our being. I learned this and then it became very clear to me that most of the issues in the world today, including all of the violence and murder, can be caused or solved by the Word which a people follow--and for seeing this truth, and knowing it, that it is true, I have seen His Glory--perfect righteousness--perfect love--in His Word I have found no error--neither have I found any doctrine of principles which are higher than His.

Quote:
My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge:because thou hast rejected knowledge,I will also reject thee,that thou shalt be no priest to me:seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God,I will also forget thy children.

'Priest' is another word for 'minister' and 'instructor.'

The first commandment is: "Thou shalt have no other gods before me"

Now, how would I perceive God except the word came to me first? Or how would I call on Him except I knew Him? Then, how would I understand except the Word hath given me it?

Quote:
God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.

What do I know of God?

Quote:
So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him.
Quote:
Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love.
Quote:
The Rock, his work is perfect, for all his ways are justice. A God of faithfulness and without iniquity, just and upright is he.
Quote:
For the Lord is righteous; he loves righteous deeds; the upright shall behold his face.

If I walk in uprightness then I know I am going in His ways, to whom I do give credit (Glory; Praise; Honor; Worship), for He has taught me His ways in which I do go.


As for the matter of slavery, frankly, if that enslavement is by captivity it is immoral and unjust; if it is by agreement, then by their contract it is just; again, if it is by captivity, it is evil. I know this is so, otherwise even the Ten Commandments would not have stated to 'Honor thy Mother and thy Father,' see, if they were my slaves how could I then honor them? So I see all of mankind this way--if I love my neighbor, who is my slave, how could it be that I love them? I would set them free.

If I sweep up the entire earth and take away all things but you and I remain, and everyone else too, what ought I have my slave do? There would be nothing left for them to do--all things have been removed. I do not associate things with the life that is in the living, but I acknowledge that there is life in the living and that there are things all around us, and that loving the life which is living is most important and above all else; otherwise, what tree would ever give me an apple?

You paint many good concepts that bear reflection. But, if you please, I’m going to hone in rather sharply on this matter of slavery. You seem to suggest some forms of slavery constitute a covenant—a binding agreement between two unequal parties. The Bible is, if nothing else an accounting if such agreements, most prominently (to my thinking) between Adam and Eve and God, between Noah and God, between Abraham and God, between the people of Israel (by way of Moses) and God, and between all humans (by way of Christ) and God.

I would submit that under no circumstances can chattel slavery in any way consist as any form of covenant. One party, namely the slave, is stripped of their autonomy to enter into such covenant with their willing consent. Hence, at least in all legal and social examples I can think of, ALL instances of slavery exemplify what you describe as “slavery as captivity” and, hence, evil and immoral.

But the Bible explicitly sanctions just such forms of slavery. It stipulates slaves may be purchased in perpetuity from among any of the peoples surrounding the nation of Israel. And both they, and Hebrew slaves who have suffered some particular change in status, may be kept “as property” and passed on to the owner’s heirs “as property.”

To be sure, the Bible does condemn particular instances of slavery as evil and immoral as a source of unjust suffering. But never the institution itself, for which it provides very clear, straightforward regulation of its acceptable (i.e., MORAL) conduct.

Pretend I am pro-slavery. My read of the Bible tells me God is perfectly happy when I engage in slavery, so long as I follow his rules. This is precisely the justification some American slaveholders relied upon before the civil war. You say you find “slavery of captivity” to be immoral. Can you predicate that view on scripture as manifestly clear-cut and compelling as those passages which I use to defend my slaving operation? Or do you base that opinion on a sensitive, sensible comprehension of the MEANING and INTENT behind the Bible, and do you take responsibility for applying those values to a particular situation which was, admittedly, widely thought acceptable In the era when the Bible was first set down?

• 
  
• 
  
• 
  

 

[Kirby D. P.]

I expect that there would be some variations based on how the recipient perceives your question. So based on how I have perceived the question you asked and where the Lord has led me in my understanding revealed in His word, I will give you my thoughts. The answer would be a no and a yes. No, he cannot create a PNYSICAL/MATERIAL box with these characteristics because

a) He is not physical being and Spirit permeates matter, and
b) such a box, based on premise a, would be an absurdity like the other two propositions you offered as examples.

Yes, because He can create a space pf realm wherein He chooses to not be present. I will give you an example...Because sin cannot remain in His presence, He created a special place for the fallen angels that He foreknew (not caused) in THEIR free volitional choice would choose to reject Him, His Lordship (each being their own lord like promised to Adam and Eve in Genesis 3:5), and all He would have provided as promised to Humans in creation. He foreknew even if offered a chance over and over they would NEVER repent. This place where they eventually will be (also translated Hell along with Sheol/Hades) is a place where beings who are eternal will exist outside of His presence and influence. Beings who insisted on being there own god.

It was His will and within His power to create such a space or realm for all the "self" lords where in actuality they get their own way (for it grieves the Lord to send them there but being in their sin they cannot remain in His presence). We catch a small glimpse of what this experience will be like in the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus. In the place of the Rich Man, God and His mercies are not there....he is 100% alone being the lord of a kingdom of one (as will all "self" lords be), plus remember that fellowship and family were God's idea and the Rich Man was having none of that God stuff...he is in utter darkness because after all light was of God which He rejected....there was no order to calm the fires of chaos because that also was of God...no meeting of his needs, no ministering unto his hurts,, no further chance of repentance, and on and on. Such is a place where God by His choice cannot and will not be present.

Our chance to NOT get OUR way without God still exists until this bios life ends (it is given once to die and then the judgment) after that, according to the Bible, if our sins have not been dealt with we are then subject to the consequence of the second death (Spiritual death - Isaiah 59:2) of separation from the presence of God.

Finally I might add that eternal is qualitative not quantitative...it is ever now there without the experience of Chronos time (from a past thru a present into one of many potential futures)...make no mistake you will exist after separated from this tent, the question is how do you want to experience this consciously aware state? The choice is still yours....

Please don’t think I have not read, and do not appreciate, the full content of your excellent answer. I have and I do. But you have stirred me to realize, of course, I was being too clever by half. If God can create the entire realm of Hell wherein none could possibly ever find him, a mere box is a laughable trifle. I admit it shows, no matter how closely I study religion, there is some level at which I instinctively still don’t “get” it. Thank you.

 

[B-A-C]

You paint many good concepts that bear reflection. But, if you please, I’m going to hone in rather sharply on this matter of slavery. You seem to suggest some forms of slavery constitute a covenant—a binding agreement between two unequal parties. The Bible is, if nothing else an accounting if such agreements, most prominently (to my thinking) between Adam and Eve and God, between Noah and God, between Abraham and God, between the people of Israel (by way of Moses) and God, and between all humans (by way of Christ) and God.

I would submit that under no circumstances can chattel slavery in any way consist as any form of covenant. One party, namely the slave, is stripped of their autonomy to enter into such covenant with their willing consent. Hence, at least in all legal and social examples I can think of, ALL instances of slavery exemplify what you describe as “slavery as captivity” and, hence, evil and immoral.

It depends on what you call slavery. When I married my wife, I entered into a covenant with her. She doesn't get emotionally or physically involved with other men, I don't get emotionally or physically involved with other women.

I guess you could call that slavery if you wanted to. But it's a voluntary agreement that I willingly made because of love. Love is caring about someone else more than you care about yourself.

It's much the same with God... He doesn't force us to be in a relationship with Him. That really would be slavery. However some of us choose to enter a covenant with Him because of love.
We give up things that are all really bad for us anyway (even though we don't always realize it for a while). Because we choose to live by His rules. Just like we choose to live by our spouses rules.

The church I attend has some homeless shelters. Anyone can stay in these, but there are some rules. No drugs or alcohol in the shelter. (prescriptions are allowed)
No "sex partners" in your room, unless you can legally prove you are married to each other. Generally we don't let two men or two women share a room. (Although there are exceptions)

If you break the rules, you can't come back for 6 months. It's kind of a three strikes rule, after the third time, they won't take you back. You do get a couple of free meals at these shelters.
It's not a rib-eye steak or anything fancy, but hey it's free and it's food. We do hand out tracts and brochures, sometimes even small Psalms/4 Gospels mini Bibles. There is always a short mini sermon
or devotional at every meal. Even an altar call.

Everything in life has rules, baseball games, basketball games, chess games. Even your boss where you work has a few rules, being a parent has some unwritten rules. You might say I don't have any
rules with my friends, but you do. If you started criticizing them all the time, physically and emotionally abusing them all the time, after a while they wouldn't want to be your friend.

So you can call these "rules" slavery if you want to, maybe they are... but we voluntarily accept them. What people don't realize is, they are slaves to what they do in any case.
People are slaves to drugs, alcohol, gambling, pornography, sex, looking good, compliments, money, control, and many other things... they "think" I'm just doing these things because I choose to.
But they don't have the power to stop. So in reality they are as much slaves as Christians are, even more so, because Christians are free to break the rules if they choose to.
Addicts sometimes break free of drugs and alcohol (even non Christians ones) but almost always they just move their addiction to something else.

If a friend (or woman I was romantically interested in) told me, do whatever you want, you can't hurt me. I would take that as, they aren't ever going to make themselves vulnerable to me.
They don't care what I do, and in fact don't care much about me at all. If no one can hurt you, if you've blocked off all emotions from anyone else, you are now a slave to self and your own emotions.
(especially fear)

 

[twcstp111]

You paint many good concepts that bear reflection. But, if you please, I’m going to hone in rather sharply on this matter of slavery. You seem to suggest some forms of slavery constitute a covenant—a binding agreement between two unequal parties. The Bible is, if nothing else an accounting if such agreements, most prominently (to my thinking) between Adam and Eve and God, between Noah and God, between Abraham and God, between the people of Israel (by way of Moses) and God, and between all humans (by way of Christ) and God.

I would submit that under no circumstances can chattel slavery in any way consist as any form of covenant. One party, namely the slave, is stripped of their autonomy to enter into such covenant with their willing consent. Hence, at least in all legal and social examples I can think of, ALL instances of slavery exemplify what you describe as “slavery as captivity” and, hence, evil and immoral.

But the Bible explicitly sanctions just such forms of slavery. It stipulates slaves may be purchased in perpetuity from among any of the peoples surrounding the nation of Israel. And both they, and Hebrew slaves who have suffered some particular change in status, may be kept “as property” and passed on to the owner’s heirs “as property.”

To be sure, the Bible does condemn particular instances of slavery as evil and immoral as a source of unjust suffering. But never the institution itself, for which it provides very clear, straightforward regulation of its acceptable (i.e., MORAL) conduct.

Pretend I am pro-slavery. My read of the Bible tells me God is perfectly happy when I engage in slavery, so long as I follow his rules. This is precisely the justification some American slaveholders relied upon before the civil war. You say you find “slavery of captivity” to be immoral. Can you predicate that view on scripture as manifestly clear-cut and compelling as those passages which I use to defend my slaving operation? Or do you base that opinion on a sensitive, sensible comprehension of the MEANING and INTENT behind the Bible, and do you take responsibility for applying those values to a particular situation which was, admittedly, widely thought acceptable In the era when the Bible was first set down?

• 
  
• 
  
• 
  

See, this is an issue that has been paramount with the interpretation and application of principles; what man that has not learned Words can learn the principles which are set forth in the scriptures by and through Words? Otherwise, the scriptures are like an ancient text which no man can decipher. I must acknowledge first that even the wisest of men can be a fool, and that a fool as he is seen may be subject more to public opinion than actual principle. What this means is that the wise may actually be a fool, and the fool may actually be wise--how ought we to know, except we were either ourselves, and then how ought we understand, except we knew the principle and context upon which the determination was decreed? Surely enough, even a book that isn't written in ancient hieroglyphs but in the very language we speak and know can still be as an ancient text which none could decipher--how? Words that are Spirit must be observed by Spirit and given life through Spirit otherwise it is as ink on paper.

Jesus spoke in parables but the truth is that His parables spoke plainly:
If anyone claims to be in the light but hates his brother, he is still in the darkness. 10Whoever loves his brother remains in the light, and there is no cause of stumbling in him. 11But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks in the darkness. He does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.…

Quote:
just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for many.
Quote:
For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

Quote:
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."
Quote:
Jesus declared, ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38This is the first and greatest commandment.
Quote:
39And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’
Quote:
40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.


What does it mean to fulfill the Law and the Prophets?
What did Jesus do?

Quote:
"You have heard that it was said, 'You shall not commit adultery.'
But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Superb. Jesus not only kept the first law, but he magnified (increased the conditions to fulfill it) it and made it holy (perfect in righteousness). So the first Law was outward; 'Do not sleep with another woman except your own Wife.' Now, the same Law which was outward also became inward; 'If you look on at another woman than your own wife and lust for her, you have committed adultery already.'

Quote:
8 Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law. 9 The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,”[a] and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”[b] 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.


Sure enough, the Bible does not actually support 'slavery' as the horrendous and heinous bondage and vile captivity we've observed in history--those passages which men used to justify an ill and wicked practice were actually their own erroneous stipulations of scriptures and not actual truth, and for such ignorance the whole of the prophets and the law became as the words of a sealed book to them.


Exodus 21:16
16 And he that stealeth a man, and selleth him, or if he be found in his hand, he shall surely be put to death.

Leviticus 25:39
39If a countryman among you becomes destitute and sells himself to you, then you must not force him into slave labor.40Let him stay with you as a hired worker or temporary resident; he is to work for you until the Year of Jubilee.…

Leviticus 25:48
47If a foreigner residing among you prospers, but your countryman dwelling near him becomes destitute and sells himself to the foreigner or to a member of his clan, 48he retains the right of redemption after he has sold himself. One of his brothers may redeem him:49either his uncle or cousin or any close relative from his clan may redeem him. Or if he prospers, he may redeem himself.…

Exodus 21
2 “If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for six years. But in the seventh year, he shall go free, without paying anything. 3 If he comes alone, he is to go free alone; but if he has a wife when he comes, she is to go with him. 4 If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the woman and her children shall belong to her master, and only the man shall go free.
5 “But if the servant declares, ‘I love my master and my wife and children and do not want to go free,’ 6 then his master must take him before the judges.[a] He shall take him to the door or the doorpost and pierce his ear with an awl. Then he will be his servant for life.
7 “If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as male servants do. 8 If she does not please the master who has selected her for himself,[b] he must let her be redeemed. He has no right to sell her to foreigners, because he has broken faith with her. 9 If he selects her for his son, he must grant her the rights of a daughter. 10 If he marries another woman, he must not deprive the first one of her food, clothing and marital rights. 11 If he does not provide her with these three things, she is to go free, without any payment of money.

Deuteronomy 23:15-16
15 If a slave has taken refuge with you, do not hand them over to their master. 16 Let them live among you wherever they like and in whatever town they choose. Do not oppress them.

Lev 25:35–37
35 “If your brother becomes poor and cannot maintain himself with you, you shall support him as though he were a stranger and a sojourner, and he shall live with you. 36 Take no interest from him or profit, but fear your God, that your brother may live beside you. 37 You shall not lend him your money at interest, nor give him your food for profit.



I thank God for this conversation, which has given me enlightenment into a significant issue of controversy which is used to falsely debase the scriptures and The LORD with a clear answer: 'slaves' and 'bond-servants' are COMPLETELY different.


WHOEVER DECIDED TO REPLACE THE WORD 'SERVANT' WITH THE WORD 'SLAVE' CHANGED THE SCRIPTURES TO SOMETHING EVIL BY NOT TRANSLATING CORRECTLY (EITHER FOR ILLICIT REASON OR FOR LACK OF UNDERSTANDING).

The original Word, and context, and meaning of passages observing servitude were in the context, intent, and purpose of 'servants by means of' and 'in servitude.'

Servant:
a person who performs duties for others, especially a person employed in a house on domestic duties or as a personal attendant.
Slave:
a person who is the legal property of another and is forced to obey them.


How awful, we have Bibles circulating right now that are using words with meanings which are similar in context but completely out of context and have deviated from the original meaning, and I presume that it was the same in the days where americans owned slaves--it is unlikely that even ten people had a comprehensive understanding of all of the scripture in all of america during those days, even as it is today. If somebody said then that the correct context and word was actually 'servant' and not 'slave,' they might have been outcast by many christians even though the outcasting would be against the principles of the Holy Ghost.

 

[twcstp111]

Pretend I am pro-slavery. My read of the Bible tells me God is perfectly happy when I engage in slavery, so long as I follow his rules. This is precisely the justification some American slaveholders relied upon before the civil war. You say you find “slavery of captivity” to be immoral. Can you predicate that view on scripture as manifestly clear-cut and compelling as those passages which I use to defend my slaving operation? Or do you base that opinion on a sensitive, sensible comprehension of the MEANING and INTENT behind the Bible, and do you take responsibility for applying those values to a particular situation which was, admittedly, widely thought acceptable In the era when the Bible was first set down?

I take it now that I have given you a perfect response to this illustration--defeating all pro-slavery institutions along with their abominable justification, showing forth the immorality and the evil of slavery, affirming that the principle constructs used to defend slavery by God and His Word was not actually by God or His Word but through an indoctrinated false doctrine which 'looks' like scripture but is not real scripture.

If a word that I read in scripture tells me that another word belongs there and I observe that it is true, it means that there is in this present an error in word -- this does not mean there is an error in Him who has no flaw.

Yeah, I take responsibility for saying that their use of scripture (virtue) in those days was misrepresented wickedness in the context of slavery; what they did and the means by which they justified their expression of want was evil and loveless, and to have the word 'slave' sitting in place of the word 'servant' in the scriptures for many of the passages is grossly defiant to the context and in many of the contexts the disparity created by the putting in of the incorrect word even renders the whole passages as corrupt..

 

[Br. Bear]

It depends on what you call slavery. When I married my wife, I entered into a covenant with her. She doesn't get emotionally or physically involved with other men, I don't get emotionally or physically involved with other women.

I guess you could call that slavery if you wanted to. But it's a voluntary agreement that I willingly made because of love. Love is caring about someone else more than you care about yourself.

It's much the same with God... He doesn't force us to be in a relationship with Him. That really would be slavery. However some of us choose to enter a covenant with Him because of love.
We give up things that are all really bad for us anyway (even though we don't always realize it for a while). Because we choose to live by His rules. Just like we choose to live by our spouses rules.

The church I attend has some homeless shelters. Anyone can stay in these, but there are some rules. No drugs or alcohol in the shelter. (prescriptions are allowed)
No "sex partners" in your room, unless you can legally prove you are married to each other. Generally we don't let two men or two women share a room. (Although there are exceptions)

If you break the rules, you can't come back for 6 months. It's kind of a three strikes rule, after the third time, they won't take you back. You do get a couple of free meals at these shelters.
It's not a rib-eye steak or anything fancy, but hey it's free and it's food. We do hand out tracts and brochures, sometimes even small Psalms/4 Gospels mini Bibles. There is always a short mini sermon
or devotional at every meal. Even an altar call.

Everything in life has rules, baseball games, basketball games, chess games. Even your boss where you work has a few rules, being a parent has some unwritten rules. You might say I don't have any
rules with my friends, but you do. If you started criticizing them all the time, physically and emotionally abusing them all the time, after a while they wouldn't want to be your friend.

So you can call these "rules" slavery if you want to, maybe they are... but we voluntarily accept them. What people don't realize is, they are slaves to what they do in any case.
People are slaves to drugs, alcohol, gambling, pornography, sex, looking good, compliments, money, control, and many other things... they "think" I'm just doing these things because I choose to.
But they don't have the power to stop. So in reality they are as much slaves as Christians are, even more so, because Christians are free to break the rules if they choose to.
Addicts sometimes break free of drugs and alcohol (even non Christians ones) but almost always they just move their addiction to something else.

If a friend (or woman I was romantically interested in) told me, do whatever you want, you can't hurt me. I would take that as, they aren't ever going to make themselves vulnerable to me.
They don't care what I do, and in fact don't care much about me at all. If no one can hurt you, if you've blocked off all emotions from anyone else, you are now a slave to self and your own emotions.
(especially fear)

Greetings Brother,

have you ever read the terms and conditions of so many websites etc that one is meant to read before accepting....
same as software from the not-FOSS sources, eg Vindoze and Apfel or Googly? One usually has to AGREE TO BE BOUND.... and by so doing also agrees to be subject to at least country laws and jurisdiction but sometimes international law.... with the express permission granted by you (the Acceptee) that the Whoever We Are company Body OWNS and has a right to your personal everything that is provided by you, which, whether we believe it or not, tends to include the potential for our own body if we were found guilty of misconduct etc against the terms we so quickly accept when becoming BOUND?

A bit of a mouthful. sorry (a bit like the terms and conditions stuff!) but do you get the point?


Bless you ....><>

ps... if i was to emigrate to some loovely country, like the one you live in, i would likewise become the 'property' of said country for good or for bad.

JESUS IS LORD

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings Mr Kirby
@Kirby D. P.

How are you?
There are instances, in the Scriptures, that might clear this up for you.
Try forget and forgive, together.

For example,
I, I am He who blots out your transgressions for My own sake, and I will not remember your sins.
Isaiah 43:25

Then He says, “I will never again remember their sins and lawless deeds.
Hebrews 10:17

For God was in Christ, reconciling the world to Himself, no longer counting people’s sins against them. And He gave us this wonderful message of reconciliation.
2Corinthians 5:19


Where are the sins? What happened to them?
And what of the 'sinner'?

Come now, let us reason together, says the LORD: though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red like crimson, they shall become like wool.
Isaiah 1:18

Have you ever seen a morning mist? It is there and then it is not
Have you seen clouds more than once?
His Mercy goes beyond our base and carnal understanding

Bless you ....><>

 

[Born Again 2004]

Hello. Polite atheist here. A notion occurred to me and I’m interested in any thoughts you might have in light of it. I promise I am not here trolling. I don’t have any preconceived answer I’m looking for, and please don’t take any offense in it. Let me assure you, none is intended.

Generally speaking, when God is ascribed omnipotence, it is understood he can do anything that is possible to do. It’s no “fault” he cannot perform logically flawed propositions. No one should expect God to be able to make a four-sided triangle. BY DEFINITION, a triangle has three sides. It’s similar to the ham handed “catch 22,” “Can God create a stone so massive he himself can’t lift it?” It’s not an example of a “bad” God, just a shining example of a very bad question.

Another trait commonly attributed to God is omnipresence –– he is everywhere at all times. There is neither microscopic nook nor cranny in the cosmos beyond his reach. He is there this moment because he has always been there and was even so before THERE was there.

My question may seem at first like the nonsensical syllogisms mentioned above. But I think there is a difference.

Can God fashion a box inside which he is not present, and into which he cannot, or does not, penetrate? It may seem abstract and wrongheaded. Except: I know I CAN fashion such a box. One that excludes me from its contents and within which I cannot see unless I look.

Appreciative of any thoughts.

Dear Atheist you seem to be well educated but until you are saved your answers will never come ! It is easy to see God as "All Powerful". Until you are truly saved, which only He can do, will He also give you the necessary Faith to believe all things, including minor details with out question.

 

[Kirby D. P.]

It depends on what you call slavery. When I married my wife, I entered into a covenant with her. She doesn't get emotionally or physically involved with other men, I don't get emotionally or physically involved with other women.

I guess you could call that slavery if you wanted to. But it's a voluntary agreement that I willingly made because of love. Love is caring about someone else more than you care about yourself.

It's much the same with God... He doesn't force us to be in a relationship with Him. That really would be slavery. However some of us choose to enter a covenant with Him because of love.
We give up things that are all really bad for us anyway (even though we don't always realize it for a while). Because we choose to live by His rules. Just like we choose to live by our spouses rules.

The church I attend has some homeless shelters. Anyone can stay in these, but there are some rules. No drugs or alcohol in the shelter. (prescriptions are allowed)
No "sex partners" in your room, unless you can legally prove you are married to each other. Generally we don't let two men or two women share a room. (Although there are exceptions)

If you break the rules, you can't come back for 6 months. It's kind of a three strikes rule, after the third time, they won't take you back. You do get a couple of free meals at these shelters.
It's not a rib-eye steak or anything fancy, but hey it's free and it's food. We do hand out tracts and brochures, sometimes even small Psalms/4 Gospels mini Bibles. There is always a short mini sermon
or devotional at every meal. Even an altar call.

Everything in life has rules, baseball games, basketball games, chess games. Even your boss where you work has a few rules, being a parent has some unwritten rules. You might say I don't have any
rules with my friends, but you do. If you started criticizing them all the time, physically and emotionally abusing them all the time, after a while they wouldn't want to be your friend.

So you can call these "rules" slavery if you want to, maybe they are... but we voluntarily accept them. What people don't realize is, they are slaves to what they do in any case.
People are slaves to drugs, alcohol, gambling, pornography, sex, looking good, compliments, money, control, and many other things... they "think" I'm just doing these things because I choose to.
But they don't have the power to stop. So in reality they are as much slaves as Christians are, even more so, because Christians are free to break the rules if they choose to.
Addicts sometimes break free of drugs and alcohol (even non Christians ones) but almost always they just move their addiction to something else.

If a friend (or woman I was romantically interested in) told me, do whatever you want, you can't hurt me. I would take that as, they aren't ever going to make themselves vulnerable to me.
They don't care what I do, and in fact don't care much about me at all. If no one can hurt you, if you've blocked off all emotions from anyone else, you are now a slave to self and your own emotions.
(especially fear)

For clarity’s sake let’s specify that, in this conversation, when we discuss “slavery,” we mean chattel servitude of people owning other people in bondage as property to be bought and sold and disposed of however their masters wish, even if there are prevailing local laws and customs governing those processes.

By this standard all of the examples you mention are only, at most, euphemistically instances of “slavery.” My relationship with my wife is both an emotional bond as well as a legally binding contract. But I do not own her nor does she own me. Likewise with my employer, or, if I were a Boy Scout, with my scoutmaster, etc., etc.

Though I tender no belief in any God, if I learned that God exists and it was my duty as a human to worship him, I would not call any willing Christian a “slave.” Neither would I consider myself a slave, whether I excepted Christ or not. Just so long as I had the freedom of will to choose NOT to worship him. At this very site I am reminded again and again of my own free will. So I hope this is not in some way controversial.

So, with those clarifications set forth, and acknowledging the Bible lays out clear and specific instructions for the proper, “moral” conduct of human slavery, do you agree that this clear, specific, and narrowly defined understanding of “slavery” is immoral? If so, don’t you then base that perspective upon your own authority as an independent moral agent, informed and inspired by the word of God and his majesty and grace, even though you have no scriptural basis for such a conviction?

 

[Kirby D. P.]

See, this is an issue that has been paramount with the interpretation and application of principles; what man that has not learned Words can learn the principles which are set forth in the scriptures by and through Words? Otherwise, the scriptures are like an ancient text which no man can decipher. I must acknowledge first that even the wisest of men can be a fool, and that a fool as he is seen may be subject more to public opinion than actual principle. What this means is that the wise may actually be a fool, and the fool may actually be wise--how ought we to know, except we were either ourselves, and then how ought we understand, except we knew the principle and context upon which the determination was decreed? Surely enough, even a book that isn't written in ancient hieroglyphs but in the very language we speak and know can still be as an ancient text which none could decipher--how? Words that are Spirit must be observed by Spirit and given life through Spirit otherwise it is as ink on paper.

Jesus spoke in parables but the truth is that His parables spoke plainly:
If anyone claims to be in the light but hates his brother, he is still in the darkness. 10Whoever loves his brother remains in the light, and there is no cause of stumbling in him. 11But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks in the darkness. He does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.…

Quote:
just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for many.
Quote:
For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

Quote:
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."
Quote:
Jesus declared, ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38This is the first and greatest commandment.
Quote:
39And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’
Quote:
40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.


What does it mean to fulfill the Law and the Prophets?
What did Jesus do?

Quote:
"You have heard that it was said, 'You shall not commit adultery.'
But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Superb. Jesus not only kept the first law, but he magnified (increased the conditions to fulfill it) it and made it holy (perfect in righteousness). So the first Law was outward; 'Do not sleep with another woman except your own Wife.' Now, the same Law which was outward also became inward; 'If you look on at another woman than your own wife and lust for her, you have committed adultery already.'

Quote:
8 Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law. 9 The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,”[a] and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”[b] 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.


Sure enough, the Bible does not actually support 'slavery' as the horrendous and heinous bondage and vile captivity we've observed in history--those passages which men used to justify an ill and wicked practice were actually their own erroneous stipulations of scriptures and not actual truth, and for such ignorance the whole of the prophets and the law became as the words of a sealed book to them.


Exodus 21:16
16 And he that stealeth a man, and selleth him, or if he be found in his hand, he shall surely be put to death.

Leviticus 25:39
39If a countryman among you becomes destitute and sells himself to you, then you must not force him into slave labor.40Let him stay with you as a hired worker or temporary resident; he is to work for you until the Year of Jubilee.…

Leviticus 25:48
47If a foreigner residing among you prospers, but your countryman dwelling near him becomes destitute and sells himself to the foreigner or to a member of his clan, 48he retains the right of redemption after he has sold himself. One of his brothers may redeem him:49either his uncle or cousin or any close relative from his clan may redeem him. Or if he prospers, he may redeem himself.…

Exodus 21
2 “If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for six years. But in the seventh year, he shall go free, without paying anything. 3 If he comes alone, he is to go free alone; but if he has a wife when he comes, she is to go with him. 4 If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the woman and her children shall belong to her master, and only the man shall go free.
5 “But if the servant declares, ‘I love my master and my wife and children and do not want to go free,’ 6 then his master must take him before the judges.[a] He shall take him to the door or the doorpost and pierce his ear with an awl. Then he will be his servant for life.
7 “If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as male servants do. 8 If she does not please the master who has selected her for himself,[b] he must let her be redeemed. He has no right to sell her to foreigners, because he has broken faith with her. 9 If he selects her for his son, he must grant her the rights of a daughter. 10 If he marries another woman, he must not deprive the first one of her food, clothing and marital rights. 11 If he does not provide her with these three things, she is to go free, without any payment of money.

Deuteronomy 23:15-16
15 If a slave has taken refuge with you, do not hand them over to their master. 16 Let them live among you wherever they like and in whatever town they choose. Do not oppress them.

Lev 25:35–37
35 “If your brother becomes poor and cannot maintain himself with you, you shall support him as though he were a stranger and a sojourner, and he shall live with you. 36 Take no interest from him or profit, but fear your God, that your brother may live beside you. 37 You shall not lend him your money at interest, nor give him your food for profit.



I thank God for this conversation, which has given me enlightenment into a significant issue of controversy which is used to falsely debase the scriptures and The LORD with a clear answer: 'slaves' and 'bond-servants' are COMPLETELY different.


WHOEVER DECIDED TO REPLACE THE WORD 'SERVANT' WITH THE WORD 'SLAVE' CHANGED THE SCRIPTURES TO SOMETHING EVIL BY NOT TRANSLATING CORRECTLY (EITHER FOR ILLICIT REASON OR FOR LACK OF UNDERSTANDING).

The original Word, and context, and meaning of passages observing servitude were in the context, intent, and purpose of 'servants by means of' and 'in servitude.'

Servant:
a person who performs duties for others, especially a person employed in a house on domestic duties or as a personal attendant.
Slave:
a person who is the legal property of another and is forced to obey them.


How awful, we have Bibles circulating right now that are using words with meanings which are similar in context but completely out of context and have deviated from the original meaning, and I presume that it was the same in the days where americans owned slaves--it is unlikely that even ten people had a comprehensive understanding of all of the scripture in all of america during those days, even as it is today. If somebody said then that the correct context and word was actually 'servant' and not 'slave,' they might have been outcast by many christians even though the outcasting would be against the principles of the Holy Ghost.

I do like, “love thy brother and thy neighbor as thyself,” the Golden Rule, etc. They are not a perfect basis for a society, but they definitely get one started in the right direction. As to wisdom versus ignorance, through long experience I now know a fool when I see one and, but for those obvious exceptions, I have learned the hard way the safest policy is always to assume any person I meet is wiser than myself until shown definitely otherwise.

I do, however, take issue with your ambivalent read of Biblical doctrine on slavery. You seem familiar enough with the relevant passages that I hope I don’t have to point out the very different standards that were applied to fellow Hebrews as opposed to outsiders. All the myriad fine points you cite charging slaveholders with treating slaves as special among all their other non-human possessions notwithstanding, you cannot locate a single verse which would outlaw the vast majority of 16th-18th Century American slavery. The old chestnut that what was called “slavery” in “olden times” had a different meaning from our modern comprehension is a deplorable sleight of hand. Witness: I am a slave. Another person believes they OWN me. I cannot do as I please according to my free will. I am not at my liberty to leave this servitude...

These are just the beginnings of the many ways one can’t distinguish between bondage in the ancient Levant from that of Virginia in 1800. I don’t even need to ferret out countervailing scripture to invert your most-charitable read of the matter. You yourself (for whatever reason) have selected some of the most objectionable points for me:

“If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the woman and her children shall belong to her master, and only the man shall go free.”

Are we to understand the children of a “free” man born into slavery DON’T COUNT as slaves? Forgetting the monstrous ploy of extorting your manservant into sacrificing any hope of his own freedom if he has any interest in maintaining the integrity of his family, there is no escape clause here. No “out.” If I own one maidservant and can lure a male indentured servant into marrying her, I may set them up as a slave-making factory.

But, maybe I’m not interested in livestock. Maybe what really lights me up is cold hard cash. And I have a daughter. Then, “If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as male servants do.” And THAT’S a “nice” Jewish girl!

I don’t know about your neighborhood, but the authorities where I live do not look kindly upon the peddling of one’s children. Slavery, cruel, despicable and inhumane, was a fact of the ancient world. Hollow appeals to any notion that times were tough and becoming a slave was often a person’s “best” option for survival only sharpens that horror.

I don’t point all this out to “prove” you are misreading what is plain as day to me. My point is this: These “regulations” are barbaric to our modern eyes. They were manifestly NOT barbaric when they were formulated and prescribed. And, though Jesus and Paul may have amended the strictures of circumcision, ham sandwiches, and shrimp cocktail, this is PRECISELY one element of “the law” Jesus claims to fulfill, as you so ably point out.

Yet I will bet my life you, today, would see this barbarism for what it is. We have never met. Yet, I trust, if you saw my daughter being sold into slavery, even if I myself were the seller, you would intercede on her behalf. Not because you shun the law according to the Bible. But, because of all that is good in it, you know inhumanity when you see it. I am sorry if you sense any internal conflict between this sane, decent impulse and any obligation you feel to the chapter and verse of God’s law as recorded in the Bible. But I am convinced, having grown past it, we can keep the very good things it embodies and instructs; yet still not have to turn ourselves into pretzels trying to paint them all as perfect in their first, 2,000 year old draft.

 

[Kirby D. P.]

Dear Atheist you seem to be well educated but until you are saved your answers will never come ! It is easy to see God as "All Powerful". Until you are truly saved, which only He can do, will He also give you the necessary Faith to believe all things, including minor details with out question.

If this is so, then I trust he shall bring these things to pass in his own time.

 

[B-A-C]

So, with those clarifications set forth, and acknowledging the Bible lays out clear and specific instructions for the proper, “moral” conduct of human slavery, do you agree that this clear, specific, and narrowly defined understanding of “slavery” is immoral? If so, don’t you then base that perspective upon your own authority as an independent moral agent, informed and inspired by the word of God and his majesty and grace, even though you have no scriptural basis for such a conviction?

Can you show me a passage in the Bible, where it says "go out and get some slaves" or "go capture these people and make slaves of them".
I think there is a difference between condoning slavery and acknowledging that it exists.
The Bible says you shouldn't be married to an unbeliever, however it then says, but if you are..... (additional instruction)
The Bible doesn't say you should have slaves, or be slaves, but it says if you do/are.... (additional instruction)

Perhaps you are disappointed the Bible doesn't say "get rid of all your slaves". I could agree with you partially on that point. My grandmother died in the mid 1980's. She was born in the 1890's. She never owned any slaves, in fact she picked cotton herself.
But she knew people who had been slaves. The Civil war was about 20 years before she was born. Yet there were many "ex" slaves who continued to live lives similar to the lives they had before. Sometimes because of cruel, greedy people around them.
But sometimes because of their own choice, they knew no other life. They had no other means of livelihood. It's possible many would have died without that sole means of livelihood. I'm not condoning slavery here, but is it possible some slaves in the Bible
either chose to be, or would have died without any other means to support themselves? There are some (not all, admittedly) passages where the word "slave" in the Bible just means servant.

I don't really think this happens much anymore, but when I was younger, you would hear about it from time to time... indentured people. Slaves to people they owed money to. Not long ago, many people were imprisoned because of failure to pay debt.
(even up until the mid 1970's) You could say prison is a form of slavery. The people who were indentured to other people usually made a choice to become indentured to them. Likely they were hoping for better financial situations than what happened.
Financial recession, financial depression, crops fail, drought comes, workers die, lots of different reasons for financial failure, none of them are your fault, but still someone is out money and resources... someone has to pay.
You made a promise, you didn't hold up your end. Interestingly, people still go to prison for not paying taxes to the government.

There was study done back in the 1990's. It seems a lot of ex-prison inmates who had been in prison for long extended periods of time weren't comfortable being out in society. Many could not get jobs for various reasons. Some employers would not hire them.
But sometimes they simply lacked the skill and responsibility to have a decent job. Many had become so used to having rules and being told what to do and when to do, that they could no longer function without guidance. Many of these people
purposely committed crimes soon after they were let out, just so they could go back to someplace "safe". (safe?!?!) It was safe to them, because it was what they were familiar with. I think it was possibly the same for some slaves who were set free.

Is it possible, that in a way, their "master's" were really offering them a means of safety and sustainment? Not all slavery was beatings, whippings, and forced labor.