Admon Mikha'el
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I am NOT a curmudgeon.....I'm irascible, cantankerous, prickly, fractious, grumpy, but I am not acurmudgeon
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Can One Pray in the Spirit Without Speaking in Tongues?
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JerryfromMass
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LOL. Grump. Sorry, I mean curmudgeon.
Admon Mikha'el
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Still, with all this arguing and bluster...the fact remains that one can be in the spirit, walk in the Spirit, pray in the Spirit without tongues....
Romans 8:8-10
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Galatians 5:16-17
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Galatians 5:24-26
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.
Ephesians 6:17-19
17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;
19 And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,
Not a single mention of tongues.....We can walk in the spirit, and pray in the spirit without tongues.
Romans 8:8-10
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Galatians 5:16-17
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Galatians 5:24-26
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.
Ephesians 6:17-19
17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;
19 And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,
Not a single mention of tongues.....We can walk in the spirit, and pray in the spirit without tongues.
Admon Mikha'el
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Beetow
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I've heard it said that the miracle of tongues isn't in the speaking but rather in the
hearing. Sort of like an episode in NetFlix's Sense8 series. A cop is able to speak in
Korean and not even know it because he hears himself speaking in English while a
Korean friend hears him speaking his native language. For example:
• Acts 2:4-8 . . And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak
with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. And there were dwelling at
Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
. . . Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were
confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. And
they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all
these which speak Galilaeans? And how hear we every man in our own tongue,
wherein we were born?
_ _
hearing. Sort of like an episode in NetFlix's Sense8 series. A cop is able to speak in
Korean and not even know it because he hears himself speaking in English while a
Korean friend hears him speaking his native language. For example:
• Acts 2:4-8 . . And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak
with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. And there were dwelling at
Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
. . . Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were
confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. And
they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all
these which speak Galilaeans? And how hear we every man in our own tongue,
wherein we were born?
_ _
Admon Mikha'el
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Yup...This is one way that tongues manifests.
Born Again 2004
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What about Romans 8:21?
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Romans 8:26
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'And, being assembled together with them,
commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem,
but wait for the promise of the Father,
which, saith He, ye have heard of Me.'
(Act 1:4 - John 14:16, 26; 15:26; 16:7)
Hello @Butch5,
Seeking confirmation Acts 1:4 took me to Luke 24:49, regarding '... the promise of the Father ...', which was the gift of the Holy Spirit, according to Joel 2:28,29 (Acts 2:17-18), Isaiah 44:3 & Ezekiel 36:26-27. This promise was made to the People of Israel. At Pentecost there were Jews gathered from the diaspora, as well as those within the Land, who heard the message of God given in languages which they could understand. Yes, it was given to the believing community within Israel at Pentecost. It was also given to the gentiles when Cornelius and his household were saved, and entry into the Kingdom made possible for them in Acts 10:44-46; Acts 15:7-11.
Just thoughts.
Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
Butch5
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Hi Chris,
Sure. IN 1 Cor 14 Paul says this,
1 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe. (1 Cor. 14:21-22 KJV)
Here Paul says that it is written that God would speak unto this people with men of other tongues. What is it written and who is "this people"? We find it written in Isaiah 28.
11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
14 Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem.
(Isa. 28:11-14 KJV)
Isaiah 28 and 29 are about the judgment that came in 70 AD. Isaiah also said,
Behold, I and the children whom the LORD hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel from the LORD of hosts, which dwelleth in mount Zion. (Isa. 8:18 KJV)
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Hello @Admon Mikha'el,
The Believer who has believed God concerning His Son the Lord Jesus Christ, and have been saved by His grace, are 'in Christ' and are therefore walking in newness of spirit before the Father. There is nothing to hinder their prayers, for in Christ they are 'in spirit'.
So in answer to your question, 'Can One Pray in the Spirit Without Speaking in Tongues?' The answer is yes, of course, for we worship God truly in spirit.
Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
Butch5
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HI Chris,
Yes, it was given to the Gentiles. Isaiah prophesied that God would speak to Israel with men of other tongues, languages.
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You're welcome Chris.
Admon Mikha'el
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Complete...Please allow me to challenge you here....What does "In Christ" mean?
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Ref: reply #72
Hello @Admon Mikha'el,
Thank you for 'challenging' me on this blessed subject.
The fact of my being 'in Christ', by Whose will and by Whose hand, is made clear in verses which, like me, you probably know and love, in 1 Corinthians 1:18-31, I will simply quote the two which apply most to this question.
'But of Him are ye in Christ Jesus,
Who of God is made unto us
wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
That, according as it is written,
He that glorieth, let Him glory in the Lord.'
(1 Corinthians 1:30)
There was a time, when I thought being 'in Christ' depended on me: and I would fret and be anxious about whether I was 'in' or 'out' of Him. I had not then been enabled to 'acknowledge' the truth of the verses quoted above: but, 'Praise God', I now know and acknowledge that it is God Himself Who has placed me in Christ Jesus, my Lord and Head; by identifying me with Him in His death, in His burial, His quickening and His resurrection (Romans 6).
Yes, when God sees me, He sees His Son in all His perfection: Holy and without blame; therefore I am 'Accepted in the Beloved', made 'complete' in Christ, and made meet to partake of 'the inheritance of the saints in light'; and nothing shall separate me from the Love of God, in Him. This is my standing in Christ, which is sure: and I now walk before the Father in newness of life, but again, 'in Him', my flesh counts for nothing.
His workmanship - Praise His Holy Name!
With love in Christ Jesus
Chris
* Ephesians 1:3-14; Colossians 2:10; Colossians 1:12; Romans 8:35-39.
* What a lovely way to start my day. Thank you, Admon.
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Hello @Butch5,
Thank you for these verses, they are very clear aren't the? There can be no doubt as to the fact that the tongues that were manifested at Pentecost were for a sign to the unbelieving in Israel.
22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign,
not to them that believe,
but to them that believe not:
but prophesying
serveth not for them that believe not,
but for them which believe.
(1 Cor. 14:22 KJV)
What an interesting verse this is , isn't it? Both the first and second part of it. Yes?
Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
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Romans 8
9 But you are not in the flesh, you are in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Any one who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.
10 But if Christ is in you, although your bodies are dead because of sin, your spirits are alive because of righteousness.
11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will give life to your mortal bodies also through his Spirit which dwells in you.
9 But you are not in the flesh, you are in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Any one who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.
10 But if Christ is in you, although your bodies are dead because of sin, your spirits are alive because of righteousness.
11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will give life to your mortal bodies also through his Spirit which dwells in you.
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It is. I think what a lot of people miss is that this letter to the Corinthians is a rebuke for abuses in their church. They were dividing up into cliques based on who taught them.
1 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.
12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul? (1 Cor. 1:11-13 KJV)
He told them they were carnal and not spiritual.
And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal? (1 Cor. 3:1-4 KJV)
It appears they were judging Paul and he tells them to follow his teaching
3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.
4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.
5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God. (1 Cor. 4:3-5 KJV)
14 I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you.
15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.
16 Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me. (1 Cor. 4:14-16 KJV)
It seems they were challenging Paul's authority, to the point he would have to go there.
18 Now some are puffed up, as though I would not come to you.
19 But I will come to you shortly, if the Lord will, and will know, not the speech of them which are puffed up, but the power. (1 Cor. 4:18-19 KJV)
There was fornication among them and they were puffed up rather than mourning.
It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you. (1 Cor. 5:1-2 KJV)
Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? (1 Cor. 5:6 KJV)
They were taking each other to courts among the Gentiles.
Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints? (1 Cor. 6:1 KJV)
5 I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?
6 But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers.
7 Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded? (1 Cor. 6:5-7 KJV)
Again they were challenging his authority.
Am I not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? are not ye my work in the Lord?
2 If I be not an apostle unto others, yet doubtless I am to you: for the seal of mine apostleship are ye in the Lord.
3 Mine answer to them that do examine me is this,
4 Have we not power to eat and to drink?
5 Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and as the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas?
6 Or I only and Barnabas, have not we power to forbear working? (1 Cor. 9:1-6 KJV)
It seems they weren't practicing the head covering correctly.
2 Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.
3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head.
5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven. (1 Cor. 11:2-5 KJV)
he's going to address errors in their church meetings.
Now, he speaks of when they come together as a congregation. He said in this he praised them not, that they came together not for the better but for the worse.
17 Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse.
18 For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.
19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you. (1 Cor. 11:17-19 KJV)
He begins with their celebration of the Eucharist.
When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.
21 For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken. (1 Cor. 11:20-21 KJV)
Now he's going to address their abuses of Spiritual gifts.
Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.
3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. (1 Cor. 12:1-3 KJV)
In chapter 12 he explains the gifts and he lists tongues at the end of the list. I think it's obvious that tongues was one of the lesser gifts, yet it seems these Corinthians had elevated it far above where it should have been. I say that because Paul begins chapter 13, rather the gift of tongues. Notice in verse 1 he speaks of the three that will end.
Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. (1 Cor. 13:1-2 KJV)
So, it seems they were dwelling on the gifts but had no real care for people. He tells them that charity is what they should be caring about, not the gifts. The first verse of chapter 14 is quite interesting. Christians have made the gift of Tongues a top priority when Paul listed it last in the list. But, look at what Paul says they should seek.
Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy. (1 Cor. 14:1 KJV)
He would rather that they prophesy in the church than speak in tongues.
In verse 2 he says if you speak in tongues no one understands you. Only God understands. They're in the church supposedly to glorify God but no one knows what the guys is talking about. That's why Paul says, the guy speaks to God. How does this benefit the church? It doesn't. What does it do? It edifies the speaker. The speaker is building himself up rather than the church.
4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church. (1 Cor. 14:4 KJV)
But the one who prophesies, he edifies the church and not himself. Paul even says that the one who prophesied was greater than the one who spoke in tongues.
I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying. (1 Cor. 14:5 KJV)
He asks them, if he were to come to them speaking in tongues what would it profit them unless it was prophecy, knowledge, revelations or doctrine. Those are all things that can be understood. Foreign languages, or tongues couldn't be understood. Then he essentially says, unless you understand the language how will you know what is being said.
8 For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?
9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air. (1 Cor. 14:8-9 KJV)
He says unless the words are understood how will it be understood. You're essentially speaking into the air. You're making wind. It serves no purpose. This next verse is key, he acknowledges that they are zealous for Spiritual gifts, but he tells them to seek to edify the church. This shows clearly that when he said the one who speaks in tongues edifies himself, it was a bad thing.
11 Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.
12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church. (1 Cor. 14:11-12 KJV)
He goes on explaining how speaking in tongues in the church isn't beneficial and then draws the conclusion and points our that tongues was a sign to the unbeliever NOT the believer. When we go back and look at that passage it is judgment against Israel.
I think it's abundantly clear, if we keep things in context, that this is a rebuke of their misuse of the gift of tongues. All through this book Paul has been addressing things they've done wrong, both as individuals and collectively as a church. This Church was abusing the gift of tongue. Even after this Paul went on to address the issue that some were actually denying the Resurrection.
12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? (1 Cor. 15:12 KJV)
