Christian Perfectionism

[Furious_Love]

Can we really be perfect as we are sinners or are we being perfected as we live?

 

[David777]

Hello fallen.

Check this out and tell me what you think fallen.
1 John 4

15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God,
God abides in him, and he in God.

16 And we have known and believed the love that God has for us.
God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God in him.

17 Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness
in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world.

18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear,
because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love.

19 We love Him because He first loved us.

 

[Furious_Love]

Hello David

Thanks David for replying so quickly. I do not object to what you have said. I read all of 1 John to gain context of what you were saying. And yet I feel that I am driven for perfection yet cannot obtain it through my sin. I do love as I am commanded and fear not because the word tells me so (1 John 4:18). My sin makes me imperfect, so I am flawed and yet God made me in His own image. To be without sin means we are perfect, yet all fall short of the Glory of God (Rom 3:23) so how can we gain perfection?

 

[dannibear]

To try to strive for perfection is, at its worst, gaining salvation
through works. But we must everyday, strive to be more like
Christ. What I learned a long time ago:

If God said we had to be perfect to get to Heaven, why
did He send His son to die for our imperfection in sin?
And Christ knew we would mess up along the way of
becoming more like Him. That is why He says to
pick up our cross daily and follow Him.

Luke 9:23 Then he said to them all: "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me.

 

[Brother Mike]

Perfection.

Fallen:

Thanks David for replying so quickly. I do not object to what you have said. I read all of 1 John to gain context of what you were saying. And yet I feel that I am driven for perfection yet cannot obtain it through my sin.

Fallen, I can answer your question, but I need your definition of the Word Perfection. The Word means complete. Even Jesus was not perfect, when he started here, and to think we can skip the steps our Lord did not skip, is a path of frustration. If we follow what he did, it will be a great path.


Jesus Is Lord.

 

[dannibear]

Fallen:
Fallen, I can answer your question, but I need your definition of the Word Perfection. The Word means complete. Even Jesus was not perfect, when he started here, and to think we can skip the steps our Lord did not skip, is a path of frustration. If we follow what he did, it will be a great path.


Jesus Is Lord.

Mike, maybe I misunderstand, but how was Jesus
not perfect?

 

[Brother Mike]

Perfect.

Sorry about that Sister. I said Jesus was not perfect when he started here on earth, or started his ministry. I should have seen the issue with the Word perfect when looking though religion. We certainly understand the word in every day life. Perfect, Just means more work needs to be done to make something perfect or make it where nothing else added would make it better.


dannibear If you asked me to set up some chairs for a church meeting, and I set them up, only for you to come back and notice some chairs were in places where people would not really be able to see well, would those Chairs be set up perfect? Or would I need to go back and arrange some more?

You would say, "Mike, these chairs are not set up that well yet, it's not perfect." I nod my head and go back to try it again, this time making sure everyone could see and be as close as possible.

You come back and look at the chairs again, telling me, yes, this is perfect. Meaning the chairs are complete and set best as possible to have the church meeting.

Jesus said nobody is greater than the master, but can be like the Master.


Luk 6:40 The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.

We are told we can be like him. Everyone that is perfect. We certainly do not start out perfect or complete, and if the Master started out perfect and complete, we could not be like him as Jesus stated.

Luk 2:52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.

Jesus increased in wisdom, He increased in favor with God, and He increased in Favor with man. He spent hours, and hours learning and asking questions as a child, spent how many days in scrolls ever learning.

Perfect just means there is nothing you can add to make it better. Jesus added favor from God, He added more wisdom, he added stature with other men, He had to work for this, and was diligent.

and if we are to be like him, we need to follow his diligence, His compassion, His walk, His faithfulness in the small things.

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[judge not]

Fallen:
Fallen, I can answer your question, but I need your definition of the Word Perfection. The Word means complete. Even Jesus was not perfect, when he started here, and to think we can skip the steps our Lord did not skip, is a path of frustration. If we follow what he did, it will be a great path.


Jesus Is Lord.

The Bible is clear that Jesus was perfect.
2 Cor 5: 21 , 1 John 3:5

Jesus did not sin, ever

 

[dannibear]

Sorry about that Sister. I said Jesus was not perfect when he started here on earth, or started his ministry. I should have seen the issue with the Word perfect when looking though religion. We certainly understand the word in every day life. Perfect, Just means more work needs to be done to make something perfect or make it where nothing else added would make it better.


dannibear If you asked me to set up some chairs for a church meeting, and I set them up, only for you to come back and notice some chairs were in places where people would not really be able to see well, would those Chairs be set up perfect? Or would I need to go back and arrange some more?

You would say, "Mike, these chairs are not set up that well yet, it's not perfect." I nod my head and go back to try it again, this time making sure everyone could see and be as close as possible.

You come back and look at the chairs again, telling me, yes, this is perfect. Meaning the chairs are complete and set best as possible to have the church meeting.

Jesus said nobody is greater than the master, but can be like the Master.


Luk 6:40 The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.

We are told we can be like him. Everyone that is perfect. We certainly do not start out perfect or complete, and if the Master started out perfect and complete, we could not be like him as Jesus stated.

Luk 2:52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.

Jesus increased in wisdom, He increased in favor with God, and He increased in Favor with man. He spent hours, and hours learning and asking questions as a child, spent how many days in scrolls ever learning.

Perfect just means there is nothing you can add to make it better. Jesus added favor from God, He added more wisdom, he added stature with other men, He had to work for this, and was diligent.

and if we are to be like him, we need to follow his diligence, His compassion, His walk, His faithfulness in the small things.

Jesus Is Lord.

I am with judge not concerning His perfection.
Had Jesus not been a sinless lamb of God, His death on
the cross would not have been sufficient to pay our debt
of sin.

John 1:29
2 Corinthians 5:21
1 Peter 2:22

 

[Brother Mike]

be pefect.

Thank you Judge Not, I understand where your coming from, as I made the same statement to a Pastor once, and he looked at me in shock explaining that Jesus never sinned.

We are all here to learn.

Your definition of perfect is not even in the bible though, Let alone our English version of it. I ask that you study this and fix your definition. I'll help you get started.

Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Is it possible to be perfect like God? NO, with our short amount of time here, and seeing through a glass darkly we would never even come close.

This does not mean Jesus is wrong here. If he told us to do something, then it's possible.

So, we just misread this scripture is all, and need to remove some traditional thinking.

Jesus said, even as your Father which is in HEAVEN is Perfect.
Well, God is in Heaven, and how he runs Heaven, and corresponds with Earth, and all his wisdom for all things is complete and perfect. He does a fine Job up there, missing nothing.

We are on earth, so what does perfect mean, and how can we also be like God, running our race, doing the things we are suppose to do.

teleios
Thayer Definition:
1) brought to its end, finished
2) wanting nothing necessary to completeness
3) perfect
4) that which is perfect

Perfect: teleios
complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neuter (as noun, with G3588) completeness: - of full age, man, perfect.



Luk 3:22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.
Luk 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,

Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

Notice nothing mentioned about sin in the Greek definition of Perfect?
We have to add that, being confused of what perfect means, but outside of Church, we know exactly what perfect means. Just means complete, full age, ready to go. NO, Jesus did not sin, but I never mentioned that to start with.

I am with judge not concerning His perfection.
Had Jesus not been a sinless lamb of God, His death on
the cross would not have been sufficient to pay our debt
of sin.

John 1:29
2 Corinthians 5:21
1 Peter 2:22

Read above, How do we add Not sinned to the Word perfect, I gave the definition. Is there another definition I am not aware of?
I also never said that Jesus sinned, I said he was not perfect according to the Greek and English definition of the Word perfect.

If perfect means to have never sinned, then there are several scriptures in the Bible we can't obey or follow, though we are told to do so.

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[dannibear]

Thank you Judge Not, I understand where your coming from, as I made the same statement to a Pastor once, and he looked at me in shock explaining that Jesus never sinned.

We are all here to learn.

Your definition of perfect is not even in the bible though, Let alone our English version of it. I ask that you study this and fix your definition. I'll help you get started.

Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Is it possible to be perfect like God? NO, with our short amount of time here, and seeing through a glass darkly we would never even come close.

This does not mean Jesus is wrong here. If he told us to do something, then it's possible.

So, we just misread this scripture is all, and need to remove some traditional thinking.

Jesus said, even as your Father which is in HEAVEN is Perfect.
Well, God is in Heaven, and how he runs Heaven, and corresponds with Earth, and all his wisdom for all things is complete and perfect. He does a fine Job up there, missing nothing.

We are on earth, so what does perfect mean, and how can we also be like God, running our race, doing the things we are suppose to do.

teleios
Thayer Definition:
1) brought to its end, finished
2) wanting nothing necessary to completeness
3) perfect
4) that which is perfect

Perfect: teleios
complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neuter (as noun, with G3588) completeness: - of full age, man, perfect.



Luk 3:22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.
Luk 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,

Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

Notice nothing mentioned about sin in the Greek definition of Perfect?
We have to add that, being confused of what perfect means, but outside of Church, we know exactly what perfect means. Just means complete, full age, ready to go. NO, Jesus did not sin, but I never mentioned that to start with.

Read above, How do we add Not sinned to the Word perfect, I gave the definition. Is there another definition I am not aware of?
I also never said that Jesus sinned, I said he was not perfect according to the Greek and English definition of the Word perfect.

If perfect means to have never sinned, then there are several scriptures in the Bible we can't obey or follow, though we are told to do so.

Jesus Is Lord.

So then the definition that you provided for the word
perfect is really another word for experience?

complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neuter (as noun, with G3588) completeness: - of full age, man, perfect.

As you say, Jesus studied for many years, not even starting
His ministry until He was 30. So rather, not that He wasn't
perfect, but that He gained more experience in the knowledge
of the scriptures?

 

[Accune]

Yeah pursuing perfection yourself through your own strength can lead to so many problems.Only by the power of the Holy Spirit can you live holy.

“I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing" John 15:5

 

[Brother Mike]

Right

dannibear

So then the definition that you provided for the word
perfect is really another word for experience?

It can be, but we experience lots of things, and that does not make use equipped to do something, just may make us better at it.

Jesus Increased in even God's Approval of him, He increased in Wisdom. He said to the disciples they can not be greater than him, but if they be perfect, they can be like him. Which means he could no longer be added to, or made better in wisdom or God approval.

So, Jesus at the start of his great ministry, He did have experience, but it went beyond just getting better at something. He had to be perfected at this point where nothing else could be added to him. He certainly had God's full approval at this point, as God said this is my son, whom I am well pleased.

As you say, Jesus studied for many years, not even starting
His ministry until He was 30. So rather, not that He wasn't
perfect, but that He gained more experience in the knowledge
of the scriptures?

yes, Sister...... but once again, Perfect just means nothing else to add. Experience just means you know more about it, not that you have perfected it. We know Jesus was complete in everything when he started his ministry having passed the test in the desert to be tempted. At this point, He had all knowledge, all favor of God, and was perfect.

Just because you start a painting, and putting the first brush stroke down, does not mean anything is wrong with your painting, even though it's just a brush stroke.

It becomes perfect when no other brush stroke can be added, making it perfect, and complete.

IF I say that Jesus was flawed at the start, that means something was off, and wrong with him. We know that is not the case.

Accune

Yeah pursuing perfection yourself through your own strength can lead to so many problems.Only by the power of the Holy Spirit can you live holy.

Jesus said without me, ye can do nothing. I really plan to stop proving how true this is in my life, and listen more. I just had a major mess last year because God told me one thing, and I just went ahead and did the rest on my own.
Jesus Is Lord.

 

[dannibear]

dannibear
It can be, but we experience lots of things, and that does not make use equipped to do something, just may make us better at it.

Jesus Increased in even God's Approval of him, He increased in Wisdom. He said to the disciples they can not be greater than him, but if they be perfect, they can be like him. Which means he could no longer be added to, or made better in wisdom or God approval.

So, Jesus at the start of his great ministry, He did have experience, but it went beyond just getting better at something. He had to be perfected at this point where nothing else could be added to him. He certainly had God's full approval at this point, as God said this is my son, whom I am well pleased.

yes, Sister...... but once again, Perfect just means nothing else to add. Experience just means you know more about it, not that you have perfected it. We know Jesus was complete in everything when he started his ministry having passed the test in the desert to be tempted. At this point, He had all knowledge, all favor of God, and was perfect.

Just because you start a painting, and putting the first brush stroke down, does not mean anything is wrong with your painting, even though it's just a brush stroke.

It becomes perfect when no other brush stroke can be added, making it perfect, and complete.

IF I say that Jesus was flawed at the start, that means something was off, and wrong with him. We know that is not the case.

Accune


Jesus said without me, ye can do nothing. I really plan to stop proving how true this is in my life, and listen more. I just had a major mess last year because God told me one thing, and I just went ahead and did the rest on my own.
Jesus Is Lord.

I learn best by pictures, and I have to say, your
paint stroke illustration was spot on.
I understand now what you were trying to explain.
Thanks for being patient with me as I tried to grasp
your point.

 

[Donnie Ducati]

Can we really be perfect as we are sinners or are we being perfected as we live?

I think we can all answer that question without making it a long drown out theological discussion.

 

[faithfulservant]

We are perfect like God because we wear Jesus' robe of righteousness, as Jesus was perfect.

 

[Brother Mike]

Perfect.

dannibear

I learn best by pictures, and I have to say, your
paint stroke illustration was spot on.
I understand now what you were trying to explain.
Thanks for being patient with me as I tried to grasp
your point.

If you read my posts, you will often find something that just goes against religious thinking, and clouded heads. You may find a sacred cow or two lying in the road.

Be assured, I will always back everything with scripture. It's at this point where people choose to be clouded, or this point they wish to learn. It brings me joy that you pressed me on this matter.



Donnie Ducati

I think we can all answer that question without making it a long drown out theological discussion.

I am very curious to what your simple explanation is. Often it's not the answer that is important, but the question itself is wrong.

ByGraceAlone

We are perfect like God because we wear Jesus' robe of righteousness, as Jesus was perfect.

If we where perfect like God, Then would there be anything else we could add to ourselves to better our understanding of God, or have we all arrived already in wisdom, and spiritual understanding of things?

 

[gdemoss]

Following Jesus begins by turning away from sin. The very act of picking up your cross and denying yourself is living without known sin. Jesus said that if you do not do this, then you cannot be his disciple. That said, Jesus never said that you would be able to do it perfectly right from the start. He never said that you wouldn't fall down and drop your cross either. God spoke through Peter and told us we needed to add some stuff to our faith so that we would receive an abundant entrance into the kingdom. He said if we don't add this stuff then we are blind and cannot see afar off. We are assured that if we actually add these things to our faith that we shall never fall. This is what Mike is describing above when he uses the word perfect pertaining to us.

God goes on to tell us through Peter that it is possible to escape the corruption that is in the world through lust by having knowledge of him. This agrees with Jesus prayer in John. This is life eternal that they know thee the one true God and Jesus Christ whom thou has sent. And better yet, John also tells us that when Jesus comes we will see him as he is and therefore be like him. It is all about getting to know who God is and becoming like him. To be like him is to be without sin. One must first understand that they are sinning before they can confess and repent though. To say that one must be perfect out of the gate is to say that they must have a perfect knowledge of sin at the beginning as well. If that were true, we'd have no need for pastors and teachers that are given for the purpose of perfecting the saints as God spoke of through Paul in Ephesians.

The key to living without sin is the Word of God dwelling in you richly. As David spoke saying that he was hiding Gods word in his heart that he might not sin against him. Or Jesus, the Word of God, said that we must abide in him. Abide in the Word of God. Peter says that we are to be born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, the Word of God. And John comments saying that he that is born of God does not commit sin because his seed remains in him. That seed is the Word of God. It is all about being conformed to the image of Jesus Christ, the Word of God. Being conformed to the Word of God in obedience. Being sanctified in its truth and transformed by the renewing of our minds.

I used to read the bible for a few minutes on most days, even when I had to force myself because I really didn't feel like it. Now, I crave exposure to the word that it might expose any darkness that be hidden in some corner of my heart, that it be rooted out permanently. I am constantly trying to better understand exactly what sin is and what it looks like in our world today so that I can avoid it at all cost. I confess, or agree with what God says about it, when I am shown it and am cleansed from all unrighteousness.

One last word about perfection. This word has 3 forms that are used in scripture, an adjective, a verb and a noun. Hebrews tells us that Jesus was made perfect through sufferings. That he learned obedience by the things which he suffered. It isn't hard to be obedient when there is no resistance. But to go against the desires of ones flesh to do that which is commanded of God, is to learn obedience. Hebrews tells us that once we have the basic doctrine of Christ, laying on of hands, resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment then we can go on unto perfection. Carrying our Cross is to rid ourselves of all known sin. Being perfected is to increase in our knowledge of Jesus Christ, purging ourselves from all sin that we were formerly ignorant of, while being obedient even when there is resistance. Please don't fall for the error that this process is one that has no end in this life. Peter tells us that there are those who have escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. There were those who were clean escaped from those who live in error. I suspect that those who teach otherwise have some sin in their lives that they are not ignorant of, nor are letting go.

May the Love of God see you through all that you come to on this journey of being made perfect. May he be gentle when he chastens you and make the periods of scourging sufferable. And being made perfect, may you teach others to walk the walk of love for the glory of God in the person of Christ.

In Jesus Name,

Gary

 

[strawberry]

Can we really be perfect as we are sinners or are we being perfected as we live?

We will never be perfect in and of ourselves. However, in Christ, God sees us as perfect.

As Jesus is, so are we.

 

[Furious_Love]

Thankyou for all of your kind and encouraging words it means a lot to me.

Fallen, I can answer your question, but I need your definition of the Word Perfection.

Even though I had a wife and was starting a family I still had an emptiness that could not be filled. When I came to know Jesus it became relevant that the sin in me made me corrupted and incomplete and I needed saving from myself. The more I read scripture and attended church I began to feel a freedom I had not experienced before. I felt more alive and had a vigor for life. My life felt like it could not get any better. I took up my cross daily and was beginning to change for the positive being a man of God which brought so much joy for me, my family and friends.

The picture I painted seemed like perfection to me. I was growing in the Lord and became His servant. Pledging my life and allegiance to Jesus made life exciting and rich. The Spirit was touching my life and others around me.

Life throws us curve balls sometimes and what was once majestic became torturous and turned my life upside down. The joy I once had became an illusion that seemed distant and unattainable like it once was. I am a perfectionist by nature so what was once perfect for me was no more. My perfect life did not seem so perfect anymore. God has over the years has shown me what I need to lay at His feet to be His man again, I have given Him so much and He wants more.

So the question I asked comes from a decade of yearning to have that perfect life again. Through my trials I have learned that I am not perfect nor ever will be and I am saddened that it may never happen again. So when the Word says be perfect as your heavenly father is perfect I grieve because I know I can never attain it. I can only speak for myself and no one else. So I am willing to listen and learn from my peers. I hope I have answered your question Brother Mike.