Christians and the Tribulation

[Rhema]

Now you might consider yourself governed by man,

Oh for Pete's sake. I'm not the one running around here calling your church a cult or denying your guidance by the Holy Spirit. Why do you find it necessary to do that to me?

Now if you believe yourself to be at the pinnacle of total comprehension of the Gospel of Jesus, then what? You're just here to take pot shots at me? Rattle my cage? You wish me to validate your beliefs, and yet cannot find the grace to do so towards me?

I stand amazed that you cannot recognize the impact that Martin Luther has on your beliefs.

Am I now to presume that the Holy Spirit has guided you personally into some insight that was not accorded to Martin Luther? (I ask, because it might be so.)

And "governed by man" ?? I can allow that all of the elders in your church are believers, but at the end of it, somebody somewhere published governing rules for the style of your church service, the music, the finances, the statement of faith (or whatever) and all the other structures of behavior for your congregation. And rightly so...

(Acts 6:2-4 KJV) Then the twelve called the multitude of the disciples unto them, and said, It is not reason that we should leave the word of God, and serve tables. Wherefore, brethren, look ye out among you seven men of honest report, full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business. But we will give ourselves continually to prayer, and to the ministry of the word.​

So yeah, at some point, within your church, you're governed by man. (Assembly of God if I remember correctly.)

Furthermore, what word was being ministered, since none of the New Testament texts had been written yet?

but for your sake, I'd help you by asking you to just flip the coin to the other side.

Not without the direction of the Holy Spirit, since I was actually led to that which I believe today.

Nope. I've said it before, and I'll say it again. I'm a simple man. Personally, I have not read the AoP. Since you apparently have, do you believe it should be canon?

At this point, it's not a question of what I believe, it's a question of what the Holy Spirit has taught me, which would exclude the AoP as well as the AoJ. And for the sake of transparency, that includes Hebrews, but I'm not about to ridicule anyone if they need Holy Books, although that is fraught with danger. But I believe that one's faith should be based upon having direct interaction with God as the Holy Spirit cleanses our heart. The scriptures point to God, they should not be God.

depending on the age in question you will find as many interpretations as possible that man can come up with!

God is not pleased with this, no matter the interpretation. God was not pleased with David Koresh, God was not pleased with Harold Camping, God was not pleased with Joseph Smith, God was not pleased with William Miller, God was not pleased with Charles Taze Russell, God was not pleased with John Calvin, God was not pleased with Mary Baker Eddy, God was not pleased with John Darby. And God was not pleased with Athanasius.

But I also believe that you and I desire for God to be pleased with us.

I will not engage in a discussion about your subsequent input, as it appears to be disparaging rather than respectful towards the Word of God, which you evidently do not accept or regard as truth.

I cannot be disrespectful to that which is Not the Word of God.

But are we discussing Logos or Rhema?

Kindly,
Rhema

 

[Christ4Ever]

Ahgghhhh... you didn't wait.

lol - okay, let me know when I should or am allowed to reply to something you have posted that is directed to me.....
Meaning post#340 and after.

Oh, by the way, please stop chopping a part of something that I post to you that requires context to be understood. So, that you can move off on a tangent of your own desires. In the future, if all I see is this incomplete quote, I won't be responding to whatever you have written. Unless of course you are requesting a clarification.

 

[Rhema]

lol - okay, let me know when I should or am allowed to reply to something you have posted that is directed to me.....
Meaning post#340 and after.

If you're champing at the bit... by all means go ahead, but it will just result in a train wreck of posts scattered all over. (I try to avoid that if possible...)

Oh, by the way, please stop chopping a part of something that I post to you that requires context to be understood.

Interesting. I truly don't believe I've done this. And I don't believe that my replies ignored any context necessary.

If there is a particular passage you can cite as an example (by PM of course), it would be most appreciated.

Kindly,
Rhema

 

[Christ4Ever]

lol - okay, let me know when I should or am allowed to reply to something you have posted that is directed to me.....
Meaning post#340 and after.

If you're champing at the bit... by all means go ahead, but it will just result in a train wreck of posts scattered all over. (I try to avoid that if possible...)

Nope, haven't given it much of a thought since I posted my above reply. Just waiting for your go ahead, with the only thought being will I be able to make heads or tails of the entirety of what you've posted.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
Nick
\o/
<><
P.S.

Kindly,
Rhema

I noticed because of this one! lol

 

[Bill]

There has been a lot of debate about when the rapture is here on TalkJesus over the years. This is kind of related, but not necessarily.
Even if you believe in a "pre-trib" rapture, the fact remains there will be Christians that come out of the great tribulation. So maybe they got saved during the tribulation?
Either way, the Bible says at least some Christians will go through at least part of the tribulation.

Rev 7:9; After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and races of people and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands;
Rev 7:10; and they cry out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb."
Rev 7:11; And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures; and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God,
Rev 7:12; saying, "Amen, blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might, be to our God forever and ever. Amen."
Rev 7:13; Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?"
Rev 7:14; I said to him, "My lord, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

It says here that people from every nation and race of people will come out of the great tribulation.

Matt 24:21; "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.
Matt 24:22; "Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

Why are the "elect" still here, it seems at least some of the elect will go through the tribulation.
Mark say the same thing.

Mark 13:19; "For those days will be a time of tribulation such as has not occurred since the beginning of the creation which God created until now, and never will.
Mark 13:20; "Unless the Lord had shortened those days, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect, whom He chose, He shortened the days.

Rev 20:4; Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Some Christians will be beheaded during the tribulation by the beast, "because of their testimony of Jesus".
For most Christians I have spoken to over the years, the rapture seems to be an all or none type of thing. Either everyone gets raptured, or no one does, but there is a third option I have also heard.
For example the church of Smyrna...

Rev 2:10; 'Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to cast some of you into prison, so that you will be tested, and you will have tribulation for ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.

This church will face tribulation for at least "10 days" ( whether that is figurative, or literal remains unknown ). But yet the church of Philadelphia is told...
Rev 3:10; 'Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

So which is it? All get tested, none get tested, or some get tested and some don't?
Daniel says...

Dan 12:10; "Many will be purged, purified and refined, but the wicked will act wickedly; and none of the wicked will understand, but those who have insight will understand.
Dan 12:11; "From the time that the regular sacrifice is abolished and the abomination of desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days.

During the time of the abomination of desolation, "Many will be ... purified and refined". Surely this is speaking of believing Christians. I don't believe non-believers can be purified.

Daniel also says...

Dan 7:21; "I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and overpowering them

The beast is fighting with the saints and "overpowering" them. Is this a physical death, a spiritual death. This also is unknown. John says the same thing in Revelation.

Rev 13:7; It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and race of people and tongue and nation was given to him.

Why are the saints still here when the beast takes over? Maybe these are those who get saved during the tribulation, but even so, they are there.

There is more... but this is a pretty good start. Who are the Christians who go through the tribulation?

Something I have never understood about the pre-trip rapture concept isn't so much about those who feel they're leaving planet Earth but the fact of the matter is they jump to conclusions that only those who are leaving are Christians. It doesn't say that in the scripture. That phrase where it talks about two people in the field and one leaves. It doesn't say whether or not the other person is also a Christian

 

[Rhema]

It doesn't say that in the scripture. That phrase where it talks about two people in the field and one leaves. It doesn't say whether or not the other person is also a Christian

Yet in one portion of scripture it directly states that the non-Christian (those who do iniquity) are the ones to be removed from the Earth.

The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.​

(Matthew 13:38-43 KJV)

So then, who are the ones taken in chapter 24?

And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.​

(Matthew 24:39-42 KJV)

The flood took the evil ones away, and so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Rhema

And yes, I know of this verse:

And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.​

(Matthew 24:31 KJV)

But "elect" at its base root level just means "PICKED OUT ONES" or "SELECTED ONES." So yes, the angels shall gather together the ones selected to be removed - picked out for their iniquity - them that do iniquity selected to be removed.

LINK to Liddell Scott for "elect"

(Ears to hear ??)

 

[Bill]

Yet in one portion of scripture it directly states that the non-Christian (those who do iniquity) are the ones to be removed from the Earth.

The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.​

(Matthew 13:38-43 KJV)

So then, who are the ones taken in chapter 24?

And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.​

(Matthew 24:39-42 KJV)

The flood took the evil ones away, and so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Rhema

And yes, I know of this verse:

And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.​

(Matthew 24:31 KJV)

But "elect" at its base root level just means "PICKED OUT ONES" or "SELECTED ONES." So yes, the angels shall gather together the ones selected to be removed - picked out for their iniquity - them that do iniquity selected to be removed.

LINK to Liddell Scott for "elect"

(Ears to hear ??)

So you confuse everyone with the last judgment and try to call it the false teaching of the rapture.

The devil has been teaching you well

I guarantee you all those who think that they are Christians that feel that they are above everyone else will be tempted to take the Mark of the Beast. And they will take it, because they believe that they are the CHOSEN children of God. And nothing can affect them. They will be filled with their pride, and the lies of the devil will be fulfilled in them.

Be warned, everything in scripture is unfolding as we speak. It's only a matter of time now, because there is nothing holding back The Floodgate except for Donald Trump.

When you pray, do you pray for the Salvation of the world? Or do you pray for the ending of the world so that you can go and run off into heaven with your false teaching of the rapture. Hypocrites

 

[Rhema]

The devil has been teaching you well

WHOA whoa there pardner....

C'mon Bill, there's no need for that. And I can assure you that I've never posted against you, but I did (and should) exercise caution, not taking things for granted, since I don't know you all that well. (I also don't know who "David" is, but that's a never-mind...)

So you confuse everyone with the last judgment and try to call it the false teaching of the rapture.

Okay, so you think, then, that I'm confusing everyone by just accepting what is actually written? Rather one should think that a lot of other people are confused because they Don't read what is actually written. BUT, I would ask that you clarify a bit, instead of thinking it's Godly to bite my head off.... just what is this "it" that I'm calling "the false teaching of the Rapture"?

Do you mean to say that I'm calling the Rapture a false teaching? If by "Rapture" you mean the common pervasive doctrine held by the Evangelical Protestant church, then, okay. I guess I do see a teaching that the Second Coming has two parts (A and B) separated by seven years to be false. That would actually be a Second Coming followed by a Third Coming seven years later. And I don't believe in that either. Up until the rapid outbreak of widespread eschatological apostasy in the early and mid 1800's, the church had always held that there's only ONE Second Coming - the Day of the Lord.

But unless I'm mistaken, you see the Rapture as a mid-trib event, no? (And I might be mistaken.)

MANY false doctrines arise from what are called Linguistic Artifacts, which are an illusion of translation, such as this "special" group called "The Elect." I just happen to think that there isn't just one specific "special" group, but that the people who are spoken of as being selected vary depending upon the context of the passage.

I guarantee you all those who think that they are Christians that feel that they are above everyone else

Wait... is this directed at me ?? If so, why? Because I don't think that I'm above everyone else, though people tend to leap to that conclusion because of my erudition.

will be tempted to take the Mark of the Beast. And they will take it, because they believe that they are the CHOSEN children of God.

Okay, again you might need to clarify. I still cannot tell if this is a general statement or if it's directed at me.

They will be filled with their pride, and the lies of the devil will be fulfilled in them.

Truly, what set this off ?? I'm not King-J, nor have I condemned your prophecies, your profession of being Catholic, or any of the out-workings of the gifts of the Holy Spirit working in your life. Were I to do so, I'd be condemning myself.

Be warned, everything in scripture is unfolding as we speak. It's only a matter of time now, because there is nothing holding back The Floodgate except for Donald Trump.

There are other things that I think are involved, though I've not posted about them. But I also don't know what you mean by "The Floodgate." It almost sounds as if you're saying that Donald Trump is holding back the Antichrist. ??? Which is why I AM asking for clarification.

When you pray, do you pray for the Salvation of the world?

I pray for the Lord to use me as He sees fit in whatever He would have me set my hand to, as He builds His church.

Or do you pray for the ending of the world so that you can go and run off into heaven with your false teaching of the rapture.

????

But Bill, I don't believe that people disappear running off into heaven. My post was pretty clear, that the ones who disappear are those working iniquity.

The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;​

(Matthew 13:39, 41 KJV)

Are you sure you don't have me confused with someone else? (Like everyone else?)

Hypocrites

Okay... since that was plural, you don't mean ME singular? Or are you lumping me with everyone else on the forum?

I truly hope that you find the time and patience to clarify what the heck you're all upset about here, and take the time to explain it.

Rhema
Unfortunately, I'm gone until the middle of next week.

 

[KingJ]

Something I have never understood about the pre-trip rapture concept isn't so much about those who feel they're leaving planet Earth but the fact of the matter is they jump to conclusions that only those who are leaving are Christians. It doesn't say that in the scripture. That phrase where it talks about two people in the field and one leaves. It doesn't say whether or not the other person is also a Christian

I personally believe all babies, children, mentally handicapped and Christians will be raptured pre-trib. I will concede to the possibility that, just as many find Jesus on their deathbed, it may be possible that there be some very good people that say 'yes' to accepting Jesus just before the actual rapture takes place.

We serve such a good God. He considers everything. The only people being left behind are those who will need the type of filtering process the tribulation is going to give, to come to Him. IE Some will not deal with the need to repent of their sins until you start throwing plagues at them.

 

[Rhema]

I personally believe all babies, children, mentally handicapped and Christians will be raptured pre-trib.

How do you account for this passage? Where the wicked are the ones who disappear?

He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.​

(Matthew 13:37-43 KJV)

 

[KingJ]

How do you account for this passage? Where the wicked are the ones who disappear?

He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.​

(Matthew 13:37-43

Apples and oranges.

Your passage refers to an event that takes place at the end of this world. "So shall it be at the end of this world".

 

[Rhema]

Your passage refers to an event that takes place at the end of this world. "So shall it be at the end of this world".

Indeed. It's the Same event KJ.

And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?​

(Matthew 24:3 KJV)

The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.​

(Matthew 13:39 KJV)

The wicked are the ones who disappear.

Rhema

 

[KingJ]

Indeed. It's the Same event KJ.

And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?​

(Matthew 24:3 KJV)

The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.​

(Matthew 13:39 KJV)

The wicked are the ones who disappear.

Rhema

Before I answer, for clarity, do you believe 'end of world' is after Armageddon or after the millennium period?

 

[B-A-C]

Before I answer, for clarity, do you believe 'end of world' is after Armageddon or after the millennium period?

Isa 65:17 "For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; And the former things will not be remembered or come to mind.
Isa 66:22 "For just as the new heavens and the new earth Which I make will endure before Me," declares the LORD, "So your offspring and your name will endure.
2Pet 3:13 But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.
Rev 21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea.

 

[B-A-C]

Matt 12:32 "Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.
Mark 10:30 but that he will receive a hundred times as much now in the present age, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and farms, along with persecutions; and in the age to come, eternal life.
Luke 18:30 who will not receive many times as much at this time and in the age to come, eternal life."
Eph 1:21 far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come.
Heb 6:5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,

I believe this current age will end someday, and a new age will begin. I tend to believe this will coincide with the new heavens and new earth.

 

[Rhema]

Before I answer, for clarity, do you believe 'end of world' is after Armageddon or after the millennium period?

Which Armageddon?

LINK to ... So many different ideas sprouting from just one single verse...
... in a book that you know we reject as canon.

And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.​

(Revelation 16:16 KJV)

Which of the 12 passages in the Hebrew Bible does your Rev 16:16 refer to? Some of them? Or all of them? Were you there watching the mourning of Hadad-rimmon?

Before I answer, for clarity, do you believe 'end of world' is after Armageddon or after the millennium period?

And which Millennium period?

LINK to ... So many different ideas about a fictional time from ...
... a book that you know we reject as canon.

Your question, as I'm sure you've crafted on purpose, cannot be answered because YOU haven't described which is your Armageddon or which is your Millennium.

So please do clarify, then, as my two links show many differing ideas. Which am I supposed address? From what I can see, you believe in two Second Comings, and two Resurrections. But whenever Jesus spoke of the Resurrection, it's Singular, not Plural, indeed in the entirety of the Gospels, the Resurrection is singular. There's just one.

Rhema

(I think "End of the World" is pretty clear.)

 

[KingJ]

Which Armageddon?

LINK to ... So many different ideas sprouting from just one single verse...
... in a book that you know we reject as canon.

And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.​

(Revelation 16:16 KJV)

Which of the 12 passages in the Hebrew Bible does your Rev 16:16 refer to? Some of them? Or all of them? Were you there watching the mourning of Hadad-rimmon?


And which Millennium period?

LINK to ... So many different ideas about a fictional time from ...
... a book that you know we reject as canon.

Your question, as I'm sure you've crafted on purpose, cannot be answered because YOU haven't described which is your Armageddon or which is your Millennium.

So please do clarify, then, as my two links show many differing ideas. Which am I supposed address? From what I can see, you believe in two Second Comings, and two Resurrections. But whenever Jesus spoke of the Resurrection, it's Singular, not Plural, indeed in the entirety of the Gospels, the Resurrection is singular. There's just one.

Rhema

(I think "End of the World" is pretty clear.)

This is where our chat ends. I feel you need to go to bible school and then come back.

 

[KingJ]

Matt 12:32 "Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.
Mark 10:30 but that he will receive a hundred times as much now in the present age, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and farms, along with persecutions; and in the age to come, eternal life.
Luke 18:30 who will not receive many times as much at this time and in the age to come, eternal life."
Eph 1:21 far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come.
Heb 6:5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,

I believe this current age will end someday, and a new age will begin. I tend to believe this will coincide with the new heavens and new earth.

We are in agreement.

Scripture goes into quite a bit of detail on the tribulation, millennium period and thereafter the New Jerusalem. It is as though God wants us to know His plans well. Nobody can say they did not know.

 

[Rhema]

This is where our chat ends. I feel you need to go to bible school and then come back.

Why am I not surprised. You demand clarification from me, but then refuse to do so when I ask.

I've got a feeling that the Moravian Seminary and Princeton Theological Seminary are a bit more acclaimed than some rando "bible school." If you could perhaps name the ones you've attended like I have? So I can take a look at their credibility?

I feel you need to go read what is actually written. Those who do iniquity are the ones who disappear at the "Rapture" at the end of the world.

You won't answer because you don't have an answer.

Rhema

 

[Rhema]

We are in agreement.

Perhaps @B-A-C would deign to clarify, but I'm pretty sure his taciturn posts were meant to show that he did not agree with you.

I mean I would certainly appreciate a clarification.

Rhema