Debunking Calvinism

[Twistie]

without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast
Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations."

He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake

And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Abba New who would return and who wouldn't yet He didn't tweek not one to do as He wanted..

We all have choices and Abba already knows what we will choose..

Hope alls well
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[Twistie]

Calvinists don't believe we have free will to choose Jesus due to our fallen state. There are endless debates about this "Total Depravity". I don't agree with Calvinists.

• I'm bad at earning money but I can wish I had the ability to earn a billion dollars. I'm still bad at earning money and will never earn a billion dollars. End of story. (actually God provides all I need)
• In my fallen state I had zero ability to earn forgiveness and eternal life but I could wish that I could obtain it. Along comes the Holy Spirit filling me with the desire to know Christ. I now have forgiveness and eternal life despite still having zero ability to earn forgiveness and eternal life. It's a free gift.

Some people (focusing on certain verses) will say that my desiring the gift is a good action on my part making me earn eternal life which contradicts the bible verses stating we can't earn it.

Some (focusing on other verses) will say that God wants us to seek Him and knock and we will find and He will answer.

The fact is all bible verses are true. People who are too smart for their own good will create models of interpretation to explain away some clear bible truths that don't fit their model. Even in quantum physics a single electron can be in two different places at the same time. Is the particle here now or over there now? The true answer is it's both here and there now. Did I choose God or did God choose me? What is the single deciding factor that tipped the balance? The true answer is both are the single deciding factor. Our tiny human brains have a problem wrapping our minds around the apparent tension. That is to be expected when reading the word of the infinite Creator. If He chooses to do so He can make this process clear to us when we are finally with Him. The joy of being with God will probably be so immense that these implementation details likely won't matter to us then.

@Twistie you have a better understanding of God because you know Jesus is alive and have a relationship with Him than the highest IQ Christian with the most sophisticated theological model can ever have.

If people would take time n just get to know Him it be much simpler... anyone who doesn't know Him thats on them all they have to do is give Him time.. funny isnt it?..how time is given freely to us yet many dont want to share it with the One who gave it to us..

Hope alls well

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[KingJ]

Reconciliation and Justification: The Scriptural Connection​

Many deny that reconciliation has a direct forensic connection with justification. But when the relevant passages are compared, Scripture presents a powerful chain of truth concerning those reconciled to God by the death of Christ.

Paul writes:


Notice what Paul explicitly states.

The reconciliation was:

By the death of God's Son.

And it occurred:

When we were enemies.

The text does not say that Christ's death merely made reconciliation possible and that reconciliation occurred only when the sinner later supplied faith as an independent condition. Paul says:


The question is therefore: What does this reconciliation involve?

Paul gives us further light in 2 Corinthians 5:19:


Here reconciliation is explicitly connected with:

“Not imputing their trespasses unto them.”

That is a profoundly forensic statement.

Those whom God reconciles are described as those whose trespasses are not imputed to them.

Therefore, when Romans 5:10 says that we were reconciled to God by Christ's death while we were enemies, and 2 Corinthians 5:19 describes reconciliation in terms of the non-imputation of trespasses, Scripture establishes a direct connection between Christ's reconciling death and the removal of sin from the judicial account of those reconciled.

Now consider David's words:


Paul quotes this passage in Romans 4 while discussing justification:


Notice Paul's argument.

He introduces David's words by saying that David describes:


Then Paul supports that statement by quoting David's description of:

The forgiveness of sins.

The covering of sins.

The non-imputation of sin.

Thus Paul directly places the non-imputation of sin within his discussion of the blessedness of the person to whom God imputes righteousness without works.

The passages therefore establish the following connection:

Romans 5:10:
We were reconciled to God by the death of His Son while we were enemies.

2 Corinthians 5:19:
Reconciliation involves God not imputing trespasses to those reconciled.

Romans 4:6–8:
The non-imputation of sin is set within Paul's explanation of the blessedness of the person to whom God imputes righteousness without works.

Therefore, reconciliation accomplished by Christ's death cannot be treated as though it were merely a vague change of attitude or an empty possibility waiting for the sinner to make Christ's work effective.

Christ's death accomplished reconciliation.

Reconciliation is described in forensic terms involving the non-imputation of trespasses.

And Paul connects that blessed non-imputation with the imputation of righteousness without works.

That is why I maintain that those whom Christ reconciled to God by His death while they were enemies stood before God on the basis of Christ's accomplished work—not on the basis of any works they later performed.

The issue is not whether faith is necessary. Scripture plainly teaches that God's people believe.

The issue is whether faith is the judicial ground that causes Christ's death to become effective before God.

These passages point elsewhere.

Christ's death reconciles.

Reconciliation involves the non-imputation of trespasses.

The non-imputation of sin is inseparably connected in Romans 4 with the blessedness of imputed righteousness without works.

Therefore, the forensic basis of acceptance with God is found in Christ's accomplished work, not in anything produced by the sinner.

Faith does not provide the righteousness.

Christ does.

Faith does not satisfy divine justice.

Christ's blood does.

And faith does not cause God to discover a reason to reconcile sinners.

Christ reconciled His people to God by His death.

That is the force of Romans 5:10.

You have AI repeating the same arguments in every post. You might need to check in with it, it's going in circles.

I'd love to see your AI prompts: "Dear AI, please keep repeating inferences and assumptions ad nauseam."

The Terror of Standing Before God as a False Teacher

 

[Bill]

Many professing Christians identify as Calvinists, while others dismiss Calvinism as merely another harmless theological difference. It is not. Christians should understand what Calvinism actually teaches and test it carefully against Scripture rather than being naive about its implications.

At its core, Calvinism portrays God as arbitrarily favouring a select few for salvation while withholding the saving grace necessary for the rest to believe. That portrayal seriously conflicts with Scripture's repeated declaration that God is good, just, impartial, desires all to be saved, and is “no respecter of persons.”

Some elements of TULIP may appear biblical when considered in isolation, which is precisely why Calvinism can be so deceptive. A false doctrine does not have to look entirely false; it can take genuine biblical truths, distort them, and use them to construct a false system. If you identify yourself as a Calvinist, you should understand that Calvinism is fundamentally the entire TULIP (5 point) system, not merely a belief in election or God's sovereignty.

Any who teach and support this belief need to please carefully read my thread here - The Terror of Standing Before God as a False Teacher

This thread will examine and debunk Calvinism in two parts:

Part 1 — The logical and theological contradictions of Calvinism

Part 2 — Ten of the strongest Scriptural arguments against Calvinism

May Jesus fill us with his love and wisdom

You're absolutely correct, and understanding that Calvinism is not of the Lord. And I'm glad you're putting it into words like this for everyone to read.

I only know it because of my spiritual experiences, I know for a fact that myself for instance, when I sin, my sons have a greater impact than others. It has to do with the fact that where much is given much is expected. And as I have been given a lot, then a lot is expected of me.

I know that I can use scripture as an example, but few actually believe that Judas was written and the Book of Life, even though it says it in the scripture.

After the apostles returned to Jesus with the other disciples that had sent and sent out two by two. They had been preaching in the towns and healing people and casting out demons. It states Jesus says to them, "Rejoice that your names are written in heaven" I'd like to point out that in the Scripture it States the names of the Apostles including the full name of Judas Iscariot as the group that came back. And I do think it's a little bit curious of all the names of all the apostles that are written in Scripture it is Judas is curious full name that was posted. I think there is purpose for this to teach us and to let us know that he is one of those whose names were written in heaven. And yet chose to take his own path, and betrayed Jesus later on.

We can see this also with Peter, or Jesus betrayed Jesus by saying I do not know him. But the big difference is between Peter and Judas is that Peter repented and came back to the Lord. Were Judas did not.

I also truly believe that the passage about the righteous in the scripture is primarily written about Judas. Because wasn't he one of those who was healing people and casting out demons in the name of Jesus. And hear the king Rejects Judas staying away from me I never knew you

 

[KingJ]

4. You Are Arraigning God, Not Me

You write: "Calling the father's decision sovereign does not automatically make it good. Calling it unconditional does not automatically make it just."
Look at what you are doing. You are openly setting up your own 21st-century humanistic morality as the judge over God's actions. When Paul lays out individual, unconditional election in Romans 9, he anticipates your exact emotional outrage. He asks: "Is there unrighteousness with God?" (v. 14). He does not answer by giving your "two sons" analogy to prove God is nice to everyone. He answers by doubling down on raw sovereignty: "Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth" (v. 18).

When you scream that this isn't "good" or "just" according to your human metrics, you are the very man Paul is rebuking in Romans 9:20: "Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?"

BF, I don't know how many times I will have to explain Romans 9 to Calvinists in my lifetime.

You have Paul facepalming every time Romans 9 is ripped out of its context and turned into a blank cheque for Calvinism.

Paul's point in Romans 9:20-21 is that God is God. He has the right to do whatever He pleases and nobody has the authority to put Him in the dock and judge Him.

The problem for Calvinism is that the rest of Scripture tells us what God actually chooses to do with that sovereignty.

God is good.

God is impartial.

God is just.

God is not willing that any should perish.

God desires all men to be saved.

God wants us to judge Him and know that He is good.

Romans 9 does not give Calvinists permission to ignore the many passages that describe God's goodness, justice, impartiality and love.

Are passages like these are torn from your bible?

• Psalm 34:8 — "Oh taste and see that the LORD is good."
• Psalm 100:5 — "For the LORD is good; his mercy is everlasting."
• Psalm 107:1 — "O give thanks unto the LORD, for he is good."
• Psalm 118:1 — "O give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good."
• Psalm 136:1 — "O give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good."
• Psalm 145:9 — "The LORD is good to all."
• Psalm 145:17 — "The LORD is righteous in all his ways, and holy in all his works."
• Nahum 1:7 — "The LORD is good, a strong hold in the day of trouble."
• Exodus 34:6 — God is "abundant in goodness and truth."
• Exodus 33:19 — "I will make all my goodness pass before thee."
• Nehemiah 9:25 — God gave Israel "good things."
• Nehemiah 9:35 — Reference to God's "great goodness."
• Psalm 23:6 — "Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me."
• Psalm 25:8 — "Good and upright is the LORD."
• Psalm 31:19 — "Oh how great is thy goodness."
• Psalm 52:1 — "The goodness of God endureth continually."
• Psalm 65:4 — "We shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house."
• Psalm 73:1 — "Truly God is good to Israel."
• Psalm 86:5 — "For thou, Lord, art good."
• Psalm 119:68 — "Thou art good, and doest good."
• Psalm 135:3 — "Praise the LORD; for the LORD is good."
• Psalm 143:10 — "Thy spirit is good."
• Jeremiah 33:11 — "For the LORD is good."
• Lamentations 3:25 — "The LORD is good unto them that wait for him."
• Lamentations 3:26 — "It is good that a man should both hope and quietly wait for the salvation of the LORD."
• Joel 2:13 — God is gracious, merciful, and kind.
• Jonah 4:2 — God is gracious and merciful, slow to anger and of great kindness.
• Matthew 5:45 — God sends rain on the just and unjust.
• Matthew 7:11 — The Father gives good things to those who ask Him.
• Matthew 19:17 — "There is none good but one, that is, God."
• Mark 10:18 — "There is none good but one, that is, God."
• Luke 6:35 — God is kind to the unthankful and evil.
• Luke 18:19 — "None is good, save one, that is, God."
• Acts 14:17 — God gave rain and fruitful seasons and filled hearts with gladness.
• Romans 2:4 — "The goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance."
• Romans 8:28 — God works all things together for good.
• Romans 11:22 — "Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God."
• Ephesians 2:7 — God shows the exceeding riches of His grace in kindness.
• Titus 3:4 — "The kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared."
• James 1:17 — Every good gift comes from God.
• 1 Peter 2:3 — "If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious."
• 1 John 4:8 — "God is love."
• 1 John 4:16 — "God is love."
• 2 Chronicles 5:13 — "For he is good; for his mercy endureth for ever."
• 2 Chronicles 7:3 — "For he is good."
• Ezra 3:11 — "For he is good."
• Psalm 27:13 — "I had fainted, unless I had believed to see the goodness of the LORD."
• Psalm 33:5 — "The earth is full of the goodness of the LORD."
• Psalm 84:11 — "No good thing will he withhold from them that walk uprightly."
• Romans 5:8 — God demonstrated His love toward us while we were yet sinners.

This is exactly why so many people reject Calvinism. It requires an epic level of cherry-picking and reading far more into Romans 9 than Paul actually says.

The rest of Scripture tells us who God is. Romans 9 does not cancel God's goodness, impartiality, love, justice and desire to save. It must be interpreted in harmony with them.

 

[Twistie]

Lol

 

[Brightfame52]

BF, I don't know how many times I will have to explain Romans 9 to Calvinists in my lifetime.

You have Paul facepalming every time Romans 9 is ripped out of its context and turned into a blank cheque for Calvinism.

Paul's point in Romans 9:20-21 is that God is God. He has the right to do whatever He pleases and nobody has the authority to put Him in the dock and judge Him.

The problem for Calvinism is that the rest of Scripture tells us what God actually chooses to do with that sovereignty.

God is good.

God is impartial.

God is just.

God is not willing that any should perish.

God desires all men to be saved.

God wants us to judge Him and know that He is good.

Romans 9 does not give Calvinists permission to ignore the many passages that describe God's goodness, justice, impartiality and love.

Are passages like these are torn from your bible?

• Psalm 34:8 — "Oh taste and see that the LORD is good."
• Psalm 100:5 — "For the LORD is good; his mercy is everlasting."
• Psalm 107:1 — "O give thanks unto the LORD, for he is good."
• Psalm 118:1 — "O give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good."
• Psalm 136:1 — "O give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good."
• Psalm 145:9 — "The LORD is good to all."
• Psalm 145:17 — "The LORD is righteous in all his ways, and holy in all his works."
• Nahum 1:7 — "The LORD is good, a strong hold in the day of trouble."
• Exodus 34:6 — God is "abundant in goodness and truth."
• Exodus 33:19 — "I will make all my goodness pass before thee."
• Nehemiah 9:25 — God gave Israel "good things."
• Nehemiah 9:35 — Reference to God's "great goodness."
• Psalm 23:6 — "Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me."
• Psalm 25:8 — "Good and upright is the LORD."
• Psalm 31:19 — "Oh how great is thy goodness."
• Psalm 52:1 — "The goodness of God endureth continually."
• Psalm 65:4 — "We shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house."
• Psalm 73:1 — "Truly God is good to Israel."
• Psalm 86:5 — "For thou, Lord, art good."
• Psalm 119:68 — "Thou art good, and doest good."
• Psalm 135:3 — "Praise the LORD; for the LORD is good."
• Psalm 143:10 — "Thy spirit is good."
• Jeremiah 33:11 — "For the LORD is good."
• Lamentations 3:25 — "The LORD is good unto them that wait for him."
• Lamentations 3:26 — "It is good that a man should both hope and quietly wait for the salvation of the LORD."
• Joel 2:13 — God is gracious, merciful, and kind.
• Jonah 4:2 — God is gracious and merciful, slow to anger and of great kindness.
• Matthew 5:45 — God sends rain on the just and unjust.
• Matthew 7:11 — The Father gives good things to those who ask Him.
• Matthew 19:17 — "There is none good but one, that is, God."
• Mark 10:18 — "There is none good but one, that is, God."
• Luke 6:35 — God is kind to the unthankful and evil.
• Luke 18:19 — "None is good, save one, that is, God."
• Acts 14:17 — God gave rain and fruitful seasons and filled hearts with gladness.
• Romans 2:4 — "The goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance."
• Romans 8:28 — God works all things together for good.
• Romans 11:22 — "Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God."
• Ephesians 2:7 — God shows the exceeding riches of His grace in kindness.
• Titus 3:4 — "The kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared."
• James 1:17 — Every good gift comes from God.
• 1 Peter 2:3 — "If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious."
• 1 John 4:8 — "God is love."
• 1 John 4:16 — "God is love."
• 2 Chronicles 5:13 — "For he is good; for his mercy endureth for ever."
• 2 Chronicles 7:3 — "For he is good."
• Ezra 3:11 — "For he is good."
• Psalm 27:13 — "I had fainted, unless I had believed to see the goodness of the LORD."
• Psalm 33:5 — "The earth is full of the goodness of the LORD."
• Psalm 84:11 — "No good thing will he withhold from them that walk uprightly."
• Romans 5:8 — God demonstrated His love toward us while we were yet sinners.

This is exactly why so many people reject Calvinism. It requires an epic level of cherry-picking and reading far more into Romans 9 than Paul actually says.

The rest of Scripture tells us who God is. Romans 9 does not cancel God's goodness, impartiality, love, justice and desire to save. It must be interpreted in harmony with them.

KingJ, you have completely missed the point of my argument.

I never said that God is not good, just, loving, righteous, merciful, or kind. Of course He is. Your enormous list of verses proving that God is good does absolutely nothing to answer the question.

The question is whether God's goodness requires Him to give the same saving mercy to every individual without exception.

Romans 9 answers that question explicitly.

When Paul anticipates the objection:

“Is there unrighteousness with God?” (Romans 9:14)

he does not answer:

“No, because God gives saving mercy equally to everyone.”

Instead, Paul immediately quotes God:

“I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.”

Then Paul draws the conclusion:

“So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.”

And then:

“Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.”

So yes, KingJ, God is good.

But Romans 9 explicitly teaches that His goodness does not mean that He is obligated to distribute saving mercy equally to all.

That is the point you keep avoiding.

You say:

“God is impartial.”

Fine. But impartiality in judgment does not mean God is obligated to show identical mercy to every sinner.

If mercy were owed equally to everyone, it would no longer be mercy.

Paul's whole argument is that mercy is sovereignly bestowed:

“I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy.”

You cannot erase that statement by posting fifty verses about God's goodness.

In fact, Exodus 33—the very passage Paul quotes—identifies God's sovereign mercy with the revelation of His goodness. God says:

“I will make all my goodness pass before thee... and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.” (Exodus 33:19)

Do you see the problem with your argument?

The sovereign distinction in mercy that you are calling incompatible with God's goodness is itself presented in Exodus 33:19 as part of the revelation of God's goodness.

So I do not have to choose between saying:

God is good

and saying:

God hath mercy on whom He will have mercy.

Scripture teaches both.

Your argument assumes that for God to be good, He must love and save every individual without exception in exactly the same way. But that assumption is not found in Scripture.

Romans 9 explicitly teaches the opposite: God remains perfectly righteous while sovereignly distinguishing vessels of mercy according to His own purpose.

That is not me putting human morality above God.

That is simply believing what Paul actually says.

 

[Brightfame52]

Polished Rebuttal Post for Your Debate Thread

To KingJ:

You claim that I have Paul facepalming over Romans 9, and you throw a massive wall of texts at me to prove that God is good, just, and loving. You assert that Calvinism ignores these passages.

Let me make this transparently clear: I do not deny a single verse you posted. I rejoice in the truth that God is absolutely good, righteous, dynamic, and loving.

The fatal defect in your response is that you have committed a massive category error. You believe that for God to be "good," He must distribute His saving grace equally to every single individual human being without exception. You have set up a humanistic, democratic definition of goodness and ordered God to conform to it.

Let us look closely at your own text-bomb to see how the Holy Ghost completely dismantles your argument:

1. You Quoted the Ultimate Proof Text for Sovereignty: Exodus 33:19

In your list, you proudly quoted Exodus 33:19: "I will make all my goodness pass before thee." You thought this proved your point. Did you bother to read the very next sentence in that verse?

"And I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy."

God Himself defines the manifestation of His supreme goodness as an act of raw, unconditional sovereignty! He does not say, "I will show my goodness by being equally available to everyone." He says His goodness is displayed in His sovereign right to choose the objects of His mercy. This is the exact verse Paul rips out of Exodus and drops into Romans 9:15 to silence your exact objection. You have weaponized a text that explicitly defends High Calvinism!

2. Your Own Verses Restrict God's Goodness to a Defined People

You posted a long list of Psalms, claiming they prove a universal, egalitarian goodness. Yet, if you read them according to the text and not your traditions, they completely limit themselves:

• You quoted Psalm 73:1: "Truly God is good to Israel..." But who is Israel? As Paul proves in Romans 9:6, "They are not all Israel, which are of Israel." It is restricted to the Israel of God—the elect.
• You quoted Psalm 143:10: "Thy spirit is good." Who is He speaking to? "...lead me into the land of uprightness." This is a prayer of a quickened saint.
• You quoted Lamentations 3:25: "The LORD is good unto them that wait for him, to the soul that seeketh him." Does every individual human being in the lake of fire wait for or seek Him? No. Romans 3:11 says, "There is none that seeketh after God." Therefore, God's special, saving goodness is explicitly restricted to those whom the Holy Spirit has sovereignly quickens in Phase III (The Vital Phase) to cause them to seek Him.

3. You Confuse Providential Goodness with Saving Grace

You cite Matthew 5:45 (rain falling on the just and unjust) and Acts 14:17 (fruitful seasons filling hearts with gladness).

• John Gill’s Defense: As John Gill masterfully argues in The Cause of God and Truth, no Calvinist denies God's universal providential goodness. God is a kind Creator who gives temporal life, breath, sunshine, and rain to all men—even to the reprobate who hate Him.
• But you are trying to turn sunshine and rain into eternal salvation. Giving a non-elect man rain for his crops does not keep his soul out of hell. You are confusing the temporal scaffolding of this world with the Everlasting Covenant ordered in all things and sure.

4. The Impartiality of God Destroys Your System

You claim God is "impartial," implying He must give everyone an equal chance.

• If God is salvifically impartial in the way you define it, why did He choose physical Israel in the Old Testament and leave the Gentile nations to perish in darkness for thousands of years? (Psalm 147:20 - "He hath not dealt so with any nation: and as for his judgments, they have not known them.")
• God's impartiality means He is no respecter of persons (Acts 10:34). It means when He elected His people in Phase I (The Eternal Phase), He did not look at their wealth, their race, their social status, or their works. He chose them unconditionally out of pure sovereign grace. If God chose people based on their "choice" to believe, as you claim, He would be a respecter of persons—He would be respecting the man who was smart enough to choose Him over the man who wasn't!

Conclusion

Romans 9 does not "ignore" or "cancel" God's goodness and justice; Romans 9 defines them.
God is perfectly just when He sends sinners to hell, because they receive the exact wages of their sins. God is perfectly good and merciful when He sovereignly rescues His elect from that graveyard, because He paid their debt in full through the blood of His Son in Phase II (The Legal Phase).
Your theology demands that God must answer to human metrics of fairness. My theology stands with Paul: God is the Potter, we are the clay, and He has the absolute, undisputed right to make out of the same lump one vessel unto honor and another unto dishonor (Romans 9:21).
The fact that He saves any dead, ungodly enemy is proof of His staggering goodness. That He does not save everyone is proof of His absolute sovereignty. I will let God define His own goodness in Exodus 33:19. I suggest you do the same.
I yield the floor.

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