brakelite
Member
- Joined
- Jul 28, 2011
- Messages
- 873
Yes, New Zealand.
Denominations
- Thread starter ushalk
- Start date
Yes, New Zealand.
Common justifications/excuses for the existence of denominations:
Doubting God's provision: "There is no where else to go" - Church is not a place you go to it's the people, if you gather yourself with a few other believers and pray and fellowship together, this is church.
Need for man's organization - "Without a structure, organization, it would be chaos" - This is the error in believing that we need man's organization and man's structure in order to have Godly order. This implies we have no self control and will automatically spin out of control if we do not have the denominational structure around us. Really?
Exalting individual members of the Body above the rest - "My pastor is a great preacher" - that may be so, but what is everyone else doing? are you able to function in your spiritual gift and calling within your church.. what opportunities have you had in church to preach or prophesy? If you are a member of a living body then why aren't you moving? and why aren't you free to move?
Wrong view of God's Sovereignty - "God allows denominations" - God allows many things, even false religions and Christian cults and sects with many followers.. but this does not me an He approves.
Belief that it is in the Bible - "Denominations are in the bible" - where? Where is one place where God said He will build His denominations?
Social Reasons - "My friends are there" - but church is not to meet our social needs, it is primarily to meet God's will.
Humanitarian Reasons - "The denomination does many good things" ..and so do Buddhists, Muslims, Roman Catholics, Scientologists, and almost all religions do good things. - Matt 7:22 "Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?'"
Cultural/Family reasons - " it's where my parents and grand parents always went" Mark 7:8 "You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men"
Fear of losing God or being punished by God - man's organizations will make you feel guilty or make you believe that if you leave them you will lose some spiritual (or perhaps physical) benefit. But if you are a believer in Christ you cannot leave the church, you are always in it by being born of God. We can leave denominations but we cannot leave the church.
Doubting God's provision: "There is no where else to go" - Church is not a place you go to it's the people, if you gather yourself with a few other believers and pray and fellowship together, this is church.
Need for man's organization - "Without a structure, organization, it would be chaos" - This is the error in believing that we need man's organization and man's structure in order to have Godly order. This implies we have no self control and will automatically spin out of control if we do not have the denominational structure around us. Really?
Exalting individual members of the Body above the rest - "My pastor is a great preacher" - that may be so, but what is everyone else doing? are you able to function in your spiritual gift and calling within your church.. what opportunities have you had in church to preach or prophesy? If you are a member of a living body then why aren't you moving? and why aren't you free to move?
Wrong view of God's Sovereignty - "God allows denominations" - God allows many things, even false religions and Christian cults and sects with many followers.. but this does not me an He approves.
Belief that it is in the Bible - "Denominations are in the bible" - where? Where is one place where God said He will build His denominations?
Social Reasons - "My friends are there" - but church is not to meet our social needs, it is primarily to meet God's will.
Humanitarian Reasons - "The denomination does many good things" ..and so do Buddhists, Muslims, Roman Catholics, Scientologists, and almost all religions do good things. - Matt 7:22 "Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?'"
Cultural/Family reasons - " it's where my parents and grand parents always went" Mark 7:8 "You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men"
Fear of losing God or being punished by God - man's organizations will make you feel guilty or make you believe that if you leave them you will lose some spiritual (or perhaps physical) benefit. But if you are a believer in Christ you cannot leave the church, you are always in it by being born of God. We can leave denominations but we cannot leave the church.
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James1523: Enough...please! You have condemned, damned, compared denominations to homosexuals, and all but said you hated denominations. It's time to move on to a up lifting subject. You have insulted everyone who does not agree with you, show a kinder Christian and tell us of your love for brother's and sister's in the Lord. Become a builder up of christians not a person that tares down christiams. These posts are getting depressing, and they tare at those who are serving Christ in a different way than you.
Take time to give praise to the Lord, tell us how God is working in your neck of the woods. What interests do yoy have in the body of Christ. Like have you been on a mission trip, what things have you found that are effective in sharing Christ. Thank you for you your help in this request.
Take time to give praise to the Lord, tell us how God is working in your neck of the woods. What interests do yoy have in the body of Christ. Like have you been on a mission trip, what things have you found that are effective in sharing Christ. Thank you for you your help in this request.
God never appoints homosexual pastor in His church.. only denominations do it..and yes SOME not all, even MANY. And I have not even talked about the ones that call God Mother and that do not believe all parts of Bible to be true and that quote from Buddha and that are also part of Buddhist organizations and also are ministers in denomination. If we focus on these shortcomings we are not seeing the forest for the trees. The tree is individual problems the forest is denominations, period. Organized divisions contrary to God's original will and plan. Please quote me where I insult "everyone" who does not agree with me.. You know what harsh words Jesus Son of God said to Pharisees.. brood of vipers.. whitewashed walls.. hypocrites..dogs..I never used this to refer to you or anyone else. Just one question you should ask yourself.. then see if your living matches your belief:
1 Cor 1:13 Is Christ divided?...
If Christ is divided, we may live in a divided way, but if Christ is not divided.. what is our excuse ?
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lawrenceb
Member
- Joined
- Jan 6, 2012
- Messages
- 306
His delivery may not be perfect, but I would agree in general with James 1523 and his assessment of denominations.
The purpose in this post is two-fold: First, to show that it is the denial of the scripture's absolute authority, and not its difficulty of interpretation, that has resulted in the various divisions of Christ's congregation. The Gospel is simple, it’s just that men make it complicated.
Secondly, once an absolute standard has been abandoned, there is no logic for determining right from wrong other than human logic. Whenever a congregation abandons the absolute standard of Scripture, the outcome of all religious and moral decisions is left in the hands of men. And whether these decisions are rendered by clergy, scholars, theologians, courts, synods, or membership votes, if the decisions do not come from Scripture, then they must come from people of society, and sooner or later those decisions will inevitably be influenced by society.
The Holy Scripture is Sufficient
It is not reasonable to maintain that God continues to speak "through the Church" or through prophets or angels or in any way other than His Holy Scriptures. Why not? Consider what the scripture itself says in this matter:
Galatians 1:8–9 "But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed."
Now if the apostles wrote down what they taught, and these writings were collected and preserved in what we now call the scripture, and then if someone else (even an angel) adds something to what the apostles wrote, aren't they teaching something "other than" what the apostles taught? You see, anyone can claim to speak for God. Anyone can say that God speaks through the Church, or through the priests or through a board of elders or even through a preacher or individual members of a congregation. But in reality, one person's claims are as good as another’s, and one congregation's opinions are as good as another's. If, however, the scripture is God's unerring word, then the one who teaches from it does not teach his opinions, but teaches the truth of God. The entire context of Galatians 1:1-16 shows how denominations are of men, and are a different gospel, and how Paul stayed away from such.
Scripture condemns Denominations
Religious denominations actually go contrary to scripture, because they divide Christ (1 Corinthians 1:10-17; 3:3). A kingdom divided against itself cannot stand (Matthew 12:25, Mark 3:24-25, Luke 11:17). In scripture, God's people are called the Christ's assembly (note: the Greek word ekklesia is translated as 'church' in most bibles, but it actually refers to a group of people, and not to a physical building. Therefore, the literal translation is either 'assembly' or 'congregation'). For example, "the assembly of God" (Acts 20:28, 1 Corinthians 1:2; 10:32; 11:22; 15:9; 2 Corinthians 1:1, Galatians 1:13, 1 Timothy 3:5), or "the assembles of God" (1 Cor.11:16; 1 Thess.2:14; 2 Thess.1:4), or "the assembles of Christ" (RomRomans 16:16To call the assembly (church) of God by a different name, is to replace the name of God's assembly (church) with a man-made name. God considers "naming the name of Christ" to be iniquity (2 Timothy 2:19). All denominations create a man-made name to place on their man-made Church. Where is their authority for doing this?
1 Corinthians 1:10-13, "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you ; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you. Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?"
The above verse clearly condemns denominations. The reason for denominations is because those in the assembly (church) did not "speak the same thing", and that caused "divisions among them", and were no longer "joined together." Therefore, they formed different ‘Churches’ because of all the ‘contentions among them’. Just like how, in the above verses, those in the first century divided themselves and said they were of the assembly of "Chloe, Paul, Apollos, Cephas, etc.", denominations today divide themselves and say they are of the Church of the "Baptists, Catholics, Protestants, Lutherans, Evangelical, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Seventh day Adventists, Mormons, Orthodox, Quakers, Methodist, Pentecostal, Presbyterian, Calvinism, Arminianism, etc." But, as Paul asks above, "Is Christ divided?" If not, then how can these divided Churches be of Christ?
Another example of an attempt to ‘divide’ God into separate ‘Churches’ is at the transfiguration (Matthew 17:1-13, Mark 9:2-13, Luke 9:28-36). After Peter saw Moses, Elijah, and Jesus, he wanted to build a tabernacle (Church) for each one of them. But the Father himself descended in a cloud and said, "This is my beloved Son: hear him." In other words, we are to submit to Jesus only, and preach what he says. This attitude is reflected in the last recorded words of the mother of Jesus, Mary, when she said, "Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it" (John 2:5). We are not to build temples after other men, or upon other men’s teachings, but we are to do what Jesus told us to do.
Psalms 133:1, "Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!"
1 John 3:14, "We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death."
It is not possible to "dwell together in unity," or to "love the brethren" when denominations are too busy fighting with each other and disagreeing with each other.
Amos 3:3, "Can two walk together, except they be agreed?"
Other References
Denominationalism: "The system and ideology founded on the division of the religious population into numerous ecclesiastical bodies, each stressing particular values or traditions and each competing with the other in the same community under substantial conditions of freedom. Thus denominationalism has usually been associated with religious pluralism, voluntaryism, mutual respect and recognition, and neutrality on the part of the state." Westminster Dictionary of Church History (1971), pages 262-263.
As you can see, the very definition of ‘denominationalism’ goes against the very heart of scripture. If you take the five words in bold above, for example, and compare these words with what scripture says about them, it is all negative: Division (1 Corinthians 1:10-17; 3:3). Traditions (Matthew 15:3, 6 Mark 7:8, 9, 13. Colossians 2:8). Competing (2 Corinthians 10:12). Religious pluralism (Galatians 1:8, 9). Respect (James 2:9, Leviticus 19:15, Deuteronomy 10:17, 2 Chronicles 19:7).
"The Bible in no way envisages the organization of the church into denominations. It instead assumes the opposite, that all Christians, except those being disciplined, will be in full fellowship with all others. Any tendencies to the contrary were roundly denounced (1 Cor.1:10-13). Paul could write a letter to the Christians meeting in various places in Rome or Galatian with every assurance that all would receive its message. Today, for any city or country, he would have to place the letter as an advertisement in the secular media and hope." Elwell’s Evangelistic Dictionary of Theology, (1984), page 310.
"Articles, Creeds, and Confessions of Faith alike fail to give us this full knowledge of God which is so essential to our faith and walk. They are only man’s impressions, inferences, and conclusions drawn from Scripture; and have themselves to be judged by Scripture. Whatever of truth there may be in them, or however useful, they can never take the place of the Word of God. Only in the "person" of the Living Word, and in the pages of the written Word, can we get to know God." E.W. Bullinger, The Knowledge of God, (1920), page 3.
"We do not use any non-scriptural words or expressions. These are the things which divide the members of the One Body, instead of uniting them. These introduce the seeds of strife and contention. These have been the causes of controversies and martyrdom’s". E.W.Bullinger, The Knowledge of God, (1920), page 3.
On the 26th of May, 1786, James Madison, who subsequently became president of the United States, said in a sermon he delivered before the Protestant Episcopal Church in the State of Virginia, "I earnestly recommend to our Christians to reject every system as the fallible production of human contrivance, which shall dictate the articles of faith; and adopt the Gospel alone as their guide. Those Christian societies will ever be found to have formed their union upon principles, the wisest and the best, which makes the scriptures alone, and not human articles, a confession of belief, the sole rule of faith and conduct." W.D. Frazie "Reminiscences and Sermons"(1896. page 63).
James Madison also said, "We have staked the whole future of the American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future...upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves, according to the Ten Commandments of God."
Heresy literally means Denominations
In the New Testament, the English word "heresy" is from an untranslated Greek word (word #139). It's used nine times; four times it is left untranslated, but the other five times it is translated. This word is translated as "sect" (i.e., denomination) in AActs 5:17; 15:5; 24:5 26:5nd 28:22. However, it is left untranslated in Acts 24:14, 1 Corinthians 11:19, Galatians 5:20 and 2 Peter 2:1. Why would it be left untranslated? Well, let's see what some of these verses would say if it was translated.
1 Corinthians 11:18-19, "For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. For there must be also heresies [sects, denominations] among you..."
Because it shows that denominations cause divisions! What else does scripture say about sects?
Galatians 5:19-21, "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies (sects, denominations), Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God."
Denominations are defined as a work of the flesh! We are told that they who partake of these things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. Why not? Because denominations cause divisions, and Christ is not divided. Therefore, denominations are not of Christ!
2 Peter 2:1, "But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies (sects, denominations), even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction."
This passage says false prophets and false teachers will bring in denominations, and they will deny the Lord. Denominations do deny the Lord by dividing the Lord.
Conclusion
When you start getting into re-definitions and re-statements of the Truth, you’re no longer in the Truth, you’re an image of the Truth. A sect or denomination is not the real thing, it is not the Truth; it is only an interpretation of the Truth, it is only a perception of the Truth. The works of men (creeds, confessions, or articles of faith) quicken no one and save no souls.
John 6:63, "It is the spirit [*not creeds, confessions, or articles of faith] that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."
Hosea 8:6, "…the workman made it [*creeds, confessions, or articles of faith]; therefore it is not God:"
Isaiah 17:7-8, "At that day shall a man look to his Maker, and his eyes shall have respect to the Holy One of Israel. And he shall not look to the altars, the work of his hands, neither shall respect that which his fingers have made [*creeds, confessions, or articles of faith]..."
When people say they are a "New Testament Church", they separate themselves, because they’re saying they popped up at some point 2,000 years ago, whereas God's "church" is from the beginning (Gen.1:1, Psalms 119:160, Pro.8:23, Isa.40:21; 41:4,26; 46:10; 48:5, Jer.17:12, Mark 10:6, Acts 15:18, Col.1:18, 1 John 2:7; 3:11; 2 John 1:5, 6 Rev.21:6; 22:13). The "New Covenant Church," for example, is an imperfect church like all other denominations, because it is made up of imperfect people.
The purpose in this post is two-fold: First, to show that it is the denial of the scripture's absolute authority, and not its difficulty of interpretation, that has resulted in the various divisions of Christ's congregation. The Gospel is simple, it’s just that men make it complicated.
Secondly, once an absolute standard has been abandoned, there is no logic for determining right from wrong other than human logic. Whenever a congregation abandons the absolute standard of Scripture, the outcome of all religious and moral decisions is left in the hands of men. And whether these decisions are rendered by clergy, scholars, theologians, courts, synods, or membership votes, if the decisions do not come from Scripture, then they must come from people of society, and sooner or later those decisions will inevitably be influenced by society.
The Holy Scripture is Sufficient
It is not reasonable to maintain that God continues to speak "through the Church" or through prophets or angels or in any way other than His Holy Scriptures. Why not? Consider what the scripture itself says in this matter:
Galatians 1:8–9 "But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed."
Now if the apostles wrote down what they taught, and these writings were collected and preserved in what we now call the scripture, and then if someone else (even an angel) adds something to what the apostles wrote, aren't they teaching something "other than" what the apostles taught? You see, anyone can claim to speak for God. Anyone can say that God speaks through the Church, or through the priests or through a board of elders or even through a preacher or individual members of a congregation. But in reality, one person's claims are as good as another’s, and one congregation's opinions are as good as another's. If, however, the scripture is God's unerring word, then the one who teaches from it does not teach his opinions, but teaches the truth of God. The entire context of Galatians 1:1-16 shows how denominations are of men, and are a different gospel, and how Paul stayed away from such.
Scripture condemns Denominations
Religious denominations actually go contrary to scripture, because they divide Christ (1 Corinthians 1:10-17; 3:3). A kingdom divided against itself cannot stand (Matthew 12:25, Mark 3:24-25, Luke 11:17). In scripture, God's people are called the Christ's assembly (note: the Greek word ekklesia is translated as 'church' in most bibles, but it actually refers to a group of people, and not to a physical building. Therefore, the literal translation is either 'assembly' or 'congregation'). For example, "the assembly of God" (Acts 20:28, 1 Corinthians 1:2; 10:32; 11:22; 15:9; 2 Corinthians 1:1, Galatians 1:13, 1 Timothy 3:5), or "the assembles of God" (1 Cor.11:16; 1 Thess.2:14; 2 Thess.1:4), or "the assembles of Christ" (RomRomans 16:16To call the assembly (church) of God by a different name, is to replace the name of God's assembly (church) with a man-made name. God considers "naming the name of Christ" to be iniquity (2 Timothy 2:19). All denominations create a man-made name to place on their man-made Church. Where is their authority for doing this?
1 Corinthians 1:10-13, "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you ; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you. Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?"
The above verse clearly condemns denominations. The reason for denominations is because those in the assembly (church) did not "speak the same thing", and that caused "divisions among them", and were no longer "joined together." Therefore, they formed different ‘Churches’ because of all the ‘contentions among them’. Just like how, in the above verses, those in the first century divided themselves and said they were of the assembly of "Chloe, Paul, Apollos, Cephas, etc.", denominations today divide themselves and say they are of the Church of the "Baptists, Catholics, Protestants, Lutherans, Evangelical, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Seventh day Adventists, Mormons, Orthodox, Quakers, Methodist, Pentecostal, Presbyterian, Calvinism, Arminianism, etc." But, as Paul asks above, "Is Christ divided?" If not, then how can these divided Churches be of Christ?
Another example of an attempt to ‘divide’ God into separate ‘Churches’ is at the transfiguration (Matthew 17:1-13, Mark 9:2-13, Luke 9:28-36). After Peter saw Moses, Elijah, and Jesus, he wanted to build a tabernacle (Church) for each one of them. But the Father himself descended in a cloud and said, "This is my beloved Son: hear him." In other words, we are to submit to Jesus only, and preach what he says. This attitude is reflected in the last recorded words of the mother of Jesus, Mary, when she said, "Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it" (John 2:5). We are not to build temples after other men, or upon other men’s teachings, but we are to do what Jesus told us to do.
Psalms 133:1, "Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!"
1 John 3:14, "We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death."
It is not possible to "dwell together in unity," or to "love the brethren" when denominations are too busy fighting with each other and disagreeing with each other.
Amos 3:3, "Can two walk together, except they be agreed?"
Other References
Denominationalism: "The system and ideology founded on the division of the religious population into numerous ecclesiastical bodies, each stressing particular values or traditions and each competing with the other in the same community under substantial conditions of freedom. Thus denominationalism has usually been associated with religious pluralism, voluntaryism, mutual respect and recognition, and neutrality on the part of the state." Westminster Dictionary of Church History (1971), pages 262-263.
As you can see, the very definition of ‘denominationalism’ goes against the very heart of scripture. If you take the five words in bold above, for example, and compare these words with what scripture says about them, it is all negative: Division (1 Corinthians 1:10-17; 3:3). Traditions (Matthew 15:3, 6 Mark 7:8, 9, 13. Colossians 2:8). Competing (2 Corinthians 10:12). Religious pluralism (Galatians 1:8, 9). Respect (James 2:9, Leviticus 19:15, Deuteronomy 10:17, 2 Chronicles 19:7).
"The Bible in no way envisages the organization of the church into denominations. It instead assumes the opposite, that all Christians, except those being disciplined, will be in full fellowship with all others. Any tendencies to the contrary were roundly denounced (1 Cor.1:10-13). Paul could write a letter to the Christians meeting in various places in Rome or Galatian with every assurance that all would receive its message. Today, for any city or country, he would have to place the letter as an advertisement in the secular media and hope." Elwell’s Evangelistic Dictionary of Theology, (1984), page 310.
"Articles, Creeds, and Confessions of Faith alike fail to give us this full knowledge of God which is so essential to our faith and walk. They are only man’s impressions, inferences, and conclusions drawn from Scripture; and have themselves to be judged by Scripture. Whatever of truth there may be in them, or however useful, they can never take the place of the Word of God. Only in the "person" of the Living Word, and in the pages of the written Word, can we get to know God." E.W. Bullinger, The Knowledge of God, (1920), page 3.
"We do not use any non-scriptural words or expressions. These are the things which divide the members of the One Body, instead of uniting them. These introduce the seeds of strife and contention. These have been the causes of controversies and martyrdom’s". E.W.Bullinger, The Knowledge of God, (1920), page 3.
On the 26th of May, 1786, James Madison, who subsequently became president of the United States, said in a sermon he delivered before the Protestant Episcopal Church in the State of Virginia, "I earnestly recommend to our Christians to reject every system as the fallible production of human contrivance, which shall dictate the articles of faith; and adopt the Gospel alone as their guide. Those Christian societies will ever be found to have formed their union upon principles, the wisest and the best, which makes the scriptures alone, and not human articles, a confession of belief, the sole rule of faith and conduct." W.D. Frazie "Reminiscences and Sermons"(1896. page 63).
James Madison also said, "We have staked the whole future of the American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future...upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves, according to the Ten Commandments of God."
Heresy literally means Denominations
In the New Testament, the English word "heresy" is from an untranslated Greek word (word #139). It's used nine times; four times it is left untranslated, but the other five times it is translated. This word is translated as "sect" (i.e., denomination) in AActs 5:17; 15:5; 24:5 26:5nd 28:22. However, it is left untranslated in Acts 24:14, 1 Corinthians 11:19, Galatians 5:20 and 2 Peter 2:1. Why would it be left untranslated? Well, let's see what some of these verses would say if it was translated.
1 Corinthians 11:18-19, "For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. For there must be also heresies [sects, denominations] among you..."
Because it shows that denominations cause divisions! What else does scripture say about sects?
Galatians 5:19-21, "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies (sects, denominations), Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God."
Denominations are defined as a work of the flesh! We are told that they who partake of these things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. Why not? Because denominations cause divisions, and Christ is not divided. Therefore, denominations are not of Christ!
2 Peter 2:1, "But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies (sects, denominations), even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction."
This passage says false prophets and false teachers will bring in denominations, and they will deny the Lord. Denominations do deny the Lord by dividing the Lord.
Conclusion
When you start getting into re-definitions and re-statements of the Truth, you’re no longer in the Truth, you’re an image of the Truth. A sect or denomination is not the real thing, it is not the Truth; it is only an interpretation of the Truth, it is only a perception of the Truth. The works of men (creeds, confessions, or articles of faith) quicken no one and save no souls.
John 6:63, "It is the spirit [*not creeds, confessions, or articles of faith] that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."
Hosea 8:6, "…the workman made it [*creeds, confessions, or articles of faith]; therefore it is not God:"
Isaiah 17:7-8, "At that day shall a man look to his Maker, and his eyes shall have respect to the Holy One of Israel. And he shall not look to the altars, the work of his hands, neither shall respect that which his fingers have made [*creeds, confessions, or articles of faith]..."
When people say they are a "New Testament Church", they separate themselves, because they’re saying they popped up at some point 2,000 years ago, whereas God's "church" is from the beginning (Gen.1:1, Psalms 119:160, Pro.8:23, Isa.40:21; 41:4,26; 46:10; 48:5, Jer.17:12, Mark 10:6, Acts 15:18, Col.1:18, 1 John 2:7; 3:11; 2 John 1:5, 6 Rev.21:6; 22:13). The "New Covenant Church," for example, is an imperfect church like all other denominations, because it is made up of imperfect people.
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Thank you lawrenceb for this inspiring message.
This is true. A non-denominational church is itself a denomination. But the church is not denomination and is not non-denomination. It is just church. No church apart from Christ can be perfect. Even there can be a denomination which is more "perfect", more good works, more spiritual, less sin, more perfect doctrine, than a genuine church. But I believe God does not necessarily seek perfect churches. I believe God would rather an imperfect church than a perfect denomination. Jesus rather dwelt with imperfect sinners outside of the religious institutions of the time. Because He can work with those not bound by religious traditions and man's organization, but He cannot work easily with those ,like Pharisees, already bound by human tradition and concept.
This is true. A non-denominational church is itself a denomination. But the church is not denomination and is not non-denomination. It is just church. No church apart from Christ can be perfect. Even there can be a denomination which is more "perfect", more good works, more spiritual, less sin, more perfect doctrine, than a genuine church. But I believe God does not necessarily seek perfect churches. I believe God would rather an imperfect church than a perfect denomination. Jesus rather dwelt with imperfect sinners outside of the religious institutions of the time. Because He can work with those not bound by religious traditions and man's organization, but He cannot work easily with those ,like Pharisees, already bound by human tradition and concept.
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farout please stop judging/accusing/exaggerating about others who disagree with you about denominations. If I am personally insulted anyone in my posts then please quote me. But your posts seem to have a personal agenda rather than posting about the topic at hand.
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The Holy Scriptures and Denominations
We would not have a single agreed Canon/ Holy Scriptures today, if denominations existed in the early church.
Consider.. Paul's letters to the Corinthians, Galatians, and others.. were written not just to those churches individually, but what Paul wrote to one church, he meant for all. That is why the early Christians could gather all of Paul's writings to various different churches into one book. Today when we read the Bible we are not reading a Bible created by various denominations and sects, we are reading the inspired messages for the one Body of Christ which transcends time and space. Paul did not write one letter to Presbyterians and another letter to Catholics.. he wrote letter to each city-church.. identified by city location not by creed, practice or other man's name.
But what is the situation today? If Roman Catholic Pope writes inspired message, it is just for Catholics.. if Anglican Archbishop writes inspired message.. it is just for Anglican.. if AOG President has inspired message.. it just for AOG churches. If this was the situation in the early church.. we would not have a common Canon we would have a Catholic Canon , an Anglican Canon, an AOG Canon, a Presbyterian Canon.
The one Canon, the one Holy Scriptures that all Christian denominations use.. is a testimony against division and a testimony for oneness and unity.
We would not have a single agreed Canon/ Holy Scriptures today, if denominations existed in the early church.
Consider.. Paul's letters to the Corinthians, Galatians, and others.. were written not just to those churches individually, but what Paul wrote to one church, he meant for all. That is why the early Christians could gather all of Paul's writings to various different churches into one book. Today when we read the Bible we are not reading a Bible created by various denominations and sects, we are reading the inspired messages for the one Body of Christ which transcends time and space. Paul did not write one letter to Presbyterians and another letter to Catholics.. he wrote letter to each city-church.. identified by city location not by creed, practice or other man's name.
But what is the situation today? If Roman Catholic Pope writes inspired message, it is just for Catholics.. if Anglican Archbishop writes inspired message.. it is just for Anglican.. if AOG President has inspired message.. it just for AOG churches. If this was the situation in the early church.. we would not have a common Canon we would have a Catholic Canon , an Anglican Canon, an AOG Canon, a Presbyterian Canon.
The one Canon, the one Holy Scriptures that all Christian denominations use.. is a testimony against division and a testimony for oneness and unity.
Rev T.S.Perkins
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The only label I claim is a saved man ..Christ was non denom and the only reason they called John the Baptist was because that's what he did and not what he was...all lines should be dropped and Christ should be the pastor to us all ..Rev
Hekuran
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This does not fit with my experience. I have been a member of both denominational and non-denominational churches. Currently, I worship in one denomination, am employed part of the week working with three other denominations. For the rest of the week I work with churches and church leaders of a variety of churches denominational and non-denominational.
From my conversations church leaders of all kinds are keen to work together and see that as far more important than the minor differences between them. Also denominational and non-denominational churches seem to struggle with many of the same issues and experience the same joys.
In my experience, churches take very seriously the statements of the leaders of other churches. Providing a united witness is hugely important. Methodists will adopt, support and build on the work of Anglicans very readily.
Just totted up the number of denominations or other bodies I've been involved with in one way or another this week - eight. And everybody is willing to work with others. Many are in covenants where a group of churches will promise to each other that they will do nothing separately that they can do more effectively together. That translates into youth groups being supported by teams from several churches etc.
I have some experience of the church worldwide, and I'd say that the appetite for working together is similar in most countries I've visited.
Peace
I also have experience of Ecumenism. Ecumenism is better than no ecumenism, but still falls short of God's standard. This is a "shaking hands over the fence". The question has to be asked.. if there are only minor differences between denominations, why they still exist. On the personal level.. many people from different denomination can work and worship together. But on the organizational level, they still retain their individual identity, which creates walls of separation between various believers due to mans organizational structure. On the organizational level, ecumenism can result in a beast with many heads (Revelation 13:1-10). On the personal level, a taste for true Christian unity can be had, but I believe not to the same degree as those who leave denominational differences altogether. That is my experience anyway, and all the best with your serving God whether in or out of denomination
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i see this took a few direct turns that voice a few of the problems with denominations. it is true that some of the denoms. have allowed homosexual pastors. the problem with this is they are still living in the abomination of homosexuality. dennis jenigan does a huge ministry and writes godly music. he used to be a homosexual. now he has tuly repented and turned from it. that is a gody thing for him to minister. itis not a good thing for people still living in that sin to be n any ministry.
the other problem is that all denominations believe and state that they are the only true church. this is actually a lie with in itself. a dangerous manipulation to keep people stuck in the church name and building.
the other problem is that all denominations believe and state that they are the only true church. this is actually a lie with in itself. a dangerous manipulation to keep people stuck in the church name and building.
What you say has some very serious truths for some denominations. I left one large Baptist denomination because the Executive Minister willingly took into the state denomination a number of churches that had homosexual pastors, that were located inCalifornia. That's all it took for me to see this was TOTALLY against Scripture, I resigned.
But after serving with the Conserative Baptist denomination, and the Southern Bpatist denomination I saw nothing about these denominations were the only or best church. That's not to say there are some churches that believe they are the one and only true church. However I have seen first hand two non-denominational churches that stated that any denominational church was not scriptural.
Perhaps the better way is to make 100% sure the church we join is solidly based on Scripture. I always ask for their constitution and if a statement of faith in not within, I ask for that too. I am not unwilling to belong to a non-denominational church, but in the area we live the Non-denominational churches (two) are Charasmatic. I think we should go to a church that most closely is in line with Scripture as we believe.
With so many people so attached to a church or denomination that they grew up with, that can blind a person to the real truth, especially so if the church was a cult. Then it is very difficult to show people the real truth of Jesus Christ. Blessings.
Not true. All denominations don't claim that they are only true church.
Some, not all, denomination believe and state they are the only true church. But.. I think all denominations believe they are the most "correct" church, in doctrine, structure or practice...otherwise they would not be upholding their denomination. The thing is... every believer is in the "only true church".. regardless of what denomination they belong to. So if someone says to me "my church is the only true church".. I would not argue, I would say "amen, mine is too". If someone was to say "my denomination is the only correct denomination".. well I'd have to evaluate that in light of Scripture.
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take a denomintion pastor to his office and have a one on one with them and see how true your statement is. i do agree that not all pastors are like that and i should not have wrritten that they way that i did. but most do think like that and have been taught that. now i do admit that over the last few years that has been not so much the case and i think it is because people such as myself have started voicing out the falseness in such things.
i think the biggest problem here is that people have been taught that church is brick amd mortar with a name on it, rather than the fact that the true church is the people that have accepted christ as their lord and saviour and serve him. true salvation has nothing to do with buildings and denominations, it is faith in christ and him alone. Acts 4:12"there is no other name under the heavens in shich we are saved by."
A good resource for those of us who have taken a stand against denominationalism in God's church in light of the truth of Scripture is the book
Pagan Christianity: Exploring the roots of our church practices, by Frank Viola & George Barna.
Excerpts:
"As you read through the following pages, you may be surprised to discover that a great deal of what we Christians do for Sunday morning church did not come from Jesus Christ, the apostles, or the Scriptures. Nor did it come from Judaism. After the Romans destroyed Jerusalem in AD 70, Judaic Christianity waned in numbers and power. Gentile Christianity dominated, and the new faith began to absorb Greco-Roman philosophy and ritual. Judaic Christianity survived for five centuries in the little group of Syriac Christians called Ebionim, but their influence was not very widespread. According to Shirley J. Case, “Not only was the social environment of the Christian movement largely Gentile well before the end of the first century, but it had severed almost any earlier bonds of social contact with the Jewish Christians of Palestine. … By the year 100, Christianity is mainly a Gentile religious movement … living together in a common Gentile social environment.”
"Strikingly, much of what we do for “church” was lifted directly out of pagan culture in the post-apostolic period. (Legend tells us the last surviving apostle, John, died around AD 100.) According to Paul F. Bradshaw, fourth-century Christianity “absorbed and Christianized pagan religious ideas and practices, seeing itself as the fulfillment to which earlier religions had dimly pointed.” While today we often use the word pagan to describe those who claim no religion whatsoever, to the early Christians, pagans were those polytheists who followed the gods of the Roman Empire. Paganism dominated the Roman Empire until the fourth century, and many of its elements were absorbed by Christians in the first half of the first millennium, particularly during the Constantinian and early post-Constantinian eras (324 to 600). Two other significant periods from which many of our current church practices originate were the Reformation era (sixteenth century) and the Revivalist era (eighteenth and nineteenth centuries)."
"if you happen to be one of those people who gathers with other Christians outside the pale of institutional Christianity, you will discover afresh that not only is Scripture on your side—but history stands with you as well."
Pagan Christianity: Exploring the roots of our church practices, by Frank Viola & George Barna.
Excerpts:
"As you read through the following pages, you may be surprised to discover that a great deal of what we Christians do for Sunday morning church did not come from Jesus Christ, the apostles, or the Scriptures. Nor did it come from Judaism. After the Romans destroyed Jerusalem in AD 70, Judaic Christianity waned in numbers and power. Gentile Christianity dominated, and the new faith began to absorb Greco-Roman philosophy and ritual. Judaic Christianity survived for five centuries in the little group of Syriac Christians called Ebionim, but their influence was not very widespread. According to Shirley J. Case, “Not only was the social environment of the Christian movement largely Gentile well before the end of the first century, but it had severed almost any earlier bonds of social contact with the Jewish Christians of Palestine. … By the year 100, Christianity is mainly a Gentile religious movement … living together in a common Gentile social environment.”
"Strikingly, much of what we do for “church” was lifted directly out of pagan culture in the post-apostolic period. (Legend tells us the last surviving apostle, John, died around AD 100.) According to Paul F. Bradshaw, fourth-century Christianity “absorbed and Christianized pagan religious ideas and practices, seeing itself as the fulfillment to which earlier religions had dimly pointed.” While today we often use the word pagan to describe those who claim no religion whatsoever, to the early Christians, pagans were those polytheists who followed the gods of the Roman Empire. Paganism dominated the Roman Empire until the fourth century, and many of its elements were absorbed by Christians in the first half of the first millennium, particularly during the Constantinian and early post-Constantinian eras (324 to 600). Two other significant periods from which many of our current church practices originate were the Reformation era (sixteenth century) and the Revivalist era (eighteenth and nineteenth centuries)."
"if you happen to be one of those people who gathers with other Christians outside the pale of institutional Christianity, you will discover afresh that not only is Scripture on your side—but history stands with you as well."
