Discussion about the Atoning Death of Christ

[beloved57]

Greetings,



In what you are saying/writing here, are the many made righteous the same many men who were made sinners?
without any prior understanding, you appear to be suggesting that only some of the whole were made sinners... almost so that they would be made righteous again.
That is the way someone who has no understanding of the Bible and the will of God might read it.

It is almost as if you are trying to say that not all were/are/will be sinners through Adam's disobedience and not all can be made righteous through Christ's obedience.
So, the others? Or don't they matter to Christ or God?


Bless you ....><>

Adam represented all men in him, Christ represented all men in Him.

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings,

Adam represented all men in him, Christ represented all men in Him.

Does that mean that in Adam all men were represented and in Christ all men were represented?


Bless you ....><>

 

[beloved57]

Greetings,



Does that mean that in Adam all men were represented and in Christ all men were represented?


Bless you ....><>

It means what it says, all the men adam represented when he disobeyed they were made sinners, and all the men Christ represented when He obeyed are made righteous. Thats as far as I take it since thats as far as this scripture reveals.

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings again,

all the men adam represented when he disobeyed they were made sinners

So that implies or leaves open to interpretation that "the men adam represented" didn't necessarily encompass all men, from Adam onwards.
Is that possible? Strange. I can't get my head around that one. Can you?


Bless you ....><>

 

[beloved57]

Greetings again,



So that implies or leaves open to interpretation that "the men adam represented" didn't necessarily encompass all men, from Adam onwards.
Is that possible? Strange. I can't get my head around that one. Can you?


Bless you ....><>

I believe whats important here is that the many which Christ represented, by His representative obedience alone, they are made righteous. Do you agree with that ? Rom 5:19

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings beloved57,

I am a bit puzzled as to why you avoid my questions.

Regarding Romans 5:19 I am very happy at present with it as it follows directly after Romans 5:18
It's truly beautiful, don't you think?

Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.


Bless you ....><>

 

[beloved57]

Greetings beloved57,

I am a bit puzzled as to why you avoid my questions.

Regarding Romans 5:19 I am very happy at present with it as it follows directly after Romans 5:18
It's truly beautiful, don't you think?

Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.


Bless you ....><>

I answered your question. However you evade discussion on Rom 5:19. Can i ask why ?

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

The word, 'automatic' is pretty good in today's use of the English language because it sums up that the Death of the Lamb was sufficient,

Blessings @Br. Bear
The reason I had stated that the word automatic or automatically was a poor choice of wording is simply because in this day and hour there are false doctrines being pushed that claim we as born again Christians do nothing and all of God's Promises just automatically apply or happen.

This is false and leaves a believer in a bad situation.

Even becoming born again believing is not enough. Even the demons believe there is a God.
We must Ask and Confess. Just believing Jesus died and already made the way to the Father does us nothing.

I am not arguing any point, just simply wanted you to know why I had said what I did.

Many people are under the wrong impression about Grace and what Jesus already did on the Cross for us and insist they never have to do anything else ever and can do as they please and still be in right standing with the Father. That is totally opposed to Scripture.

Any way have a very Blessed day and enjoy your family.
Blessings
W4F

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

Yes Rom 5:19 is 100 % True !

You said Yes, so likewise its automatic that many are made righteous by one mans obedience

It's not automatically done.
One must believe and ask and Confess then it's carried out.

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

I stated my point. If one believes that Christ died for all humans without exception, and consequently all human beings without exception are saved, then its obvious this one doesnt believe in the saving death of Christ, which is unbelief.

See the death of Christ saves, His Blood actually saved them He shed it for.

So heres the deal.

One either believes Christ died for all without exception, and His Blood didnt actually save anyone but only made saving possible, which is unbelief in the blood

or secondly one believes that Christ died for all without exception and His Blood saved all without exception, no one is lost, which is universalism and thats false because many shall be lost.

or thirdly, one believes that Christ died only for all His Sheep, Gods Elect without exception of ethnicity, and all them shall be saved, thats Faith in the Blood of Christ, that it saved all for whom it was shed. That by the way is my position !

Unbelief is anything Apposed to the Written Word of God.

We either believe what is written or we dont.

Yes Christ did His part on the Cross and nothing can change this.

We either believe or we dont.

If we believe then we will follow through with what is Written and
Ask God to Forgive us
Ask Him to be Lord of our Life

Romans 10:9
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

 

[beloved57]

Unbelief is anything Apposed to the Written Word of God.

We either believe what is written or we dont.

Yes Christ did His part on the Cross and nothing can change this.

We either believe or we dont.

If we believe then we will follow through with what is Written and
Ask God to Forgive us
Ask Him to be Lord of our Life

Romans 10:9
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Do you believe Rom 5:19 ? Thats what Im discussing right now. Please read my posts about it. Thanks

 

[beloved57]

You said Yes, so likewise its automatic that many are made righteous by one mans obedience

It's not automatically done.
One must believe and ask and Confess then it's carried out.

Thats not in Rom 5:19. The many are made righteous by the Obedience of One !

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

Do you believe Rom 5:19 ? Thats what Im discussing right now. Please read my posts about it. Thanks

↑


Post # 2 written by @Sue J Love
Not sure your question, but he died for everyone, but not all are saved.

Your reply post #3

If you believe He died for everyone but everyone isn't saved, its safe to say that you don't believe that Christ shed blood alone for someone is enough to save them.

Now then @beloved57
You totally added words to her post.
She is totally Correct in her Response.

Now you are taking Romans 5:19 and trying to build a doctrine solely on one little portion of scripture which will always end in error.

Why?
Have a very Blessed day
W4F

 

[beloved57]

↑


Post # 2 written by @Sue J Love
Not sure your question, but he died for everyone, but not all are saved.

Your reply post #3

If you believe He died for everyone but everyone isn't saved, its safe to say that you don't believe that Christ shed blood alone for someone is enough to save them.

Now then @beloved57
You totally added words to her post.
She is totally Correct in her Response.

Now you are taking Romans 5:19 and trying to build a doctrine solely on one little portion of scripture which will always end in error.

Why?
Have a very Blessed day
W4F

Perhaps you need to go back and read my previous comments on Rom 5:19. That is what i have been discussing and its Gods Word.

 

[amadeus2]

Well being made righteous here is the direct result of the Obedience of one, just as being made a sinner was the direct result of the disobedience of one. So was it automatic that many were made sinners by one man disobedience ? Yes, so likewise its automatic that many are made righteous by one mans obedience! So your statement that its not a automatic thing appears to be contrary to the stated truth of Rom 5:19

The verse reads:

"For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous." Rom 5:19


And so then many shall be made righteous, but it does not say, all. The ones who are to be made righteous are those who walk through the Door that Jesus opened according God's will. What is this Door that Jesus has opened? Is it not the same as the Way of the Tree of Life?

"So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life." Gen 3:24

Is not Jesus the Way?

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." John 14:6

What is this Tree of Life to which He is the Way?

"And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:" Gen 3:22

"She is a tree of life to them that lay hold upon her: and happy is every one that retaineth her." Prov 3:18 [antecedent for the pronoun, "She" is "wisdom" found in verse 13 of the same chapter

"The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life..." Prov 11:30

"A wholesome tongue is a tree of life: but perverseness therein is a breach in the spirit." Prov 15:4


What is the "flaming sword" that keeps the "way"? The Door is open because Jesus paid the price. We see the opening here:

"And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom." Mark 15:38

But what is the "flaming sword" and how do we get past it?

"And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:" Eph 6:17

The sword of the Spirit is Jesus. And "flame" is...?

"For our God is a consuming fire." Heb 12:29

Who can get through the consuming fire of the sword? Not just anyone...

Jesus paid the price so that entrance is possible, but what must a person do to enter in without being cut to pieces or burnt to a crisp? If you do not enter in you cannot partake of the Tree of Life and if you do not you cannot live for ever.

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God." Rev 2:7

"Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city." Rev 22:14

It looks to me as if a person must overcome and do his commandments.

God did not leave us helpless or did He?

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

Perhaps you need to go back and read my previous comments on Rom 5:19. That is what i have been discussing and its Gods Word.

Yes Romans 5:19 is very much a part of God's Most Holy Written Word.
However your discussion has been off from post #3.

Again will you explain why you told @Sue J Love what you did in post #3

 

[beloved57]

↑


Post # 2 written by @Sue J Love
Not sure your question, but he died for everyone, but not all are saved.

Your reply post #3

If you believe He died for everyone but everyone isn't saved, its safe to say that you don't believe that Christ shed blood alone for someone is enough to save them.

Now then @beloved57
You totally added words to her post.
She is totally Correct in her Response.

Now you are taking Romans 5:19 and trying to build a doctrine solely on one little portion of scripture which will always end in error.

Why?
Have a very Blessed day
W4F

Not interested. Let me know when you want to discuss the point I made with Rom 5:19

 

[beloved57]

Yes Romans 5:19 is very much a part of God's Most Holy Written Word.
However your discussion has been off from post #3.

Again will you explain why you told @Sue J Love what you did in post #3

Im discussing Rom 5:19. Did you read my comments ? Anything I have stated to any poster its directly related to my understanding of Rom 5:19 ! Those Christ died for, the many shall be made righteous. Is that correct according to Rom 5:19 ?

 

[beloved57]

The verse reads:

"For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous." Rom 5:19


And so then many shall be made righteous, but it does not say, all. The ones who are to be made righteous are those who walk through the Door that Jesus opened according God's will. What is this Door that Jesus has opened? Is it not the same as the Way of the Tree of Life?

"So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life." Gen 3:24

Is not Jesus the Way?

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." John 14:6

What is this Tree of Life to which He is the Way?

"And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:" Gen 3:22

"She is a tree of life to them that lay hold upon her: and happy is every one that retaineth her." Prov 3:18 [antecedent for the pronoun, "She" is "wisdom" found in verse 13 of the same chapter

"The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life..." Prov 11:30

"A wholesome tongue is a tree of life: but perverseness therein is a breach in the spirit." Prov 15:4


What is the "flaming sword" that keeps the "way"? The Door is open because Jesus paid the price. We see the opening here:

"And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom." Mark 15:38

But what is the "flaming sword" and how do we get past it?

"And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:" Eph 6:17

The sword of the Spirit is Jesus. And "flame" is...?

"For our God is a consuming fire." Heb 12:29

Who can get through the consuming fire of the sword? Not just anyone...

Jesus paid the price so that entrance is possible, but what must a person do to enter in without being cut to pieces or burnt to a crisp? If you do not enter in you cannot partake of the Tree of Life and if you do not you cannot live for ever.

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God." Rev 2:7

"Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city." Rev 22:14

It looks to me as if a person must overcome and do his commandments.

God did not leave us helpless or did He?

Sorry, this is a rabbit trail. According to Rom 5:19 how are the many made righteous ?

 

[amadeus2]

Im discussing Rom 5:19. Did you read my comments ? Anything I have stated to any poster its directly related to my understanding of Rom 5:19 ! Those Christ died for, the many shall be made righteous. Is that correct according to Rom 5:19 ?

Have you even read my post #115 which addresses the verse you are so strongly emphasizing while ignoring the expressed viewpoint of others here?