Do the Protesters even know what they are Protesting ( Minneapolis).

[Christ4Ever]

Thanks for this reply Brother Nick, I know that we disagree on the fact, whether or not. as Christians, we should go along with the wishes of the majority or laws of the Country, even if they go against the teachings of Christ. I am not so much concerned with the Legality of an action, but whether it contravenes Christs teaching , which i feel override any legal considerations.

There in is the problem between us. You don't see the laws put in place as being required for us to follow when it in truth doesn't countermand the laws of God, Jesus. Jesus did not break the law of the day. He was able to show according to Scripture when they accused him of it, that it was allowed. You have yet not been able to show that, at least to me.

For myself, the Sovereignty of Christs teachings come before any man made law or tradition. And when Christ said to his "Sheep" one of the reasons why they were chosen for Salvation was, " I was a Stranger and you took me in,......for when you do this to the least of these my Brethren you have done it to me", then thats how , as a follower of Christ, i must try to live my life.

The teachings are not sovereign, Jesus Christ is, because He is God. What you said there is exactly what the Pharisee's & Sadducees did with the very law that was given to them by God. They took teachings/law to mean one thing, when the intent of God was something else entirely. They focused on the object and not the Source which is Who it was intended to bring them closer to.

I agree with you Brother Nick, my beliefs, if not based on the teachings of Christ, are irrelevant, and i think we all need to examine regularly whether or not the way we think and act is attuned to Christs teaching of Love and Compassion for those suffering and in need.

It's not the teachings of Christ, but the relationship it is supposed to build between you and Him that can't be done by rote. It is ongoing, and an eternal relationship between, you, me, all, and God.

I dont see myself as a "citizen" of any country Brother Nick, i see my allegiance to Christ alone, for as Christ so rightly said " You cant serve two Masters......" and i see Christs call to love others as i love myself wherever suffering and injustice occur in Gods world. ......" As to moving to the US and standing for office, i dont think you'd take me Brother Nick, and if by chance i was accepted and ran myself, whos going to vote vote for someone whos anti militarism, pro open borders, anti abortion, anti rich, pro poor, pro Environment and above all calls on voters to Love God and treat others as theyd like to be treated, not really an agenda for high office!

lol - don't extrapolate his word to fit every situation! It is not meant to be that way. Sadly, you do it too often, because as you see it you are not a citizen of a particular country, though you are, but of the world. Dominionism

You could run as a Democrat if you came here, because though ungodly in their belief, the things you would promote is what they do believe in.

With the Love of Christ Jesus, Brother Steve!
YBIC
Nick
\o/
<><

 

[Rad]

There in is the problem between us. You don't see the laws put in place as being required for us to follow when it in truth doesn't countermand the laws of God, Jesus. Jesus did not break the law of the day. He was able to show according to Scripture when they accused him of it, that it was allowed. You have yet not been able to show that, at least to me.

We must obey the laws of the land only in as much as they dont contravene the teachings of Christ, if they do, then our allegiance is not to Man made Laws but to the law of God. Acts 5:29
Acts 5:29
Then Peter, and the other apostles, answered and said
Peter began, as the mouth of the apostles, being the eldest man, and very bold and zealous; and the rest followed, or joined, with him in what he said:
we ought to obey God rather than men;
this is said in answer to the charge of disobedience to the orders and commands of the council: men, civil magistrates, and ecclesiastical rulers, are to be obeyed in things which are not repugnant to the will of God; but in things that are, God is to be obeyed, and not men. God had commanded by an angel, that the apostles should go to the temple, and there preach the doctrines of the Gospel; the sanhedrim had forbid them to speak and teach in the name of Christ; who were now to be obeyed? God, and not men: from whence it

We are commanded by Christ to follow his teachings and teach others the same, to do any differently would be to build our lives on Sand rather than on the solid rock of Faith. Matthew 7 24:27.

The teachings are not sovereign, Jesus Christ is, because He is God. What you said there is exactly what the Pharisee's & Sadducees did with the very law that was given to them by God. They took teachings/law to mean one thing, when the intent of God was something else entirely. They focused on the object and not the Source which is Who it was intended to bring them closer to.

But if Christ is Sovereign then surely so are his teachings, if Christ is your Lord then you cant claim to follow him if you disregard his teachings.

It's not the teachings of Christ, but the relationship it is supposed to build between you and Him that can't be done by rote. It is ongoing, and an eternal relationship between, you, me, all, and God.

I'm not saying it can be "built by rote", we do what we do because we Love God, but that relationship of love has to built upon the solid foundations of Christs teachings.

lol - don't extrapolate his word to fit every situation! It is not meant to be that way. Sadly, you do it too often, because as you see it you are not a citizen of a particular country, though you are, but of the world. Dominionism

I believe that Christs teachings should permeate into every aspect of my life, there are no divisions, no lines of demarcation, whether it be the spiritual, the moral, the political or the economic, for if we give our lives to Christ then it should be our whole lives, not just parts of it. And yes, legally, i am a "citizen of the UK, but i was referring to citizenship more in terms of allegiance. i feel no allegiance to the UK, or to any country, and definitely not the World itself, my allegiance is to Christ alone, and i try to follow his teachings wherever the need arises in Gods World.

You could run as a Democrat if you came here, because though ungodly in their belief, the things you would promote is what they do believe in.

No i couldnt run as a Democrat Brother Nick, i couldnt tie myself to any particular political Party for to do so would mean having to accept policies that i couldnt support, 20 years ago i was quite heavily involved in politics and found that the compromises i had to make in achieving a common aim were destroying the very Christian principles i hold so dear. And this is the problem with owing allegiance to any earthly group, it means compromise, and that compromise eats away at the soul until your faith becomes meaningless. This is why Christ said " You cant serve 2 masters,... you cannot serve God and Mammon", and what could be more Mammon then politics whose principle goals are power and Money.
But i'd be interested to know why you call Democrats "Ungodly", are you implying that Republicans are in some way "Godly"?. For myself, i regard us ALL as "ungodly", for which of us can stand before God on our own merits, and the world we have created is fundamentally Evil, ruled by greed, self interest and an indifference to the suffering we cause.
Just 2 examples that come to mind, after cutting billions of $'s in overseas aid last year which could cost 14 million lives over the coming years, i saw that the "War" Secretary is asking Congress for another $200 billion to pursue the war in Iran, and that in his first year in office Donald Trump had personally made $1.4 billion in selling his own merchandise, from watches at $500, to his own Broad band services, to personally signed Guitars at $11000 each and signed copies of the Bible at $1000 each. Are these the actions of a "Godly" administration.
It seems to me that power corrupts, and the more power , the greater the corruption, so no, i'd never get involved in politics, i support and reject individual policies where they agree or conflict with Christs teachings, but to give my allegiance to any political party would be to align myself with that power and corruption, and i have enough sins on my soul without adding more.

With the love of Christ Jesus Brother Nick

Steve

With the Love of Christ Jesus, Brother Steve!
YBIC
Nick
\o/
<><

 

[Bill]

We must obey the laws of the land only in as much as they dont contravene the teachings of Christ, if they do, then our allegiance is not to Man made Laws but to the law of God. Acts 5:29
Acts 5:29
Then Peter, and the other apostles, answered and said
Peter began, as the mouth of the apostles, being the eldest man, and very bold and zealous; and the rest followed, or joined, with him in what he said:
we ought to obey God rather than men;
this is said in answer to the charge of disobedience to the orders and commands of the council: men, civil magistrates, and ecclesiastical rulers, are to be obeyed in things which are not repugnant to the will of God; but in things that are, God is to be obeyed, and not men. God had commanded by an angel, that the apostles should go to the temple, and there preach the doctrines of the Gospel; the sanhedrim had forbid them to speak and teach in the name of Christ; who were now to be obeyed? God, and not men: from whence it

We are commanded by Christ to follow his teachings and teach others the same, to do any differently would be to build our lives on Sand rather than on the solid rock of Faith. Matthew 7 24:27.

But if Christ is Sovereign then surely so are his teachings, if Christ is your Lord then you cant claim to follow him if you disregard his teachings.

I'm not saying it can be "built by rote", we do what we do because we Love God, but that relationship of love has to built upon the solid foundations of Christs teachings.

I believe that Christs teachings should permeate into every aspect of my life, there are no divisions, no lines of demarcation, whether it be the spiritual, the moral, the political or the economic, for if we give our lives to Christ then it should be our whole lives, not just parts of it. And yes, legally, i am a "citizen of the UK, but i was referring to citizenship more in terms of allegiance. i feel no allegiance to the UK, or to any country, and definitely not the World itself, my allegiance is to Christ alone, and i try to follow his teachings wherever the need arises in Gods World.

No i couldnt run as a Democrat Brother Nick, i couldnt tie myself to any particular political Party for to do so would mean having to accept policies that i couldnt support, 20 years ago i was quite heavily involved in politics and found that the compromises i had to make in achieving a common aim were destroying the very Christian principles i hold so dear. And this is the problem with owing allegiance to any earthly group, it means compromise, and that compromise eats away at the soul until your faith becomes meaningless. This is why Christ said " You cant serve 2 masters,... you cannot serve God and Mammon", and what could be more Mammon then politics whose principle goals are power and Money.
But i'd be interested to know why you call Democrats "Ungodly", are you implying that Republicans are in some way "Godly"?. For myself, i regard us ALL as "ungodly", for which of us can stand before God on our own merits, and the world we have created is fundamentally Evil, ruled by greed, self interest and an indifference to the suffering we cause.
Just 2 examples that come to mind, after cutting billions of $'s in overseas aid last year which could cost 14 million lives over the coming years, i saw that the "War" Secretary is asking Congress for another $200 billion to pursue the war in Iran, and that in his first year in office Donald Trump had personally made $1.4 billion in selling his own merchandise, from watches at $500, to his own Broad band services, to personally signed Guitars at $11000 each and signed copies of the Bible at $1000 each. Are these the actions of a "Godly" administration.
It seems to me that power corrupts, and the more power , the greater the corruption, so no, i'd never get involved in politics, i support and reject individual policies where they agree or conflict with Christs teachings, but to give my allegiance to any political party would be to align myself with that power and corruption, and i have enough sins on my soul without adding more.

With the love of Christ Jesus Brother Nick

Steve

May Jesus fill us with his love and wisdom

I think you'll find that the Donald Trump from before is not the same person that he is now.

The way he was before was much in the world, a lot of his friends were Democrats if you recall even the Clintons. But he's changed, and he's accepted Jesus as his Lord. And this is been proven pretty well from his many speeches that he's been giving especially this last year where he's constantly praising God. Or he's constantly praising Jesus. Where he's constantly reaching out to those of faith.

I know that Donald Trump's heart has changed, so what you show of him of where he came from to where he is today is now two different worlds.

We must be careful when it comes to judging others because we never know where they're really at with the Lord. It's not really our job to judge another person in that manner our job is to reach out to them in the love of Jesus.

 

[Rad]

May Jesus fill us with his love and wisdom

I think you'll find that the Donald Trump from before is not the same person that he is now.

The way he was before was much in the world, a lot of his friends were Democrats if you recall even the Clintons. But he's changed, and he's accepted Jesus as his Lord. And this is been proven pretty well from his many speeches that he's been giving especially this last year where he's constantly praising God. Or he's constantly praising Jesus. Where he's constantly reaching out to those of faith.

We have a different view of Donald Trump Bill, i still see him as very "much in the world", someone driven by greed and a lust for power, but then thats the defining motivation of probably all leaders and those that aspire to high office, for thats what politics is all about, obtaining power and using it to further your own self interest and agenda. As to his Christian faith, i wouldnt comment on that except to say that words are cheap whereas actions tend to portray the true person, and looking at Donald Trumps actions, its hard for me to reconcile them with the teachings of Christ

I know that Donald Trump's heart has changed, so what you show of him of where he came from to where he is today is now two different worlds.

The cutting of Overseas Aid that will cost millions of lives of the poorest men, women and children in the World and the enriching of himself by $1.4 billion is in his second term to date, not in his first term.

We must be careful when it comes to judging others because we never know where they're really at with the Lord. It's not really our job to judge another person in that manner our job is to reach out to them in the love of Jesus.

i agree completely, and ive tried to desist from passing judgement on Donald Trump himself and only judging his actions, for i consider judgement of a person to be Gods prerogative alone. For he alone knows all the facts, all the things that make us do what we do, our life history, our personality, the opportunities that are presented to us and the tragedies we have to endure. But one thing i would add, contrary to what others may think ,i dont hate Donald Trump, i hate his policies and his actions, but i dont hate the man himself, because for one, i try not to hate anyone as hatred eats away at the soul like a cancer and Christ calls on us to Love others, even our worst enemies, , and secondly, regarding Donald Trump himself, i dont think he can help the way he is, i think hes either a Psychopath, sociopath, Narcissist or whatever terms used to describe someone who lacks any form of empathy for others and who sees the world solely in terms of what he can get out of it.

It doesnt surprise me that Jeffrey Epstein described Donald Trump as the "worst Human being he'd ever met" and "without a decent cell in his body". He also described him as "dangerous" and "Evil beyond belief", which given Donald Trumps present position doesnt bode too well for the future and i struggle with how so many Christians can regard him with favour and in some quarters even as a sort of Messianic figure sent to do the will of God..

 

[Twistie]

I am starting to believe that Trump derangement syndrome exists tho frfr

Hope all's well guys!

◉⁠‿⁠◉

 

[Twistie]

For thus saith the Lord unto the house of Israel, Seek ye me, and ye shall live:

But seek not Bethel, nor enter into Gilgal, and pass not to Beersheba: for Gilgal shall surely go into captivity, and Bethel shall come to nought.

Seek the Lord, and ye shall live; lest he break out like fire in the house of Joseph, and devour it, and there be none to quench it in Bethel.

Ye who turn judgment to wormwood, and leave off righteousness in the earth,

Seek him that maketh the seven stars and Orion, and turneth the shadow of death into the morning, and maketh the day dark with night: that calleth for the waters of the sea, and poureth them out upon the face of the earth: The Lord is his name:

◉⁠‿⁠◉

 

[Christ4Ever]

We must obey the laws of the land only in as much as they dont contravene the teachings of Christ, if they do, then our allegiance is not to Man made Laws but to the law of God. Acts 5:29
Acts 5:29
Then Peter, and the other apostles, answered and said
Peter began, as the mouth of the apostles, being the eldest man, and very bold and zealous; and the rest followed, or joined, with him in what he said:
we ought to obey God rather than men;
this is said in answer to the charge of disobedience to the orders and commands of the council: men, civil magistrates, and ecclesiastical rulers, are to be obeyed in things which are not repugnant to the will of God; but in things that are, God is to be obeyed, and not men. God had commanded by an angel, that the apostles should go to the temple, and there preach the doctrines of the Gospel; the sanhedrim had forbid them to speak and teach in the name of Christ; who were now to be obeyed? God, and not men: from whence it

We are commanded by Christ to follow his teachings and teach others the same, to do any differently would be to build our lives on Sand rather than on the solid rock of Faith. Matthew 7 24:27.

But if Christ is Sovereign then surely so are his teachings, if Christ is your Lord then you cant claim to follow him if you disregard his teachings.

I'm not saying it can be "built by rote", we do what we do because we Love God, but that relationship of love has to built upon the solid foundations of Christs teachings.

I believe that Christs teachings should permeate into every aspect of my life, there are no divisions, no lines of demarcation, whether it be the spiritual, the moral, the political or the economic, for if we give our lives to Christ then it should be our whole lives, not just parts of it. And yes, legally, i am a "citizen of the UK, but i was referring to citizenship more in terms of allegiance. i feel no allegiance to the UK, or to any country, and definitely not the World itself, my allegiance is to Christ alone, and i try to follow his teachings wherever the need arises in Gods World.

No i couldnt run as a Democrat Brother Nick, i couldnt tie myself to any particular political Party for to do so would mean having to accept policies that i couldnt support, 20 years ago i was quite heavily involved in politics and found that the compromises i had to make in achieving a common aim were destroying the very Christian principles i hold so dear. And this is the problem with owing allegiance to any earthly group, it means compromise, and that compromise eats away at the soul until your faith becomes meaningless. This is why Christ said " You cant serve 2 masters,... you cannot serve God and Mammon", and what could be more Mammon then politics whose principle goals are power and Money.
But i'd be interested to know why you call Democrats "Ungodly", are you implying that Republicans are in some way "Godly"?. For myself, i regard us ALL as "ungodly", for which of us can stand before God on our own merits, and the world we have created is fundamentally Evil, ruled by greed, self interest and an indifference to the suffering we cause.
Just 2 examples that come to mind, after cutting billions of $'s in overseas aid last year which could cost 14 million lives over the coming years, i saw that the "War" Secretary is asking Congress for another $200 billion to pursue the war in Iran, and that in his first year in office Donald Trump had personally made $1.4 billion in selling his own merchandise, from watches at $500, to his own Broad band services, to personally signed Guitars at $11000 each and signed copies of the Bible at $1000 each. Are these the actions of a "Godly" administration.
It seems to me that power corrupts, and the more power , the greater the corruption, so no, i'd never get involved in politics, i support and reject individual policies where they agree or conflict with Christs teachings, but to give my allegiance to any political party would be to align myself with that power and corruption, and i have enough sins on my soul without adding more.

With the love of Christ Jesus Brother Nick

Steve

Dear Brother Steve,
Something tells me that we'll just go around and around on this. In that this back and forth came about due to the question of Immigration/illegal Immigration from one country to another, for the good of people seeking refuge. I want to see if I have gotten your position correct, and in turn I would appreciate you do the same for what I have presented to you.

If I’ve misunderstood your position, please let me know how, and I’ll gladly extend the same courtesy when responding to your reply.

Your position: As I see it through your words, and references in the use of scripture through the many postings we have done between us.

Note: I could have been more specific in the below rendering, but I find that in most cases, less is better for understanding another's position without getting lost in the details or misinterpreting something that was never expressed by that person in the first place.

Jesus has commanded it, so we are to follow His commandments. Even if it goes against the laws of nations, we act this way because we believe Jesus’ commandments take precedence over those of man.

With the Love of Christ Jesus Brother, I await your reply.
YBIC
Nick
\o/

 

[Rad]

Dear Brother Steve,
Something tells me that we'll just go around and around on this. In that this back and forth came about due to the question of Immigration/illegal Immigration from one country to another, for the good of people seeking refuge. I want to see if I have gotten your position correct, and in turn I would appreciate you do the same for what I have presented to you.

If I’ve misunderstood your position, please let me know how, and I’ll gladly extend the same courtesy when responding to your reply.

Hi Brother Nick, could you briefly re-iterate your position again, i believe that you state we should follow the Law of the land in all circumstances, even if it means going against Christs teachings, as the governments of this world have been put in place at Gods command. I've probably got that wrong so would be grateful for your clarification.

Your position: As I see it through your words, and references in the use of scripture through the many postings we have done between us.

Note: I could have been more specific in the below rendering, but I find that in most cases, less is better for understanding another's position without getting lost in the details or misinterpreting something that was never expressed by that person in the first place.

Jesus has commanded it, so we are to follow His commandments. Even if it goes against the laws of nations, we act this way because we believe Jesus’ commandments take precedence over those of man

Yes thats a good summary of my position Brother Nick. i look forward to your reply.

With the love of Christ Jesus Brother Nick
Steve

With the Love of Christ Jesus Brother, I await your reply.
YBIC
Nick
\o/

 

[Christ4Ever]

Hi Brother Nick, could you briefly re-iterate your position again, i believe that you state we should follow the Law of the land in all circumstances, even if it means going against Christs teachings, as the governments of this world have been put in place at Gods command. I've probably got that wrong so would be grateful for your clarification.

Yes thats a good summary of my position Brother Nick. i look forward to your reply.

With the love of Christ Jesus Brother Nick
Steve

Dear Brother Steve,
Your reply made me smile. Since I can be a bit scatterbrained in my replies and have a tendency that becomes like throwing darts in trying to get a bullseye in making my point, I thought you might have some difficulty pinpointing what I believe. For it is not a shape, circle, square, triangle, what have you that can fix the situation that we are faced with, and in truth I believe there is no one way to fix it. At least not without the ensuing chaos that will result in trying only a singular way. This in truth is contrary to God, for a God of order is He, as can easily be seen by looking at a night sky, and seeing that all of it was for us whose very being is to Worship and Glorify Him and yet so different when just exactness without variance would have accomplished it (man's way of thinking).

In truth there is no clear cut one way I look at this problem, because each circumstance can be very different, and is why when people look at it, even in using scripture though they know there a myriad of ways of looking at something. Sadly, they will choose the very one that supports their own position, while ignoring the ones that do not. So, then conflict reigns within the Body of Christ.

That is why salvation is an individual relationship through Christ Jesus, and not a corporate one that has one size fitting all. Except of course that it must come through Jesus to be truthful and validly sealed by the Holy Spirit. This is exemplified by the testimonies of believers in scripture, which we can see happening even to this day. They have a uniqueness that I can only describe as God given. Praise His Holy Name that it is so! \o/

It's the same as with you, and the position you hold, to a foundational way of looking at a problem, that has more than one answer to it. You have chosen one way, but it is not the only way, because you only see the end result without necessarily considering the process by which you are to get there, and you want to believe it is true and right.

I do not believe this is true, according to scripture, or indeed in how God works to have His will done. Many examples are found in Scripture both OT & NT. Reflect on how Jesus did the miracles of healing. If you notice, no two were the same. Yet, what was accomplished, was perfectly done for the healing for that person. It does not mean any one of them was not perfectly done because it was differently done then another, or that it was less then another, but rather that it accomplished what was needed to be done, to the Glory of God, which was the purpose and not in the healing in and of itself.

The method by which this is done, is less important than how it is accomplished through Christ Jesus, that allows Him to be the author and finisher of the work in question. First in this problem/issue is to find the way of helping the individual in question, that does not make it worse for others, or for themselves for that matter. Otherwise, it becomes the preverbal "from the frying pan into the fire". In trying to solve one problem, others crop up, that can make the situation even worse for those we are trying to help.

This is why I have asked is this something that you have been moved by the Holy Spirit to do? Not the Word of God brother, but the Holy Spirit. The Word can be used to any number of people/powers and be said to be right and good in the undertaking. I would ask, by whose interpretation and to what end? lol

If I don't hear the Holy Spirit's then...who really knows but God how it will turn out, for it surely won't be us! Remember, God won't stop us from hurting ourselves or others, by acts that we do which we feel are motivated by His Words, when it's not His Will for it to be done not only in the first place, but at the perfect time which is His. We can both point to many examples of this happening. I say, "Holy Spirit anyone"?

Which means we could very well be like the man and his sons in the book of Acts when they attempted an exorcism! It did not turn out so well, did it? That in itself is a lesson worth paying attention to. Think of it this way. Even Satan used the Word of God. That truly should have a cautionary effect for us in handling God's Word to do something that applies to a problem we see happening in this world.

My position: I don’t believe anyone can use Scripture to fix a problem caused by their own or someone else’s actions or inactions without God guiding them.

With the Love of Christ Jesus Brother Steve!
YBIC
Nick
\o/

 

[Rad]

Dear Brother Steve,
Your reply made me smile. Since I can be a bit scatterbrained in my replies and have a tendency that becomes like throwing darts in trying to get a bullseye in making my point, I thought you might have some difficulty pinpointing what I believe. For it is not a shape, circle, square, triangle, what have you that can fix the situation that we are faced with, and in truth I believe there is no one way to fix it. At least not without the ensuing chaos that will result in trying only a singular way. This in truth is contrary to God, for a God of order is He, as can easily be seen by looking at a night sky, and seeing that all of it was for us whose very being is to Worship and Glorify Him and yet so different when just exactness without variance would have accomplished it (man's way of thinking).

Many thanks for that considered and thought provoking reply Brother Nick, theres so much in it that i had to read it 3 or 4 times to let the full meaning sink in, and also to give me the time to reflect, pray about what you've said and hopefully, guided by God in some way, give an appropriate response. I would just say in response to this part of your reply that i gave up trying to "fix" the problems in this world a long time ago, i try to act in accordance with Christs teachings and commandments and leave the rest to God. I accept that this world is heading for Armageddon and destruction, driven by our sinfulness, but that we must, as followers of Christ, act in Love, Justice and compassion to show Gods Love and Light in the darkness.

In truth there is no clear cut one way I look at this problem, because each circumstance can be very different, and is why when people look at it, even in using scripture though they know there a myriad of ways of looking at something. Sadly, they will choose the very one that supports their own position, while ignoring the ones that do not. So, then conflict reigns within the Body of Christ.

My solution is pretty simple, hard to do, but simple to understand, i approach every situation from Christs commandment of "Love your neighbour as yourself" and "Treat others as you'd want to be treated", the course of action then becomes relatively clear, the hard part is overcoming my inherent sinfulness in putting what i know i should do into practice, i therefore pray for forgiveness for all i havent done and know i should have, and for strength to do better, for that strength does not come from me, but from our Saviour who is our only fortitude, strength and hope in this suffering world.

That is why salvation is an individual relationship through Christ Jesus, and not a corporate one that has one size fitting all. Except of course that it must come through Jesus to be truthful and validly sealed by the Holy Spirit. This is exemplified by the testimonies of believers in scripture, which we can see happening even to this day. They have a uniqueness that I can only describe as God given. Praise His Holy Name that it is so! \o/

It is indeed Brother Nick, which is why i hesitate to pass judgement on anyone, for God alone knows all, we just see the actions, the human form, God alone knows the heart , the soul and what makes someone do what they do. In truth i have enough accounting for my own sins without passing judgement on others. And indeed " Praise His Holy Name that it is so!", for he is my rock and my redeemer upon which my life is built

It's the same as with you, and the position you hold, to a foundational way of looking at a problem, that has more than one answer to it. You have chosen one way, but it is not the only way, because you only see the end result without necessarily considering the process by which you are to get there, and you want to believe it is true and right.

I do not believe this is true, according to scripture, or indeed in how God works to have His will done. Many examples are found in Scripture both OT & NT. Reflect on how Jesus did the miracles of healing. If you notice, no two were the same. Yet, what was accomplished, was perfectly done for the healing for that person. It does not mean any one of them was not perfectly done because it was differently done then another, or that it was less then another, but rather that it accomplished what was needed to be done, to the Glory of God, which was the purpose and not in the healing in and of itself.

I try to follow what i believe Christ is calling me to do Brother Nick, the foundation of that, love your neighbour as yourself and treat others as youd want to be treated, is easy to ascertain, but putting it into practice, thats hard, very hard, for it requires a life of self denial, persecution and sacrifice in the name of Love and compassion, and for the sinners we all are, that is a very hard and narrow path to tread.

The method by which this is done, is less important than how it is accomplished through Christ Jesus, that allows Him to be the author and finisher of the work in question. First in this problem/issue is to find the way of helping the individual in question, that does not make it worse for others, or for themselves for that matter. Otherwise, it becomes the preverbal "from the frying pan into the fire". In trying to solve one problem, others crop up, that can make the situation even worse for those we are trying to help.

I do not think too muuch about the consequences of my actions Brother Nick, although i think long and hard about what i fail to do, if i feed the hungry, give drink to the thirsty, help house the homeless, help the sick and imprisoned and welcome the stranger then i know i'm doing what Christ commanded, indeed i'm helping Christ himself, the rest i leave up to God, for are we not to be as little children, they give, they show love, they share, without thought of whats next, and are we not to be like them, to receive the kingdom of God with a simple Love and Compassion in our hearts.

This is why I have asked is this something that you have been moved by the Holy Spirit to do? Not the Word of God brother, but the Holy Spirit. The Word can be used to any number of people/powers and be said to be right and good in the undertaking. I would ask, by whose interpretation and to what end? lol

If I don't hear the Holy Spirit's then...who really knows but God how it will turn out, for it surely won't be us! Remember, God won't stop us from hurting ourselves or others, by acts that we do which we feel are motivated by His Words, when it's not His Will for it to be done not only in the first place, but at the perfect time which is His. We can both point to many examples of this happening. I say, "Holy Spirit anyone"?

I have seen too many people Brother Nick who claim to have been "Led by the Spirit" but yet whose actions seem far from being Christ like, i believe it can be dangerous to feel that one has been in some way "Chosen", but i do believe that we are ALL moved by the Spirit when we try to follow the teachings of Christ, when we try to build our lives on the solid Rock of his truth. So as i've said before, i try to act in Love, justice and Compassion, to follow the teachings of my lord and Saviour and leave the rest to God, for if we look for "success" in our actions as proof of Gods will then i believe we are on sinking sands, Gods will and plans are often hidden from us, and all we can do, with a loving and humble heart is to try to do his will in this Dark world.

Which means we could very well be like the man and his sons in the book of Acts when they attempted an exorcism! It did not turn out so well, did it? That in itself is a lesson worth paying attention to. Think of it this way. Even Satan used the Word of God. That truly should have a cautionary effect for us in handling God's Word to do something that applies to a problem we see happening in this world.

My position: I don’t believe anyone can use Scripture to fix a problem caused by their own or someone else’s actions or inactions without God guiding them.

If i may say Brother Nick, in all humility, i think you should try to get away from this idea of "fixing things", it seems to me that we are called on to be the instruments of Gods Love, Justice and Compassion in his world and then pray for the strength to do that, pray for the forgiveness of our sins in not doing what we should and leave the rest to God. God may indeed guide us, either through his word or through the strength and hope he gives us to continue, but our faith is that of a child before a loving Father, do not take too much on yourself or over complicate this life, for it is ALL based on LOVE, of that Loving Father and of our Neighbour.

With the Love of Christ Jesus Brother Nick

Steve

With the Love of Christ Jesus Brother Steve!
YBIC
Nick
\o/

 

[Christ4Ever]

My position: I don’t believe anyone can use Scripture to fix a problem caused by their own or someone else’s actions or inactions without God guiding them.

If i may say Brother Nick, in all humility, i think you should try to get away from this idea of "fixing things", it seems to me that we are called on to be the instruments of Gods Love, Justice and Compassion in his world and then pray for the strength to do that, pray for the forgiveness of our sins in not doing what we should and leave the rest to God. God may indeed guide us, either through his word or through the strength and hope he gives us to continue, but our faith is that of a child before a loving Father, do not take too much on yourself or over complicate this life, for it is ALL based on LOVE, of that Loving Father and of our Neighbour.

Dear Brother Steve,
As you can see I have liked what you have posted. For that is what you are sharing comes from your heart, and desire to do according to what our Lord and Savior would want us to do irrespective of the results or affects to others that it may have. You at least are honest in that respect.

I just can't be the one who does not see "my" resulting actions without considering what it does to the one I am helping, not just from my perspective, but also their own. For, how it affects the other, to me is more important than my own consideration if it were me in their place, unless I am guided by the Holy Spirit to act upon it, for then my own thoughts and how I see it are irrelevant.

Otherwise, it becomes selfishness/pride that I am acting upon, in the belief of how that saying goes "what is good for the goose, is good for the gander", which is not always true or beneficial to the gander. lol

So, what you believe is right for you doesn't mean that it is right for me. Only God, can determine that to be so. I'm sure you are of the belief, that in what you believe is faithfulness, He will make it right, even if it's wrong to do. Sadly, that is what I see in your actions. For your sincerity is evident, in what you do, though the process is questionable at best.

I repeat, I am not so bold to think that what is beneficial to me, must also be so for others and so tailor my actions in that way...I'll stop now, because I've said this before, if not in so many words, but you do not see it.

Except to say, that you did not understand my position as stated above, which was not about "me" fixing anything, but quite the opposite, and how many use the Word of God to justify doing so. I support this position by asking the following question and answer: How can someone take what benefits them personally and assume it will also benefit everyone else? You can't. That's God's purview not ours.

You can help me carry my burdens, but you can't carry my Cross for me Steve.

With the Love of Christ Jesus dear brother.
Nick
\o/

 

[Rad]

Dear Brother Steve,
As you can see I have liked what you have posted. For that is what you are sharing comes from your heart, and desire to do according to what our Lord and Savior would want us to do irrespective of the results or affects to others that it may have. You at least are honest in that respect.

Thanks Brother Nick, i try to act and speak from the Heart as i believe thats where the basis of our Faith lies.

I just can't be the one who does not see "my" resulting actions without considering what it does to the one I am helping, not just from my perspective, but also their own. For, how it affects the other, to me is more important than my own consideration if it were me in their place, unless I am guided by the Holy Spirit to act upon it, for then my own thoughts and how I see it are irrelevant.

Otherwise, it becomes selfishness/pride that I am acting upon, in the belief of how that saying goes "what is good for the goose, is good for the gander", which is not always true or beneficial to the gander. lol

But that is surely what we are commanded to do, " To Love our Neighbour as ourselves" and to "treat others as we'd want to be treated", we cant put ourselves in the position of others, we cant enter their heads or carry the burdens they do, we can only do what Christ commands us to do and leave the rest up to him.

So, what you believe is right for you doesn't mean that it is right for me. Only God, can determine that to be so. I'm sure you are of the belief, that in what you believe is faithfulness, He will make it right, even if it's wrong to do. Sadly, that is what I see in your actions. For your sincerity is evident, in what you do, though the process is questionable at best.

The question is Brother Nick, do we follow Christs teachings, do we build our faith and our actions on the solid rock of his truth, or do we think that we know best, do we try to rationalise and prevaricate about the situation when in truth alls we are asked to do is respond with Love and compassion by putting ourselves in their situation and asking the question, "What would i want", and if we listen to our hearts and not our mind then the answer becomes clear

I repeat, I am not so bold to think that what is beneficial to me, must also be so for others and so tailor my actions in that way...I'll stop now, because I've said this before, if not in so many words, but you do not see it.

But thats what we're called to do,.......and i'll stop as well, because as you said, ive said this before.

Except to say, that you did not understand my position as stated above, which was not about "me" fixing anything, but quite the opposite, and how many use the Word of God to justify doing so. I support this position by asking the following question and answer: How can someone take what benefits them personally and assume it will also benefit everyone else? You can't. That's God's purview not ours.

But thats what Christ commands us to do Brother Nick, in situations of suffering and need , of people that are hungry, thirsty, homeless, the sick, the imprisoned the stranger, the poor and the marginalised, our response would be pretty universal, if we are hungry we would want to be fed, if thirsty given water, if homeless ,housed,...... and if we do in fact see our Saviour in the face of those in need then how great must our response of Love and compassion be to them.

With the love of Christ Jesus Brother Nick

Steve

You can help me carry my burdens, but you can't carry my Cross for me Steve.

And thats all we're called on to do Brother Nick and to leave the rest to God.

With the Love of Christ Jesus dear brother.
Nick
\o/

 

[Christ4Ever]

Dear Brother Steve,
You probably won't like this post much.

I just can't be the one who does not see "my" resulting actions without considering what it does to the one I am helping, not just from my perspective, but also their own. For, how it affects the other, to me is more important than my own consideration if it were me in their place, unless I am guided by the Holy Spirit to act upon it, for then my own thoughts and how I see it are irrelevant.

Otherwise, it becomes selfishness/pride that I am acting upon, in the belief of how that saying goes "what is good for the goose, is good for the gander", which is not always true or beneficial to the gander. lol

But that is surely what we are commanded to do, " To Love our Neighbour as ourselves" and to "treat others as we'd want to be treated", we cant put ourselves in the position of others, we cant enter their heads or carry the burdens they do, we can only do what Christ commands us to do and leave the rest up to him.

The problem is you have to. Why? Because as scripture also says, Philippians 2:4 Let each of you look out not only for his own interests, but also for the interests of others.
Meaning not just doing good, but you must also consider what it means to another. Otherwise, you in truth could be doing them harm and not the good you think you are doing if it were you.
So, you love peanuts, but they're allergic to them....The basis of your love is in Jesus, but the good that you do, is based off of what you consider to be good? I don't think that is what Jesus meant.

The example that Jesus was saying, has to do with how people addressed the issue of helping others i.e. Good Samritan story; which is that most people are selfish, and look after their own interests, and will not help others unless there is personal gain or does not inconvenience them. So, a person will do for themselves what they would not do for another, is not how Jesus ever worked, nor how He expects us to work. If you truly love them, and want to do good for them, you will consider them in what you do, because in truth what is good for you does not mean it will be good for them, for it's not about you but them. Leaving it up to Jesus is taking the easy way out and abdicates your own responsibilities to doing good to others, after all isn't this about you and not them?

So, what you believe is right for you doesn't mean that it is right for me. Only God, can determine that to be so. I'm sure you are of the belief, that in what you believe is faithfulness, He will make it right, even if it's wrong to do. Sadly, that is what I see in your actions. For your sincerity is evident, in what you do, though the process is questionable at best.

The question is Brother Nick, do we follow Christs teachings, do we build our faith and our actions on the solid rock of his truth, or do we think that we know best, do we try to rationalise and prevaricate about the situation when in truth alls we are asked to do is respond with Love and compassion by putting ourselves in their situation and asking the question, "What would i want", and if we listen to our hearts and not our mind then the answer becomes clear

No, the question is what exactly is Jesus wanting me to do? You say Love and Compassion, but what does those translate to? He's not telling us exactly what that is but gives us enough to know that what we do must uplift the other as we would want to be uplifted. I have a person who lives in a hut, and then move him to NYC, or London. You can even reverse this as well. How are they to get along, when all they might know is plowing a field, and have never ridden a transit vehicle in their life, or bought food in a store with money instead of bartering? No job. Not even considering the language differences, speaking, reading, and the list goes on. This is why I truly believe it is questionable at best the process you are looking to affect another's life, without proper consideration which I mention previously. You must consider them, or are you lacking the love for them to do go that far, and want Jesus to take care of it?

Except to say, that you did not understand my position as stated above, which was not about "me" fixing anything, but quite the opposite, and how many use the Word of God to justify doing so. I support this position by asking the following question and answer: How can someone take what benefits them personally and assume it will also benefit everyone else? You can't. That's God's purview not ours.

But thats what Christ commands us to do Brother Nick, in situations of suffering and need , of people that are hungry, thirsty, homeless, the sick, the imprisoned the stranger, the poor and the marginalised, our response would be pretty universal, if we are hungry we would want to be fed, if thirsty given water, if homeless ,housed,...... and if we do in fact see our Saviour in the face of those in need then how great must our response of Love and compassion be to them.

No what you are doing, is what "you" consider what is best for another and blaming Jesus for it! lol Oh, I agree with the needs of people, but you must know those people to know their needs! You say in truth that you only need to know how you yourself would satisfy that need for it to be handled, to provide for another, but in truth are you going to be able to do what is good for them, by using your own life as a template without their own life/experiences being considered?

Have you felt those very same needs, whatever they may be, that you are trying to pull others from? I imagine some you do, but be honest, where many of these migrants are coming from, are not your own experiences make. Nor mine. I would not even begin to speak to believing that my life till now, can be compared to theirs, nor would I necessarily want them to have mine either! In many ways, their own lives through hardships and all, have many virtues that we have lost due to our technological advancements. If you don't see this, then you haven't looked close enough around our modern society.

It truly goes a lot deeper than the simplification that you have presented, and from what I can tell in this last post of yours. Which you excuse yourself from having to deal with. For in truth, you're not really helping them for their sake, but assuaging your conscience in the believe you are complying with the commandments of Jesus and are able to wash your hands of the repercussions of it by laying it at Jesus' feet when it becomes harmful to them and doesn't turn out as it did for you.

Sorry brother, for being a bit harsh in this response. You take the bitter with the sweet, in this. For as I've said it before, in truth I do admire what you seek to do, but the process leaves much to be desired. For if you're doing it to comply with Jesus' Commandments, how different are you then those who followed the OT laws, in the attempt of doing what is right, not for others sake, but for themselves. This is not loving brother, which is the most important Commandment, of which all others rest upon. You must love the Lord your God with all your heart and might. And you must love them as you love yourself, which is not about material things, but spiritual ones brother. Your thoughts are worldly as if it's materialistic things that we work with communicates or shows that you love them. It does not.

I love you brother, because you have shared with me of your inner self, and not a morsal of food or shelter have you given me. Give them Jesus, and you will have given them more than if you'd given them the world.

With the Love of Christ Jesus Brother Steve!
YBIC
Nick

 

[Jesua888]

It doesnt surprise me that Jeffrey Epstein described Donald Trump as the "worst Human being he'd ever met" and "without a decent cell in his body". He also described him as "dangerous" and "Evil beyond belief", which given Donald Trumps present position doesnt bode too well for the future and i struggle with how so many Christians can regard him with favour and in some quarters even as a sort of Messianic figure sent to do the will of God..

A case of the pot calling the kettle black ...

 

[Rad]

Dear Brother Steve,
You probably won't like this post much.

If your posts are what you truly believe Brother Nick and are delivered in a spirit of understanding and Compassion, both of which are true, then how could i possibly not like them. You have your view, i have mine, and surely one of the reasons for these discussion boards is to present those views to each other as a means of ascertaining Gods truth for our lives.

The problem is you have to. Why? Because as scripture also says, Philippians 2:4 Let each of you look out not only for his own interests, but also for the interests of others.
Meaning not just doing good, but you must also consider what it means to another. Otherwise, you in truth could be doing them harm and not the good you think you are doing if it were you.
So, you love peanuts, but they're allergic to them....The basis of your love is in Jesus, but the good that you do, is based off of what you consider to be good? I don't think that is what Jesus meant.

I think we are somewhat at cross purposes here Brother Nick. I am talking of fundamental Human needs, Food, clothing, shelter, clean water, provision of healthcare, aid to the imprisoned and the welcoming of the "stranger" and i believe our response to these needs is universal as Christ stated in Matthew 25 vs 31-46, if we are hungry we need food, if we are naked, we need clothes, if we are without shelter, we need homes, if we are sick we need medical care, if we are imprisoned we need support and if we are a stranger we need welcoming. And when Christ said "Treat others as you'd want to be treated" then i think there are few of us that wouldnt want these basic needs to be met. Indeed ,if we believe Christs words in Matthew 25, then in the person of the suffering and needy we see him and our response to those in need will be a determinant in our ultimate Salvation or otherwise.

The example that Jesus was saying, has to do with how people addressed the issue of helping others i.e. Good Samritan story; which is that most people are selfish, and look after their own interests, and will not help others unless there is personal gain or does not inconvenience them. So, a person will do for themselves what they would not do for another, is not how Jesus ever worked, nor how He expects us to work. If you truly love them, and want to do good for them, you will consider them in what you do, because in truth what is good for you does not mean it will be good for them, for it's not about you but them. Leaving it up to Jesus is taking the easy way out and abdicates your own responsibilities to doing good to others, after all isn't this about you and not them?

I believe the parable of the Good Samaritan was in response to "who is my Neighbour", who should we "Love as ourselves?, to which Christ portrayed a member of an outcast community, the Samaritans", helping a complete stranger in dire need while the "righteous" religious folk walked on by. Those in need are our "Neighbours" who we must love as ourselves and treat as we would want to be treated. The Good Samaritan didnt stop to think, he just acted out of Love and compassion and helped as best he could. And that isnt advocating my responsibility Brother Nick, its hard, well it is for me, to love others as ourselves, our inherent selfishness pulls us one way, Christs commandments and our own Love and compassion pull us the other, and we usually end up somewhere in the middle, doing something but not all we could do, and asking God for forgiveness for our wretched sinfulness. Oh no, its not easy, not an abdication, but an acceptance of the lives we lead and how far we are from the Love we profess.

No, the question is what exactly is Jesus wanting me to do? You say Love and Compassion, but what does those translate to? He's not telling us exactly what that is but gives us enough to know that what we do must uplift the other as we would want to be uplifted. I have a person who lives in a hut, and then move him to NYC, or London. You can even reverse this as well. How are they to get along, when all they might know is plowing a field, and have never ridden a transit vehicle in their life, or bought food in a store with money instead of bartering? No job. Not even considering the language differences, speaking, reading, and the list goes on. This is why I truly believe it is questionable at best the process you are looking to affect another's life, without proper consideration which I mention previously. You must consider them, or are you lacking the love for them to do go that far, and want Jesus to take care of it?

Without repeating myself Brother Nick, i believe that our Love and Compassion is encapsulated in "Loving your neighbour as yourself, treating others as youd want to be treated and the practical application of that philosophy is portrayed in the Sheep and the goats, feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, housing the homeless etc..... and as for the person living in a hut, their needs would probably be far simpler than you state, they'd want improved housing, clean water, help with their crops, schooling and healthcare for them and their children and if they had to flee their homes due to war , violence, persecution of climatic shocks then a loving acceptance and welcome as strangers. And i believe that on this Earth, we are called to be Gods hands and feet , we are called to be his instruments of Love and compassion, we are called to give our all for those in need regardless of the consequences, its not a question of letting " Jesus take care of it", but acting in a way that s guided by his teaching and shows Gods love to this suffering world.

No what you are doing, is what "you" consider what is best for another and blaming Jesus for it! lol Oh, I agree with the needs of people, but you must know those people to know their needs! You say in truth that you only need to know how you yourself would satisfy that need for it to be handled, to provide for another, but in truth are you going to be able to do what is good for them, by using your own life as a template without their own life/experiences being considered?

But we cant "know these people" Brother Nick, atm there are tens of millions of people in Sudan and hundreds of millions more across Gods world facing hunger and starvation, are we to ask each one of them what they want before we act, or do we do as Christ commanded and Feed the Hungry. And i believe that if we truly have gods Love within us then when we act out of love and compassion we are indeed doing the right thing, as ive said basic human needs are pretty universal and so therefore must our response be.Food for the hungry, water for the thirsty, homes for the homeless.........

Have you felt those very same needs, whatever they may be, that you are trying to pull others from? I imagine some you do, but be honest, where many of these migrants are coming from, are not your own experiences make. Nor mine. I would not even begin to speak to believing that my life till now, can be compared to theirs, nor would I necessarily want them to have mine either! In many ways, their own lives through hardships and all, have many virtues that we have lost due to our technological advancements. If you don't see this, then you haven't looked close enough around our modern society.

The truth is i havent experienced any of the horrendous sufferings that so many others have to endure Brother Nick, but thats where empathy comes in, we have a unique capacity to understand what others are going through, well understand as best we can, when we see a mother with a dying infant in her arms, or a man trying to provide for his family although war and drought have devastated all he had, or a child breathing their last as they die from Measles or Malaria, we can feel their pain, feel their heartache, understand as best we can their suffering, and the solution becomes clear, the only question is do we have the Love, Compassion and Faith to follow through on our understanding

It truly goes a lot deeper than the simplification that you have presented, and from what I can tell in this last post of yours. Which you excuse yourself from having to deal with. For in truth, you're not really helping them for their sake, but assuaging your conscience in the believe you are complying with the commandments of Jesus and are able to wash your hands of the repercussions of it by laying it at Jesus' feet when it becomes harmful to them and doesn't turn out as it did for you.

And there is truth in what you say brother Nick, i do act partly to assuage my Guilt, my guilt at doing so little, my guilt at having so much when others have nothing, my guilt at living in wealth and comfort while others live and die in poverty and deprivation, my guilt at professing my faith of love and compassion but of doing do little to express that faith in action, oh yes Brother Nick, there is guilt there, but i also hope that there is compassion as well, and Love, and of trying to do more. And if you knew me better then youd know i dont Wash my hands of the repercussions by laying it at Jesus feet when it becomes harmful", much heartache and questioning has led to so many sleepless nights over the years, 2 cases may perhaps illustrate this, after the Rwandan genocide in 1994 many of the perpetrators and their families fled Rwanda to the DRC where they set up refugee camps and continued their genocidal attacks on Rwanda, do you feed those people, do you care for them, do you enable their atrocities, and if you dont then are their children who will die as a result on your conscience?, i gave my money but never fully answered that question. And after the 1985 famine in Ethiopia where millions of pounds was donated in humanitarian relief and many lives were saved, a whole generation of orphans grew up without parents and living in foster homes. Theres a good chance that some of those same orphans joined the army as a stable"home" and steady income that theyd never had. In 2008 , 23 years later, Ethiopia invaded Somalia and their soldiers committed horrific atrocities, theres a good chance that those very same children i helped to survive went on to commit those horrors, so am i in some way culpable. I think you misunderstand me brothert Nick, when i say "Leave the rest to Christ", i say that in the knowledge of his ultimate power and authority and in no way diminish the responsibility i feel for my own actions.

Sorry brother, for being a bit harsh in this response. You take the bitter with the sweet, in this. For as I've said it before, in truth I do admire what you seek to do, but the process leaves much to be desired. For if you're doing it to comply with Jesus' Commandments, how different are you then those who followed the OT laws, in the attempt of doing what is right, not for others sake, but for themselves. This is not loving brother, which is the most important Commandment, of which all others rest upon. You must love the Lord your God with all your heart and might. And you must love them as you love yourself, which is not about material things, but spiritual ones brother. Your thoughts are worldly as if it's materialistic things that we work with communicates or shows that you love them. It does not.

Youve not been harsh at all Brother Nick, and i greatly respect your understanding way of posting, we disagree on many points but can do so in a spirit of tolerance and love, as it should be between fellow believers. And i dont treat Christs commandments as a sort of "checklist" that must be followed. To me Christs words are a living testament , the only solid rock i have in my life on which i can hopefully build my faith based on his truths. And i often question the nature of my "Love", i guess its an emotional involvement with the suffering in this world, as i said in one of my previous posts i believe our faith is based on our heart and not our mind, we need to open our hearts to the pain around us and do all we can to show Gods love in this fallen world, this is what it means to me to "take up my Cross", a life of pain and sacrifice in the cause of Love, but before i get too carried away with what i know i should do, the reality is often so different, the only thing i can say is that i try, with the strength my faith gives me , to do better, and i reckon thats all any of us can do.

And its about material and spiritual things brother Nick, the Sermon on the mount is all about how we should lead our lives in the service of others, the parable of the Good Samaritan is about helping our "brother" in need, the Sheep and the goats is all about the material love and compassion we must show to the poor and outcast, Lazarus and the rich man shows the dangers of living a materially rich life while others die from poverty and hunger, Zacchaeus was only saved after he had agreed to give half his fortune to the poor and return 4 fold what he'd received by extortion, The rich man was told to "Give all he had to the poor and come follow Christ and he shall have Treasure in heaven", a call Christ re-iterated a number of times, we are to "Let our good works shine so that men may seem them and glorify our Father in Heaven. There is no division between the material and the spiritual Brother Nick for both are so closely entwined in our lives that to try to separate them is both futile and against christs teaching.

I love you brother, because you have shared with me of your inner self, and not a morsal of food or shelter have you given me. Give them Jesus, and you will have given them more than if you'd given them the world.

We need to give them both Brother Nick, for is that not what we would want in their place, and the best way we can Give and Show Gods Love for them is in our actions of love and Compassion. It is not either/or, it is both Brother Nick, the complete package of Gods love for his suffering world.

With the love of Christ Jesus Brother Nick

Steve

With the Love of Christ Jesus Brother Steve!
YBIC
Nick