Do You Have To Be Baptised To Recieve The Holy Spirit

[B-A-C]

For now, I am not arguing OSAS. Lets just say some of them were never saved to make it easy.
But some of them really were saved. What is the difference? Don't say some didn't believe, because they all believed.
It must be something else.

 

[B-A-C]

I don't either. I believe there are verses that can be construed in that way, but there are other verses that seem to say differently, and I have faith that I have taken both into account and have drawn the right conclusion from the entire Bible.

The emboldened sentences in your two posts are throwing me off. Should this sentence of yours "Many people received the Holy Spirit after they had been saved a while." maybe actually read "Many people received the Holy Spirit after they had believed for a while."?

John 12:42 Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue: Were the people in this verse "saved" when they believed? And I don't think it fair for us to try to question whether or not they were actually sincere in their "believing"; if they weren't sincere in their believing then I think it would have read something more like, "they wanted to believe" or "they almost believed" so I'm stuck assuming that they had to have really believed but didn't go any farther than that with it. So, there is something else to do after the state of belief; This verse gives us at least one of those things: "confessing" Him.

That is a great question. Perhaps another thread could be started, asking TJ members that feel they have received the Holy Ghost to try to explain why they believe they have received it, just to see what kind of feedback that you get(?).

I'm not absolutely positive that I believe that a person could know if another person actually has the Holy Ghost without actually having it themselves, just from what little bit that I've gathered from scripture on it.

Acts 19:1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
Acts 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

Why would Paul have questioned whether they had received the Holy Ghost or not if it were not something that he could tell was missing? I wanna believe that he only knew because he himself had the Holy Spirit, but I'm just assuming. I do not believe that I have ever received the Holy Spirit. I believe I feel something sometimes but believe that the receiving of the Holy Ghost would be something that would be very noticeable. I've had people try to convince me that I have the Spirit, but do not believe it is something that you would need someone else to tell you that you have.

Ok, I like that, maybe believing isn't always the same thing as saved. I'll buy that.
I have asked the question before. Usually it comes down to 4 answers.

1. When I got saved (whatever that means, however I think their answer would be "when I believed in Jesus")
2. When I got baptized in water.
3. When I spoke in tongues (or some other tangible sign, Like doing a miracle or prophecy)
4. I don't know.

My point is, that no one in the Bible received the Holy Spirit under circumstances 1 and 2 above (possible exception is Jesus under #2)

 

[RJ]

But some of them really were saved. What is the difference? Don't say some didn't believe, because they all believed.
It must be something else.

• Why does it have to be something else?
• How do you know that some or all believed ?

 

[B-A-C]

• Why does it have to be something else?
• How do you know that some or all believed ?

Joe and Bob both got saved. They got saved on the same day, in the same church.
You ask them both 100 questions about what they believe about Jesus and they both give you the exact same answers.
Five years later Bob says he doesn't want to be a Christian anymore and doesn't want to believe in Jesus anymore. He wants to go back to womanizing and alcohol.
Joe wants to keep being a Christian (whatever that means).

So okay maybe Bob was saved, maybe he never was.. for now it doesn't really matter.
The point is, he isn't saved right now. What was the difference between Joe and Bob five years ago?
If there was no difference, why aren't both of them still saved?

 

[RJ]

Joe and Bob both got saved. They got saved on the same day, in the same church.
You ask them both 100 questions about what they believe about Jesus and they both give you the exact same answers.
Five years later Bob says he doesn't want to be a Christian anymore and doesn't want to believe in Jesus anymore. He wants to go back to womanizing and alcohol.
Joe wants to keep being a Christian (whatever that means).

So okay maybe Bob was saved, maybe he never was.. for now it doesn't really matter.
The point is, he isn't saved right now. What was the difference between Joe and Bob five years ago?
If there was no difference, why aren't both of them still saved?

God doesn't deal in hypotheticals.
But, I will play along. "So okay maybe Bob was saved, maybe he never was.. for now it doesn't really matter"/ If there was no difference .....You make an erroneous conclusion that it doesn't matter and that there was no difference! It does matter and it is a big difference...Bob was not saved in the first place and Joe was.

 

[B-A-C]

This isn't hypothetical. It's real (for several cases actually). The names have been changed, but everything else is real.

So OK, lets say Bob was never saved in the first place. What was the difference between Joe and Bob?
What made one saved, and the other not saved?

 

[RJ]

This isn't hypothetical. It's real (for several cases actually). The names have been changed, but everything else is real.

No human can know exactly what is in the heart of a man, only God can do that! SO, it is never hypothetical for God, but you B-A-C, it would be hypothetical because you don't have the power to know for sure. if you agree that once God is in you, saved, that he will never leave, then the assumption (discernment) is that Bob, by his actions, was not saved in the first place and you have proven my point as good or better than I could!

 

[B-A-C]

No human can know exactly what is in the heart of a man, only God can do that! SO, it is never hypothetical for God, but you B-A-C, it would be hypothetical because you don't have the power to know for sure. if you agree that once God is in you, saved, that he will never leave, then the assumption (discernment) is that Bob, by his actions, was not saved in the first place and you have proven my point as good or better than I could!

So you are saying, it's Bob's actions, not his faith that determines if he is saved?
If no man can know for sure, then how do any of us know if we are saved for sure?

 

[Stickz]

I think there are a lot of Bob's that continue to "believe" ( or at least say that they believe in front of people ) and keep going to church and putting on a smile just because they were told that they must continue to believe ( it's all about faith, right? ) or say that they do to be saved. To me, it seems kinda Catch 22-ish; I do not believe that one can "believe" their way into Heaven like that. Many people are putting faith into an interpretation of a verse or group of verses and not necessarily putting their faith in God or Jesus Christ. My opinion. Why does everyone believe that their interpretation or the interpretation that they get from their church is the right one? Many people say, "You can just tell when you're 'saved'." Oh, that explains it all--especially when everyone claims that they are saved and there are so many interpretations of Bible verses out there. There are a lot of people that have been willing to die for what they believe, but that doesn't get you into Heaven, does it?

Which is easier to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee or Stand up and Walk? Faith that provides no fruit is no faith at all. And if a tree is discernible by it's fruit then fruit is something perceivable to us.

Matthew 9:5 For whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and walk?
Matthew 9:6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.
Matthew 9:7 And he arose, and departed to his house.
Matthew 9:8 But when the multitudes saw it, they marvelled, and glorified God, which had given such power unto men.

 

[RJ]

So you are saying, it's Bob's actions, not his faith that determines if he is saved?

Yes his actions prompted by his lack of faith. If he had "the " faith, he would have not revealed his undegenerated spirit and returned to an unrepentant lifestyle.

If no man can know for sure, then how do any of us know if we are saved for sure?

That is too easy..by the faith that you only get from God and which Joe displayed! You never question your own faith, do you?

 

[B-A-C]

I think there are a lot of Bob's that continue to "believe" ( or at least say that they believe in front of people ) and keep going to church and putting on a smile just because they were told that they must continue to believe ( it's all about faith, right? ) or say that they do to be saved. To me, it seems kinda Catch 22-ish; I do not believe that one can "believe" their way into Heaven like that. Many people are putting faith into an interpretation of a verse or group of verses and not necessarily putting their faith in God or Jesus Christ. My opinion. Why does everyone believe that their interpretation or the interpretation that they get from their church is the right one? Many people say, "You can just tell when you're 'saved'." Oh, that explains it all--especially when everyone claims that they are saved and there are so many interpretations of Bible verses out there. There are a lot of people that have been willing to die for what they believe, but that doesn't get you into Heaven, does it?

Admittedly, there are those who are saved, those who don't want to be, and those who think they are.
So how does anyone know where they are in that mix? How does anyone know where anyone else is?

 

[Stickz]

So, even RJ appears to be saying that one way to tell how "saved" you are is by the sin that you continue to commit after you begin professing Christ, but how much sin can continue to happen in a person's life before they should start wondering if they should go back and try it again because they were apparently not "saved" the first time around? Because it has always seemed to come to this I finally decided that one either has to stop all sin or none, drawing lines for a grey area is ridiculous and confusing and God cannot be the author of it.

 

[Stickz]

Give your definition for that word that you keep using, RJ, please: unrepentant.

 

[B-A-C]

Yes his actions prompted by his lack of faith. If he had "the " faith, he would have not revealed his undegenerated spirit and returned to an unrepentant lifestyle.

That is too easy..by the faith that you only get from God and which Joe displayed! You never question your own faith, do you?

But for five years his actions were those of a Christian. I know others I could say the same about for ten, fifteen or even twenty years.
Some of these people have been pastors, missionaries, and Sunday school teachers. Some of them have led others to Christ.

Yes sometimes I do question my own faith, as did the apostles and Peter.

Matt 14:30; But seeing the wind, he became frightened, and beginning to sink, he cried out, "Lord, save me!"
Matt 14:31; Immediately Jesus stretched out His hand and took hold of him, and *said to him, "You of little faith, why did you doubt?"

Matt 17:19; Then the disciples came to Jesus privately and said, "Why could we not drive it out?"
Matt 17:20; And He *said to them, "Because of the littleness of your faith; for truly I say to you, if you have faith the size of a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you.

Luke 17:5; The apostles said to the Lord, "Increase our faith!"

 

[RJ]

there are those who are saved

Born again, filled with the Holy Spirit and repentant

those who don't want to be

Apostates, totally unrepentant

those who think they are

If they have believed, then they are the same as those who saved.
There is one more, those who say they are but still not repentant or regenerated.

 

[RJ]

But for five years his actions were those of a Christian. I know others I could say the same about for ten, fifteen or even twenty years.
Some of these people have been pastors, missionaries, and Sunday school teachers. Some of them have led others to Christ.

There are plenty of pastors, missionaries and Sunday school teachers that have never been saved. You are saved by faith and not works. In the last days, these are the ones who say: "Lord-Lord" and you know what happens to them!

 

[B-A-C]

Born again, filled with the Holy Spirit and repentant

Apostates, totally unrepentant

If they have believed, then they are the same as those who believe
There is one more, those who say they are but still not repentant or regenerated.

But what about those who repent for many years and then turn back?
It seems everything I ask those who "still" believe and those who "used to" believe have exactly the same answers abut what they believe(d).
You still haven't given me the definition of who believes and who doesn't believe except to say their actions are what defines their belief.
If that's true, then it seems actions/works/deeds are part of what saves us rather than faith alone.

 

[B-A-C]

There are plenty of pastors, missionaries and Sunday school teachers that have never been saved. You are saved by faith and not works. In the last days, these are the ones who say: "Lord-Lord" and you know what happens to them!

Yet according to your earlier definitions of "their actions" they are saved. (at least for a while)

 

[RJ]

But what about those who repent for many years and then turn back?
It seems everything I ask those who "still" believe and those who "used to" believe have exactly the same answers abut what they believe(d).
You still haven't given me the definition of who believes and who doesn't believe except to say their actions are what defines their belief.
If that's true, then it seems actions/works/deeds are part of what saves us rather than faith alone

• There is a difference between outwardly believing, like Water Baptism, and inwardly believing and receiving the Holy Spirit from god.
• A true unbeliever does not have God in him. At rue believer has god in him.
• No, faith saves you alone and actions/works/deeds through the Spirit confirms your salvation afterwards!

 

[RJ]

Yet according to your earlier definitions of "their actions" they are saved. (at least for a while)

Jesus says that without him in you, "you can do nothing". When he says nothing, he doesn't mean absolutely nothing (remember, those who say Lord - Lord), he just means nothing that counts. When he is not in, you may still do some pretty impressive things but, in the kingdom of God, those things are burned up with the rest of the trash and "filthy rags"!