Does God exist inside or outside of TIME

[51_5_16-18]

I said don't care but thats not true. My question is God is God, why can't he exsist both in and out of time? I think God is beyond our understanding. Just like God can reside both in and out of us. And can be in all places at all times. We can't do this or undertand it but God is all powerful.

 

[Tago_Stampede]

Obviously

Gen 1:1 KJVR
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

If's not true, I won't be a follower in the first place, lol:shade:

 

[SpiritLedEd]

I read somewhere recently that Albert Einstein once said that time exists only to keep everything from happening at once.

God subjectively created time when He separated day from night, morning from evening (see Gen 1:5). However, God is not subject to time. Time exists only in the human realm. "Do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years and a thousand years are like a day." (1 Pet 3:8)

SLE

 

[Chad]

Well said brother Ed. Gen 1:5 clarifies this nicely with 1 Pet 3:8 as you quoted.

This is an excellent article on GOD being infinite (and eternal)

What does it mean that God is infinite?

Meriam Webster Dictionary

Omnipresence
- present in all places at all times

Eternal
- valid or existing at all times : timeless <eternal verities>

Infinite
1: extending indefinitely : endless <infinite space>
2: immeasurably or inconceivably great or extensive : inexhaustible <infinite patience>
3: subject to no limitation or external determination
4 a: extending beyond, lying beyond, or being greater than any preassigned finite value however large <infinite number of positive numbers> b: extending to infinity

 

[jiggyfly]

The theory of relativity, basically states that time is relative to light. Time passes slower the closer you get to the speed of light, the possibility is that if one could reach the speed of light time would cease. Now this is theory, so don't shout me down, I'm just repeating it.

So in trying to apply this to the topic, God is light, so God is not relative to time but rather time is relative to God, which means God is eternal.

I am not a science major, and I am sure there are many others here on this forum alone far more educated and intelligent than myself. Feel free to correct my understanding of the theory of relativity.


Colossians 1:9-17
9*For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding; 10*that ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God; 11*strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness; 12*giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: 13*who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14*in whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15*who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16*for by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17*and he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

 

[jiggyfly]

[*]If God exists outside of time, He is able to see the entire continuum, past present and future, as if looking at a road from high enough up with perfect eyesight - you'd be able to see where it originates and where it ends and everything in between, and touch down on any part of it.

The truth will always bear witness to the Son of God, Jesus the Christ.

In this example you have given, I see it bearing witness to the Truth. Father looks at His Son, who happens to be the road (path) that leads from death to life. He sees His Son who is the Beginning and the End.

 

[Pedronewt]

If God is outside of time and can see the entire continuum, past present and future then all our choices and actions are foregone conclusions to God. In other words, He knows exactley what choice your going to make tomarrow because from His "perspective" you will have already made it. This presents some problems for "free will." Do we really have the ability to choose or is it an illusion? From God's perspective, are we not just stuck on the train tracks of life with no real ability to deviate from the tracks? Or worse, Does God really have the ability to bring something forth different than what was already "seen" by Him millions of times? How much better to actually live, react, and relate in the present.


I guess the biggest problem for me is explaining how God can be personal or how He can have a relationship with man if He already knows everything aboslutely. I mean it would have to be like an actor performing a play in a theatre. He would be there saying/doing all the right things at the right times, but never really experiencing true emotions. It would be like forever knowing the punchline before the joke even began, and having to listen to it over and over. The movie Ground Hog's Day comes to mind. How long did it take before Bill Murray had experienced everything, knew everything about everybody, and was so bored with it all that he started trying to kill himself everyway possible.

To make it concise, explain to me how free will works in reguards to God's absolute knowledge of the future?

 

[Joebob787]

ok, I try my best

If i stick a Bowl of ice cream, A bowl of broken glass, and a Bowl of rocks in front of a young kid, which one are is he gonna take? Hes gonna take the ice cream. We know what he is going to choose before he chooses. even though we know his choice, we still give him a choice. We have to rely on God in Life to tell us which one is the Ice cream, Which on is the rocks, and which on is the broken glass.

 

[Pedronewt]

I too would choose the ice cream but I think there is a flaw in your theory. You assume he is going to take the ice cream because of your knowledge of what is the most valuable and it would therefore seem the obvious best choice. Just like God desires for us to do what is right because it is of highest value. Reality is that we often choose something less than best. In Genesis we see Adam and Eve choose an apple over intimacy with God, in Exodus we see the children of Israel choose a golden calf over the presence of the living God. Man even tortured and crucified the Son of God who had done nothing wrong.

In Isaiah, God wonders why people didn't take the ice cream (make the right choice) as expected.
Isaiah 5:1Let me sing now for my well-beloved
A song of my beloved concerning His vineyard.
My well-beloved had a vineyard on a fertile hill.
2He dug it all around, removed its stones,
And planted it with the choicest vine
And He built a tower in the middle of it
And also hewed out a wine vat in it;
Then He expected it to produce good grapes,
But it produced only worthless ones.
3"And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem and men of Judah,
Judge between Me and My vineyard.”
4"What more was there to do for My vineyard that I have not done in it?
Why, when I expected it to produce good grapes did it produce worthless ones?


In Genesis, why is He "striving with man?" Was it not all going as "foreseen?"
Genesis6:3 Then the LORD said, " My Spirit shall not strive with man forever,”

And why would God be sorry he had created man, and allow himself to suffer grief if He knew this was going to be the out come.
Genesis 6:5 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 The LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.

It can even be seen where God is curious about how devoted we are to Him and tests man so he can experiencially know.
Genesis 22:12 And He said, “Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.”

Ultimately, just because you "know" somebody will choose something doesn't mean they will. It is not a reality until the choice is actually made. The future is full of possibilities, the present is reality, and the past is nothing more than memories. It is because of this very fact that we have a hope and faith of Salvation. Mercy and forgiveness stand on the hope that we won't get what is expected.

 

[Pedronewt]

The theory of relativity, basically states that time is relative to light. Time passes slower the closer you get to the speed of light, the possibility is that if one could reach the speed of light time would cease. Now this is theory, so don't shout me down, I'm just repeating it.

Not trying to shut you down, just presenting an update. Einstein's theory has problems. His equation has the speed of light being the constant. i.e. - time is relative to light. However light is not a constant. The speed of light can be altered. It is Time that is the constant. No matter how fast you go, it still ticks away at the same pace.

You can search google and find that light has been slowed down to 38 mph, and has been pushed to speeds of 300 times over the normal speed of light.

Another thought. If Einstein's theory was true then the converse should be true as well. Time would pass faster the further you moved from the speed of light.

 

[SpiritLedEd]

The problem with us trying to investigate the whys and hows of God's actions is that we can only view the subject through the lens of our very limited human intelligence. Here, according to what I've been taught and believe, is my take on the issue:

God is absolutely, unchangeably perfect. Therefore, all His actions are absolutely, unchangeably perfect, including the act of granting free will to all humans. This means that God cannot arbitrarily intervene in our lives and alter the decisions we make that put ourselves or others in harms way. It doesn't mean that He is not all-powerful; nor does it mean that He doesn't love us. But, it does mean that arbitrary intervention (against our wills) on His part would be a violation of His absolute, unchangeable perfection and, therfore, cannot happen.

Thus, our salvation and our experiencing the truly abundant life is dependent on our making a conscious, firm decision to turn our wills and our lives over to the Lord Jesus. We need to be actively involved in our Salvation each and every day.

SLE

P.S. I suggest that that conscious, firm decision be repeated often, as we are fast forgetters.

 

[jiggyfly]

Not trying to shut you down, just presenting an update. Einstein's theory has problems. His equation has the speed of light being the constant. i.e. - time is relative to light. However light is not a constant. The speed of light can be altered. It is Time that is the constant. No matter how fast you go, it still ticks away at the same pace.

You can search google and find that light has been slowed down to 38 mph, and has been pushed to speeds of 300 times over the normal speed of light.

Another thought. If Einstein's theory was true then the converse should be true as well. Time would pass faster the further you moved from the speed of light.

Well, while I'm not saying I agree with Einstein, I do disagree with you, the scriptures speak very clearly to the contrary of your opinion.

Joshua 10:12-15
12*On the day the Lord gave the Israelites victory over the Amorites, Joshua prayed to the Lord in front of all the people of Israel. He said,
“Let the sun stand still over Gibeon,
and the moon over the valley of Aijalon.”
13*So the sun and moon stood still until the Israelites had defeated their enemies.
Is this event not recorded in The Book of Jashar* ? The sun stopped in the middle of the sky, and it did not set as on a normal day. 14*The Lord fought for Israel that day. Never before or since has there been a day like that one, when the Lord answered such a request from a human being.
15*Then Joshua and the Israelite army returned to their camp at Gilgal.

 

[Joebob787]

Psalm

1
139:1-12

O LORD, thou hast searched me, and known me.
2Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off.3Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways.4For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O LORD, thou knowest it altogether.5Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me.6Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it.7Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?8If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.9If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;10Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.11If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me.12Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.13For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.14I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.
We are not God. We are not Omniscience. We accept it by Faith that God is Holy. God's thoughts are above ours.

 

[Brother Mike]

Ok

I think we are looking at God as some Alien. God knows past, present and future.

If God knows the future according to what he has spoken, His Word must come to pass.

Mat 21:4 All this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying,

I see him performing his Word as he has said it without fail.

Pedronewt has some very valid points.

Did God know Adam was going to eat that fruit?
By Adams sin, Death filled this planet, Satan got the lease on the earth from Adam and became the god of this world.

Had God known this was going to happen, then God stood by while Adams transgression caused pain and suffering for thousands of years to come. Why even tell Adam not to eat the fruit?

This would mean that God is not thinking the best of everyone. We can take Jer 29:11 and throw it away. We can also throw out a lot of other scriptures.

Gen 11:5 And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men built.

Why did not the Lord know before hand? Why did he have to come down and check things out?
There are many scriptures like this and you just can't shrug them off.

The only way to make everything fit, is to assume God does not know how every individual is going to respond every time. I am sure he has a pretty good guess as his wisdom, and his knowing you goes past what we can even conceive.
God can know the future, as it will have to become what he says it will become. He can't know every ones response to things.

Here is another suggestion............................ That would make every scripture fit, nothing can contradict.....

God said he would remember your sins no more..... That means he does not have the ability to go back into your records and look up past forgiven sins........ They are blotted out from him.

You and I have this ability, we can forgive and move on, but we are able to always remember. This says something about his divine nature.
God can not lie? even if God tried as hard as he could it would be impossible to him... More of who he is? more of his divine NATURE....

Could it be, that God has chosen not to know everything? That he would never break this for a second? You and I would always want a peek, but not God.

I will share with you my Question to God about this very thing. AS with all things that begin with Thus saith the Lord, they can not be taken as fact right away, but judged first..........

The Lord spoke to me, He said

Son, I created you on my level, in my image, as my child. I did this to fellowship with my people on my level. I have a good idea of what choice you will make in life, but I always believe the best of you. I can not see any failure in you, so if you do leave me, and not obey me, I could not have known as I make a way out for you. I always expect mine to obey, and do that which is right before me, and never to fail in this life. I am a faith God..................

This may crunch some Doctrine, but He knows the past, present and future according to what He has spoken.

 

[SpiritLedEd]

I guess the biggest problem for me is explaining how God can be personal or how He can have a relationship with man if He already knows everything absolutely

"'For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are my ways your ways', declares the Lord. 'As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.'''
(Is 55 :8-9)

"Faith is the substance of things hoped for; firm conviction of what is not seen (understood)" (Heb 11:1))

"Trust in the Lord with all your heart.Don't lean on your own understanding." (Prv 3:5)

Through faith, God shows us the certainty of things we do not understand. It is through the exercise of faith (not human intellect) we learn that we can trust Him.


SLE

 

[Pedronewt]

God is absolutely, unchangeably perfect. Therefore, all His actions are absolutely, unchangeably perfect, including the act of granting free will to all humans. This means that God cannot arbitrarily intervene in our lives and alter the decisions we make that put ourselves or others in harms way. It doesn't mean that He is not all-powerful; nor does it mean that He doesn't love us. But, it does mean that arbitrary intervention (against our wills) on His part would be a violation of His absolute, unchangeable perfection and, therfore, cannot happen.

Thanks for your response. My question in turn is; then why pray? If God does not intervene in the results of man's free will, Why ask God for protection, or healing? Why do we pray for miracles?

In regards to Prv 3:5, I could as easily have used it and doesn't really support either possition. Also, how can anyone hold a conviction of something they don't understand? Conviction implies being convinced of something. I do agree God's ways are higher than mine, but the question is, are they beyond my abilities? Our intellect is a God given gift, not something that should be set aside. Or else why would God have invited us to reason with him (Isaiah 1:18), or expect us to live righteously. I would suggest that it is through reason that faith is established. I can reason and know that God is holy not just by "blind faith", but because God said it, The Old and New Testimonies of His character prove it, and I have personally experienced it. These facts let me reason that my faith in Him is valid and sure, and when He says, "there is a hope and a future," I can reason and know that I can believe Him because He is trust worthy.


Back to the topic at hand. Could you imagine an existence always knowing what is going to happen. There would be no excitement, no surprises, just an endless eternity of already made certainties. How boring! How much more exciting is the possibility of...possibilities. I have suggested that God doesn't know the future as an absolute certainty. This will immediately cause some of you to react negatively because we think "how then can God be in control?" We too often forget His other attributes of nature. His omnipresence, He is everywhere and is aware of you at all times. And His Omnipotence, He is able to handle any situation that may arise. He doesn't have to know what will happen next to secure His end, he can react and guide as it is happening. So you will ask, "then how do you define omniscience?" Answer: God knows everything knowable. He knows all reality as reality, and all possibilities as possibilities. How can he say what will happen in the future? Ah, this goes back to the question of prophecy which I answered in post #14. (sorry, not sure how make a link)


thanks again to all. I find this challenging and stimulating. Proverbs 27:17

P.S. Joshua 10:12-15 - aka: longest day in history. Time didn't stop, just the Sun in the sky. Funny thing is the sun doesn't rotate around the Earth. Shouldn't he have said, "Earth be still."?

 

[mikemattice]

Eternal vs. immortal

I believe time is irrelevant to God. He has established it for our understanding that nothing in this world (including this world) and all of creation is not eternal. God alone is eternal, having no beginning or end.

The heavenly hosts of angels are like us in that they are immortal, having a creation (beginning) but no end.

In the fullness of time (only God knows when that is), this heaven (the universe) and earth will end. God will create a new heaven and a new earth for Him to reside with His children forever. And just as Adam and Eve walked and talked with God in the garden everyday, so will we!

A former pastor of mine used to say "Time is merely the measurement of death." Death did not come into being until Adam and Eve sinned.

God exists outside of time, is not influenced at all by it, but for our sake, is L-O-N-G-S-U-F-F-E-R-I-N-G.

 

[mikemattice]

Oh yeah, I wanted to ask, how do you get the Scripture references in your post to show the actual text when the pointer rolls over them? I like that feature!

 

[mikemattice]

Pedronewt,
Fascinating!
That is an incredibly complicated issue, and you have an interesting perspective. I'll think about that, and get back to you.

 

[SpiritLedEd]

Could you imagine an existence always knowing what is going to happen? There would be no excitement, no surprises, just an endless eternity of already made certainties. How boring!

The excitement isn't lost because God does not reveal the results of our actions beforehand. We still have the right to choose and the challenge to pray for guidance in lining our will up with His when we petition Him. Jesus told us to submit to the Father's will in the model prayer to the Father He gave us - "your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven." (Mt 6:10)

The problem so many people have with God when He doesn't respond to prayer in the way they'd like Him to is that they haven't submitted to His will in the matter.Consciously or unconsciously they assume that what they want Him to do is best. We've forgotten to end our petitions to God with "Not my will, but your will be done".

SLE