Does mankind really have free will?

[KingJ]

Why might God put limits on His omniscience?

To uphold who He is.

It is easier to understand limited omniscience by considering limited omnipotence. God limits His omnipotence to allow evil to take place. God bashers will accuse God's inaction of wickedness. Whilst Christians grasp it is good as it is evidence of true free will. Even Jesus was not given a free pass. It pleased God to bruise Him. God utterly hates evil. He is light with no darkness in Him 1 John 1:5. So we ''''''neeeeeeeed'''''' to grasp the lengths He goes to to allow for true free will. He literally ties His hands from helping defenseless babies being raped by wicked pedophiles!

Now for us to come along and say He is all powerful all the time is simply a gross misunderstanding of God. God likewise limits His omniscience to allow for true free will. Just because God can do anything does not mean He does. Just because God can know all things, does not mean He does. When it can be proven that doing or knowing is a clear evil, He restricts Himself to be good. God is as good as He is great. We need to let all scriptures define God, not just three words.

A common response from Christian philosophers, such as Norman Geisler or William Lane Craig, is that the omnipotence paradox assumes a wrong definition of omnipotence. Omnipotence, they say, does not mean that God can do anything at all but, rather, that he can do anything that's possible according to his nature. The distinction is important. God cannot perform logical absurdities; he cannot, for instance, make 1+1=3. Likewise, God cannot make a being greater than himself because he is, by definition, the greatest possible being. God is limited in his actions to his nature. The Bible supports this, they assert, in passages such as Hebrews 6:18, which says it is "impossible for God to lie." Omnipotence paradox - Wikipedia

 

[Dovegiven]

To uphold who He is.

It is easier to understand limited omniscience by considering limited omnipotence. God limits His omnipotence to allow evil to take place. God bashers will accuse God's inaction of wickedness. Whilst Christians grasp it is good as it is evidence of true free will. Even Jesus was not given a free pass. It pleased God to bruise Him. God utterly hates evil. He is light with no darkness in Him 1 John 1:5. So we ''''''neeeeeeeed'''''' to grasp the lengths He goes to to allow for true free will. He literally ties His hands from helping defenseless babies being raped by wicked pedophiles!

Now for us to come along and say He is all powerful all the time is simply a gross misunderstanding of God. God likewise limits His omniscience to allow for true free will. Just because God can do anything does not mean He does. Just because God can know all things, does not mean He does. When it can be proven that doing or knowing is a clear evil, He restricts Himself to be good. God is as good as He is great. We need to let all scriptures define God, not just three words.

A common response from Christian philosophers, such as Norman Geisler or William Lane Craig, is that the omnipotence paradox assumes a wrong definition of omnipotence. Omnipotence, they say, does not mean that God can do anything at all but, rather, that he can do anything that's possible according to his nature. The distinction is important. God cannot perform logical absurdities; he cannot, for instance, make 1+1=3. Likewise, God cannot make a being greater than himself because he is, by definition, the greatest possible being. God is limited in his actions to his nature. The Bible supports this, they assert, in passages such as Hebrews 6:18, which says it is "impossible for God to lie." Omnipotence paradox - Wikipedia

Man went through the door of knowledge as evidenced in
Genesis 3:23 (KJV)
23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

God then withheld what man needed to live forever while in the flesh. He allowed access to His knowledge, limiting His omniscience to whatever degree man acquires, with some knowledge sealed even from men passing it on (Daniel, Ezekiel eating the roll, John in Rev).

Jesus was with God long before being born in the flesh. He knew the Father's will enough to lay His crown down, knowing He would take it up again. While in the flesh He was briefed by Moses and Elijah on the mount of transfiguration as to the nature of His last week. He didn't exercise free will to the point of crossing the Father's will. He had free will to yield His will.

Scriptures do not support God tying His hands to allow rape. He gave man power of law and law enforcement, and will hold men accountable for not preventing or severely punishing rapists. We had a convicted rapist in our community who was released in Indiana after just 2 years in prison there, now accused of that again, plus having drugs and a gun. Whoever let him go in that state will answer to God. Meanwhile we suffer here due to lack of public involvement in crime prevention and meaningful punishment, voting weak politicians and judges back in time after time. God gave man dominion, but man has dropped the ball all along. God is not the culprit.

 

[Sue D.]

And, this Is a fallen world. And, you're right people WILL answer to God for all eternity.

 

[KingJ]

Man went through the door of knowledge as evidenced in
Genesis 3:23 (KJV)
23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

God then withheld what man needed to live forever while in the flesh. He allowed access to His knowledge, limiting His omniscience to whatever degree man acquires, with some knowledge sealed even from men passing it on (Daniel, Ezekiel eating the roll, John in Rev).

Not sure how this relates.

Jesus was with God long before being born in the flesh. He knew the Father's will enough to lay His crown down, knowing He would take it up again. While in the flesh He was briefed by Moses and Elijah on the mount of transfiguration as to the nature of His last week. He didn't exercise free will to the point of crossing the Father's will. He had free will to yield His will.

Jesus said before the cross ''If it be thy will please take this cup from me''. What does that point to?

Scriptures do not support God tying His hands to allow rape.

You missing the point. Does rape take place, yes or no?

 

[KingJ]

And, this Is a fallen world. And, you're right people WILL answer to God for all eternity.

If I believed in God's omniscience and omnipotence as you do I would have to believe God annihilates the wicked. Completely ends their existence. That would point to us being an experiment of sort.

But with your belief I find it disturbing. You are all for ''eternal lake of fire and brimstone torture'' yet you believe God does not limit His omniscience. You believe that from birth He knew person X would go to hell. So why did He create person X? You ''ARE'' espousing a wicked God.

 

[Victor Van Heerden]

God annihilates the wicked

UH. Did you forget Noah's WORLD WIDE FLOOD. God wiped out every land creature breathing and probably most creatures living in the waters both fresh, brackish and salty.

 

[Victor Van Heerden]

A common response from Christian philosophers, such as Norman Geisler or William Lane Craig

Their opinions. And every one has one.

 

[KingJ]

UH. Did you forget Noah's WORLD WIDE FLOOD. God wiped out every land creature breathing and probably most creatures living in the waters both fresh, brackish and salty.

Please see post 4 here The Love and Wrath of God!.

The context of annihilation is permanent death. Some Christians believe this.

 

[KingJ]

Their opinions. And every one has one.

It is not an opinion. I have contributed over ten thousand words and hundreds of scriptures in support of a similar view. It is where the evidence points.

A smart person will know that grasping God be a difficult exercise. Very difficult. We have to consider where the evidence points.

But you and Sue seem to have grasped God as you grasp the dictionary definition of ''omniscience'.

 

[Victor Van Heerden]

annihilation is permanent death.

Nope. The Bible speaks of the second death when you are cast into the burning lake called Hell (Gehenna) And i.m sure all living creatures killed during the WWF would be aggrieved at God's holy wrath. Wither it was permanent or not. They were gone from this earth and its pleasures. innocent babies etc. If you don't think that is bad enough than i don't know what will shake you out of your apologetic academic ivory tower type reasoning favoured by the aloof, smug and pompous types like WL Craig. Who by the way accepts the ToE. What kind of Christian accepts the ToE. Most on this site would say that he is not a true, genuine born again Christian.

 

[Victor Van Heerden]

God limits His omniscience.

Really! Why would he? Does he have omniscience or not. Its like you are saying God is ducking and diving because he is too powerful so he is embarrassed by his powers so he looks the other way. Does that sound like God to you. Nothing is impossible for God and if he wanted 1+1 to be three it is three. period. Full stop. GOD IS GOD!!!!!!!!!

 

[KingJ]

Nope. The Bible speaks of the second death when you are cast into the burning lake called Hell (Gehenna) And i.m sure all living creatures killed during the WWF would be aggrieved at God's holy wrath. Wither it was permanent or not. They were gone from this earth and its pleasures. innocent babies etc. If you don't think that is bad enough than i don't know what will shake you out of your apologetic academic ivory tower type reasoning favoured by the aloof, smug and pompous types like WL Craig. Who by the way accepts the ToE. What kind of Christian accepts the ToE. Most on this site would say that he is not a true, genuine born again Christian.

Annihilationism is the belief that you will be utterly destroyed at the second death Annihilationism - Wikipedia.

 

[KingJ]

Really! Why would he? Does he have omniscience or not. Its like you are saying God is ducking and diving because he is too powerful so he is embarrassed by his powers so he looks the other way. Does that sound like God to you. Nothing is impossible for God and if he wanted 1+1 to be three it is three. period. Full stop. GOD IS GOD!!!!!!!!!

If you use caps and a few more exclamation marks with the words ''God is good'' you will understand why He limits it.

God is as good as He is great.

Example: Your wife keeps a diary, do you read it? You can. You have access to the bedroom and draw she keeps it in. But do you?

 

[Victor Van Heerden]

If you use caps and a few more exclamation marks with the words ''God is good'' you will understand why He limits it.

God is as good as He is great.

Example: Your wife keeps a diary, do you read it? You can. You have access to the bedroom and draw she keeps it in. But do you?

I have started a new OP debate " God’s ways are not our ways - Don’t read into the Bible your own desires and sensibilities!" lets continue there.
God’s ways are not our ways - Don’t read into the Bible your own desires and sensibilities!

 

[Sue D.]

Please see post 4 here The Love and Wrath of God!.

The context of annihilation is permanent death. Some Christians believe this.

Bible does Not teach annihilation of Anyone. The soul of every person will live in either heaven or hell. Well -- technically -- the New Jerusalem or lake of fire and brimstone. And the Future existence of the lake of fire and brimstone is Not torture. It's simply ever lasting place of eternal darkness , gnashing of teeth, etc. The total absence from God and the eternal presence of satan and the false prophet and the beast as well as anyone who does not accept God's way of staying Out of there.

The soul that sinneth -it will die physically but Not spiritually.

 

[Dovegiven]

Not sure how this relates.

Jesus said before the cross ''If it be thy will please take this cup from me''. What does that point to?

You missing the point. Does rape take place, yes or no?

No scripture suggesting He has hands tied ever.
Sin happens constantly.
Persecution is on the rise.
God will deal with it later.
He has already made provisions for believers to live in peace with Him.

The Father and Son had been in agreement all along to carry out that cup. The human side naturally hoped for something else that would be equally effective. He did exercise free will by asking for relief yet while submitting to do the right thing.

 

[Sue D.]

Quote another verse then.

Does God limit His omnipotence to allow for evil to take place? Omnipotence = all powerful -- no getting around it.

Just looked that up -- other verses about lake of fire and brimstone -- Revelation 19:20 21:8 20:10 Matt 18:8 Mark 9:47-48 Matt. 13:42.

 

[Sue D.]

And -- somewhere on another page -- a comment about babies and the mentally impaired people -- a person has to be able to understand their own sinfulness and understand salvation. To be able to make verbal decisions. Babies and mentally impairs people would fall under this condition. God's grace covers them. And there Are mentally impaired people who Have been able to accept Jesus Christ as their personal Savior. And it can't be simply mimicking what they hear someone else saying. Because Scripture says that it is the heart that believes and the mouth that confesses. Parroting someone Else is Not your own heart- belief. And , when the Holy Spirit is dwelling with a person, it Will be apparent. "By their fruits they can be known". Their lives will reflect it.

 

[KingJ]

No scripture suggesting He has hands tied ever.

I just don't know how you are not getting it. If evil happens.....His hands are not tied from stopping it?

 

[Victor Van Heerden]

If evil happens.....His hands are not tied from stopping it?

They are. Evil is not only sourced from the free will of humanity. What about demons , devil, natural disasters etc.? They could be classed as evil because they are capable of causing pain and suffering, and why doesn't God get rid of them?