Eternal Security

David777 · Jan 23, 2012

Yo..

Eric E Stahl you declared;

We can not do anything to not be owned by Jesus.

Well, why is the New Testament so rich with warnings?

If disconnection is impossible, why bother telling Christians to make their election more sure?

I just do not understand the New Testament at all from your perspective.

judge not · Jan 23, 2012

Eric E Stahl said:
Romans 4:8

It is not possible to be lost because God will not charge your spirit with sin after you have accepted Jesus into your heart

If you own a dog but it runs away, you still own the dog.

Christians are bought with a price and we belong to Jesus.

We can not do anything to not be owned by Jesus.

In 2 Peter 1:10
" .....give diligence to make your calling and election sure for if you do these things, YE SHALL NEVER FALL.
Why the warning if we need not be afraid of losing what was given to us.
In the church in those days they were being infiltrated and corrupted by false teachers called the anti-Christs-these were people that were never believers but were among the Christian brothers.

judge not · Jan 23, 2012

jari said:
Yes but John says Born again christians dont "leave":

1Jn 2:18-19 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. (19) They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

So these people were too first believers, then they become anti christs.

Anti-Christs were people against Christ, false teachers. They infiltrated and corrupted Christians in the churches in John's day but they were never believers -they were part of them only to contaminate the gospel.
2 Thess 2:3 - Paul tells us there will be a falling away before Jesus Christ will return - " Let no man deceive you by any means for that day shall not come (the return of Jesus to earth), except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition "
You have to fall from something-these were converted born again Christians he was talking to-we've had the warnings and it's up to us to be diligent to save ourselves from losing what has been given to us.

eddieb · Jan 23, 2012

Eric E Stahl said:
<style>  </style> Eternal Security

If a person asks Jesus to come into their heart and asks God to forgive their sins and tells others

that they have accepted Jesus as Lord because He died for their sins and rose from the grave,

that person is saved from going to hell when they die. But what happens if that person sins later

in life?

a good example of this is adam. adam had fellowship with God. then he sinned. and back then there was no law other than dont eat the fruit from this tree.( i chose this scripture refrence for simplicity) afterwards he became "disconnected" from God. the sin killed his spirit. the wages of sin is death. this is what happens to a believer when they sin. they become disconnected from fellowship with God.
God hates sin. and one must repent. however, thank God for this scripture:
romans 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

Jesus' suffering has paid for our sin in full. by repenting we agree with God that he is right and Good and holy and soverign. repentance is a form of submission to God. one could even argue its a form or surrender to every thing He is. now when i say Jesus' suffering paid for our sin i mean all of it. past present and future.
after re-reading this i do feel the urgency to type this aswell. grace isnt a license to go on sinning. or to not repent. there is a message one can find in the old testament and the new: STOP SINNING!!! be ye holy as I AM holy. God intends us to live moral and clean. no matter what. and this is the part thats beautiful to me, he forgives when we admit our wrong doings. and even more if we have fallen down even into bondage- He delivers us.

What a friend we have in Jesus!

David777 · Jan 23, 2012

Wait, there is more.

There is another verse in 1 John that clearly states;

And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.(1 John 2:2, NKJV)

What could this sentence mean?

jari · Jan 23, 2012

judge not said:
Anti-Christs were people against Christ, false teachers. They infiltrated and corrupted Christians in the churches in John's day but they were never believers -they were part of them only to contaminate the gospel.
2 Thess 2:3 - Paul tells us there will be a falling away before Jesus Christ will return - " Let no man deceive you by any means for that day shall not come (the return of Jesus to earth), except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition "
You have to fall from something-these were converted born again Christians he was talking to-we've had the warnings and it's up to us to be diligent to save ourselves from losing what has been given to us.

Your missing two points in 1John. First John said they would have no doubt continue with us. He didnt say if they werent such anti-christ they might just as well have continued with us. No he said they would have no doupt continued with us.
Second John said they came from us. He didnt say they came to us to tell lies, he says they started with them (They went out from us). But they turned to anti-christ thinking.
because like john says they werent really part of them, although they went out from them.

gdemoss · Jan 23, 2012

Eric E Stahl said:
We can not do anything to not be owned by Jesus.

Jesus bought everyone with his blood. There isn't one soul that he doesn't own. He has laid out the terms clearly in the New Testament. Believe and be saved. Believing requires certain action. That action is laid out clearly in scripture. The thief on the cross completed the task, he picked up his cross and followed Jesus. It just happened to be after he was nailed to it. You and I don't have it so easy. We must pick ours up daily and die to ourselves glorifying Christ in our mortal flesh. But if a person really believes that Jesus is the righteousness of God manifest in the flesh, what other choice do they have but to drop everything and follow him all the way to death, proclaiming that Jesus is Lord with every action they do?

Jesus bought everyone. Just like one buys a bag of grapes. You don't keep the rotten ones, you dispose of them. Depart from me you worker of iniquity, I never knew you is what all the sour grapes will hear just before they end up in the Lake of Fire.

In Jesus Name,

Gary

jari · Jan 23, 2012

David777 said:
Galations 6:8 (NASB)
For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.

What possible profit would sowing to the Spirit derive?

Is it not true that the Hebrews who fell away were not doing the above.

They were resisting the call of Jesus Christ.

They were not responding to God's invitation were they, Jari.

It is not as though God was failing them.

Their lamps had gone out, extinguished.

David i dont see how this is any answer to Heb 6. I made my points why i think like i do and it remains unanswered to me.
If you were right you should be able to explain whole verses and not just taking superficial approach of guessing what it means over simple phrase "fall away".
it must be explained throughtly what the writer meant or otherwise you probably have false conclusion. I have given you my interpreation of the whole verses already.

Eric E Stahl · Jan 25, 2012

David777 said:
Eric E Stahl you declared;

We can not do anything to not be owned by Jesus.

Well, why is the New Testament so rich with warnings?

If disconnection is impossible, why bother telling Christians to make their election more sure?

I just do not understand the New Testament at all from your perspective.

1 Corinthians 10:23 Sin is still against God's will but our sins are already forgiven.
1 Corinthians 11:29-32 A Christian who lives in sin will be chastened while on earth, some with illness and some with death of the body.

David777 · Jan 25, 2012

Dear Eric E Stahl

This was contained in your post;

1 Corinthians 10:23 Sin is still against God's will but our sins are already forgiven.
1 Corinthians 11:29-32 A Christian who lives in sin will be chastened while on earth, some with illness and some with death of the body.

How does what you said match the following verse;

Hebrews 10

26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.

Eric E Stahl · Jan 27, 2012

Sure Salvation

David777
Read a little farther Hebrews 10:26-30 it indicates that it is God's children that are spanked because they knew better but sinned anyway. That is why some Christians are weak and sickly and many sleep.

jari · Jan 27, 2012

wilful sin must mean deliberate sinning when normally when we sin we dont sin just to sin. but we sin because we do something that results in sin.

wilful sin must be rebellious kind of sinning and sinning for the sole reason of damaging your relationship with Christ...

Brother Mike · Jan 27, 2012

I read it as this

I read it as this........ If we Sin "one sin" willfully after coming to the knowledge of the truth.

Certainly we have all done things we knew we should not do, violating our conscience and not doing something in faith, knowing full well it might not be right.

Then the question of Coming to the knowledge of the truth, because I learn new things everyday.

Jesus is Lord.

Eric E Stahl · Jan 27, 2012

Speeding is sinning

To the people with out eternal security,

If a Christian dies in a car accident because they where driving over the speed limit do you believe they will go to hell?

gdemoss · Jan 27, 2012

Eric E Stahl said:
To the people with out eternal security,

If a Christian dies in a car accident because they where driving over the speed limit do you believe they will go to hell?

It isn't that cut and dry. The question of eternal damnation for sin (acts of unbelief) lies in the judgment of Jesus Christ himself. While Hebrews 6 & 10, 1 Corinthians 3 & 6, Romans 3, along with Galatians 5 among other texts, give good evidence to formulate an understanding of just exactly what types of people will not inherit eternal life, a definitive answer can not be drawn outside of hearing from the righteous judge himself. I do not suggest that you go about purposely or arbitrarily breaking the law to find out.

In Jesus Name,

Gary

Eric E Stahl · Jan 27, 2012

gdemoss said:
It isn't that cut and dry. The question of eternal damnation for sin (acts of unbelief) lies in the judgment of Jesus Christ himself. While Hebrews 6 & 10, 1 Corinthians 3 & 6, Romans 3, along with Galatians 5 among other texts, give good evidence to formulate an understanding of just exactly what types of people will not inherit eternal life, a definitive answer can not be drawn outside of hearing from the righteous judge himself. I do not suggest that you go about purposely or arbitrarily breaking the law to find out.

In Jesus Name,

Gary

gdemoss · Jan 27, 2012

Eric E Stahl said:
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I am one of the forgiven people who have asked Jesus to come into my

heart and forgive my sins. I am blessed because God has imputed Jesus

righteousness to me and will no longer impute sin to me. I wish you

could have the same security. We will both go to heaven but I will sleep

better between now and then!

There is no sense in explaining the conditions required to receive the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ as you have already read and rejected the scriptures that explain how salvation works. You will continue on the path you are headed and will discover your error at the judgment seat of Christ. As it stands, either one or both of us in our current condition will not inherit the kingdom of heaven. That fact is revealed in Galatians 5 under works of the flesh, heresy. We disagree on the requirements of salvation but yet you seem to think we are both going to make it, which goes against what scripture says about heretics. Doctrine is a serious matter with God and he rejects all who live according to false beliefs as heresy always lends itself to allowing the believer to continue in his sin without regeneration.

I pray the Lord God will bless you with all spiritual blessings and understanding of his will for you and give you the strength to fulfill all his will.

Gary

Brother Mike · Jan 27, 2012

Let's be nice.

Eric E Stahl

wish you

could have the same security. We will both go to heaven but I will sleep better between now and then!

As Opposed to gdemoss who will not sleep well because he does not believe like you do?

gdemoss

and rejected the scriptures that explain how salvation works. You will continue on the path you are headed and will discover your error at the judgment seat of Christ.

And Eric E Stahl has been rejecting those scriptures which is going to put him in some hot water at the judgment seat.

I hope both of you are not under some kind of illusion that everything you post here will be received without question and joyfulness?

You both do realize we have posters from all over the globe with many different ideas and belief's by what they see in the Word?

I certainly know lots of my post will scrutinized and criticized Simply because I am in the Word of Faith Camp. Kenneth Copeland, and the bunch. I am certainly not at all shocked if someone screams Hersey at me.

Good.

You both have personally stabbed one another. I know gruesome, but true.

There is a way to go about this without personally attacking someone, I know when talking about God, it's easy to get upset, and have a righteous indignation against someone that just does not believe like you do. However, upset is no indication of a personal attack.

If you watch how Jiggfly does it, or I do it, lots of times we post the scripture and put it in the form of a question.

I'll use this thread for an example.

either one or both of us in our current condition will not inherit the kingdom of heaven.

"Hey Brother, I was pretty sure you used the KJV, mine says Kingdom of God in Gal and Jesus said the Kingdom of God abides in you. You can't inherit something inside you right? Heaven is a place right? Would you mind sharing what translation you used for quoting that?"

I already know it says Kingdom of God, I already know gdemoss used the KJV. I already know he misquoted.

But I did not have to personally attack him, I now wait to see how he is going to explain this.

I did not tell anyone they are going to get judged, or they ignore God's word, or they refuse the truth. No personal attacks!!!!

That's the rules............

BTW, I don't need any explanation for Kingdom of God or Heaven, I just used that as an example.

Jesus is Lord.

David777 · Jan 27, 2012

Hello all.

Hello Eric, I will quote what you said and the passages you quoted.

Then you can explain your statement and your remark?

Now this is what you said,

Read a little farther Hebrews 10:26-30 it indicates that it is God's children
that are spanked because they knew better but sinned anyway.
That is why some Christians are weak and sickly and many sleep.

Now, here are the verses you quoted.

Hebrews 10:26-30

For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth,
there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation
of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.

Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony
of two or three witnesses.

Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy
who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant
by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?

For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord.
And again, “The Lord will judge His people.”

gdemoss · Jan 27, 2012

Mike, in the end I will probably end up being banned from the boards because people like you think that I am attacking someone in my posts when I am not. I am not doing anything that Jesus himself didn't do when speaking to others. He is my example to walk by. I do understand that I can form things as a question in order to teach someone something and there is a time and place for that. Jesus had no problem speaking right in front of the Pharisees saying that they were not going to make it in there present condition. He told the Scribes and the Lawyers the truth about their condition as well.

When someone speaks to me, I reply back with the truth for their benefit. Some save with fear pulling them out of the fire and on others have compassion making the difference. While it may be true that I can get confused about which to apply when, I am going to apply one or the other to those who err in sin that need to repent. If that isn't welcome here at Talk Jesus, then Jesus himself is not welcome. Christianity is about love, a love that convicts others so that they do not cause themselves to perish. Because Peace Seeker loved me enough to show me the error of my understanding, I recovered myself out of a snare and repented of my err.

We need to be careful when reading words displayed on a screen. It is too easy to impute emotion unto words falsely. Paul was weeping many times he wrote unto others but if he had not said so it would have been easy to assign other emotions to the writings. I have a passion against the heresy of Eternal Security because it is killing so many believers through deceit just as it used to have me. But many continue on being deceived and deceiving others with lies in hypocrisy. Real souls are at stake and some will spend an eternity being tormented day and night. Their blood will not be on my head. As a moderator of a forum that claims to be a church, you sit in a very difficult place judging the people. Remember that Jesus said that the leadership of the Church wouldn't be like Gentile government who lord over them but instead are true leaders and examples unto the flock which they oversee. In the end it is each of us as individuals that will stand before the judgment seat,and give an account of ourselves, and receive for what we have done in the body whether bad or good.

Let us not forget the Word of God, that it tells us that we are to reject heretics, rebuke those who sin against us and few other uncomfortable things that aren't welcomed by the modern church. I would absolutely love to talk with you by phone sometime so that I could hear your words as they proceed out of your mouth. To catch the inflection of your tone of voice. That you might also better understand who I am in Christ. Jesus once said that if he had not come and spoke that they would not have sin, but now they have no cloak for their sin. I say this in regards to Eternal Security, the cloak for sin.

In Jesus Name,

Gary

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