Eternal Security

jari · Jan 28, 2012

gdemoss said:
as you have already read and rejected the scriptures that explain how salvation works.

I must say this is very hypocritical statement... your arguing that even though bible says that who believes will be saved it isnt that simple.

And your telling others that they reject what bible says when your self have rejected that bible says who believes will be saved and your claiming this is not the whole truth as if it would be no truth at all that faith alone saves.

So Gary Bible says faith saves, you say faith isnt enough......

why then accuse others of rejecting bible when your doing the same thing?

not trying to be rude but ur claim of others rejecting truth was not reasonable as i know theres lot of scriptures that contradict your point of view if you ask me. and that's why we shouldnt say some one is rejecting scripture unless he admits so.

Brother Mike · Jan 28, 2012

Oh my.........

I have a P.M for you Brother Jari.......

Jesus Is Lord.

Eric E Stahl · Jan 28, 2012

David777,

<style>  </style> Read a little farther. Hebrews 10:28-30 indicates that it is God's children that are spanked because they knew better but sinned anyway. That is why some Christians are weak and sickly and many sleep.

gdemoss · Jan 28, 2012

jari said:
I must say this is very hypocritical statement... your arguing that even though bible says that who believes will be saved it isnt that simple.

And your telling others that they reject what bible says when your self have rejected that bible says who believes will be saved and your claiming this is not the whole truth as if it would be no truth at all that faith alone saves.

So Gary Bible says faith saves, you say faith isnt enough......

why then accuse others of rejecting bible when your doing the same thing?

not trying to be rude but ur claim of others rejecting truth was not reasonable as i know theres lot of scriptures that contradict your point of view if you ask me. and that's why we shouldnt say some one is rejecting scripture unless he admits so.

Jari, I understand why you say what you do. I implore you to consider Romans chapter 4 that speaks about the faith of Abraham, that it is a saving faith and ours must be like his in order to save us. Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness, then all his works that followed were based upon the fact that he actually believed what God said. The scripture goes to great lengths to explain why his works were what they were. I dare say that if Abraham would not have shown up on the mountain with Isaac, he would not have had a saving faith. Same goes with us, it is that simple. Our faith must be justified by our works or it is worthless to gain entrance into Gods Kingdom. Romans chapter 6 states that we can have dominion over sin and walk in righteousness as a slave to it instead. Those who believe what God has said through Paul there will have works that agree. Those whose works do not agree are abiding in unbelief and stand to be condemned.

May the Lord bless you with all the knowledge, wisdom and spiritual understanding that you need.

Gary

David777 · Jan 28, 2012

Hello Eric.

I was under the impression that Hebrews 10:26-30 was
not about "spanking". More so about the consequences
of apostasy.

Eric E Stahl · Jan 28, 2012

David777 said:
I was under the impression that Hebrews 10:26-30 was
not about "spanking". More so about the consequences
of apostasy.

Read Hebrews 10:30 and notice the judgment is on God's children.

1Corinthians 3:15 Our rewards can be lost by sinning but we will be saved.

David777 · Jan 28, 2012

Hello again Eric.

Here is the verse;

Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy
who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant
by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?

Sure looks as though the person in question is denying Christ.

"trampled the son of God underfoot"

Is this not rejection Eric?

jari · Jan 29, 2012

gdemoss said:
Jari, I understand why you say what you do. I implore you to consider Romans chapter 4 that speaks about the faith of Abraham, that it is a saving faith and ours must be like his in order to save us. Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness, then all his works that followed were based upon the fact that he actually believed what God said.

absolutely.

gdemoss said:
Same goes with us, it is that simple. Our faith must be justified by our works or it is worthless to gain entrance into Gods Kingdom.

I dont agree. if you have faith it doesnt have to be justified. Howevre works may justify us by increasing our faith like it did for abrahman. "...., and by works was faith made perfect?" - Jas 2:22.

gdemoss said:
Romans chapter 6 states that we can have dominion over sin and walk in righteousness as a slave to it instead.

I disagree... rom 6 tells were not perfect and that even Paul sins.

gdemoss said:
Those who believe what God has said through Paul there will have works that agree. Those whose works do not agree are abiding in unbelief and stand to be condemned.

well that maybe but some one may also be deceived by doing works thinking he has faith when he has none.
thats where trying to justify your self with works may lead. replacing faith with works.

Eric E Stahl · Jan 29, 2012

To David777,

<style>  </style> Read a little farther. Hebrews 10:28-30 indicates that it is God's children

that are spanked because they knew better but sinned anyway. That is why

some Christians are weak and sickly and many sleep.

gdemoss · Jan 29, 2012

jari said:
I disagree... rom 6 tells were not perfect and that even Paul sins.

Jari, I need you to help me with this one. Where does Romans 6 tell us that were not perfect and that Paul sins?

well that maybe but some one may also be deceived by doing works thinking he has faith when he has none.
thats where trying to justify your self with works may lead. replacing faith with works.

I must say that I do agree with you here about the fact that someone may mistakenly believe that their works can save them and do works that are not due to true faith. I don't work to justify myself with works. My works justify my faith. My works scream out that I believe what God has said and therefore I shall receive even as father Abraham.

Gary

David777 · Jan 30, 2012

In reply Eric.

Topic: Hebrews 10:26-30

The problem with viewing these passages in the light of
say 1 Corinthians 3:15 is that the author of Hebrews is
not discussing the same subject as Paul is.

Here is a specific passage concerning the judgement of God on the
works that a Christian lays on the foundation of Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 3:15 (NKJV)

If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

This simply means a believer's works were unsatisfactory, yes still saved.

That is what the line means, no debate here, Eric.

Now a comparison with a line in the verses in question in Hebrews.

Hebrews 10:27

but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.

I would like to draw your attention to the last word "adversary"

Meaning of adversary: opponent, enemy.

You can spot the difference immediately, the latter is not a believer, Eric, but an enemy.

This does not mean a believer, it is the opposite, an apostate, blasphemer of the Holy Spirit!

Someone who rejects Jesus and has "trampled under foot Jesus"

I wonder how you render Hebrews 10:27, Eric?

jari · Jan 30, 2012

gdemoss said:
Jari, I need you to help me with this one. Where does Romans 6 tell us that were not perfect and that Paul sins?

oh sorry i meant chapter 7. and the paul tells were never perfect like he wanst either.

gdemoss · Jan 30, 2012

jari said:
oh sorry i meant chapter 7. and the paul tells were never perfect like he wanst either.

I thought you might have meant chapter 7. In that case I beg of you to consider the context of chapter 7 within the whole letter as Paul is leading you to a life in the spirit and chapter 7 is only part of the journey.

Here is a breakdown of the progression of thought through the chapters of the letter.

Greeting and opening remarks condemning Gentiles who did not regard God at all.
Addresses the condemnation of Gentiles who did regard God and thought they were good compared to other Gentiles.
Addresses the Jews and their iniquity. To do so Paul uses the law (OT scriptures).
Using Abraham, Paul begins to address two issues: difference between flesh/spirit controlling works and lack of difference between Jew and Gentile belivers
Addresses the atonement and justification through the blood of Christ.
Addresses the fact of sin that remains after one comes to believe, stating that it must be overcome or the believer will not have eternal life.
Addresses both Jews becoming dead to the law and alive unto Christ as well as the issue of still living in our carnal bodies where sin dwells seeking to have dominion.
Addresses how living in the spirit gives a man dominion/victory over sin: he overcomes.
Looks at Israel to give believers a warning as to what can happen if they repeat the same mistakes.
continues thought from 9.
continues thought from 9&10
Instruction on walking in the Spirit
continues thought from previous.
continues thought from previous.
continues thought from previous.
ending salutations.

The epistle to the Romans is clearly designed to help one come to life in the spirit of Christ through living out the anointing we receive upon believing the gospel. The danger of taking a verse such as 8:1 out and looking at it alone is that you loose the train of thought that lead up to its mention.

Just like Romans 8:28. A man may have cancer and a well meaning friend comes to him and say "You love God right? Well then we know that this is working out for your good." the man feels somewhat better and hopeful because he believes he loves God. Unfortunately, in many cases, the person only thinks that they love God because the 'feel' like they do but they deny him in works/deeds and aren't living in the spirit. They eat of the bread of life in an unworthy manner and become one of them who are weak and sickly among us and those who sleep. It isn't working out for their good but rather to their condemnation. Illness, in many but not all cases, can be a wake up call to righteousness in the life of the believer.

Praying that God will help you see the truth of his word,

Gary

jari · Jan 31, 2012

Hi Gary

gdemoss said:
Addresses the fact of sin that remains after one comes to believe, stating that it must be overcome or the believer will not have eternal life.

i dont recall rom 6 saying you may not have eternal life if? can you post verse to support this from rom 6?

gdemoss said:
Addresses both Jews becoming dead to the law and alive unto Christ as well as the issue of still living in our carnal bodies where sin dwells seeking to have dominion.

No Paul was saying he sins - not that he stopped sinning. He declared he serves God in spirit but flesh in sin.

Rom 7:21-25 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

evil still with Paul

(22) For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

inward man = spiritual man

(23) But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

sin still causing trouple

(24) O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

as long as were in body we have the issue

(25) I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Paul says that he THEN serves with mind God and with flesh sin.

Also paul states he has desire of christian to serve God but no power to do it:

Rom 7:15-17 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

Then he's saying because he does not what he wants to do its not him doing it anymore but the sin that dwells in him:

(16) If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. (17) Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

because sin could only condem us if we were under its not problem anymore because we are not under the law:

Rom 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

The whole point in rom 7 is that we delievered from the law. so when flesh sins its just flesh sinning and not us because we are dead with Christ and thefore dead to law:

Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

God bless

gdemoss · Jan 31, 2012

jari said:
i dont recall rom 6 saying you may not have eternal life if? can you post verse to support this from rom 6?

16Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? 17But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 18Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. 19I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

20For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. 21What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. 22But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. 23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

It is clearly spelled out. Continuing in sin = death. Following after righteousness (walking as Christ walked) is eternal life.

No Paul was saying he sins - not that he stopped sinning. He declared he serves God in spirit but flesh in sin.

Rom 7:21-25 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

evil still with Paul

(22) For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

inward man = spiritual man

(23) But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

sin still causing trouple

(24) O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

as long as were in body we have the issue

(25) I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Paul says that he THEN serves with mind God and with flesh sin.

Also paul states he has desire of christian to serve God but no power to do it:

Rom 7:15-17 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

Then he's saying because he does not what he wants to do its not him doing it anymore but the sin that dwells in him:

(16) If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. (17) Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

because sin could only condem us if we were under its not problem anymore because we are not under the law:

Rom 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

The whole point in rom 7 is that we delievered from the law. so when flesh sins its just flesh sinning and not us because we are dead with Christ and thefore dead to law:

Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

God bless

Let try this again. We have a body which is our flesh. Inside our body sin dwells and wants desperately to manifest itself into the world so in this 'evil is present with us'. It does not mean we have to let it get out. Paul is emphatically stating that he cannot, through the flesh, control the flesh and if he tries it will only end up in sin. This is why he states that with the mind he serves Christ in his spirit and with the flesh the law of sin unto death. What this means is that anything a person does through their flesh alone will end in sin but they can, through the spirit, mortify the deeds of the flesh and live without sin. Therefore, the righteousness which is in the law will be fulfilled in them as they walk by the spirit and not the flesh.

Paul puts it clear again in Galatians 5. "16This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would."

If your still sinning it is not because you have no power over sin, it is because your not living in the spirit mortifying the deeds of the flesh. Unfortunately the end of those things is death, not eternal life.

Gary

David777 · Jan 31, 2012

What is going on here?

I am trying to discuss with Eric the subject of the thread.

Alas, there appears to be theological noise occurring which may not
be related to the topic of the thread.

Perhaps, a moderator could intervene and restore some order.

Hello Eric, I need your reply to my post so that I can understand how you correlate these verses.

gdemoss · Jan 31, 2012

David777 said:
I am trying to discuss with Eric the subject of the thread.

Alas, there appears to be theological noise occurring which may not
be related to the topic of the thread.

Perhaps, a moderator could intervene and restore some order.

Hello Eric, I need your reply to my post so that I can understand how you correlate these verses.

The subject is Eternal Security. Jari and I are discussing the topic as well. What part are you accusing of being 'theological noise'? Everything that I have posted is either directly related to or a building block of proving the topic to be a false doctrine. How is what we are discussing prohibiting Eric from responding to you as you wish he would?

Gary

jari · Feb 1, 2012

Hi Gary

gdemoss said:
16Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? 17But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 18Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. 19I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

20For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. 21What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. 22But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. 23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

It is clearly spelled out. Continuing in sin = death. Following after righteousness (walking as Christ walked) is eternal life.

Paul was saying that you have become thus. Not that you made your self such and need to continue in order to be saved.
he also says eternal life is gift of God found in Jesus.

sin causes spiritual death but the gift of God is eternal life. So even you'd sin that doesnt make you unsaved because Jesus made us free from sin in the first place by His crucifiction and resurrection.

gdemoss said:
Let try this again. We have a body which is our flesh. Inside our body sin dwells and wants desperately to manifest itself into the world so in this 'evil is present with us'. It does not mean we have to let it get out. Paul is emphatically stating that he cannot, through the flesh, control the flesh and if he tries it will only end up in sin. This is why he states that with the mind he serves Christ in his spirit and with the flesh the law of sin unto death. What this means is that anything a person does through their flesh alone will end in sin but they can, through the spirit, mortify the deeds of the flesh and live without sin. Therefore, the righteousness which is in the law will be fulfilled in them as they walk by the spirit and not the flesh.

Paul puts it clear again in Galatians 5. "16This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would."

If your still sinning it is not because you have no power over sin, it is because your not living in the spirit mortifying the deeds of the flesh. Unfortunately the end of those things is death, not eternal life.

"sin unto death" - this is something you added (from rom 5) and Paul did not say it in rom 7.
i understand you think that way but Ibelieve paul was telling us its not critical to stop sinning as in be perfect. But contrary he was saying that he too sins in flesh. But that does not matter as he serves God in spirit.
sin does not kill us as long as we are in spirit. sin however may stop us being in spirit. so we resist sin but being in spirit is what matters in the end when serving God and sin cant simply make us die.

You see adam and eve died of sin. we dont because Christ made us alive despite the sin. This is the gift of God.

every man if they wanted to be saved outside Christ would indeed have to become sinless . or would have never sinned in the first place but Bible says all have sinned. So thats why Jesus died for us that 1) we would be forgiven. 2) we would be quicken (made alive) in spirit by His grace alone.

Eric E Stahl · Feb 1, 2012

always saved

David777 said:
Topic: Hebrews 10:26-30

The problem with viewing these passages in the light of
say 1 Corinthians 3:15 is that the author of Hebrews is
not discussing the same subject as Paul is.

Here is a specific passage concerning the judgement of God on the
works that a Christian lays on the foundation of Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 3:15 (NKJV)

If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

This simply means a believer's works were unsatisfactory, yes still saved.

That is what the line means, no debate here, Eric.

Now a comparison with a line in the verses in question in Hebrews.

Hebrews 10:27

but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.

I would like to draw your attention to the last word "adversary"

Meaning of adversary: opponent, enemy.

You can spot the difference immediately, the latter is not a believer, Eric, but an enemy.

This does not mean a believer, it is the opposite, an apostate, blasphemer of the Holy Spirit!

Someone who rejects Jesus and has "trampled under foot Jesus"

I wonder how you render Hebrews 10:27, Eric?

gdemoss · Feb 1, 2012

jari said:
Hi Gary

Paul was saying that you have become thus. Not that you made your self such and need to continue in order to be saved.
he also says eternal life is gift of God found in Jesus.

sin causes spiritual death but the gift of God is eternal life. So even you'd sin that doesnt make you unsaved because Jesus made us free from sin in the first place by His crucifiction and resurrection.

"sin unto death" - this is something you added (from rom 5) and Paul did not say it in rom 7.
i understand you think that way but Ibelieve paul was telling us its not critical to stop sinning as in be perfect. But contrary he was saying that he too sins in flesh. But that does not matter as he serves God in spirit.
sin does not kill us as long as we are in spirit. sin however may stop us being in spirit. so we resist sin but being in spirit is what matters in the end when serving God and sin cant simply make us die.

You see adam and eve died of sin. we dont because Christ made us alive despite the sin. This is the gift of God.

every man if they wanted to be saved outside Christ would indeed have to become sinless . or would have never sinned in the first place but Bible says all have sinned. So thats why Jesus died for us that 1) we would be forgiven. 2) we would be quicken (made alive) in spirit by His grace alone.

Unless I can convince someone that they need to stop sinning, they will never know the truth. Sin is a veil upon the heart that keeps a man from having the truth revealed to him by God. I will never be able to reason with someone about the truth if God will not allow them to know it. Righteousness = Revelation. So shall every man show up to defend himself upon that day and be judged Jesus' words. As he told others "Go and sin no more", yet a man will tell me he cannot stop sinning but is safe in Jesus. How shall this man stand before Christ and say "I couldn't stop" when Christ has said, "go and sin no more?". We need John the Baptist to come and turn the hearts of the children to the fathers all over again.

Peace be on you Jari,

Gary

Welcome!

Eternal Security

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Members Online

Trending content

Newest members

Community Stats