Eternal Security

[Eric E Stahl]

Liberty in Christ

Think about this Galations 5:1 After a person is saved they are free from the penalty of spiritual death. Their flesh will be charged with the sin and be chastised.

Galations 5:4 If you teach that you can lose your salvation, you make Christ of no effect.

Galations 5:10 Paul warns that you will be judged for teaching that a person who was saved can be lost.

Be careful.

 

[David777]

Hello Eric.

Eric please read the following verses very carefully.


1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free,
and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage.


2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.


3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law.


4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.


5 For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.


6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.



(Galations 5:1-6)


Notice the red statement above Eric.


Anyone who believes in OSAS should read the red line above.


This is beyond debate, a person can resist the Holy Spirit and fall from Grace. This is not what I say, this is what Paul says.


Your problem is with the theological construction of OSAS.


Not with me.

 

[jari]

Hi Gary

Sin is a veil upon the heart that keeps a man from having the truth revealed to him by God.

I don't believe this is true at all. bible no where states this.

not saying repentance isnt important even for that reason, but then again bible never states that you must repent in order to see... or else as if you wouldnt be forgiven.

So shall every man show up to defend himself upon that day and be judged Jesus' words.

i believe we are judged by God's word but saved by grace alone.

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

if we have to answer for our perfectness at the day of judgement id call it self-rightneusness and i think only Jesus would be able to pass the standard set. As none of us are never perfect and thats why we need Jesus as our savior as we cannot come out perfect according to God's standard of perfection ever in this life time.

As he told others "Go and sin no more", yet a man will tell me he cannot stop sinning but is safe in Jesus.

Jesus said He wont condemn, Go and sin no more. But he didnt say and if i see you next time ill judge you then did He ? No the reason was the effect of sin it self why we are not to sin.

We need John the Baptist to come and turn the hearts of the children to the fathers all over again.

John babtist was old testament prophet who came before Jesus. John's mission was different than of Jesus and new coveant ministers.

 

[jari]

Hi David

This is beyond debate, a person can resist the Holy Spirit and fall from Grace. This is not what I say, this is what Paul says.


Your problem is with the theological construction of OSAS.

why so critical about term fall from grace?

its quite bold assumption that it would mean fall from "saved status".

as grace can be seen as benefit of believer as it includes blessing.

i doupt Paul meant they had lost salvation. in any case its not said same would be possible for born again Christian.

 

[David777]

Hello Jari.

Jari, i have made no assumption.

Read the line for yourself, it says "fallen from grace".

This is what is written, not my idea or assumption.

4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

Concentrate on the line and forget what you think it might mean because of your assumption.

I am simply stating what the line says, no manipulation.

 

[jari]

Jari, i have made no assumption.

Read the line for yourself, it says "fallen from grace".

This is what is written, not my idea or assumption.

4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

Concentrate on the line and forget what you think it might mean because of your assumption.

I am simply stating what the line says, no manipulation.

but its not saying what you claim it to say.

its simply saying you have fallen from grace, its not explained what does this phrase mean?

and if we take it literally then we cant say it means losing salvation.

 

[Miss Elly]

I would not call someone who believes in eternal security doctrine a heretic, nor someone who does not. Work out your own salvation brothers and sisters.

A person who is safe and secure in the arms of God, is safe and secure in the arms of God. They know that God is with them if and when they mess up. Because they love Jesus and don't want to displease Him. If they do sin, the Holy Spirit will reprove them and they will either repent or not. If they are committed to God, they will repent.

I grew up in a Pentecostal church where just about everything was a sin. I went nearly every Sunday to "get saved" again. When Jesus found me, He sent me to a Spirit Filled Baptist Church to straighten out my thinking and help me to understand I could live a christian life with the help of Jesus. My old pastor said, well I see you are going to that "eternal security" church now, that Pastor is in error. I said you don't even know him, but I do and he is full of the spirit of God. Maybe he is eternally secure because he plans on serving the Lord all the days of his life here. My old Pastor did not say a word. The blood of Christ covers all of our sin, as we need forgiveness, he forgives if and when we ask Him. So I believe in eternal security to some extent, but I would not want to tempt the spirit of God by rebelling against Him like the children of Israel did. The knew God, but they did not want to walk in His ways. I think it puts daggers in God's heart when we christians argue about these two doctrines, I really do. God bless you all.

 

[David777]

Hello Jari.

Now Jari, you have made some revealing statements.

Here is the line, Galatians 5:4

You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law;
you have fallen from grace.

This was your reply, "but its not saying what you claim it to say."

I have made no claim Jari, I just read the line, it means what it says.
Why do you say that I have made a claim. I never made a claim.

Then, you said "you have fallen from grace, its not explained what does this phrase mean?"

You Jari will not accept the literal rendering. You Jari will alter this line and imply another meaning.
This is what you do Jari, you apply a different meaning to a line that is very simple and straight forward.

Then, after Paul writes "you have fallen from grace",
then Jari says "we cant say it means losing salvation"

Jari, you have refuted yourself, I have not done this to you.
You did to yourself. You are contradictory.

 

[David777]

Waiting....

Hello Jari, still waiting for your reply.

 

[jari]

Then, after Paul writes "you have fallen from grace",
then Jari says "we cant say it means losing salvation"

i still dont see the problem here.

like i said you assume fall from grace equals loosing salvation.

 

[David777]

In reply Jari.

It might be advisable at this point to look at Galations 5:4, and how the translation is handled by other Bibles.

Jari, read the line in each translation;

English Standard Version (©2001)
You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.


New American Standard Bible (©1995)
You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.


King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.


International Standard Version (©2008)
Those of you who are trying to be justified by the law have been cut off from the Messiah. You have fallen away from grace.


Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
You have been destroyed from The Messiah, those of you who are justified by that in The Written Law, and you have fallen from grace.


GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Those of you who try to earn God's approval by obeying his laws have been cut off from Christ. You have fallen out of God's favor.


King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; you are fallen from grace.


American King James Version
Christ is become of no effect to you, whoever of you are justified by the law; you are fallen from grace.


American Standard Version
Ye are severed from Christ, ye would be justified by the law; ye are fallen away from grace.


Douay-Rheims Bible
You are made void of Christ, you who are justified in the law: you are fallen from grace.


Darby Bible Translation
Ye are deprived of all profit from the Christ as separated from him, as many as are justified by law; ye have fallen from grace.


English Revised Version
Ye are severed from Christ, ye who would be justified by the law; ye are fallen away from grace.


Webster's Bible Translation
Christ is become of no effect to you, whoever of you are justified by the law; ye have fallen from grace.

Weymouth New Testament
Christ has become nothing to any of you who are seeking acceptance with God through the Law: you have fallen away from grace.

World English Bible
You are alienated from Christ, you who desire to be justified by the law. You have fallen away from grace.

Young's Literal Translation
ye were freed from the Christ, ye who in law are declared righteous; from the grace ye fell away;


There can be no doubt, severed, alienated, from Christ.



The scripture cannot be broken, the fault rests with your theology.


Fallen from grace = lost salvation.

 

[jari]

There can be no doubt, severed, alienated, from Christ.

yes i have no doupt it says that but this is the problem with many christians that they have ceased to trust in Grace and try to justify them self through works of law.
now, when they try this do we say they are not saved anymore?
i think their relationship may not be growing as they have fallen from grace because Christ has become "none effect" to them.

so it certainly is an error but how does God look at you at this time? Can you say for certain people loose salvation by not fully trusting God's grace?
i think that's something God decides but we may be alianated from Christ so we have to come back through grace. still its not in any way clear to me that person would cease to be God's child if he believes like galatians did..

i think that depends entirely on how you look at salvation in the first place.

 

[David777]

My brother in Christ.

yes i have no doupt it says that but this is the problem with many christians that they have ceased to trust in Grace and try to justify them self through works of law.
now, when they try this do we say they are not saved anymore?
i think their relationship may not be growing as they have fallen from grace because Christ has become "none effect" to them.

so it certainly is an error but how does God look at you at this time? Can you say for certain people loose salvation by not fully trusting God's grace?
i think that's something God decides but we may be alianated from Christ so we have to come back through grace. still its not in any way clear to me that person would cease to be God's child if he believes like galatians did..

i think that depends entirely on how you look at salvation in the first place.

Galatians 5:14

Ye are severed from Christ, ye would be justified by the law; ye are fallen away from grace.

From Christ back to the law results in severance from Salvation.

Your opinion and my opinion are void. Theology is useless.

Not negotiable Jari.

Whether or not all or some of the Galatians returned to Christ is irrelevant.

You said, "yes i have no doubt it says that".

Then you contradict yourself, "still its not in any way clear to me that person would
cease to be God's child if he believes like galatians did.."

You must resolve this contradiction Jari, then post after you have thought it through.

 

[jari]

David I dont think your following me...
maybe i just cant explain it better.

Whether or not all or some of the Galatians returned to Christ is irrelevant.

Paul seemed to be confident in his letter that the issue was adressed.
it was small issue after all with big consequences.
because if salvation cant be lost then it cant be lost by going away from God.
which was basically what galatians did by falling from grace and going away from Christ.
which is bad for any christians relationship with God, to not trust His grace anymore.
of course they still had grace to some extent. so i dont know how can anyone say they've lost salvation? if they did why didnt Paul say so?
he only said they are gone away from grace and God.

 

[Eric E Stahl]

2 Thessalonian 3:14-15 When a christian strays from living as they should, we should stay away from them to shame them and cause them

to repent. But we are to consider them as a brother in sin rather than an enemy because they have not lost their salvation.

 

[David777]

Hello Jari.

Nice to receive a reply, thanks.

You would need to supply the scripture to support the following claim.

"Paul seemed to be confident in his letter that the issue was adressed.
it was small issue after all with big consequences."

It was my impression that Paul was deeply concerned.

Here is the scripture to support my statement above.

Galatians 6

11 See with what large letters I have written to you with my own hand!
12 As many as desire to make a good showing in the flesh, these would
compel you to be circumcised, only that they may not suffer persecution
for the cross of Christ.
13 For not even those who are circumcised keep the law, but they desire
to have you circumcised that they may boast in your flesh.
14 But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ,
by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.
15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything,
but a new creation.

I do not see the justification for your proposition above.

 

[David777]

Again Jari.

Further into your reply you stated this:

"because if salvation cant be lost then
it cant be lost by going away from God."

This your hypothesis Jari.

I have already stated,

Galatians 5:4

You have become estranged from Christ, you
who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

This is what is written. How can you then proceed to offer
the statement " if salvation cant be lost ".
You statement is a contradiction of Galatians 5:4.

I do not understand your logic Jari, this is a violation of the scripture.

 

[jari]

Nice to receive a reply, thanks.

You would need to supply the scripture to support the following claim.

"Paul seemed to be confident in his letter that the issue was adressed.
it was small issue after all with big consequences."

It was my impression that Paul was deeply concerned.

Here is the scripture to support my statement above.

Galatians 6

11 See with what large letters I have written to you with my own hand!
12 As many as desire to make a good showing in the flesh, these would
compel you to be circumcised, only that they may not suffer persecution
for the cross of Christ.
13 For not even those who are circumcised keep the law, but they desire
to have you circumcised that they may boast in your flesh.
14 But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ,
by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.
15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything,
but a new creation.

I do not see the justification for your proposition above.

Hi David. I believe its said in the last few verses:

Gal 6:17-18 From henceforth let no man trouble me: for I bear in my body the marks of the Lord Jesus. (18) Brethren, the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit. Amen. To the Galatians written from Rome.

Was paul saying if there's more trouple he doesnt care anymore? No he was very sure sounding that issue was solved and he told galations to know better in future to not cause him more trouple with such issues. he was like saying "learn from this so you wont do this (or this kind) error anymore"

 

[David777]

In reply.

Hello Jari, have enjoyed the dialogue over Galatians.

I do not think we can agree on the conclusion to Galatians.

There is no doubt Paul was deeply disturbed over this issue.

Paul had nothing but problems with the circumcision group.

It is unclear what the outcome was, there is no evidence either
way.

Nevertheless, returning to the law after becoming a Christian does result
in the termination of the contract. That much is clear.
I will leave you with this line from Galatians.

20 I would like to be present with you now and to change my tone;
for I have doubts about you.

Adios amigo.

 

[Kit Carson]

Matthew 18:21-22 Take it to heart, learn what Jesus is trying to teach you. To forgive many times. As many as it takes.

Jesus said, those who call upon my name are saved. God says, those who do so are a gift to Jesus. We now belong to Jesus.

Circumcision is a physical act, it was a way of the old way, to show honor and a sense of ownership to God. It also represented the covenant between God and man of that time. With the salvation presented by God though the death of Jesus and the new way of salvation, it became a non issue if you are circumcised or not. Those scriptures simply tell us it is what is in the heart that is important, not the fact the if you are circumcised you are saved by this act . But it also says if you so wish to do this, there is nothing wrong with it either.

Why do so many worry about salvation, why do so many worry about this.

It is because we as men doubt. We have our own way and cannot comprehend the forgiveness or the greatness of the death of Jesus and how absolutely true his words are.

I have no fear, I am saved and I am not perfect. I will never be perfect as I am a man. I have occasional doubts, they do become very rare, I slip up in small things and may use the Lords name in vain, so for sure I am not perfect. But I am getting there, I wish to be, even though I will never be, I do wish to be.

Guess what, Jesus knows this, he lived on earth, he experienced the life of a man. He became even more compassionate and wishful to save us all. He understands.

I say no person who with truth and understanding who does accept God and ask for forgiveness through Jesus can ever be thrown away. Gods word simply says it cannot be, Gods word would be held in contempt if such a thing did happen.

I am not speaking of one who pretends, or runs to God out of going through the motions and does not with all their heart ask for forgiveness, I speak of those who at the time they asked, were sincere.

So learn to forgive yourself........and smile and stop all this worry about such a thing.

Kit