Evidence For A PreTribulation Rapture

[Gracealone]

Gracealone,

I'm not wanting to debate you, I just want to show you something.

Let me rephrase my question.

What day does the wrath of God fall on?

The wrath of God is not consummated in just one day. It is poured out over a 7 year period total ,called the tribulation, and more so the last 3 1/2 years of that 7 year period.
Read Revelation 5- 22

 

[ElderPaul]

The wrath of God is not consummated in just one day. It is poured out over a 7 year period total ,called the tribulation, and more so the last 3 1/2 years of that 7 year period.
Read Revelation 5- 22

Again, you are using private interprretation. There is no place in the word of God that says what you just said. If it did say that, you would have gave references. The ONLY place that the word connects the tribulation period to the DAY of the Lord, is Joel 2:31, Matthew 24:29, and Rev 6:12-17.

Joel 2:31: "The sun will be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, BEFORE the great and terrible DAY [ day= singular ] of the Lord come".
[ Total darkness ]

Matthew 24:29, "Immediately AFTER the TRIBULATION of those DAYS
[ tribulation, more then ONE DAY ] shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, etc".
[ Total darkness ] Tribes mourn.

Rev 6:12, "And I beheld When he had OPENED the sixth seal, and, lo,there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;"
[ Total darkness ] People run to hide, verse 15, Why? Because the great DAY [ day= singular ] of his wrath is come, verse17.

You might not care what the prophet Joel had to say, and would rather stick to "left Behind', but that's what got the people of Israel into trouble when Jesus was born as the Messiah. They wouldn't listen to Jesus. Will you?

 

[ElderPaul]

Deacon, This is getting nasty. I will not debate with people like you. :secret::helppc::angry:

People like me? You started The Nasty. You said, "This isn't rocket science". Who were you throwing that at?

I think that you need to be smarter than a rocket scientist to understand God's word. Because they sure don't.

May God bless you with understanding of his word,
God bless

 

[Gracealone]

It is clear to me Sir, that you just like to attack people, I did give you Bible reference ,and you have ignored it.....Revelation 5:-22: This is Chapter 5- chapter 22, to clarify, not Rev.5:22
I never mentioned" Left behind" so there you are attacking me falsely.

I did not find Left Behind a valuable resource so never read it fully, I have read through Revelation, and Daniel, 1Thes.and others several times, and will again, and our Pastor is an anointed teacher.
My faith holds to the word of God, and rightly dividing the word of truth.
AS for my listening to Jesus?
He is the only one I listen to.

PS: IN fact Sir you asked me about the wrath of God, didnt you?

Your quote:


I'm not wanting to debate you, I just want to show you something.

Let me rephrase my question.

What day does the wrath of God fall on?

 

[ElderPaul]

Gracealone, I'm sorry that you felt like I was puting you down. Forgive me if it sounded that way.

Most people that I talk to have a thread in the back of their minds, and
I can't seem to get pass that thought.

Please forgive me if I offended you.

Please address the scriptures that I have given you.

"Holy Father, please forgive me, and please help me take any sarcastic remarks I might make out of my mind."

God bless

 

[Gracealone]

Truly Sir, I do forgive you, just as I need forgiven. I pray though that we would just fellowship, and love each other as brothers, and sisters in the Lord, and allow the Holy Spirit to do his own work.
He is able to grow me up, just as he is able to grow you up.
I wish we would leave the work of the Holy Spirit to the Holy Spirit.
I'm sure the world would be better effected by our example to just love each other, as the word says.....They shall know us by our Love.

I have read these scriptures many times, and love them.
They all fit into the complete tapestry of Gods plan.
One day soon, we will be with him, and then we will blessed with the like mindedness he so desires for us.

Even so Lord, Come soon......amen

 

[ElderPaul]

Gracealone, It is clear to me that you do not want to address the scriptures that I gave you, and that is fine with me.

I will tell you what they are saying, then I will leave you alone.

God is saying that the the DAY of the Lord Follows the TRIBULATION

Joel says that the DAY of the Lord CAN"T come untill the darkness of
Matthew 24:29. Therefore, the wrath that God pours out can't come untill the AFTER the tribulation. THEREFORE there will not be any of God's wrath during the tribulation. It will only be Satan's wrath, Rev 12:12.

May God bless you and I bid you, good day. Do not reply to this post unless you just like to get in the last word. I am through.

 

[Gracealone]

Gracealone, It is clear to me that you do not want to address the scriptures that I gave you, and that is fine with me.

I will tell you what they are saying, then I will leave you alone.

God is saying that the the DAY of the Lord Follows the TRIBULATION

Joel says that the DAY of the Lord CAN"T come untill the darkness of
Matthew 24:29. Therefore, the wrath that God pours out can't come untill the AFTER the tribulation. THEREFORE there will not be any of God's wrath during the tribulation. It will only be Satan's wrath, Rev 12:12.

May God bless you and I bid you, good day. Do not reply to this post unless you just like to get in the last word. I am through.

I am truly puzzled at your reply......You asked me to forgive, then this?

If you will look at the word just before this you will see it was when Satan was thrown out of heaven the first time. Not during the tribulation...starting with vrs :7.
Right now he is seeking whom he may devour because he does know his time is short.
I dont mind if you dont reply, but sir you are wrong in the attitude of my heart, so I guess there is nothing I can do about that, it is between you and the Lord.
I'm sorry.....:embarasse

 

[youngjohn]

The "day of the Lord" appears in several of the posts above. What do we know about that day?

In Malachi 4:5 (ESV) God says, "Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes." So before that day, Elijah will come again.

In Joel 2:30-31 (ESV) God says, "And I will show wonders in the heavens and on the earth, blood and fire and columns of smoke. [31] The sun shall be turned to darkness, and the moon to blood, before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes." This looks like the time Jesus mentioned in Matthew 24:29 (ESV) "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken." This will be before the rapture of verse 31.

The day of the Lord is always spoken of as a terrible time, a time of God's wrath.

Jeremiah 46:10 (ESV) says:
That day is the day of the Lord God of hosts,
a day of vengeance,
to avenge himself on his foes.
The sword shall devour and be sated
and drink its fill of their blood.
For the Lord God of hosts holds a sacrifice
in the north country by the river Euphrates.

So the day of the Lord is not the next thing to happen. The Great Tribulation must come first and Ellijah will return first.

John

 

[Gracealone]

So the day of the Lord is not the next thing to happen. The Great Tribulation must come first and Ellijah will return first.

Agree with you....during the tribulation it is believed that Elijah is one of the two witnesses of Rev.11:3 as he was taken ,and never saw death.

 

[Lion_of_Judah]

In Malachi 4:5 (ESV) God says, "Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes."

John

Brother John, I must thank you for finding & posting up this scripture reference.
I had forgot about it until I read your post.


Elijah and Enoch are the two individuals told to us in the word, who did not experience death, but were "taken".

And these two, I would submit, are the two Olive Trees in Zech 4:3,11,12 & Rev 11:3-13.
In Zech 4:14 we're told," These are the two who are anointed to serve the Lord of all the earth."
These two, also, are on the earth 1260 days.


More to follow

LoJ

 

[youngjohn]

Among believers there is uncertainty about the order of future predicted events. Here is a suggestion.

Isaiah 26:17 (ESV)
Like a pregnant woman
who writhes and cries out in her pangs
when she is near to giving birth,
so were we because of you, O Lord;
The Bible sometimes presents Israel in the GREAT TRIBULATION as pregnant.

Isaiah 26:19 (ESV)
Your dead shall live; their bodies shall rise.
You who dwell in the dust, awake and sing for joy!
For your dew is a dew of light,
and the earth will give birth to the dead.
This speaks of the RESURRECTION of the righteous.

Isaiah 26:20 (ESV)
Come, my people, enter your chambers,
and shut your doors behind you;
hide yourselves for a little while
until the fury has passed by.
This is the hiding of the saints in heaven by the RAPTURE

Isaiah 26:21 (ESV)
For behold, the Lord is coming out from his place
to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity,
and the earth will disclose the blood shed on it,
and will no more cover its slain.
This is the WRATH OF GOD poured out on unsaved on earth.

Isaiah 27:1 (ESV)
In that day the Lord with his hard and great and strong sword will punish Leviathan the fleeing serpent, Leviathan the twisting serpent, and he will slay the dragon that is in the sea.
This is the removal of SATAN from earth.

Isaiah 27:6 (ESV)
In days to come Jacob shall take root,
Israel shall blossom and put forth shoots
and fill the whole world with fruit.
This is the promised MILLLENNIUM.

John

 

[Gracealone]

Cool John! Thanks

Future prophesy is one of my favorite subjects.

It became so after the Lord blessed me with a vision of his coming back during the 6 day war of 1967.
Today I see the stage set, and ready, for the final curtain.....
Even so Lord, Come!

 

[Lion_of_Judah]

Then the end will come..but not before..

Mal. 4:5 ~ "See, I will send you the prophet Elijah before that great and dreadful day of the Lord comes."

1Thess.5:2 ~ "..the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night."

2Pt. 3:10 ~ "The day of the Lord will come like a thief."

Rev. 3:21 ~ "To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne."

1Cor. 6:2 ~ "Do you not know that the saints will judge the world"

Rev. 20:4 ~ "I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge."

Now consider:

Rev. 1:10 ~ On the Lord's day I was in the Spirit, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet, "Write on a scroll what you see.."

Here, John is on the island of Patmos.. earth, and in the Spirit.

Rev. 3:7-13 (condensed) ~ These are the words of him who is holy and true, who holds the key of David. What he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open. I know you have little strength, yet you have kept my word and have not denied my name. Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth. I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God, and I will also write on him my new name."

Just a note of observation.. the hour of testing. That's pretty short in the span of the ages'.

Matt. 25:10-12 ~ "The virgins who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet. And the door was shut.
Later the others also came.. 'Open the door for us?' But he replied, "I don't know you."

Rev. 4:1,2 ~ "After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, "come up here.." At once I was in the Spirit, and there before me was a throne in heaven.."

Here John is taken to the throne of God in heaven and is able to view it, because he is in the Spirit.


Now, this is very revealing and exciting!

Rev. 21:9 ~ One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, " Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb." And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God."



1st.. the angel is one who carries the seven bowls of the last plagues. And the bowls are Full !
They've not been poured out on the earth yet.
2nd.. the angel says to John I will show you the wife of the Lamb.
The bride and groom are united in marriage and together in the Holy City.


Is it me, or isn't it plain what we see here?

John is shown the church, called the wife.. in heaven, before any of the bowls of plagues are poured out.
Which tells us the church is not taken at the end of the tribulation. In fact in Rev.16:2 we read, "The first angel went and poured out his bowl
on the land, and ugly and painful sores broke out on the people who had the mark of the beast and worshiped his image."


At the very least, we can conclude that the church is raptured pre or mid tribulation. Not post.


LoJ

 

[ElderPaul]

You're right LOJ, John saw the bride in heaven, after the sixth seal, but before the bowls were
poured out. And you can see the sixth seal in Matthew 24:29. This after the tribulatuion of
those days.

God bless

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[ElderPaul]

The tribulation does not come as a thief in the night. We will be warned before hand by the covenant being made. Jesus even warns when the second half comes, "when you see the AOD spoken of by Daniel the prophet!!!! THEN FLEE!!!!

The DAY of the Lord, which comes AFTER the tribulation, comes as a thief in the night. No one knows the day, and hour. Why? because it doesn't come on day 1261.

 

[Lion_of_Judah]

You're right LOJ, John saw the bride in heaven, after the sixth seal, but before the bowls were
poured out. And you can see the sixth seal in Matthew 24:29. This after the tribulatuion of
those days.

God bless

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Thank you ElderPaul. I too, want to see and understand, what the Spirit reveals.


At the AoD of Antichrist, I think it's poignant of Jesus to make this point: "So when you see the abomination that causes desolation,- let the reader understand-then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains." Matt. 24:15,16

Israel, at this time, will have already been participating in the sacrifices in the newly built temple. And when the antichrist takes position in the holy of holies, Israel will recognize their messiah at last. Many will recall this scripture from Matt. 24:16 and do exactly that. Flee! If, at that time, the church is also raptured, how much more the testimony to their hearts.


Those new believers are warned about false prophets that will emerge at that time. And not to be deceived, but to watch for "the coming of the Son of Man as lightning." Matt. 24:27 And this is not the rapture.

Instead, it's the gathering of the elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matt. 24:31 Rev.19:14
This is, the great and terrible day of the Lord.


I will take up one point of difference and distinction in how we may look at the church..

When John is shown the bride, Rev. 21:9, by the angel holding the seven bowls of wrath, we have to ask ourselves a question:

Were any of the 7 seals opened or 7 trumpets sounded before the bride came to be with the Groom?
I know we can naturally think so, because we're talking about the angel with the bowls.

But that's just us thinking that way.. I think. I'm not seeing anything said or inferred that the previous seals or trumpets have sounded, or were opened.
In fact, to me it seems almost a bit odd.. the angel taking John over to see the bride..
I think if that angel were next, after the 6th seal had just been opened, he'd be more focused and attentive to the Fathers orders about pouring out the first bowl.


Some food for thought.


LoJ

 

[Gracealone]

Hello......

Am I to understand clearly that most of you here lean toward a pre-trib rapture? That during the tribulation we will be with the Lord ,in Heaven, to return with him at the end of the 7 year period to rule,and reign with him for 1000 years?
That the saints mentioned in Revelation are the tribulation saints,and not the church?

Just trying to clear up my boggled mind.
At 71 it gets confused sometimes, what people are saying....hope that's OK.

 

[ElderPaul]

Some believe that the church will be taken out before the tribulation, and some believe otherwise. I believe otherwise.

The trumpet judgements run parallel with the seals.

The darkness of the sixth seal announces the coming of the Lord at the end of the tribulation. This corresponds with Matthew 24:29

Rev 17:8, says that the beast will ascend out of the bottomless pit, and those whose names are not written in the book of life will wonder at the beast. The beast will have to come out of the bottomless pit sometime before the sixth seal, probably around the fifth seal.

In order for the beast to come out, the pit has to be unlocked, and it is not unlocked until the fifth trumpet. This will be at the mid point of the seven years.

The sixth seal will open, the seventh trumpet will sound, the church is raptured, the bowls are poured out, and Jesus destroys those who are destoying the earth, Rev 11:18, 19:11-21. Also, in 11:18, it is the time of the dead, and rewards are given to the servants of God. This takes place at the seventh trumpet, which is Paul's LAST trump.

God's DAY of the Lord's wrath is his destructive wrath, the bowls.
The trumpet judgements are warnings to the earth dwellers that the
end is coming.

God bless you Gracealone. I am 63, and looking forward to the return of Jesus, no matter what this old body has to go through.

"Do not fear him that can destroy the body, but fear him who can destroy both soul and body in the lake of fire."

 

[Johna]

Excuse the edit, I see I came in under my Son's name, so will go out and come back.
Sorry! LOL