Fallen is Babylon the Great

[Bill]

I am ridiculed and belittled quite often for the fact that Revelation is not in our canon (cf. Church of the East).


Maybe this is why I'm too serious.

And Peter answered him and said, Lord, if it be thou, bid me come unto thee on the water. And he said, Come. And when Peter was come down out of the ship, he walked on the water, to go to Jesus.​

(Matthew 14:28-29 KJV)

While the event of Peter stepping out on the water is recorded in chapter 14, and Jesus was "revealed as the Messiah" in Chapter 16, the text doesn't say when the Father revealed this to Peter.

And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.​

(Matthew 16:16-17 KJV)

Rhema

Dont you always tease me about missing your humor brother.

As far as trying to prove things in scripture. We can only go by how and when it was written versus jumping to conclusions.

 

[Rhema]

Dont you always tease me about missing your humor brother.

Hmm... not that I can recall.

As far as trying to prove things in scripture. We can only go by how and when it was written versus jumping to conclusions.

And yet the "when and how" are mostly leaps to conclusions.

God bless,
Rhema

 

[bowwow]

Basically I have come to believe that the USA is this mystery Babylon.

Babylon can only represent literal Babylon, confusion, or false religion. The USA and even the EU is NOT found in even one verse of end-time prophecy.

'Babylon the Great' simply means a large false religion. Mystery Babylon implies the hidden name of a false religion.

 

[Rhema]

'Babylon the Great' simply means a large false religion. Mystery Babylon implies the hidden name of a false religion.

And at the time it was written, wouldn't that have been Roman Paganism?

 

[bowwow]

And at the time it was written, wouldn't that have been Roman Paganism?

Rome was a problem at the time but there are many reasons why Rome doesn't apply to any of this. In Revelation 17 where Babylon the Great is mentioned, John is taken out into the desert to view the harlot's judgment. Mecca and Medina reside in the deserts of Saudi Arabia.

People try to say Rome is the city of seven hills but that's incorrect. Rome is NOT a city of 7 hills.

Revelation 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

Some translations use the word HILL. The text is the word 'oros' which is better translated 'mountain' NOT HILL. Rome does not sit on seven mountains! It doesn't even sit on seven hills! There are seven hills on the East side of the Tiber River. 'Vatican Hill' sits on the west side of the Tiber. THAT MAKES 8 HILLS TOTAL! AND! The word 'hills' is an incorrect translation. The 7 hills on the east side of the Tiber, are too small to be designated as 'mountains'. Strong's specifically states that a hill is lower than a mountain. Rome's seven hills are so small, typically between 200 to 500 feet, and appear as 'little nubs' when viewed from a distance.

The city of seven mountains is Jerusalem.

Here is a list of nations mentioned in Prophecy. Rome is absent.

List compiled by Walid Shoebat

Summary of nations addressed in end-times:
Psalm 83 - includes all, Syria and Iraq "Assyria", Jordan "Edom, Moab, Ammon", Arabia "Ishmaelites, Hagarites", Lebanon "People of Tyre" since Tyre was destroyed (Ezekiel 26). This was partly fulfilled in the Arab Israeli wars since these armies are a "confederacy" (v. 5), "consult together with one voice" (v. 3). All these are Muslim.

Ezekiel 30 - the nations of North Africa, including Egypt and Sudan in the time of the "Day of the Lord" - a clear reference to the end time destruction of Islamic nations.

Amos 1 - Syria (vs. 1-5), Gaza (v. 6), Lebanon (v. 9), Jordan "Teman" (v. 11), Iraq "Bozrah", Amman Jordan "Rabbah" (v. 14), "Gaza" (v. 6).

Amos 2 - Jordan "Moab"

Joel 3 - This is Armageddon (v. 2) which includes Egypt and Jordan (v. 19), Lebanon (v. 4). Why does Armageddon have Muslim nations by name?

Jeremiah 6 - Jeremiah speaks of Sheba (probably the area of modern Yemen.

Jeremiah 9 - Egypt, Edom, and Ammon

Jeremiah 25 - Moab

Jeremiah 48 - Moab and others.

Jeremiah 49-51 - The destruction of Babylonia, today's Arab world - Jordan, Syria "Damascus", Iraq "Bozrah", Saudi Arabia "Kedar", this includes past as well as a future outlook in end-times. Iran "Elam" (49 v. 37).

Obadiah 1 - "For the day of the LORD [is] near upon all the heathen" "Esau" "Edom" "Teman" - Jordan and the Arabs.

Ezekiel 25 - Jordan "Moab", Saudi Arabia "Teman, Dedan (v. 13)".

Ezekiel 27 - Lebanon "Tyre, Zidon, Gebal" (v. 9), Iran "Persia" and he adds Libya "Lud", and Phut (North Africa). This takes in middle Asia and North Africa (chapter 27:10,21), just as Ezekiel predicted in chapter 38.

Ezekiel 30 - The fall of the nations of North Africa, including Egypt, in the time of the "Day of the Lord" - a clear reference to the end time.

Ezekiel 35:12-15 (Edom, Jordan)

Daniel 11 - Egypt (verse 40)

Habbakuk 3 - "Teman" and "Paran" "Midian" are Saudi Arabia (center of Islam), and "Cushan" is Sudan (Cush). "God came from Teman, and the Holy One from mount Paran. Selah. His glory covered the heavens, and the earth was full of his praise." This is definitely Messianic pertaining to the second coming.

3:3-7, 12-16 ["He beheld, and drove asunder the nations [Midian]; and the everlasting hills [nations] did bow" (v. 6), "Thou didst thresh the heathen in anger" (v. 12)

Isaiah 11:14 - Jordan "Edom, Moab"

Isaiah 13 - "Behold, the day of the LORD cometh" (v. 9), For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light" (v. 10), is end-times and includes Babylon (Iraq, Arabia, all Muslim).

Isaiah 14:24-27 - ("I will break the Assyrian [Iraq] in My land, and tread him underfoot"). Here Satan (Lucifer) is addressed as a man "They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, [and] consider thee, [saying, Is] this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms" (Isaiah 14:16)

Isaiah 14:28-32 - (Philistia, Gaza) Muslim

Isaiah 15-16 - (Moab/Jordan) Muslim

Isaiah 17 - (Damascus, Syria) Muslim

Isaiah 18 - (Punishment of Sudan), 18:6 matches the birds feeding on the dead in Ezekiel 38/39 after the Sudanese (Cush Ezekiel 38:5).

Isaiah 19 - "Egypt will fear Judah" (v17), then Egypt will be healed.

Isaiah 21 - against Arabia (Kedar, Tema, and Dumah) The curses on Arabia "burden of the desert of the sea" (v. 1). Dumah is in Saudi Arabia near Yathrib in verse 11, today called "Dumat el-Jandal", also Kedar in verse 17. These prophecies find both historical and future fulfillment as well. "The glory of Kedar shall fail" (11-17). What other then Mecca and Islam could the "glory of Kedar" be?

Isaiah 31 - "shall the LORD of hosts come down to fight for mount Zion, and for the hill thereof" is the end when Messiah fights "The Assyrian", "The Egyptians".

Isaiah 34:2-8 - (Edom, Jordan) note "it is the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion" (v. 8).

Isaiah 63:1-6 - ("Who is this who comes from Edom (Jordan), with dyed [blood-stained] garments from Bozrah (Iraq)." This is definitely second coming of Messiah and these nations are Muslim.

Zechariah 9:1,2 - (Syria, Lebanon) Muslim, Lebanon is the heart of Hezbullah.

Zechariah 9:5 - (Gaza) Gaza is a Muslim city and the heart of Hammas.

Zechariah 10 - Syria, Iraq and Egypt's armies destroyed in Lebanon (v. 10)

Zechariah 12:2 - "I will make Jerusalem and Judah like an intoxicating drink to all the nearby nations that send their armies to besiege Jerusalem". All the nations "round about" (RSV) or "near by nations" (NTL) "peoples around" (NASB), "surrounding peoples" (NKJV) Israel are all Muslim, regardless of which translation of the text one uses. Some say that the entire world's nations are around Israel for the use of the term "round about" only pertains to the fact that they surround the borders. Yet the verse is clearer when we see the usage in the continuation of the verse "that send their armies to besiege Jerusalem". So this understanding is flawed since it doesn't make sense that "surrounding armies" send "armies" to surround Jerusalem. The correct rendering of the verse then must be that these nations are nearby (round about) and send there armies to lay siege on Jerusalem. The Old Testament references to the nations "round about" are widespread, with over 50 references to these entities between Deuteronomy 6:14 and Zechariah 14:4. In passages where these are identified by name (e.g., Psalm 83), they are Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Jordan, the "Palestinians" of Gaza, the Bedouin PLO within Israel, Jordan (Moab/Edom/Ammon[the ancient name which Amman the capital of Jordan is derived from]) and Saudi Arabia.

Micah 5:1-6 - agrees with Isaiah 14 (Satan, Anti-Christ) in which the destruction of "the Assyrian" upon Israel's mountains is foretold, and that "(Israel) shall waste the land of Assyria with the sword" (v. 6).

The whole of Scripture regarding end-times with minor and major prophets speak on none else than the Islamic world.

Apart from the all the details that are given regarding these countries individually and about their relationship today, many of which have been discussed in this article, these two observations alone are amazing:

Besides the huge geographical distances between them, at the time these prophecies were given (some 500 years before Christ), all these nations mentioned had many different religions and many of them no political connection. Only over a thousand years later they all became Muslim (religiously) and were unified politically in the Islamic Empire.

That Biblical prophecy, more than two-thousand years ago, binds together exactly the Muslim nations and not the non-Muslim countries neighboring to them, should give everyone -- including Muslims -- every reason to take biblical prophecy very seriously.

 

[Rhema]

Some translations use the word HILL. The text is the word 'oros' which is better translated 'mountain' NOT HILL.

I'm rather sure that that's not the case, though.

I provide (as is usual) a LINK to the Liddell Scott Lexicon for oros:

A. mountain, hill,​

And from the Cambridge Greek Lexicon:

1. mountain or mountainous area (Homer)​

2. (generally) high ground, hill, height (the Homeric Hymns)​

So it doesn't look like the Greek corpus (including Homer himself) makes a distinction. BUT, if you have a reference, I would be inclined to look at it. Unless it's the BDAG (an inbred publication made by Evangelicals telling other Evangelicals what they want to hear). Or Thayer's (a lexicon that was out of date before it was published).

But an interesting post,
Rhema

Sorry, the Cambridge is a real book, and despite the high cost, they provide no link or even searchable software. And I don't have access at the moment to Kittel's.

PS: The Ptolemaic Greeks in Egypt used oros to mean desert (as in "high sand dunes").

 

[bowwow]

I'm rather sure that that's not the case, though.

I provide (as is usual) a LINK to the Liddell Scott Lexicon for oros:

A. mountain, hill,​

And from the Cambridge Greek Lexicon:

1. mountain or mountainous area (Homer)​

2. (generally) high ground, hill, height (the Homeric Hymns)​

So it doesn't look like the Greek corpus (including Homer himself) makes a distinction. BUT, if you have a reference, I would be inclined to look at it. Unless it's the BDAG (an inbred publication made by Evangelicals telling other Evangelicals what they want to hear). Or Thayer's (a lexicon that was out of date before it was published).

But an interesting post,
Rhema

Sorry, the Cambridge is a real book, and despite the high cost, they provide no link or even searchable software. And I don't have access at the moment to Kittel's.

PS: The Ptolemaic Greeks in Egypt used oros to mean desert (as in "high sand dunes").

The link doesn't show how 'oros' is used in Revelation 17. The KJV translates Strong's G3735 in the following manner: mountain (41x), mount (21x), hill (3x).

The three times 'hill' is used is NOT in Revelation 17. Everywhere I look it shows MOUNTAIN.

 

[bowwow]

I'm curious Rhema, are you saying Babylon the Great is Rome?

 

[Rhema]

I'm curious Rhema, are you saying Babylon the Great is Rome?

To set the stage, I should mention that the book of Revelation is not in our canon, nor the canon of the Church of the East as established by the Apostle Thomas in the Parthian Empire (think Persia).

Second, unlike every other book in the New Testament, one can remove every reference to Jesus Christ and anything Christian, and the book maintains its cohesiveness.

Unless convinced otherwise, I hold to the view that Revelation was initially a Jewish apocalyptic writing (there are others) into which somebody added a Christian pastiche (or should I say veneer?). At the council of Nicaea, about half the Bishops did not consider Revelation to be canon, if one accepts Eusebius' account.

All that said, the simple answer is yes. I believe the author is speaking about Rome when using the shibboleth "Babylon." The Jews were first destroyed by Babylon who demolished the first temple. Rome demolished the second temple. It is not far fetched to use the name of the First empire to reference the Second empire when the Second empire is still in power and would kill you for insulting Rome.

As an aside, when Paul uses the phrase "god of this world" he meant the Roman Emperor, not Satan. Paul never had a problem writing the word Satan when he meant Satan, three times even, in the same epistle. And it's the same impetus - don't be caught with writings that insult Rome or the Emperor. Or else.

The link doesn't show how 'oros' is used in Revelation 17.

It's only used as the author intended, and that would be set by his expected audience. There is NO document at all that would show how any word was used in Revelation, or in any other specific book for that matter. Words are as they are used.

The KJV translates Strong's G3735 in the following manner:

From my experience neither the KJV nor Strong's is your friend. For decades now (five of them), I have used an Interlinear Greek, and I recommend the following to you, which will afford you with the opportunity to compare what's written with the KJV and NIV translations.

The Interlinear KJV-NIV Parallel New Testament in Greek…

The Interlinear KJV-NIV Parallel New Testament does thr…

www.goodreads.com

Kindly,
Rhema

 

[Dave M]

Spiritual battles are fought on our knees, through fasting and prayers and obedience !! And the word of God is our shield and sword.

You want to see what spiritual battles looks like?? plenty examples in the Bible no need to take anyone's word for it when it is in the Bible, how did Jesus fight Satan with the word, how did Jesus cast our Demons, that other could not ,,fasting.. What did Jesus do in the Garden before the enemy came for him,,, Prayed..

God makes things simple for us when we trust in him and him alone.

Do not listen to people that try to elevate themselves, and try to be mysterious. First red flag of pride is when when a person elevates them self. and what happens when pride comes into play, Pride can and will blind a person to the truth. They themselves can often be deceived, happens all the time,,

 

[Bill]

Spiritual battles are fought on our knees, through fasting and prayers and obedience !! And the word of God is our shield and sword.

You want to see what spiritual battles looks like?? plenty examples in the Bible no need to take anyone's word for it when it is in the Bible, how did Jesus fight Satan with the word, how did Jesus cast our Demons, that other could not ,,fasting.. What did Jesus do in the Garden before the enemy came for him,,, Prayed..

God makes things simple for us when we trust in him and him alone.

Do not listen to people that try to elevate themselves, and try to be mysterious. First red flag of pride is when when a person elevates them self. and what happens when pride comes into play, Pride can and will blind a person to the truth. They themselves can often be deceived, happens all the time,,

Yes indeed , spiritual battles are fought on our knees

 

[Bill]

To set the stage, I should mention that the book of Revelation is not in our canon, nor the canon of the Church of the East as established by the Apostle Thomas in the Parthian Empire (think Persia).

Second, unlike every other book in the New Testament, one can remove every reference to Jesus Christ and anything Christian, and the book maintains its cohesiveness.

Unless convinced otherwise, I hold to the view that Revelation was initially a Jewish apocalyptic writing (there are others) into which somebody added a Christian pastiche (or should I say veneer?). At the council of Nicaea, about half the Bishops did not consider Revelation to be canon, if one accepts Eusebius' account.

All that said, the simple answer is yes. I believe the author is speaking about Rome when using the shibboleth "Babylon." The Jews were first destroyed by Babylon who demolished the first temple. Rome demolished the second temple. It is not far fetched to use the name of the First empire to reference the Second empire when the Second empire is still in power and would kill you for insulting Rome.

As an aside, when Paul uses the phrase "god of this world" he meant the Roman Emperor, not Satan. Paul never had a problem writing the word Satan when he meant Satan, three times even, in the same epistle. And it's the same impetus - don't be caught with writings that insult Rome or the Emperor. Or else.


It's only used as the author intended, and that would be set by his expected audience. There is NO document at all that would show how any word was used in Revelation, or in any other specific book for that matter. Words are as they are used.


From my experience neither the KJV nor Strong's is your friend. For decades now (five of them), I have used an Interlinear Greek, and I recommend the following to you, which will afford you with the opportunity to compare what's written with the KJV and NIV translations.

The Interlinear KJV-NIV Parallel New Testament in Greek…

The Interlinear KJV-NIV Parallel New Testament does thr…

www.goodreads.com

Kindly,
Rhema

I wonder if people take into account the scripture is written in layers?