Four Marks of Deception

[Christ4Ever]

What are we talking about here?
Deception.
With a little "Cult" tossed in for good measure.

Let's see if we can order what we really mean and are talking about. It seems we are using the word "Cult" when in truth we should be using the word "Heresy".

Meaning of CULT = An organized group of people, religious or not, with whom you disagree.

Meaning: It could be just about anything people have disagreement on. Could be us right here! Yikes. I don't think we're really talking about that. At least not without using another word which sheds a bit more light.

Meaning of HERESY = Online Etymology Dictionary

Note: I added the link because there were examples used that might be eye opening to many. Also, the site might be helpful in your studies.

Now this doesn't mean that they cannot go hand in hand. However, I would say the Heresy part comes first then the Cult is the byproduct of whatever the heretical teaching is. So, if you are using "Cult" as being the byproduct of "Heretical" teaching then it truly is something that should be used most carefully. When would I expressively use it? I'll let scripture provide one very good example for me.

But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. Galatians 1:8

Now if you followed the link above for heresy you will have found a few too many examples of what has been considered "Heresy". We could probably add a few that were not included.

Yes. Being able to identify deception is necessary. So this requires what?

In these days, I do believe what we need more of is "discernment".

I've always liked what Charles Spurgeon said on discernment. "Discernment is not simply a matter of telling the difference between what is right and wrong; rather it is the difference between right and almost right.

Meaning if we excuse that little bit of incorrect doctrine that we through study and the Holy Spirit know to be wrong. Yet, accept it as if there is nothing wrong with this smidgen of wrong. What of it? What does scripture say about a little leaven?

A little leaven leavens the whole lump. Galatians 5:9

It's also not just about us! What example have we set for those who do not know better? We are disciple makers!

Let me never be cause for leading any astray, I pray dear Father!

That is really what we are talking about. Individuals & groups can from either its inception/founding or transformation/alteration over time be deceived.

The real question when we know this to be the case is......What are we going to do about it?

Someone here used this verse not in this way, but it came to mind as I was typing this post.

[Her Brothers] Catch us the foxes, The little foxes that spoil the vines, For our vines [have] tender grapes. Song of Solomon 2:15

Whatever we do. Let it be done in love. When we are corrected by the Father. Do you think He loves us any less? So keep that in mind as you not only discuss this subject, but whenever you run across one of those who might be spreading heretical teachings. If you do it in love, and with the power of the Holy Spirit. There is a very good chance that you won't alienate them, and leave them open to hearing more!
YBIC
C4E
<><

P.S. Nope. We're not perfect, but it shouldn't stop us from trying! :thumbsup:

 

[Bendito]

Another interesting point about being deceived I am very curious about. What about about people who never read read the bible, but go to church (catholic) regularly and their heart is in the right place.WHen I say their heart is in the right place I mean it, they wont watch rated R movies, never under any circumstances miss church never curse try their very best to obey the 10 commandments loves their neighbor. I mean if you are borned into that faith you really do not know anything different, and I know I they (catholics) do not encourage their members to read the bible. They have been deceived their whole life praying the Mary, etc.... My thought is this is one of the many reasons and blessings that we are saved by grace, That if we are deceived by true ignorance on our part, it wont matter as long as our heart is in the right place. Would love to hear what others think on that.

Dave Many many Christians get into the Word and ignore the Holy Spirit, preferring to learn in the strength of their own minds...This alone will lead do all sorts of wild and wacky ideas, such as building an entire doctrine on one single verse... Anyone who wants to know God and His Word will put his brain on hold save for reading and talking to Father and listening...LISTENING to the Holy Spirit. So....take it from there.

 

[Bendito]

@Christ4Ever Individuals are deceived rather than entire church groups. The official doctrines of the a church may be in error but that in itself doesn't condemn anyone except perhaps those who were involved in establishing said doctrines. Anyone in any church group can be deceived or can be led by the Holy Spirit. If we really seek God's kingdom and righteousness first (Matt 6:33) we will not go wrong. We need God's help to do that. For that reason we not only are able to ask for help, but we should!

Jonestown, Community Chapel in Seattle, Waco's David Koresh, Westboro Baptist.....entire congregations in deception..not just one individual. Deception is not limited by numbers at all.

 

[Bendito]

What are we talking about here?
Deception.
With a little "Cult" tossed in for good measure.

Let's see if we can order what we really mean and are talking about. It seems we are using the word "Cult" when in truth we should be using the word "Heresy".

Meaning of CULT = An organized group of people, religious or not, with whom you disagree.

Meaning: It could be just about anything people have disagreement on. Could be us right here! Yikes. I don't think we're really talking about that. At least not without using another word which sheds a bit more light.

Meaning of HERESY = Online Etymology Dictionary

Note: I added the link because there were examples used that might be eye opening to many. Also, the site might be helpful in your studies.

Now this doesn't mean that they cannot go hand in hand. However, I would say the Heresy part comes first then the Cult is the byproduct of whatever the heretical teaching is. So, if you are using "Cult" as being the byproduct of "Heretical" teaching then it truly is something that should be used most carefully. When would I expressively use it? I'll let scripture provide one very good example for me.

But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. Galatians 1:8

Now if you followed the link above for heresy you will have found a few too many examples of what has been considered "Heresy". We could probably add a few that were not included.

Yes. Being able to identify deception is necessary. So this requires what?

In these days, I do believe what we need more of is "discernment".

I've always liked what Charles Spurgeon said on discernment. "Discernment is not simply a matter of telling the difference between what is right and wrong; rather it is the difference between right and almost right.

Meaning if we excuse that little bit of incorrect doctrine that we through study and the Holy Spirit know to be wrong. Yet, accept it as if there is nothing wrong with this smidgen of wrong. What of it? What does scripture say about a little leaven?

A little leaven leavens the whole lump. Galatians 5:9

It's also not just about us! What example have we set for those who do not know better? We are disciple makers!

Let me never be cause for leading any astray, I pray dear Father!

That is really what we are talking about. Individuals & groups can from either its inception/founding or transformation/alteration over time be deceived.

The real question when we know this to be the case is......What are we going to do about it?

Someone here used this verse not in this way, but it came to mind as I was typing this post.

[Her Brothers] Catch us the foxes, The little foxes that spoil the vines, For our vines [have] tender grapes. Song of Solomon 2:15

Whatever we do. Let it be done in love. When we are corrected by the Father. Do you think He loves us any less? So keep that in mind as you not only discuss this subject, but whenever you run across one of those who might be spreading heretical teachings. If you do it in love, and with the power of the Holy Spirit. There is a very good chance that you won't alienate them, and leave them open to hearing more!
YBIC
C4E
<><

P.S. Nope. We're not perfect, but it shouldn't stop us from trying! :thumbsup:

LOL You did give an incomplete definition of the word cult here you know.. That's kind of like taking a single verse to prove a doctrine isn't it? Cult also means 'a religion or sect considered to be false, unorthodox, or extremist, with members often living outside of conventional society under the direction of a charismatic leader.' There are many cults under the heading of Christian churches....I'm sure you can think of a few yourself...Westboro Bapist for one?
But you are also right...We can see deception and avoid cults by the discernment of the Holy Spirit in us...

 

[Christ4Ever]

@Bendito
LOL
The point I'm trying to make is that they are "cults", because they are "heretical" and have formed this teaching into a group. If you were to explain why any specific group is a cult. You would explain it how? What standard would you use against them?

Let me answer for you. Identify their teachings first as being heretical and you've exposed the making of a cult! That is why it is important to be able to say why you believe as you believe! Otherwise, one might very well be in a cult and not know it.

Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 2 Timothy 2:15

As far as explaining the term "Cult". I do believe this is what you are hinting at

What Is a Cult? | Marks of a Cult | Cults

Nice read, but still doesn't change the origin of the word. Kind of like being Gay. I can actually remember when it didn't mean what it means today. It used to mean "lighthearted" "carefree"!
Only in love brother!
C4E
<><

 

[amadeus2]

Jonestown, Community Chapel in Seattle, Waco's David Koresh, Westboro Baptist.....entire congregations in deception..not just one individual. Deception is not limited by numbers at all.

While I see your point it doesn't really change my stand on being very slow to call a group a cult. All groups of my experience, including the one with which I presently associate regularly have error in them as well as truth. They have a mixture with some having a greater amount of good, as I see it, than others.

The ones you name seem to fit your pattern, but since we were not there and we did not know what was in the heart of each person, we cannot know how much they were deceived at the end of the matter. The "good" thief on the cross was apparently deceived in very much of his lifetime right up until it was nearly too late... Can you say there were none like the good thief in those in any of those groups you named? Can you say even that the doctrines of those groups as a whole contained no truth at all in them?

Which Christian church groups can you name that have a precise set of doctrinal beliefs which definitely have no errors or no truth in them?

Probably any of the so-called cults, the JWs and/or Mormons for example, do teach some things with which nearly any church group would agree.

Any Christian church groups not designated as cults by anyone most also likely teach some very wrong doctrines as God sees them.

Who but God is able to sort them all out? Some people need to make decisions on them because they are considering joining them, but if they aren't, what is the point of putting a negative label on them?

To me in my experience most of member of the mainstream (so-called) churches bearing the Christian label are worse in their spirit than the Mormons that I have known. In spite of this I would not name them as cults. The most important thing for a believer to manifest is charity (love) as defined in I Corinthians chapter 13. It is based on this that I draw my conclusions based on my own experience, rather than on the set of core beliefs or doctrines defined by any church organization.

 

[Bendito]

@Bendito
LOL
The point I'm trying to make is that they are "cults", because they are "heretical" and have formed this teaching into a group. If you were to explain why any specific group is a cult. You would explain it how? What standard would you use against them?

Let me answer for you. Identify their teachings first as being heretical and you've exposed the making of a cult! That is why it is important to be able to say why you believe as you believe! Otherwise, one might very well be in a cult and not know it.

Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 2 Timothy 2:15

As far as explaining the term "Cult". I do believe this is what you are hinting at

What Is a Cult? | Marks of a Cult | Cults

Nice read, but still doesn't change the origin of the word. Kind of like being Gay. I can actually remember when it didn't mean what it means today. It used to mean "lighthearted" "carefree"!
Only in love brother!
C4E
<><

Ok Sometimes I get overzealous No offense Intended, so if I did offend Please forgive me

 

[Christ4Ever]

Ok Sometimes I get overzealous No offense Intended, so if I did offend Please forgive me

Accepted and so you know no offense taken brother.
That's why I say and truly believe "Only in Love Brother!" all is forgiven!
Brotherly Hug!

 

[Christ4Ever]

Dear Brother @amadeus2

If not cult would you say that it is heresy in what they teach?

There is much more I have typed in response to what you have posted to Bendito (Post #26). Yet, the words flowed in more astonishment, a bit of anger and it is for this reason I will not post them. My feelings are inconsequential, but to find the words in love to post a response so that correction in it can be made without being biting or hurtful on purpose is very difficult. I love you so I take the time!

Your hands off which is how I see your words as boiling down to as saying. If it were directed to the ways of the world I could understand, but as it pertains to correcting error in things of God leaves me speechless brother. Well, not really speechless as you can see. (Sheepish)

In my job I work for a Mormon and love him dearly. He exemplifies what a Christian should be. Still, this does not take away from a faulty theology and the knowledge that his Jesus is not my Jesus. He also knows this from me. I will not lie to him. What kind of representative of our Lord would I be if I did lie or said nothing? This man may not believe my truth, but at least he knows that its truth as I've come to understand it to be.

We have come to a mutually understanding that even as he moves up in the Mormon church and lets me know how he teaches and continues to progress in his Mormon studies. I can never believe in what to me and many others are a theology based on a lie. Cult if you will. If they desire to be called Christian then heresy it is.

You must first identify the issue that needs to be corrected. Keep in mind that the Apostles did a lot of correcting and admonishing after identifying the problem. So did God to the churches. Remember, the Nicolaitans in the Book Revelation? They were wrong and God asked who to repent of them? So before you can help with it, you must identify it. After identifying it you don't let it slide and justify it because they all seem to have some fault. We may not achieve perfection, but it does not mean that we do not try.

Sometimes you have to step up and call it what it is. You won't be moving them further away from the truth by being honest to them. If they are already following a lie, then maybe your words in the Spirit in which it is intended, will be received and just might provide the seed/watering of truth needed. If or when, the change or growth occurs? Always, in God's will and time. Never my own! Just, if it's going to be done. Do it in love!

Love you brother.

 

[KingJ]

We are salt not sugar.

 

[Christ4Ever]

We are also sweet and not bitter.

Plus thing about it brother.
Salt not only helps with keeping food it also brings out flavor!

 

[amadeus2]

Dear Brother @amadeus2

If not cult would you say that it is heresy in what they teach?

What is heresy for one may not be heresy to another. For me heresy is committed when a person believes a certain thing and then in spite of that belief goes a against it. Even if there is a absolute truth (which I believe there is, as do you) how can a person commit heresy against it without knowing what it is? True heresy is perhaps the unforgivable sin against the Holy Spirit, but if person doesn't have the Holy Spirit or doesn't know the Holy Spirit, how can he commit the unforgivable?

Unbelievers who do not know better cannot commit heresy as I see it. Only a believer could, but it must be against what he already believes.

There is much more I have typed in response to what you have posted to Bendito (Post #26). Yet, the words flowed in more astonishment, a bit of anger and it is for this reason I will not post them. My feelings are inconsequential, but to find the words in love to post a response so that correction in it can be made without being biting or hurtful on purpose is very difficult. I love you so I take the time!

I appreciate your openness, your honesty in this. Just because I disagree with part of what another person believes does not mean I cannot be his brother.

Your hands off which is how I see your words as boiling down to as saying. If it were directed to the ways of the world I could understand, but as it pertains to correcting error in things of God leaves me speechless brother. Well, not really speechless as you can see. (Sheepish)

When I am able to correct as it is God's will for me to do so, I would want to do so. But, what if any part of what I would teach were wrong?

Do I have all of God's truth? Is any part of my presently held belief wrong? I would not hold it as my belief if I believed that it was wrong. But, in my own past experience as a believer I have changed my beliefs because I saw something I believed was better or more correct. As I have changed, not just once, but several significant times, who but God knows that I will not be so changed again? Am I not still growing in the things of God? Am I not still incomplete?

One step at the time into the Light of my next step. When I prepare to take that first step, can I even see what the second step is to be or even if there will be a second step? God knows. If I stand by Him as He stands by me, will He not speak to me?

In my job I work for a Mormon and love him dearly. He exemplifies what a Christian should be. Still, this does not take away from a faulty theology and the knowledge that his Jesus is not my Jesus. He also knows this from me. I will not lie to him. What kind of representative of our Lord would I be if I did lie or said nothing? This man may not believe my truth, but at least he knows that its truth as I've come to understand it to be.

And so for a faulty theology is it right to set him behind someone whose theology according to you is better? What if this one with the better theology does not exemplify what a Christian should be? Are we to know them by their theology or by their fruits?

"And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing." I Cor 13:2

And is not then this "charity" greater than the knowledge of even theology of which you speak so highly? Is "charity" not defined by verses 4 through 7 of that same 13th chapter of I Corinthians?

We have come to a mutually understanding that even as he moves up in the Mormon church and lets me know how he teaches and continues to progress in his Mormon studies. I can never believe in what to me and many others are a theology based on a lie. Cult if you will. If they desire to be called Christian then heresy it is.

It may be wrong, but apparently they believe it is not. God knows of these things and looks not to your theology or mine or theirs, but to our hearts:

"Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts." Prov 21:2

Do not those words still apply to believers today in the 35,000 different denominations based on their own understanding of the scriptures. Are not their beliefs for the most part a mixture of God's truth and their own conclusions? Are you exempt from error in your treatment of the scriptures? Am I?

Were the Catholics in error in their persecutions of those they chose to call heretics? If we are really better than those Catholics then where is our mercy? Where is our need to condemn them? If they are wrong, these Mormons, or JWs or Baptists, or Methodists, or Pentecostals or whatever, are they not condemned already?

In our perfection [if we really already have it] should we condemn them or should we not once we have had our necessary say, leave them to the One that "pondereth the hearts"?

You must first identify the issue that needs to be corrected. Keep in mind that the Apostles did a lot of correcting and admonishing after identifying the problem.

Are we then Apostles? Before we go off half-cocked in making corrections had we not be very certain first that the "beam" (as opposed to the "mote") is gone from our own eye in the case in point AND second that God wants me or you to make the correction. The Body of Christ consists of many members with many different functions appointed by God. What has He appointed me to do? What has He appointed you to do? These appointments likely do overlap, but they are not all exactly the same.

So did God to the churches. Remember, the Nicolaitans in the Book Revelation? They were wrong and God asked who to repent of them? So before you can help with it, you must identify it. After identifying it you don't let it slide and justify it because they all seem to have some fault. We may not achieve perfection, but it does not mean that we do not try.

So take each person one at the time as he stands before you and as God speaks to your heart to deal with him. Even as we may be brothers here not agreeing on every point, even so are those who are in other groups, such already mentioned here do not agree on every point. Some of their points of disagreement among themselves may put some of them closer to us than we presently know.

Sometimes you have to step up and call it what it is. You won't be moving them further away from the truth by being honest to them. If they are already following a lie, then maybe your words in the Spirit in which it is intended, will be received and just might provide the seed/watering of truth needed. If or when, the change or growth occurs? Always, in God's will and time. Never my own! Just, if it's going to be done. Do it in love!

Love you brother.

My caution is to seek God on each event as the event occurs, not before it occurs. According to the law given by God to Moses the woman caught in the act of adultery should have been stoned to death. In the situation of the moment what did Jesus do?

"And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more."

You know a Mormon and deal with him in the present situation with him, but whether that Mormon ever repents as a result of your example and your words, you decide the fate of all other Mormons you have not met based on that result.

 

[Christ4Ever]

What is heresy for one may not be heresy to another. For me heresy is committed when a person believes a certain thing and then in spite of that belief goes a against it. Even if there is a absolute truth (which I believe there is, as do you) how can a person commit heresy against it without knowing what it is? True heresy is perhaps the unforgivable sin against the Holy Spirit, but if person doesn't have the Holy Spirit or doesn't know the Holy Spirit, how can he commit the unforgivable?

Agreed.

I have said you must first define the belief. Do they profess to be Christians? This doesn't mean that they are believers, but it could mean that they are disguised as one. These are the wolves within the church that would turn the Elect away, if they could. However, there are heresies which are worse, because they would prevent the unbeliever from knowing the truth by disguising it. That is the horror for one not addressing error. Allowing it to go on and doing nothing is not scriptural.

As far as the unbeliever committing the unpardonable sin.... They are condemned already brother by their unbelief.

Unbelievers who do not know better cannot commit heresy as I see it. Only a believer could, but it must be against what he already believes.

The unbeliever not commit heresy? I can agree with this. However, they can still communicate heretical teaching. Nothing prevents them from doing so. To me. That would have them in greater need of the Gospel and truth!

I appreciate your openness, your honesty in this. Just because I disagree with part of what another person believes does not mean I cannot be his brother.

Never said you could not be their brother. However, does it not revolve around what that belief is that should determine their brotherhood in Christ Jesus? If they are children of perdition can they still be my brother? What do we have in common, except that I was once as they are now?

When I am able to correct as it is God's will for me to do so, I would want to do so. But, what if any part of what I would teach were wrong?

Do I have all of God's truth? Is any part of my presently held belief wrong? I would not hold it as my belief if I believed that it was wrong. But, in my own past experience as a believer I have changed my beliefs because I saw something I believed was better or more correct. As I have changed, not just once, but several significant times, who but God knows that I will not be so changed again? Am I not still growing in the things of God? Am I not still incomplete?

So what you're saying is before one can be a teacher they should have all of God's truth or not do so? Who but Christ Jesus had knowledge of all of God's truth? Remember even the Apostles changed. We all do. So when God presents the opportunity to help another in knowing scriptural truth. Should we not do so?

One step at the time into the Light of my next step. When I prepare to take that first step, can I even see what the second step is to be or even if there will be a second step? God knows. If I stand by Him as He stands by me, will He not speak to me?

Of cause dear brother! We sit, stand, and walk in Him and always in faith.

And so for a faulty theology is it right to set him behind someone whose theology according to you is better? What if this one with the better theology does not exemplify what a Christian should be? Are we to know them by their theology or by their fruits?

"And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing." I Cor 13:2

And is not then this "charity" greater than the knowledge of even theology of which you speak so highly? Is "charity" not defined by verses 4 through 7 of that same 13th chapter of I Corinthians?

I love 1 Corinthians 13. For it teaches us the importance of Love. However, it does not negate the other things mentioned. It just sets the priority. So if I have all things and have not love, I am nothing. Yet, one can be based upon the foundation of love and still have these other things mentioned. It's not that you must have one and the others are of no account. Your foundation is Christ Jesus, who is God, who is Love. Then upon that you continue to build. I myself have had to tear down many a floor back to the foundation upon which my birth was made and start building again upon what is true. Before I even had a foundation or knew that I should have one. I studied under the Jehovah Witnesses, under Catholicism, Christian Scientist, Southern Baptist, Pentecostal, Lutheran, etc. So I do take great care of naming something a cult or say heresy. But I will not fail to do so when it is evident, that what is being spoken as truth is not. If someone is going to hell, I hope it's because they jumped over our prone bodies' dear brother!

It may be wrong, but apparently they believe it is not. God knows of these things and looks not to your theology or mine or theirs, but to our hearts:

"Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts." Prov 21:2

Do not those words still apply to believers today in the 35,000 different denominations based on their own understanding of the scriptures. Are not their beliefs for the most part of mixture of God's truth and their own conclusions? Are you exempt from error in your treatment of the scriptures? Am I? Were the Catholics in error in their persecutions of those they chose to call heretics? If we are really better than those Catholics then where is our mercy? Where is our need to condemn them? If they are wrong, these Mormons, or JWs or Baptists, or Methodists, or Pentecostals or whatever, are they not condemned already? In our perfection [if we really already have it] should we condemn them or should we not once we have had our necessary say, leave them to the One that "pondereth the hearts"?

I've cried for them as well brother. That still does not change the falseness that is being communicated as truth. You mentioned Proverbs 21:2. I would ask you if the OT still holds what about Ezekiel? Keeping in mind that there are no longer any excuses that can be made.

When I say unto the wicked, O wicked [man], thou shalt surely die; if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked [man] shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand. Ezekiel 33:8

Are you not now guilty for not warning them? Brother we can go back and forth on scripture, but most assuredly, if it were I who was wicked I would want to know. If not for a brother in Christ Jesus stepping out to a sinner in faith, I would probably be still left to my own devices and falsehoods or maybe another would have stepped in. I do not know if this would have been my only or last chance. Only God knows in truth. However, there is a little truth that we do know. If what we know to be true is being denied, should we not then speak of it? Correct those who are wrong concerning it?

Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears. Act 20:30-31

Are we then Apostles? Before we go off half-cocked in making corrections had we not be very certain first that it is not the "beam" (as opposed to the "mote") is gone from our own eye in the case in point AND second that God wants me or you to make the correction. The Body of Christ consists of many members with many different functions appointed by God. What has He appointed me to do? What has He appointed you to do? These appointments likely do overlap, but they are not all exactly the same.

Agreed! Have I ever mentioned going off half cocked or doing something in ignorance? By mentioning those things, you imply that I have or do so. Do you believe this of me?

You do not have to be appointed to speak the truth or correct one who is in error. Because either the Apostles were told to spread the Gospel and make disciples or we all were commanded to do so. You can't do either one without being faced by the falsehood that is everywhere in the world. You will have to point out the lies that the world and religions would want "all" to believe.

Also, one can have many functions within the body. I do believe that God does not have a problem with multi-tasking

So take each person one at the time as he stands before you and as God speaks to your heart to deal with him. Even as we may be brothers here not agreeing on every point, even so are those who are in other groups, such already mentioned here do not agree on every point. Some of their points of disagreement among themselves may put some of them closer to us than we presently know.

Many have rejected the light for the darkness that they currently reside in. While others for not hearing the Good News may not even realize that they are living in darkness.

Man may have made it about agreeing on every point. This is one reason I believe we have the diversity of denominations. I do not however, include religions in this, because only one speaks of Jesus Christ as Lord, Savior, Eternal God.

So one thing we do know of those in the darkness, whether they reside there willingly or not. Without Him you are lost no matter what you call yourself or group you may belong to. That includes both those in or out of Christendom.

However, one should look to the starting point. I would call that the Cross! Have they even begun the race yet? Or are they still at the gate waiting for that truth to manifest itself? Quite possibly waiting for you as a vessel of the Most High, or another person or maybe even to have an appearance like Paul had on the Road to Damascus towards taking that first baby step.

My caution is to seek God on each event as the event occurs, not before it occurs. According to the law given by God to Moses the woman caught in the act of adultery should have been stoned to death. In the situation of the moment what did Jesus do?

"And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more."

You know a Mormon and deal with him in the present situation with him, but whether that Mormon ever repents as a result of your example and your words, you decide the fate of all other Mormons you have not met based on that result.

The Mormon will not repent because of my words or actions. If they are vehicles by which the Holy Spirit may touch and convict such a soul to salvation. Then I am doubly blessed. For then the enemy has lost another and we have gained a brother or sister in Christ Jesus.

As always my brother! In Love!!!!
C4E
<><

 

[amadeus2]

Agreed.

I have said you must first define the belief. Do they profess to be Christians? This doesn't mean that they are believers, but it could mean that they are disguised as one. These are the wolves within the church that would turn the Elect away, if they could. However, there are heresies which are worse, because they would prevent the unbeliever from knowing the truth by disguising it. That is the horror for one not addressing error. Allowing it to go on and doing nothing is not scriptural.

I do not disagree with your words here. I said as much as I did because you asked. What I strive to live is according to what I have and what I believe that God desires of me.

As far as the unbeliever committing the unpardonable sin.... They are condemned already brother by their unbelief.

Agreed!

The unbeliever not commit heresy? I can agree with this. However, they can still communicate heretical teaching. Nothing prevents them from doing so. To me. That would have them in greater need of the Gospel and truth!

Agreed!

Never said you could not be their brother. However, does it not revolve around what that belief is that should determine their brotherhood in Christ Jesus? If they are children of perdition can they still be my brother? What do we have in common, except that I was once as they are now?

If a person with some misguided beliefs still manifests the good fruits described in scripture, can he be my brother?

The good Samaritan came from a group of people who had mixed doctrines for they worshipped both the one God and other gods. When the Assyrians carried away the tribes in the north they replaced them with other pagan peoples who did not know the One God. When there were lions come into that land of Samaria the Assyrians sent back a priest to teach them about the God of Israel. The result was a mixture:

"Jehovah they are fearing, and their gods they are serving, according to the custom of the nations whence they removed them." II Kings 17:33

"and these nations are fearing Jehovah, and their graven images they have served, both their sons and their sons` sons; as their fathers did, they are doing unto this day." II Kings 17:41

These were the Samarians, yet as we see in the story that Jesus told that it was not the priest or the Levite who was the neighbor of the injured man, but the Samaritan. Is our neighbor who cares for us in times of need our brother?

So what you're saying is before one can be a teacher they should have all of God's truth or not do so?

I did not say that. But, when a Spirit filled man is regularly quenching the Spirit of God in him, how good are his teachings? Does this not have to do with proper discernment by that same Holy Spirit?

Who but Christ Jesus had knowledge of all of God's truth? Remember even the Apostles changed. We all do. So when God presents the opportunity to help another in knowing scriptural truth. Should we not do so?

We must share what we have when a door is open and a need is presented, but have we not sometimes lied to to people because of our incorrect knowledge? Every man of us who has ever confessed incorrect doctrine has lied even though it was done with a good purpose. God understands even this, but as the ancient Israelites had to make atonement for ignorant sins, so do we when we come to a better knowledge.

I love 1 Corinthians 13. For it teaches us the importance of Love. However, it does not negate the other things mentioned. It just sets the priority. So if I have all things and have not love, I am nothing. Yet, one can be based upon the foundation of love and still have these other things mentioned. It's not that you must have one and the others are of no account. Your foundation is Christ Jesus, who is God, who is Love. Then upon that you continue to build. I myself have had to tear down many a floor back to the foundation upon which my birth was made and start building again upon what is true. Before I even had a foundation or knew that I should have one. I studied under the Jehovah Witnesses, under Catholicism, Christian Scientist, Southern Baptist, Pentecostal, Lutheran, etc. So I do take great care of naming something a cult or say heresy. But I will not fail to do so when it is evident, that what is being spoken as truth is not. If someone is going to hell, I hope it's because they jumped over our prone bodies' dear brother!

I believe we are beginning to understand each other better. As we both approach more closely to God, we must of necessity approach each other.

I've cried for them as well brother. That still does not change the falseness that is being communicated as truth. You mentioned Proverbs 21:2. I would ask you if the OT still holds what about Ezekiel? Keeping in mind that there are no longer any excuses that can be made.

When I say unto the wicked, O wicked [man], thou shalt surely die; if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked [man] shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand. Ezekiel 33:8

Are you not now guilty for not warning them? Brother we can go back and forth on scripture, but most assuredly, if it were I who was wicked I would want to know. If not for a brother in Christ Jesus stepping out to a sinner in faith, I would probably be still left to my own devices and falsehoods or maybe another would have stepped in. I do not know if this would have been my only or last chance. Only God knows in truth. However, there is a little truth that we do know. If what we know to be true is being denied, should we not then speak of it? Correct those who are wrong concerning it?

Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears. Act 20:30-31

I don't neglect or throw out the OT because I have the NT and neither do you. God helps us through the NTband the Holy Spirit to understand the OT as the natural Israelites did not.

This verse comes to mind:

"Moreover the light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun shall be sevenfold, as the light of seven days, in the day that the LORD bindeth up the breach of his people, and healeth the stroke of their wound." isaiah 30:26

I see the "light of the moon" as our the understanding of the OT and the "light of the sun" as our understanding of the NT. All of the prophecy of that verse may not have been fulfilled yet, but it is, I believe, getting closer.

Agreed! Have I ever mentioned going off half cocked or doing something in ignorance? By mentioning those things, you imply that I have or do so. Do you believe this of me?

No brother, I do not. But, we must always approach each person, even believers, with enough restraint to avoid unnecessarily offending. We offend people because some people will not accept what we say or do, but we do not do so unnecessarily. What is necessary? You have mentioned some necessities, but neither are we to cast our pearls among the swine. Who are the swine? Don't answer that.

You do not have to be appointed to speak the truth or correct one who is in error. Because either the Apostles were told to spread the Gospel and make disciples or we all were commanded to do so. You can't do either one without being faced by the falsehood that is everywhere in the world. You will have to point out the lies that the world and religions would want "all" to believe.

As per Ecc 3:7 there is a time to speak and a time to remain silent. Jesus knew this when he did not answer some questions put to him. He always knew when to speak and when to remain silent. We do not always and may find our own foot in our own mouth as a result. How often do we consult with God? As often as we need to make the right decisions.

Also, one can have many functions within the body. I do believe that God does not have a problem with multi-tasking

No, but He does not want us to get out in front of Him either. Remember what happened to King Saul when he took it on himself perform the sacrifice instead of waiting for Samuel.

Many have rejected the light for the darkness that they currently reside in. While others for not hearing the Good News may not even realize that they are living in darkness.

Man may have made it about agreeing on every point. This is one reason I believe we have the diversity of denominations. I do not however, include religions in this, because only one speaks of Jesus Christ as Lord, Savior, Eternal God.

So one thing we do know of those in the darkness, whether they reside there willingly or not. Without Him you are lost no matter what you call yourself or group you may belong to. That includes both those in or out of Christendom.

Yes.

However, one should look to the starting point. I would call that the Cross! Have they even begun the race yet? Or are they still at the gate waiting for that truth to manifest itself? Quite possibly waiting for you as a vessel of the Most High, or another person or maybe even to have an appearance like Paul had on the Road to Damascus towards taking that first baby step.

We have to be the Master's sheep always hearing His voice and always obeying it. Too many believers are not always paying attention:

"Pray with ceasing." "Rejoice in the Lord alway."

The Mormon will not repent because of my words or actions. If they are vehicles by which the Holy Spirit may touch and convict such a soul to salvation. Then I am doubly blessed. For then the enemy has lost another and we have gained a brother or sister in Christ Jesus.

As always my brother! In Love!!!!
C4E
<><

Give God all of the glory friend and brother in Christ.

 

[Christ4Ever]

I do not disagree with your words here. I said as much as I did because you asked. What I strive to live is according to what I have and what I believe that God desires of me.

I truly believe that you are a man of God who has tried to follow what God desires of you. That will never be a question to me dear brother.

If a person with some misguided beliefs still manifests the good fruits described in scripture, can he be my brother?

Even the unsaved may be called a brother. Will I fellowship with them that they may come to the light from their unbelief? Or not be moved for fear of alienating them because I care more for their "brotherhood" than I care for them to hear the truth that Salvation is only through Jesus Christ?

The good Samaritan came from a group of people who had mixed doctrines for they worshipped both the one God and other gods. When the Assyrians carried away the tribes in the north they replaced them with other pagan peoples who did not know the One God. When there were lions come into that land of Samaria the Assyrians sent back a priest to teach them about the God of Israel. The result was a mixture:

"Jehovah they are fearing, and their gods they are serving, according to the custom of the nations whence they removed them." II Kings 17:33

"and these nations are fearing Jehovah, and their graven images they have served, both their sons and their sons` sons; as their fathers did, they are doing unto this day." II Kings 17:41

These were the Samarians, yet as we see in the story that Jesus told that it was not the priest or the Levite who was the neighbor of the injured man, but the Samaritan. Is our neighbor who cares for us in times of need our brother?

Even the Lord made differences in people. I'm not talking about the Pharisee and the Sadducees either. Nor a parable. I'm sure you recall reading about the Canaanite woman asking for healing for her daughter. The Lord was not going to do for this woman, solely because she was not of the Nation of Israeli. It was how she answered the Lord that showed Him her faith that had Him relent and heal the woman's daughter.

So can't you say that there are times that differences are relevant until shown otherwise?

I did not say that. But, when a Spirit filled man is regularly quenching the Spirit of God in him, how good are his teachings? Does this not have to do with proper discernment by that same Holy Spirit?

Now if you had stated "quenching the Spirit of God in him", before, with "him" being a teacher. I would have agreed! I was looking that the glass is full to overflowing! If so, then it is not lie, but truth. For it is the Holy Spirit that speaks, guides, and truly is the teacher and not us.

We must share what we have when a door is open and a need is presented, but have we not sometimes lied to to people because of our incorrect knowledge? Every man of us who has ever confessed incorrect doctrine has lied even though it was done with a good purpose. God understands even this, but as the ancient Israelites had to make atonement for ignorant sins, so do we when we come to a better knowledge.

One cannot not lie if you're starting with Jesus Lived, Jesus Died, Jesus Rose Again, and ascended to Heaven. The Good News has arrived! Jesus is the Son of God and is God. Is there lie in those words? If I speak them am I to be corrected for the inopportune moment? I would ask if there can be such a time to not proclaim our Savior?

If one who does not believe the above to be true. Contradicts this based upon "fill in the blank reason". We should stay quiet and have them believe the lie they believe in and are advocating this same lie, because other doctrinal issues might come up and we might be in error?

When we discuss "cult" or "heresy" what we are talking about are things that are foundational. Examples are: The Virgin birth, His Deity, His life, His death on the Cross, His Resurrection, dying for the sins of the world. There are cults, heresies that in the past, present, future (I'm sure) who would state such things as lies and not truths.

I ask you brother. Are they cults and should we expose and hopefully correct in love their misguided attempts at finding Eternal Life by another means then by Jesus Christ?

I believe we are beginning to understand each other better. As we both approach more closely to God, we must of necessity approach each other.

Agreed. As long as we remember that the approach is through Christ Jesus.

I don't neglect or throw out the OT because I have the NT and neither do you. God helps us through the NTband the Holy Spirit to understand the OT as the natural Israelites did not.

This verse comes to mind:

"Moreover the light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun shall be sevenfold, as the light of seven days, in the day that the LORD bindeth up the breach of his people, and healeth the stroke of their wound." isaiah 30:26

I see the "light of the moon" as our the understanding of the OT and the "light of the sun" as our understanding of the NT. All of the prophecy of that verse may not have been fulfilled yet, but it is, I believe, getting closer.

That is why I/we await His return!

No brother, I do not. But, we must always approach each person, even believers, with enough restraint to avoid unnecessarily offending. We offend people because some people will not accept what we say or do, but we do not do so unnecessarily. What is necessary? You have mentioned some necessities, but neither are we to cast our pearls among the swine. Who are the swine? Don't answer that.

No. I won't answer that

In regards to offending. Praying up helps! Asking for the wisdom, words, understanding, to be the vessel by which His will if it is His will, might be done. Being prepared to say why you believe as you believe is most important. Some preparation steps in reaching others in love and truth.

As per Ecc 3:7 there is a time to speak and a time to remain silent. Jesus knew this when he did not answer some questions put to him. He always knew when to speak and when to remain silent. We do not always and may find our own foot in our own mouth as a result. How often do we consult with God? As often as we need to make the right decisions.

Agreed. Like I said before; No I won't answer that.

No, but He does not want us to get out in front of Him either. Remember what happened to King Saul when he took it on himself perform the sacrifice instead of waiting for Samuel.

Agreed.

Brother it is always a joy to correspond with you.
You are a breath of fresh air.
It is but one reason to love you.
YBIC
C4E
<><

 

[amadeus2]

@Christ4Ever

Even the unsaved may be called a brother. Will I fellowship with them that they may come to the light from their unbelief? Or not be moved for fear of alienating them because I care more for their "brotherhood" than I care for them to hear the truth that Salvation is only through Jesus Christ?

We don’t disagree on this.

Even the Lord made differences in people. I'm not talking about the Pharisee and the Sadducees either. Nor a parable. I'm sure you recall reading about the Canaanite woman asking for healing for her daughter. The Lord was not going to do for this woman, solely because she was not of the Nation of Israeli. It was how she answered the Lord that showed Him her faith that had Him relent and heal the woman's daughter.

So can't you say that there are times that differences are relevant until shown otherwise?

New born babies are for the most part very similar to each other. Substantial differences come to light as they develop. They move from the milk to the meat according to the flesh and in that remain similar, but in innate abilities which may be developed they are different and may become even more so. That is the flesh with defined rules and notable if infrequent exceptions.

The Canaanite woman was a very notable exception. Her story written in scripture is to let us know, for one thing, that there are exceptions. The OT contains several other such exceptions where God favored some over His favored people

Now if you had stated "quenching the Spirit of God in him", before, with "him" being a teacher. I would have agreed! I was looking that the glass is full to overflowing! If so, then it is not lie, but truth. For it is the Holy Spirit that speaks, guides, and truly is the teacher and not us.

What the Holy Spirit does is bring to Life in us the dead flesh (scripture) that we have consumed.

Scripture without the Holy Spirit will result in us drawing our own conclusions from that scripture instead of hearing what God is saying. The Holy Spirit with too little or no scripture may feel good, but in the end we will be built on a dead carcass, A proper diet of both the scripture and the Holy Spirit on a continuous basis is necessary for proper and continuous growth.

One cannot not lie if you're starting with Jesus Lived, Jesus Died, Jesus Rose Again, and ascended to Heaven. The Good News has arrived! Jesus is the Son of God and is God. Is there lie in those words? If I speak them am I to be corrected for the inopportune moment? I would ask if there can be such a time to not proclaim our Savior?

One should not lie, but if we push forward ahead of God instead of with Him, we will not speak when we don’t have His Word to speak. Consider whether the follower self-proclaimed messenger was in error:

“Then said Ahimaaz the son of Zadok yet again to Joab, But howsoever, let me, I pray thee, also run after Cushi. And Joab said, Wherefore wilt thou run, my son, seeing that thou hast no tidings ready?” II Sam 18:22

Ahimaaz had no message but he wanted to be a messenger anyway. He insisted and Joab told him to go ahead so he ran.

If one who does not believe the above to be true. Contradicts this based upon "fill in the blank reason". We should stay quiet and have them believe the lie they believe in and are advocating this same lie, because other doctrinal issues might come up and we might be in error?

If we stay with Jesus all of the time instead of either falling behind or moving ahead of him, we will never lie. But, probably all of us have been guilty of one or the other or of both errors: Too fast or too slow.

When we discuss "cult" or "heresy" what we are talking about are things that are foundational. Examples are: The Virgin birth, His Deity, His life, His death on the Cross, His Resurrection, dying for the sins of the world. There are cults, heresies that in the past, present, future (I'm sure) who would state such things as lies and not truths.

I ask you brother. Are they cults and should we expose and hopefully correct in love their misguided attempts at finding Eternal Life by another means then by Jesus Christ?

You have named some “foundational” things as a basis for applying the words “cult” or “heresy”. The only clear foundation for me is Jesus. Many of the other supposed foundations I once held have been changed since I first believed.

When I was there where some of them are, I believed sincerely that I was right. I will now tell them what I believe, but I will not put a label on them, as it may not fit. Only God knows all of their heart. Me sharing what I believe won’t not change their hearts unless God is in it. If He is in it then I hope to be in there pitching.