Free Will Synergism Vs. Free Grace Monergism

[rojoloco]

Very funny that God will hide everything in Greek knowing that many of his people me included does not know Greek! Interesting.

Umm, is this a serious reply? Please don't infer a condescending tone. I'm seriously confused if you are being serious here. I'd hardly call it hiding anything. The New Testament was written in Greek and Aramaic. It wasn't written in English. There are many words that do not properly translate over into other languages. For instance, we only have one word for love whereas Greek has several different words. In fact, John 21:15-17 is a perfect example. Here is the English translation in the NASB:

So when they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon, son of John, do you love Me more than these?" He said to Him, "Yes, Lord; You know that I love You " He said to him, "Tend My lambs." He said to him again a second time, "Simon, son of John, do you love Me?" He said to Him, "Yes, Lord; You know that I love You." He said to him, "Shepherd My sheep." He said to him the third time, "Simon, son of John, do you love Me?" Peter was grieved because He said to him the third time, "Do you love Me?" And he said to Him, "Lord, You know all things; You know that I love You " Jesus said to him, "Tend My sheep.

In English, it looks like Jesus asked Peter the same exact thing 3 different times. However, when you look at the Greek, you see this is not the case at all. In the first 2 instances, Jesus is using the word agapao[/b] which is a form of agape. It means to love wholeheartedly above all other things. It is how we are to love God. However, Peter used the word phileo in his reply. Phileo means more of a brotherly love, affectionate love, or friendly love. Both translate into the English word love. Without knowing this, we would miss the point completely as to why Peter was grieved in verse 17. It was because Jesus, in his third time, used the word phileo instead and Peter again replied with phileo. Peter was grieved not because Jesus asked him the same exact thing 3 different times as if he doubted Peter. Peter was grieved because Jesus asked him something VERY different that third time. However, in English we would never know this.

You say God is hiding things in the Greek. I say God revealed His Truth in the Greek and many things have gotten lost in translation over time. Look no further than The Message or The Living Bible to see that much. Translations are wonderful but they are never exact because it is impossible to do so for many languages including English. Instead of relying solely on English, I suggest you do some homework and study Greek. You'll be amazed at what you will find and learn.

As for other points, God does not predestine anybody to heaven or hell, that is plain meaning of choice. We are servants and never slaves. That is what plain Bible reading shows. Period!

God does not predestine anybody to Hell. We did that on our own. He does, however, predestine to Heaven. Without His intervention, we would never see anything but destruction. You keep clinging to your opinion yet you haven't even bothered to reply to the plethora of Scripture I gave. In fact, you appear to be dancing around it to such a degree that you feel the Greek cannot be more authoritative than English simply because you don't speak it.

 

[cman77]

God does not predestine anybody to Hell

I understand that this is going to get a lot of criticism, but I disagree.

"Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory" Romans 9:21-23

In reality, If god elects one and not another it is still predestination on the negative side. If you have a choice to save one person out of three people (and I am not saying this is how God works, I am just using this as a representation of the principle) then your choice of one, is at the same time the condemnation of the other two. Is it evil for God to predestine men to Hell? No it is not. Because we are sinners, and it doesn't matter why. This does not make God unjust as many people think it would.

"And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad--in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of Him who calls-- she was told, "The older will serve the younger." As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means!" Romans 9:10-13

And

"So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" Romans 9:18-20



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[rojoloco]

I understand that this is going to get a lot of criticism, but I disagree.

"Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory" Romans 9:21-23

In reality, If god elects one and not another it is still predestination on the negative side. If you have a choice to save one person out of three people (and I am not saying this is how God works, I am just using this as a representation of the principle) then your choice of one, is at the same time the condemnation of the other two. Is it evil for God to predestine men to Hell? No it is not. Because we are sinners, and it doesn't matter why. This does not make God unjust as many people think it would.

"And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad--in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of Him who calls-- she was told, "The older will serve the younger." As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means!" Romans 9:10-13

And

"So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" Romans 9:18-20

Believe it or not, you won't get much argument out of me. Well, that sort of depends on the context in which you are stating this. Based on other posts you have made, I think I am reading you correctly. I'm assuming you are saying God predestines some to Hell while, at the same time, NOT being the author of the sin which sends them there.

The doctrine of double predestination is certainly true. However, in the hyper-Calvinistic sense, it it not. Hyper-Calvinists say God predestined everything including the sin which sends the reprobate to Hell. This is unbiblical as God is not the author of sin. However, the doctrine of reprobation, in and of itself, is highly biblical.

If God predestined some to Heaven while not choosing the rest, it only stands to reason that He also elected some to Hell. Call it cause and effect if you will but, in the end, both were predetermined to go where they will. That being said, those going to Heaven will go there undeservedly while those going to Hell deserve it outright. While those going to Heaven are only going there by the grace of God, those going to Hell are going there because of the sin found in their depraved hearts.

I do believe all men were headed to Hell in a hand basket to begin with in a linear sense. However, in an eternal sense, the Elect were never truly on the timeline because God's purpose was decreed from eternity past. We were all sinners who hated God at one point (Romans 5:8). We also know the wages of sin is death (Romans 3:23). Logic will tell us we were all on the path to Hell at one point. Thankfully, God had a plan to save His Elect. This does not mean we were already saved. It just means He had already made it possible (through the atonement) and was only waiting to give us the gift of faith that our future salvation could become present salvation.

As for those who were not predestined for Heaven, they continue on the path they were originally on. They remain depraved beings at war with God who perform the will of their father, the devil (John 8:44). Why are they on this path? It is because of the sin they so happily wallow in. Why do they so happily wallow in it? Because God chose to create them yet not rescue them (Romans 9:21). We see this as unloving and even hateful (Romans 9:20). God knows we see it this way and He has already given us His response (Romans 9:21). He has a right to do whatever He wants for His glory (Romans 9:22-23). Do we really find ourselves to be of such value that we are worth more than the glory of God? If it weren't for Him, none of us would see Heaven because even our greatest works are worth the same as the bloody rags used to catch the flow of a menstruating woman (Isaiah 64:6).

BTW, 1 Peter 2:6-8 also agrees with double-predestination:

For this is contained in Scripture:
"BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A CHOICE STONE, A PRECIOUS CORNER stone,
AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."This precious value, then, is for you who believe; but for those who disbelieve,
"THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED,
THIS BECAME THE VERY CORNER stone," and,
"A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE";
for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this doom they were also appointed.

Again, while God predestined to both Heaven and Hell, man is responsible for the sin in His heart for God is not the author of sin or evil. As the Westminser Confession of Faith says:

“As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so hath He, by the eternal and most free purpose of His will, foreordained all the means thereunto. Wherefore, they who are elected . . . are effectually called unto faith in Christ by His Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by His power, through faith, unto salvation. Neither are any other redeemed by Christ, effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only. The rest of mankind God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of His own will, whereby He extendeth or withholdeth mercy, as He pleaseth, for the glory of His Sovereign power over His creatures, to pass by; and to ordain them to dishonour and wrath for their sin, to the praise of His
glorious justice.”

 

[jiggyfly]

But the problem with this paradigm is that the scriptures clearly state that the just punishment for sin is death not unending torment.:wink:

 

[cman77]

But the problem with this paradigm is that the scriptures clearly state that the just punishment for sin is death not unending torment.:wink:

So you are an Annihilationist?

 

[jiggyfly]

So you are an Annihilationist?

How is that pertinent to what the scriptures state?

 

[rojoloco]

How is that pertinent to what the scriptures state?

Because it gives us an idea as to what you are interpreting the Scriptures to state so we know how to reply without misinterpreting your post.

 

[jiggyfly]

Because it gives us an idea as to what you are interpreting the Scriptures to state so we know how to reply without misinterpreting your post.

So then what do you interpret the scriptures to state concerning the just punishment for sin?

 

[David777]

With you Jiggyfly.

Destined to eternal punishment by God.

You have to be kidding.

God is love. Hello, are they listening.

Love is kindness, compassion, consideration etc.

I do not think i have ever encountered a more sinister
concept than God by His Sovereign will, sending humans
into eternal damnation.

Destruction, yes, rejecting Christ.

Read your Bible properly, in context.

Understand that reconciliation is for creation.

 

[rojoloco]

Destined to eternal punishment by God.

You have to be kidding.

God is love. Hello, are they listening.

Love is kindness, compassion, consideration etc.

I do not think i have ever encountered a more sinister
concept than God by His Sovereign will, sending humans
into eternal damnation.

Destruction, yes, rejecting Christ.

Read your Bible properly, in context.

Understand that reconciliation is for creation.

Your interpretation is a very one-faceted view of God. God is love but He is so much more. Don't forget that He is also Just.

Furthermore, God sent His only Son, God in the flesh, to die a brutal death as an innocent man. In fact, He was perfect, without blemish, yet He was crucified. Not only crucified but sent to this Earth for that very purpose, God's purpose, so that guilty men should be pardoned and justified only to enjoy eternal life when we deserved eternal death.

Tell me how you reconcile God's love with that one. I am thankful Jesus did not share your sentiments for He would have rejected the Father after discovering those kinds of plans. If God's sovereign Will included the above plan, sending those who deserve Hell to....well, Hell, doesn't quite seem so unkind in comparison.

 

[jiggyfly]

Your interpretation is a very one-faceted view of God. God is love but He is so much more. Don't forget that He is also Just.

Furthermore, God sent His only Son, God in the flesh, to die a brutal death as an innocent man. In fact, He was perfect, without blemish, yet He was crucified. Not only crucified but sent to this Earth for that very purpose, God's purpose, so that guilty men should be pardoned and justified only to enjoy eternal life when we deserved eternal death.

Tell me how you reconcile God's love with that one. I am thankful Jesus did not share your sentiments for He would have rejected the Father after discovering those kinds of plans. If God's sovereign Will included the above plan, sending those who deserve Hell to....well, Hell, doesn't quite seem so unkind in comparison.

So please tell us Rojo, what is the just punishment for sin?

 

[evstevemd]

Destined to eternal punishment by God.

You have to be kidding.

God is love. Hello, are they listening.

Love is kindness, compassion, consideration etc.

I do not think i have ever encountered a more sinister
concept than God by His Sovereign will, sending humans
into eternal damnation.

Destruction, yes, rejecting Christ.

Read your Bible properly, in context.

Understand that reconciliation is for creation.

If judge cannot wink at law breaker do you expect God to be less just? That is a distorted view of God. He is Holy Just and lovely. In fact His very love is the one which gives us the choice. if you choose hell, He will be compelled by love to give your very choice!!

 

[jiggyfly]

If judge cannot wink at law breaker do you expect God to be less just? That is a distorted view of God. He is Holy Just and lovely. In fact His very love is the one which gives us the choice. if you choose hell, He will be compelled by love to give your very choice!!

So if a crackhead chooses to have a rock is God compelled to give it him/her?

 

[evstevemd]

So if a crackhead chooses to have a rock is God compelled to give it him/her?

who is this crackheard?
Anyway choice means choice. God put up choices and we pick what we want among choices. We also reap the consequences of the choice. God made the universe, God put the rules and it is up to us either obey or disobey. That is the choice and each option have its consequences. Also God made a way through Jesus, you either choose it or reject it. again it is a choice and each have its consequences. That is the God of the Bible.

Since I don't know meaning of crackheard can't answer the question, huh!:shock:

 

[David777]

Thanks for the reply.

God is just. It is a moral universe, sow to the flesh and die, sow to the spirit(Christ) and live, agree!

Mankind was created by God, thru Adam all died, agree.

Salvation only in Jesus Christ, this was predestined from eternity, this the prophets testify, agee.

Two groups, Jew and Gentile, the subject of Paul's letters, represent the spiritual Israel.

The Father sent Jesus Christ to reconcile the World to Himself.

Now if we reject JC we die. JC is Life. Accept JC we live.

God withholds His judgement, which He can do, for our sake.

God exceeds His justice with the greatest display of Love ever seen.

He should have destroyed us, He did not.

 

[jiggyfly]

who is this crackheard?
Anyway choice means choice. God put up choices and we pick what we want among choices. We also reap the consequences of the choice. God made the universe, God put the rules and it is up to us either obey or disobey. That is the choice and each option have its consequences. Also God made a way through Jesus, you either choose it or reject it. again it is a choice and each have its consequences. That is the God of the Bible.

Since I don't know meaning of crackheard can't answer the question, huh!:shock:

Sorry about that, a "crackhead" is a person addicted to crack-cocaine and a "rock" is crack-cocaine.

Wondering how you interpret the meaning of this verse?
You didn't choose me. I chose you. I appointed you to go and produce fruit that will last, so that the Father will give you whatever you ask for, using my name. John 15:16

 

[evstevemd]

Sorry about that, a "crackhead" is a person addicted to crack-cocaine and a "rock" is crack-cocaine.

Wondering how you interpret the meaning of this verse?
You didn't choose me. I chose you. I appointed you to go and produce fruit that will last, so that the Father will give you whatever you ask for, using my name. John 15:16

I'm not in America so some terms slips.
About the verse, I will write latter my head is little bit hit by work and so tired