Gender Neutral?

[rojoloco]

This is a sermon I gave about 2 weeks ago. It is on the roles/responsibilities of men and women within the church. This is a subject that always has different views depending if you are a liberal Christian or a conservative Christian. I just thought I would post it here in its own thread for discussion purposes.

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Gender Neutral? - delivered 1/3/10

Much has changed over the years. The cultural view of women has gone from lower class to upper class, lower quality to higher quality, feminine to feminist, etc. It is a subject that always seems to be changing depending on the times we are in. The same can be said for men. However, there is one constant that we can depend on. We can look to God’s Holy Word for the answers.

The Bible is not silent when it comes to the roles and responsibilities of men and women. Unfortunately, many Christians choose to skip over those parts in favor of what the world teaches. As Christians, we are called to be in the world but not of it. Instead of conforming our views to the world, we are to conform them to Christ. The only way to do this is by conforming our views to that of Scripture.

Ask congregation what they believe the roles of men and women to be.

1 Corinthians has a lot to say on the subject of men and women. In fact, it has so much to say on the matter that many in the church today, corrupted by the world, refuse to acknowledge it as truth. They teach that it is sexist and was only for a particular culture. They teach that to follow the same practice today would be to take 10 steps back in the progress we have made regarding women’s rights. The problem is that these people have no idea what Scripture really says. The bigger problem is that they are forsaking the truth in lieu of worldly wisdom and are threatening a design that God created. The simple truth of the matter can be found in 1 Corinthians 11:3.

But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ.

Paul apparently knew this was an issue that he had to carefully explain. We can see it in his wording of, “But I want you to understand…” We can see a sense of importance but we also see a sense of sensitivity. It was a touchy subject but it needed to be taught. As with back then, it is a touchy subject even today. Nobody wants to hear that because it sounds sexist. However, further examination shows a much different story. Instead of being sexist, it is actually an honor.

If we left it at saying man is the head of every woman, it would be incomplete. It goes on to say God is the head of Christ. If the Bible were putting down women, one would have to conclude it is putting down Christ as well. Christ was a wonderful leader but he was also the ultimate role model in submissiveness. He was submissive to the Father unto the point of death! Through his submissiveness, salvation is possible. Here, we see submissiveness being painted in an entirely different light from what the world describes.

Furthermore, it says Christ is the head of every man. God submits to nobody, man submits to Christ, and woman submits to man. All have a very important purpose in their submission. As we already covered, Christ submitted to the Father for the purpose of salvation and reconciliation. Tonight, we are going to get into the roles of man and woman regarding submissiveness and headship.

Christ was submissive to the Father yet men are to submit to him. This is because he holds absolute authority.

And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.

And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

Not only does God have a plan as outlined in verse 3, we are also commanded to show a sign of our roles.

Every man who has something on his head while praying or prophesying disgraces his head. But every woman who has her head uncovered while praying or prophesying disgraces her head, for she is one and the same as the woman whose head is shaved.

We see the basic concept here is that man is to remain uncovered while praying or prophesying yet women are to remain covered. At first, this can seem a little confusing. To fully understand it, we need to look at the bigger picture.

Does not even nature itself teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a dishonor to him, but if a woman has long hair, it is a glory to her? For her hair is given to her for a covering.

We can clearly see women are being described as having a natural covering of their long hair whereas men are not. In the same way, this is the idea behind the symbol of a covering. Some form of head covering was to be used by women as a symbol of submission. While this is seen as ludicrous in America today, many places in the world still subscribe to this practice. When I went on a mission trip to Ukraine, this was a part of the briefing. The women out there wear a covering, often a cloth wrap, around their head. It is out of the ordinary when someone does not do this. The purpose of verses 4 to 5 telling men not to wear a head covering and women to have their head covered is another way of telling us not to cross over into the roles of the other gender. It is disgraceful for a man to take on the role of a woman and vice versa. The head covering is the woman’s outward symbol of submission within the church under God.

While it may not seem like a big deal to us, Paul makes it known to be a very big deal.

But every woman who has her head uncovered while praying or prophesying disgraces her head, for she is one and the same as the woman whose head is shaved. For if a woman does not cover her head, let her also have her hair cut off; but if it is disgraceful for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, let her cover her head.

To get the full effect, we need to understand what a woman with a shaved head meant. A woman with a shaved head was a sign of a prostitute. It was meant to be a public symbol of shame. Much the opposite, a head covering is meant to be a public symbol of honor and obedience. If a woman desires to not have her head covered in church, let her shave her head and look like a prostitute. If she does not want to look like a prostitute and be associated with prostitution, let her cover her head. It was as simple as that.

This leads us to question why only women had their head covered if both women and men are submissive to some higher authority. The answer to this one is also found in Scripture.

For a man ought not to have his head covered, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. For man does not originate from woman, but woman from man; for indeed man was not created for the woman's sake, but woman for the man's sake. Therefore the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels.

Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."

Simply put, man is made in the image of God whereas woman is made in the image of man. God is the Supreme Authority. He submits to no one. Men are made in the image of God. We submit to God but we do not wear a head covering. Our gender alone symbolizes our role. Man is proof of the glory of God and what He can create. However, women are made in the image and glory of man and what can be created from man. While it sounds sexist, it is still God’s plan and we know God is good in all ways. We see in verse 10 that it says a woman should have her head covered because of the angels.

Ask congregation what they think “because of the angels” means.

Angels are created beings meant to worship, submit to, and serve God. That is their whole purpose for existence. They are used by God in any way He chooses. However, in the beginning, a third of the angels decided to follow Lucifer. Lucifer desired to be God and he convinced many angels to follow him. This was the ultimate act of disobedience and refusal to submit to authority. As a result, Lucifer and the fallen angels were cast out of Heaven by God. This should be remembered by all. It should always be in the back of our mind to show the importance of submission. Because of the incident that took place in the beginning, always submit to the authority placed over you and do it gladly.

So far this entire lesson makes God out to be a male chauvinist. This couldn’t be any further from the truth.

However, in the Lord, neither is woman independent of man, nor is man independent of woman. For as the woman originates from the man, so also the man has his birth through the woman; and all things originate from God.

It was important for Paul to teach on this as well. It is very easy to get carried away with the previous verses and take on a position of a master with his servants. This is not the design God created. While it is true that woman was made from man and is the glory of man, without woman, man would cease to exist. She has a very important role that God has blessed her with. Equality was important even back then.

John MacArthur has a great way of explaining the importance of headship and submission among men and women in the church.

[Paul] makes no distinction between men and women as far as personal worth, abilities, intellect, or spirituality are concerned. Both as human beings and as Christians, women in general are completely equal to men spiritually. Some women obviously are even superior to some men in abilities, intellect, maturity, and spirituality. God established the principle of male authority and female subordination for the purpose of order and complementation, not on the basis of and innate superiority of males. An employee may be more intelligent and more skilled than his boss, but a company cannot be run without submission to proper authority, even if some of those in authority are not as capable as they ought to be.

Just because man is placed over woman in headship does not mean man is better. It just means that is the way God designed it and we are to follow it because it is His will. Unfortunately, many men and women fall short in this because of the world’s influence. Satan has crept into the Church in many ways and this is yet another one of them. If he can’t take something out of Scripture, he will try his hardest to get people to misinterpret it so that they will think it no longer applies and was strictly cultural. This is the belief of many female pastors today.

Ask congregation what they think of female pastors.

The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says.

Many have taken this to mean that women are not allowed to speak in church at all. Because of this, they either look down at women or take the passage to be invalid today. We must never take a single verse and attempt to interpret it on our own. We must always take Scripture as a whole. Let’s look at the entire passage in context.

For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all may be exhorted; and the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets; for God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints. The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says. If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church.

We can see it is not saying women are to remain silent in all forms. We can clearly see it is referring to prophecy. However, if you will remember, 1 Corinthians 11:5 tells a woman to have her head covered if she is going to prophesy. Why the apparent contradiction? It is because people fail to properly interpret what is being said.

First of all, if you will remember our recent lesson on spiritual gifts, you will recall that prophecy was not just telling the future but was actually a gift of proclaiming publicly the truth of God and was not limited to new revelation but was often the already existing Word. Women are not prohibited from speaking out and teaching the Word. If you look again, 11:5 does not mention the church. It is speaking in general. There is nothing to prohibit a woman from teaching. In fact, women are all over the Old and New Testament with teaching examples. Women are free to teach all women studies. They are free to teach children. They are free to minister alongside their husbands as Aquila and Priscilla did in Scripture. However, in accordance with chapter 14, a woman is never to be in that position when placed over men in a church environment. She is to subject herself to man. If she desires to speak forth in a church environment for the purpose of edifying the church and teaching the church, let her do it at home with her husband. The concept of female pastors, which is becoming more and more accepted, is a highly unbiblical concept.

Even the people of Corinth apparently thought it was a cultural thing Paul was teaching as he felt the need to squash this idea.

But if one is inclined to be contentious, we have no other practice, nor have the churches of God.

It was not just something that belonged to another region. It was not something that belonged to another time period. Paul says if anyone is inclined to be contentious, if anyone desires to argue his teaching as cultural, there is no other practice in all the churches of God. Every single church of God practices these things. Obviously, the church in Corinth was a valid church of God. What Paul is saying is that anybody who claims to follow God should incorporate these practices into their local body as well. It was not a standard of man in a local church. It was a standard of God that He set forth for the Church as a whole to follow. We may not like it because of our culture but it is still the Word of God regardless and as stated in the beginning, it is not a sign of dishonor but rather, a symbol of honor.

This honor carries over into marriage as well.

Wives, be subject to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body. But as the church is subject to Christ, so also the wives ought to be to their husbands in everything.

This is another area that is horribly misinterpreted as well as avoided in today’s culture. Wives look at it and say nobody can tell them what to do or control them. Men look at it and think the have absolute control over their wives in all things. Both of these are erroneous. In fact, Paul clarifies this with a very strong stipulation.

Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her, so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless. So husbands ought also to love their own wives as their own bodies. He who loves his own wife loves himself; for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ also does the church, because we are members of His body.

Husbands are to love their wives just a Christ loved the Church. Christ loved the Church to the point of death. In a recent lesson, we covered the different types of love in the Greek language. The type of love portrayed here is agape love. It was totally selfless and sacrificial. This is the same type of love we are to have for our wives. We are given authority over our wives so that we may flourish; not have a servant. We are to love our wives just as we love ourselves. In fact, we are to love our wives greater than we love ourselves just as Christ loved the Church greater than himself.

Nevertheless, each individual among you also is to love his own wife even as himself, and the wife must see to it that she respects her husband.

In many polls over the years, a simple question has been posed: “Would you rather feel loved or respected?” The majority of men say they would rather feel respected while the majority of women say they would rather feel loved. Typically, a man feels loved when he has genuine respect while a woman feels respected when she feels genuinely loved but it does not work the other way around for either party. These results are not surprising. In fact, they were not surprising even during the time that Paul was writing to the church of Ephesus. This is why it does not tell men to respect their wives and for wives to love their husbands. Women are to respect their husbands through submission in all areas. Husbands are to love their loves sacrificially and ensure she feels it and is taken care of. Through the love shown by the husband, the wife will have a desire to submit because she will know she is taken care of and that the authority is not being abused. The results of the poll are based on our emotional responses and needs. These are controlled by nature itself. It is only when our culture gets in the way that we reject nature to look for an alternative way. Unfortunately, these alternative ways will fail.

For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Again, in God’s eyes, man and woman are equal. There is nothing in His plan that makes one superior to the other. They are not independent of each other. There is simply a design of authority and submission that must be followed in the Church if we claim to be followers of His Word. Stop trying to find another way and look at Scripture for what it is in the proper light. God created an order and He saw that it was good. Who are we to say otherwise?

 

[Boanerges]

Again, in God’s eyes, man and woman are equal. There is nothing in His plan that makes one superior to the other. They are not independent of each other. There is simply a design of authority and submission that must be followed in the Church if we claim to be followers of His Word. Stop trying to find another way and look at Scripture for what it is in the proper light. God created an order and He saw that it was good. Who are we to say otherwise?

Amen x 10 my friend. That is a good word for all.

 

[rojoloco]

Glad you enjoyed it. It is a difficult lesson to teach on but very important in our day and age where husbands and wives have forgotten their important roles and have crossed over into each others areas.

 

[HeIsMyFather]

I've a question, if I may?

Does this mean that those women who have become ministers were not called by God to become ministers?

 

[Veracity]

Just my two cent worth...
Men are not always Men of God, not all Men get respect because they are too self centered when it comes to their own needs, and not all Men honestly have Christ as their covering. Thank God for Women who are bold enough to encourage other women in the things of God, sometimes women who grew up in homes where men were cruel and overpowering. From women like this other women can learn the truth of God's word and plan and be turned from the learned disrespect of some men, to go on and become loving wives with real men who understand the role of man according to the bible.

If some men learn from what some women of God have to say, they either appreciate the blessing or they become angry they didn't know that already. Some men just do not get the truth of what submission really is.

 

[rojoloco]

I've a question, if I may?

Does this mean that those women who have become ministers were not called by God to become ministers?

If a woman is ministering to other women or children, this is fine. She can even minister to her own husband in many ways. However, if a woman has stepped up to lead a church and is over men in a church structure, she is in the wrong and was not called by God to do this despite what she may think. Scripture is very clear on this matter. God will never violate His word which means the person who felt called would have to admit error. It would mean she stepped over her bounds by crossing over into the role of man which Paul says is shameful. Women have done many great things while being over men but it is still shameful and is in direct violation of Scripture. God does not call women to lead men in church. He uses women for many different, but equally as important, reasons.

 

[Giggles4God]

When you presented Genesis 1:26, you forgot to add the verse after it, which states Gen 1:27 So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

So, with that in mind, I believe that God created both male and female in his image.

When using verses of the Bible and giving a sermon, it would be wise to research all verses to get all the meaning of the Bible.

I find that using Blue Letter Bible helps me in understanding verses that can be difficult to understand when the Hebrew words mean more than one thing like the word 'man' does.

I have already gotten into a discussion about women in ministry positions that supposedly the Bible speaks against so I won't try to explain my view again.

It is sad to think that women who are in ministry aren't called because someone's interpretation of the Word of God, the Bible, is flawed.

I suggest we all pray and forget about our agendas and open the Word of God and truly search out the Truth. For the Truth, will set us free.

And by the way, I am a woman in a leadership role. My husband and I have a ministry in Second Life, a virtual world. My husband gives me opportunity to preach and teach. If you have a problem with that, take it up with him please.

I'm not trying to be cruel or brash, but sometimes my words are like that because I get to where I'd like someone to do a true study of the word, be Bereans, and not take every word their pastor says as truth.

 

[Veracity]

If a woman is ministering to other women or children, this is fine. She can even minister to her own husband in many ways. However, if a woman has stepped up to lead a church and is over men in a church structure, she is in the wrong and was not called by God to do this despite what she may think. Scripture is very clear on this matter. God will never violate His word which means the person who felt called would have to admit error. It would mean she stepped over her bounds by crossing over into the role of man which Paul says is shameful. Women have done many great things while being over men but it is still shameful and is in direct violation of Scripture. God does not call women to lead men in church. He uses women for many different, but equally as important, reasons.

That is a strong statement for you to make...hope it works out for you.

For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 1Corinthians 2:11

 

[rojoloco]

When you presented Genesis 1:26, you forgot to add the verse after it, which states Gen 1:27 So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

So, with that in mind, I believe that God created both male and female in his image.

When using verses of the Bible and giving a sermon, it would be wise to research all verses to get all the meaning of the Bible.

I find that using Blue Letter Bible helps me in understanding verses that can be difficult to understand when the Hebrew words mean more than one thing like the word 'man' does.

I have already gotten into a discussion about women in ministry positions that supposedly the Bible speaks against so I won't try to explain my view again.

It is sad to think that women who are in ministry aren't called because someone's interpretation of the Word of God, the Bible, is flawed.

I suggest we all pray and forget about our agendas and open the Word of God and truly search out the Truth. For the Truth, will set us free.

And by the way, I am a woman in a leadership role. My husband and I have a ministry in Second Life, a virtual world. My husband gives me opportunity to preach and teach. If you have a problem with that, take it up with him please.

I'm not trying to be cruel or brash, but sometimes my words are like that because I get to where I'd like someone to do a true study of the word, be Bereans, and not take every word their pastor says as truth.

I'm not even going to bother giving a word study or touch on grammar. Instead, I will just say that of all the verses you could try to overturn this with, Genesis 1:27 is the least of them. The rest of Scripture is very clear. In fact, 1 Corinthians is the clearest of all the passages because it speaks with church structure and leadership as well as the position of women's roles within the church structure. I believe you are mistaken in your interpretation of Genesis 1:27 for reasons that I won't get into here because they are fairly irrelevant. Whatever the image may be does not change the teachings of Paul. He is very straightforward.

As for whatever Second Life is, I have no idea. What I can say is that I am doubting it is a church with church structure. If your husband allowed you to lead church, he would be in the wrong. Allowing you to teach among men in a generalized setting is perfectly fine. There is nothing wrong with a woman teaching so long as it is not done in a position of authority within the structure of Christ's Church.

 

[rojoloco]

That is a strong statement for you to make...hope it works out for you.

For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 1Corinthians 2:11

I have the easy part. I just have to quote Paul and be done with it. Because you are coming from a different perspective, you are the one to bear the burden of proof. Because Scripture it never wrong, you'll have to take it up with God.

I'd be more than happy to hear your verses that you feel refute my sermon. However, I will not entertain personal feelings of resentment nor will I entertain any notion of the feminist movement when it so contradicts the Word of God. Not saying you have either one. Just stating my disclaimer when inviting open discussion. Whatever is presented to me, let it be from Scripture.

 

[Giggles4God]

I praise God that I am listening to him.

I praise God that I am to submit to MY husband, not someone else's.

I praise God that I can read the Bible and see for myself what it says and not take that which someone says "Thus says the Lord"...I am a good Berean.

I praise God that I can live my life to the best of my ability and that includes teaching and preaching to the multitude.


Have you ever listened to a female pastor preach? Have you given her you attention without saying "she's wrong because...such and such.." but REALLY listened?

I have learned SO much from both male and female pastors that I can't for the life of me want to turn back time and erase what I have learned.


I am going to step back now for a bit...I may be back, but I'm not promising anything.

 

[rojoloco]

I praise God that I am listening to him.

I praise God that I am to submit to MY husband, not someone else's.

I praise God that I can read the Bible and see for myself what it says and not take that which someone says "Thus says the Lord"...I am a good Berean.

I praise God that I can live my life to the best of my ability and that includes teaching and preaching to the multitude.


Have you ever listened to a female pastor preach? Have you given her you attention without saying "she's wrong because...such and such.." but REALLY listened?

I have learned SO much from both male and female pastors that I can't for the life of me want to turn back time and erase what I have learned.


I am going to step back now for a bit...I may be back, but I'm not promising anything.

All I hear in this is, "I'm going to do what I think is best for the people" instead of what I should hear of, "I'm going to submit to the role God designed for me even if I would be happier elsewhere." God clearly laid out specific roles. The guidelines for these roles is also very clear. If you are doing what it sounds like you are doing, though it may be good in your mind, Paul calls it shameful and says you might as well be as ashamed as a prostitute. You are taking your own opinion of what is good and are placing it over what God says is His proper order. It was a tough message that needed to be taught back in the time of Paul and it is a tough lesson that needs to be taught in modern Corinth (USA). We are much like them in our arrogance and refusal to submit if it makes us out to appear to be less. This is arrogance at its finest.

 

[Giggles4God]

You, sir, don't know me. So, you assume much in your statement.

You attack me instead of asking me if this is what I mean. You assume the worst instead of trying to see me for who God has made me.

I am offend, yes.

You have no idea what my life has been and how God has helped me through it. So, please, try to put yourself in my shoes for a moment.

I submit myself to God. I am saying that I praise God for him allowing me to use the gifts he has given me to preach and teach those who will listen to HIS Word in me and not see me as a woman who should be put in her place.

I grieve for the fact that so many women in history and now are being told to NOT follow God's call on their life because of someone who tells them it wasn't God because it goes against something people see as true in the Word of God.

I can agree to disagree in this because it isn't going to shake my ground and who I see God to be. I will not place God in a box. Who am I to say God will not use who He will to preach His Word?

God is a God of mysteries. I will say that I know all of God's plans. I can only see what is written.

Do you know who Deborah in the Bible was? She was a judge...

Or how about Anna? A prophetess.

Yes, they may not have preached, but they were important figures in history.


My husband made the comment once that this topic isn't as important as ones that say Jesus isn't God. I have to agree with him, but this seems to be a topic where The Church is kind of stuck.

Is it me that you are trying to wound or is it the fact that I don't believe as you do?

I may not believe as you, but did I attack you? If I have, I'm sorry for offending you.

I meant no disrespect and I certainly didn't mean to be arrogant.


If we are equals in God's eyes, as you said in your original post, why are you treating me as dirt or any other woman?

I am trying not to feel like a victim. I've been there and done that.

If you truly want to know me, I'll share, but I'm not going to be made to feel a victim again.


You didn't answer my question in my earlier post.


Since my husband gives me the chance to preach and he is over me, that is wrong then?

I take submitting seriously.

My husband once told me that I submit to authority very well. Take that as you will.


I believe I have said all that I will say for now. This is one of those topics that goes in circles and nothing is gained by it, but when I am seen in a light that I am far from, I will *sigh*. I know I need to let God fight for me...but I seem to be a fixer...


Lord Jesus, help me. I am at your disposal to do what you wish. Help me to submit to you and to not get offended so quickly.

 

[rojoloco]

G4G, I am not trying to offend. If I offended you, as it appears I have, I apologize. However, I take this topic very seriously. Based on our responses to me, I have a fairly clear picture of why this is a tough topic for you. You appear to have been mistreated in the past. You appear to have been seen in a lesser light for being a woman. You appear to believe men who say a woman should not do something are chauvinists. I may be wrong but I believe these are safe assumptions based on your reply.

I am aware of the uses of females in the Old Testament. They are very rare of they have happened. However, we also see why they happened and how they were far from the norm and did not violate Paul's teaching in any way. However, what you have proposed is completely outside of Paul's teaching.

You are also being slighty blurry in your description of what it is your husband allows you to do. Instead, I will ask you a question. Do you believe a female should be allowed to be a pastor of a church? If the answer is yes, how do you reconcile this belief to the plethora of verses I gave above as well as with Paul's very clear teaching in 1 Corinthians?

 

[benfaust]

Submission

Howdy. I'm Giggles4God's husband. To be more specific about our ministry and Giggle's role, we lead a church gathering which is structured just like any church. There have been times in which the Lord has placed something on her heart to share with the congregation. She presented it to me first, and, under my authority, then shared it with the church body.

Paul's teachings concerning women include submission to current religious laws (which we are always to obey unless they instruct us to violate God's laws and which no longer prohibit a woman from preaching) and both symbolic and actual submission to the authority structure God has put in place.

Giggle's "title" (titles are sometimes a necessary evil) is Women's Pastor. For some time, she led a Women's Bible study group. That has been changed to a "coed" Bible study which we both lead together.

If you believe the head covering issue, for example, means that in today's culture women must put a physical covering (the symbol of authority) over their heads when praying or prophecying, then you should definitely follow your conscience and preach it when you believe God is leading you to do so.

If, on the other hand, we believe the Word of God is not prohibiting a women who is completely under proper authority from getting up and sharing Biblical insight with the congregation, and we believe God has given my wife a word to share, then we would be sinning if we were to instead put duct tape over her mouth and throw a towel over her head.

If a women has honestly searched the Scriptures, studying diligently, and believes those passages are not forbidding a women, under proper authority, from taking a pastorial role in a church, and she believes God has instructed her to do so, then, according to the principle in Romans 14:23, she would be sinning if she were to do otherwise.

That being said, if a women were to get up in a church whose leadership teaches that these passages literally mean that women can only pray and prophecy in church, nothing else, and she were to insist on doing something outside those bounds, she would be rebelling against the authority in that house and would be sinning. So for your congregation, I would say nothing. On the other hand, this forum includes people from many congregations, some of whom at least believe they are obeying direct orders from God which conflict with what you believe the Bible teaches.

Honestly, there are very compelling arguments in both directions, neither of which diminish the absolute authority of the Word of God, and each person should study for themselves and be convinced in their own hearts and minds, and obey what they believe the Word of God says and what the Spirit of God is telling them to do, regardless of the contrary convictions of others.

 

[Veracity]

I have the easy part. I just have to quote Paul and be done with it. Because you are coming from a different perspective, you are the one to bear the burden of proof. Because Scripture it never wrong, you'll have to take it up with God.

I'd be more than happy to hear your verses that you feel refute my sermon. However, I will not entertain personal feelings of resentment nor will I entertain any notion of the feminist movement when it so contradicts the Word of God. Not saying you have either one. Just stating my disclaimer when inviting open discussion. Whatever is presented to me, let it be from Scripture.

You seriously need to get over yourself. I can't really see that anyone would be able to present anything to you without your presumptuous attitude taking over, for debate, discussion or otherwise. I am NOT a feminist.

Oppression is not a fruit by the way.

 

[Trisha]

Well, this is what I find. Men listen to a male preacher. They don't seem to listen to a woman as well. So that may be why it was delegated to men to preach. On the other hand women love to hear a woman preach. Back in Bible times men preached to men. A woman would not be listened to anyway, and maybe not even by other women. Their's was a patriarchal society. Now everyone has freedom of speech and personally a woman preacher, such as Joyce Meyer, has alot to share with and teach other women. I cannot see Jesus seeing it as sinning if it draws people closer to Him.

 

[Giggles4God]

There is really no point in me answering your questions. I say that because first off, you have yet to answer my questions and secondly, to me, this topic is just going in circles.

So, as for me, I believe I am done here. I can't change your mind and you can't change mine.

And I feel NO conviction whatsoever from Holy Spirit with regards to my beliefs of women in leadership...and I know what that Holy Spirit conviction feels like.

 

[rojoloco]

You seriously need to get over yourself. I can't really see that anyone would be able to present anything to you without your presumptuous attitude taking over, for debate, discussion or otherwise. I am NOT a feminist.

Oppression is not a fruit by the way.

lol. Apparently, you didn't even bother to read the part immediately following what ou highlighted. You claim I have a presumptious attitude yet you presumptiously post with a defense (even though there was no attack) when the disclaimer which stated I was not accusing you of being a feminist immediately followed. I'm going to say you didn't bother to read that because you then go to on declare that you are not a feminist when I just got done saying that was not necessaril the case. Good grief. Maybe you are the one that needs to get over yourself and instead open up for some Biblical discussion that isn't fueled by emotional outbursts. Thanks.

 

[rojoloco]

Howdy. I'm Giggles4God's husband. To be more specific about our ministry and Giggle's role, we lead a church gathering which is structured just like any church. There have been times in which the Lord has placed something on her heart to share with the congregation. She presented it to me first, and, under my authority, then shared it with the church body.

Paul's teachings concerning women include submission to current religious laws (which we are always to obey unless they instruct us to violate God's laws and which no longer prohibit a woman from preaching) and both symbolic and actual submission to the authority structure God has put in place.

Giggle's "title" (titles are sometimes a necessary evil) is Women's Pastor. For some time, she led a Women's Bible study group. That has been changed to a "coed" Bible study which we both lead together.

If you believe the head covering issue, for example, means that in today's culture women must put a physical covering (the symbol of authority) over their heads when praying or prophecying, then you should definitely follow your conscience and preach it when you believe God is leading you to do so.

If, on the other hand, we believe the Word of God is not prohibiting a women who is completely under proper authority from getting up and sharing Biblical insight with the congregation, and we believe God has given my wife a word to share, then we would be sinning if we were to instead put duct tape over her mouth and throw a towel over her head.

If a women has honestly searched the Scriptures, studying diligently, and believes those passages are not forbidding a women, under proper authority, from taking a pastorial role in a church, and she believes God has instructed her to do so, then, according to the principle in Romans 14:23, she would be sinning if she were to do otherwise.

That being said, if a women were to get up in a church whose leadership teaches that these passages literally mean that women can only pray and prophecy in church, nothing else, and she were to insist on doing something outside those bounds, she would be rebelling against the authority in that house and would be sinning. So for your congregation, I would say nothing. On the other hand, this forum includes people from many congregations, some of whom at least believe they are obeying direct orders from God which conflict with what you believe the Bible teaches.

Honestly, there are very compelling arguments in both directions, neither of which diminish the absolute authority of the Word of God, and each person should study for themselves and be convinced in their own hearts and minds, and obey what they believe the Word of God says and what the Spirit of God is telling them to do, regardless of the contrary convictions of others.

Welcome to the discussion. Now that was a nice and structured post I can appreciate. I do have some disagreements while I also share many agreements. One area we can agree on is the use of your ministry as a husband and wife. It appears she is submitting to you and your leadership and seeking permission before sharing with the congregation. There is nothing wrong with this type of thing as there is no authority being placed on her over the male congregants. She is simply sharing under the authority of here husband. This is the part that I said was blurry and was not being described clearly at all.

However, one part I would have to disagree on is the way you make Scripture seem relative and not absolute. You said a few times that so long as one feels called by God, we are not to question their actions because it would be sinning. Maybe I misunderstood you but I believe we are called to rebuke others even if they are under the best of intentions if it goes against the Word. Paul is clear in 1 Corinthians 11:16 that the teaching of a woman not having authority over male congregants is not just a cultural issue nor is it a local issue of a particular congregation. He boldly states that there is no other practice among ALL the churches of God. That was not a standard made by men but a standard of God as a symbol of headship and submission that we are not to branch out of. If this were not true, Paul would have been wrong to confront the people of Corinth. Instead of saying how he did it while leaving them to their own practice of females who were leading, he rebukes them and tells them there is no other practice among the churches of God. Not much room for conscience there. It appears you are doing it correctly from what you have said but I am still fuzzy about what is being done.