Global Warning

[Bill]

The rapture is the resurrection for all believers. When that time comes the graves will open and the resurrected bodies will meet the Lord in the air, as Paul said. It's a sure thing, the only debate is the timing.

There will be no place on earth to escape the tribulation that comes at that time, it will be the worst the world has ever seen. the only way out is to be taken completely out through the rapture.

When this happens the "times of the Gentiles" is over, the Church Age is over. Now the Jews are saved, all of them, as Paul has said. A new Age begins with the 1000 year reign of Christ, and Israel will be the supreme nation on earth.

This argument has existed since Paul wrote it, and will continue until Christ comes and we see exactly what takes place.

The only time that we will leave the planet is when Jesus returns and not before. We will all go through the tribulation, just like Noah went through the flood.

 

[Charlie24]

The only time that we will leave the planet is when Jesus returns and not before. We will all go through the tribulation, just like Noah went through the flood.

Well, we disagree again. The truth is, there's just not enough info in the Scripture for us to nail it down.

Personally, I have enough info to have a strong belief the rapture/resurrection will take place either before the 7 year tribulation or at the mid-point.

We know for sure there is a 1000 years period of time (the reign of Christ) between the first and second resurrections.

When Paul said there will be a resurrection of the just and the unjust, he was speaking of 2 separate resurrections, as clearly seen in Revelation.

 

[B-A-C]

Personally, I have enough info to have a strong belief the rapture/resurrection will take place either before the 7 year tribulation or at the mid-point.

I have never seen any scripture to support a pre-trib rapture. But several that support a post-trib. But I have a question about this. Who are the 'elect' to you?

Matt 24:29; "But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Matt 24:30; "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.
Matt 24:31; "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

Mark 13:24; "But in those days, after that tribulation, THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT,
Mark 13:25; AND THE STARS WILL BE FALLING from heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens will be shaken.
Mark 13:26; "Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN CLOUDS with great power and glory.
Mark 13:27; "And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven.

In both these passages, it says he will gather up the elect "after" the tribulation.

2Thes 2:2; that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
2Thes 2:3; Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
2Thes 2:4; who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.

The rapture won't happen until great apostacy, and the beast is revealed.

 

[Charlie24]

I have never seen any scripture to support a pre-trib rapture. But several that support a post-trib. But I have a question about this. Who are the 'elect' to you?

There are 2 elects spoken of in Scripture. First and foremost, Israel is the elect of God, even though they are lost as a nation.

Isaiah 45:4

“For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.”

Israel is the elect of God as chosen for a specific work in this world, they failed but will fulfill that calling in the future.

And of course, the elect of God are all who are in Christ. But there is a distinction between Israel the elect and those who are in Christ.

 

[B-A-C]

When Paul said there will be a resurrection of the just and the unjust, he was speaking of 2 separate resurrections, as clearly seen in Revelation.

Probably right, but there won't be 3. Believers and unbelievers, OK I can go with that.
But believers, Jews, and unbelievers? No, I don't think so.

 

[Charlie24]

Probably right, but there won't be 3. Believers and unbelievers, OK I can go with that.
But believers, Jews, and unbelievers? No, I don't think so.

Then we agree, it is a resurrection of all the believers and a separate resurrection for the lost.

There is a separation of 1000 years of these resurrections.

Also there are phases to the first resurrection, generally 3 but one could argue as many as 5.

The first resurrection in phases are all the believers.

 

[Charlie24]

Then we agree, it is a resurrection of all the believers and a separate resurrection for the lost.

There is a separation of 1000 years of these resurrections.

Also there are phases to the first resurrection, generally 3 but one could argue as many as 5.

The first resurrection in phases are all the believers.

Some may be wondering what is this about phases of the first resurrection.

Technically speaking the first phase is the firstfruits of the resurrection, the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Second comes the rapture that Paul explains in 1st and 2nd Thes.

Third is the resurrection of the 144, 000.

Fourth is the resurrection of the 2 witnesses.

Fifth is the resurrection of dead at Christs' return, all who died in the faith during the tribulation.

All of these are the phases of the First resurrection.

There will be only one resurrection of the lost, called the Second resurrection.

 

[B-A-C]

Some may be wondering what is this about phases of the first resurrection.

Technically speaking the first phase is the firstfruits of the resurrection, the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Second comes the rapture that Paul explains in 1st and 2nd Thes.

Third is the resurrection of the 144, 000.

Fourth is the resurrection of the 2 witnesses.

Fifth is the resurrection of dead at Christs' return, all who died in the faith during the tribulation.

All of these are the phases of the First resurrection.

I see no scripture to support any of this, however it's all one rapture, then you don't have to have 4 other raptures.
The Bible doesn't mention 3 or 4 raptures, and it doesn't mention phases of a single rature.
All believers get raptured at the same time.

 

[Charlie24]

I see no scripture to support any of this, however it's all one rapture, then you don't have to have 4 other raptures.
The Bible doesn't mention 3 or 4 raptures, and it doesn't mention phases of a single rature.
All believers get raptured at the same time.

Christ, the 144,00, and the 2 witnesses cannot be in one resurrection, but they are a part (phases) of the one resurrection for the believers. Just as the rapture is a phase of the "first resurrection."

Rev. 20:6
"Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

The "first resurrection" is all who were resurrected from the dead in Christ. This resurrection began with Christ, the first-fruits of the resurrection, and will continue on till the final phase at His Second Coming.

 

[B-A-C]

The "first resurrection" is all who were resurrected from the dead in Christ. This resurrection began with Christ, the first-fruits of the resurrection

Not according to the Bible.

2Tim 2:16; But avoid worldly and empty chatter, for it will lead to further ungodliness,
2Tim 2:17; and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus,
2Tim 2:18; men who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and they upset the faith of some.

Was this written before or after Jesus ascended back into heaven?

No resurrection until the last trumpet.

1Cor 15:51; Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
1Cor 15:52; in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

Not multiple resurrections for believers, not multiple trumpets. Not multiple "last days". The same trumpet mentioned at the rapture.

Matt 24:31; "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

John 6:39; "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.
John 6:40; "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."
John 6:44; "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
John 6:54; "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.

John 11:24 Martha *said to Him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day."

1Thes 4:16; For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
1Thes 4:17; Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

Even the dead Christians don't get resurrected until the "last day" when the trumpet sounds.

 

[Dave M]

THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds,

the four winds from what I know of stands for the earth

 

[Charlie24]

Not according to the Bible.

2Tim 2:16; But avoid worldly and empty chatter, for it will lead to further ungodliness,
2Tim 2:17; and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus,
2Tim 2:18; men who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and they upset the faith of some.

Was this written before or after Jesus ascended back into heaven?

No resurrection until the last trumpet.

1Cor 15:51; Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
1Cor 15:52; in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

Not multiple resurrections for believers, not multiple trumpets. Not multiple "last days". The same trumpet mentioned at the rapture.

Matt 24:31; "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

John 6:39; "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.
John 6:40; "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."
John 6:44; "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
John 6:54; "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.

John 11:24 Martha *said to Him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day."

1Thes 4:16; For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
1Thes 4:17; Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

Even the dead Christians don't get resurrected until the "last day" when the trumpet sounds.

What is the "last trumpet? It is the signal to the end of the Church age, the saints are taken out of this world.

It's obvious this has not taken place yet. Other than the resurrection of Christ, all the resurrections are yet to come.

But as I have said, they are phases of the First Resurrection.

 

[TheWordIsOne]

The beginning of sorrows.
Been happening for a while.
I personally wouldn’t worry until the rapture which comes first. If you’re still here then….time to worry

The hour of trials

​

Revelation 2:29 (NKJV) He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches." '

Revelation 2:10 Do not fear any of those things you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation in ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.

"Revelation 2:7 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God." '

Revelation 2:17 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give some of the hidden manna to eat. And I will give him a white stone, and on the stone, a new name written which no one knows except him who receives it." '

Revelation 3:13 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches." '

Revelation 2:11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.
He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death." '

Revelation 3:5-6 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life, but I will confess his name before My Father and His angels.
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches." '

 

[TheWordIsOne]

The Great Apostasy

The Falling away fist then?​

Thessalonians 2:3-4 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 2

In the end time, some Christians will fall away as we read in these passages

Matthew 13:25 but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way.

Matthew 24:23-25 (KJV) Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Behold, I have told you before.

2 Corinthians 11:13-15 (KJV) For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
And no marvel; Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

 

[Bill]

Christ, the 144,00, and the 2 witnesses cannot be in one resurrection, but they are a part (phases) of the one resurrection for the believers. Just as the rapture is a phase of the "first resurrection."

Rev. 20:6
"Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

The "first resurrection" is all who were resurrected from the dead in Christ. This resurrection began with Christ, the first-fruits of the resurrection, and will continue on till the final phase at His Second Coming.

The scripture reference of the 144,000 is not talking about only 144,000 people that are going to be raptured or something crazy like that. It's talking about those who are being called to preach to the world. And there is definitely some significance to the number 144,000. But we have to remember that that number is also a number representing many more. Like Peter asking Jesus how many times shall I forgive and the response was seven times 70. It's not saying that only 7 times 70 Jesus is saying we should always forgive. So that simple number of 144,000 means much more than that. And if you look at the very next line in the same scripture paragraph it's talking about an immense number greater than anyone can count

 

[Hekuran]

The scripture reference of the 144,000 is not talking about only 144,000 people that are going to be raptured or something crazy like that. It's talking about those who are being called to preach to the world. And there is definitely some significance to the number 144,000. But we have to remember that that number is also a number representing many more. Like Peter asking Jesus how many times shall I forgive and the response was seven times 70. It's not saying that only 7 times 70 Jesus is saying we should always forgive. So that simple number of 144,000 means much more than that. And if you look at the very next line in the same scripture paragraph it's talking about an immense number greater than anyone can count

Yes. In Revelation there's often a dramatic contrast between what John hears and what he sees. The 144000 is also an incalculable multitude


Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.

And

After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb.

 

[Charlie24]

The scripture reference of the 144,000 is not talking about only 144,000 people that are going to be raptured or something crazy like that. It's talking about those who are being called to preach to the world. And there is definitely some significance to the number 144,000. But we have to remember that that number is also a number representing many more. Like Peter asking Jesus how many times shall I forgive and the response was seven times 70. It's not saying that only 7 times 70 Jesus is saying we should always forgive. So that simple number of 144,000 means much more than that. And if you look at the very next line in the same scripture paragraph it's talking about an immense number greater than anyone can count

It's my opinion the 144,000 are all Jews from the 12 tribes. The innumerable crowd associated with the 144, 000 are from all the nations, in other words, Gentiles.

The 144, 000 have a specific role to fill, and I believe there are exactly 144,000 from the 12 tribes, all Jews. How that happens, I have no idea.

 

[lentz]

It's my opinion the 144,000 are all Jews from the 12 tribes. The innumerable crowd associated with the 144, 000 are from all the nations, in other words, Gentiles.

The 144, 000 have a specific role to fill, and I believe there are exactly 144,000 from the 12 tribes, all Jews. How that happens, I have no idea.

I believe scripture says 12 from each tribe.
It’s really no mystery.