God loves everybody?
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HeIsMyFather
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Each person must make the choice to be saved. God doesn't force it on you, you must decide whether you believe in Jesus Christ, that he was crucified for our sins and was resurrected on the third day as proof of his victory over death, hell and the grave.
God gave us free will and as such it is each person's decision to believe or not.
God gave us free will and as such it is each person's decision to believe or not.
but how can our corrupted free will be capable of choosing? i cannot see how it is possible t choose christ unless he has first chose us. if i walked up to unregenerate man on the street and gave him a choice, he would choose his own way every time unless god did something. i know i would not have chose god because every fiber of being was in complete and total rebellion against him. we are all like this because of our Sinful Nature
SpiritLedEd
Member
You're headed in the right direction, cman77, but you're not quite lined up with the runway. In John 6:44 Jesus says, "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him." The question, then, is how does one get on the Father's invitation list? That answer is in v45:"It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God. (Is 54:13)'. Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from Him comes to me."
The bottom line is that God draws everyone who is a serious seeker of spiritual truth to Himself through Jesus.
SLE
OnceWasLost
Member
That's what I believe too. Jesus said "Ask, and you will receive. Search, and you will find. Knock, and the door will be opened for you. Everyone who asks will receive. The one who searches will find, and for the one who knocks, the door will be opened." (Matthew 7:7-8)
Very interesting topic!
Cman77. I have a little doubt myself! Does God know everybody. If Jesus would give an answer one day to some people saying these words.... Form Matthew 7:23.. I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Well if Jesus did know them, and he says these words He would be a liar. And we know He cannot lie, so this is true He never knew them, the ones that work iniquity!
I know some bright-spark would come and say He never knew them intimately, and that would suggest Jesus does not know the word intimate, or that Jesus does not know how to express Himself. Well I would rather believe that Jesus
never knew them, because they never met Him, and He never met them. And if you read the surrounding text, you will see that these people would start an argument, and that they performed many miricles in His Name.
Now another interesting fact, if Jesus never knew them who did the miricles? I know because i was there Personally! Satan did! And he had me believe it was Jesus! Does Jesus know me now? I am not sure, unlike 2.2 billion other people I do not want to make any person sorry that he knew a Christian!
I do not want to be so high on my horse that i would say Jesus knows me and i know Him, and I am a liar! I would rather say, I would love to be known by Him, and i would never lie to say, that i am being taught by the Teacher. But this I believed when I was wrong, and who is to say I am right now?
I would rather be a sinner that people admire because of the good life I lead, than a self confessed Christian that sins and hate his brothers! Oh all sin is a form of hate! So if you sin against another or God or yourself it is a hateful act.
So does God know everybody, I believe Jesus does not know people that work iniquity. But the ones that does the will of the Father, them He knows well!
Now some may ask what about the babies, does God not make all babies? The answer... John 3:6... That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
And between the two red peices on this qoute, lies a lot of wisdom and I suspect controversy, but Jesus knows what He is talking about, and if we know Him and He us, we would know this is true!
May I please know Him, and see Him! The father says one more thing.... The ones that sin never saw Him neither did they know Him! 1 Joh 3. And One more thing... to Know The Father and Jesus is everlasting life! John 17. It looks like it is a mutual thing! God only knows the ones that knows Him and they are not sinners! WOW! Maybe the Bible / Jesus is right. Be perfect...Matthew 5:48.
Well I do not have a will, and if I had, may His will be done in my life/death, not mine!
Amen!
Cman77. I have a little doubt myself! Does God know everybody. If Jesus would give an answer one day to some people saying these words.... Form Matthew 7:23.. I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Well if Jesus did know them, and he says these words He would be a liar. And we know He cannot lie, so this is true He never knew them, the ones that work iniquity!
I know some bright-spark would come and say He never knew them intimately, and that would suggest Jesus does not know the word intimate, or that Jesus does not know how to express Himself. Well I would rather believe that Jesus
never knew them, because they never met Him, and He never met them. And if you read the surrounding text, you will see that these people would start an argument, and that they performed many miricles in His Name.
Now another interesting fact, if Jesus never knew them who did the miricles? I know because i was there Personally! Satan did! And he had me believe it was Jesus! Does Jesus know me now? I am not sure, unlike 2.2 billion other people I do not want to make any person sorry that he knew a Christian!
I do not want to be so high on my horse that i would say Jesus knows me and i know Him, and I am a liar! I would rather say, I would love to be known by Him, and i would never lie to say, that i am being taught by the Teacher. But this I believed when I was wrong, and who is to say I am right now?
I would rather be a sinner that people admire because of the good life I lead, than a self confessed Christian that sins and hate his brothers! Oh all sin is a form of hate! So if you sin against another or God or yourself it is a hateful act.
So does God know everybody, I believe Jesus does not know people that work iniquity. But the ones that does the will of the Father, them He knows well!
Now some may ask what about the babies, does God not make all babies? The answer... John 3:6... That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
And between the two red peices on this qoute, lies a lot of wisdom and I suspect controversy, but Jesus knows what He is talking about, and if we know Him and He us, we would know this is true!
May I please know Him, and see Him! The father says one more thing.... The ones that sin never saw Him neither did they know Him! 1 Joh 3. And One more thing... to Know The Father and Jesus is everlasting life! John 17. It looks like it is a mutual thing! God only knows the ones that knows Him and they are not sinners! WOW! Maybe the Bible / Jesus is right. Be perfect...Matthew 5:48.
Well I do not have a will, and if I had, may His will be done in my life/death, not mine!
Amen!
If someone was already forgiven and was partaking in God's love, there would be no need for an intercessor. They would already be covered. One is not forgiven but by the blood of Christ. Forgiveness is not out there for all otherwise all would be saved.
You're headed in the right direction, SpiritLedEd, but you're not quite lined up with the runway. The bottom line is that the only one who is a serious seeker of Jesus is the one whom God draws. Without God drawing us into the fold, we are all lost forever to sin.
Col 1:19&20 For God in all his fullness was pleased to live in Christ, and by him God reconciled everything to himself. He made peace with everything in heaven and on earth by means of his blood on the cross.
How do you interpret this scripture?
Sure thing. Well, we know not all people are reconciled to the Father in a saving way otherwise all people would be saved. We know this is not the case because Scripture is very clear that people will be going to Hell. We also know the only way to be reconciled to the Father is through the Son. This means we can scratch that interpretation off the list.
First, I will post the NASB translation:
Colossians 1:19-20 said:
In this present time only those who are given to the Son by the Father will be reconciled to the Father. However, there will come a time when every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. In that day, all things will be reconciled. Not all people will be saved but all people will submit to the authority of the Father. Even creation will submit when God does away with it all and created a new Heaven and a new Earth. The battle has already been won. All things are God's. It's just that not everybody knows it yet. Some will go to Heaven. Most will go to Hell. God will be glorified in all.
Boanerges
Member
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
This scripture declares God's heart towards the lost. It is His perfect will for mankind but not all will come.
Christ died for the sins of the whole world not just a "chosen few". Only those who will come can be saved.
Red emphasis mine:
1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
Predestination is according to foreknowledge. God does call, God does choose but does that according to foreknowledge of our choice.
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
This scripture declares God's heart towards the lost. It is His perfect will for mankind but not all will come.
Christ died for the sins of the whole world not just a "chosen few". Only those who will come can be saved.
Red emphasis mine:
1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
Predestination is according to foreknowledge. God does call, God does choose but does that according to foreknowledge of our choice.
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
That verse does not say anything about the call of God nor does it speak of all of humanity. It speaks of the Purpose of God.
The word used for the “wishing” is boulomai
The word most often used for the Call of God is kaleo
Boulomai is most often used when referring to the purposeful Will of God (Lk 22:42).
Luke 22:42 said:
It is not used to speak of general wants, desires or wishes. It is used to speak of decrees with purpose! Even more, we must look at the verse and not just focus on the one word.
2 Peter 1:1 said:
Peter wrote this letter to the Church. What do we see in the verse shown above? I'll show it again:
2 Peter 3:9 said:
This verse is directed toward believers. It is encouragement for believers everywhere. It is reaffirming God's love toward us, the Elect, whom He chose before the foundation of the world just as a potter forms clay. None of the Elect from Romans 9 will perish as we covered a few weeks back in our series on Calvinism.
Since we know the word boulomai is used to refer to God's purposeful Will, we can safely believe it is not saying God purposefully Wills that all will be saved and none go to Hell. Since the Greek here does not refer to the Call of God, we can safely believe it is not saying “all men are called but only certain ones are saved” as is a common belief of today. It says God purposefully Wills that none will perish. How can this be if we know people will in fact perish? It is because Peter was not speaking of the entire world. He was speaking of and to believers. No believer will perish so be encouraged and have faith in the Truth. Peter is reassuring us, as believers, that God will not let us perish. We will not have to face His wrath.
This is another misinterpretation of the word "world." We know world can sometimes refer to physical creation. Other time we see it used to describe humanity as a whole. Other times we see it used to describe every person in humanity individually. In the case above, it is humanity as a whole in a broad sense. If Christ was the propitiation for ever person individually, nobody would go to Hell because all would be forgiven. All would be justified. All would be considered innocent. This is a heresy that I do not think you are teaching. I just think you are one of the many thousands who do not properly understand what it means by the "world." I've explained why it cannot be everybody individually. It also cannot be the Earth. This only leaves one meaning and it means all of the Elect within the world. It is not just for Jews and not just for Gentiles but for everybody whom God has chosen before the foundation of the world regardless of heritage.
However, as I explained in my last post, there will be a day when all things will be reconciled to God in judgment.
Read the first line very carefully and see how well that aligns with your view. Does it say He foreknew all but only some will come? Not at all. Read it carefully. It says, "For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined...." In other words, everybody He foreknew, He predestined. Everybody. Period. This is all His doing. There was nothing in us. It was all in accordance with the foreknowledge of God but it was not God's knowledge of who would choose Him. He knew it because He ordained it to be so. God foreknew who would come to Him because He ordained it to be so before the foundation of the world.
How can I be so bold to say that nobody would come to Him if left to our own desires? It's because of John 8:44.
John 8:44a said:
Nobody chooses God of their own will. They gladly serve Satan. The only reason we are with God today is because He first called us and brought us into the fold. His doing, not mine. My thanks, His glory.
But thats not what this scripture says, your reading things into it.
Boanerges
Member
You are certainly entitled to your own interpretation and opinion my friend. Regardless of your opinion or mine it is the many who are called. The few chosen are the elect according to foreknowledge.
Mat 22:14 ForG1063 manyG4183 areG1526 called,G2822 butG1161 fewG3641 are chosen.G1588
From the Vines Expository Dictionary of the New Testament
Many
1. polus (G4183), "much, many great," is used especially of number when its significance is "many," e.g., Mat_8:30; Mat_9:10; Mat_13:17; so the RV of Mat_12:15, where some mss. follow the word by ochloi, "multitudes"; 1Co_12:12; Rev_1:15; it is more frequently used as a noun, "many (persons)," e.g., Mat_3:7; Mat_7:22; Mat_22:14; with the article, "the many," e.g., Mat_24:12, RV; Mar_9:26, RV, "the more part" (KJV "many"); Rom_5:15, Rom_5:19 (twice), RV; Rom_12:5; 1Co_10:17; 1Co_10:33, RV; so 2Co_2:17; in 1Co_11:30, RV, "not a few." In Luk_12:47 it is translated "many stripes," the noun being understood. See GREAT, MUCH.
Can man choose?
Jos 24:15 And ifH518 it seem evilH7489 unto youH5869 to serveH5647 (H853) the LORD,H3068 chooseH977 you this dayH3117 (H853) whomH4310 ye will serve;H5647 whetherH518 (H853) the godsH430 whichH834 your fathersH1 servedH5647 thatH834 were on the other sideH5676 of the flood,H5104 orH518 (H853) the godsH430 of the Amorites,H567 in whose landH776 yeH859 dwell:H3427 but as for meH595 and my house,H1004 we will serveH5647 (H853) the LORD.H3068
Deu 30:19 I callH5749 (H853) heavenH8064 and earthH776 to record this dayH3117 against you, that I have setH5414 beforeH6440 you lifeH2416 and death,H4194 blessingH1293 and cursing:H7045 therefore chooseH977 life,H2416 thatH4616 both thouH859 and thy seedH2233 may live:H2421
Can all come?
Mat 11:28 ComeG1205 untoG4314 me,G3165 allG3956 ye that labourG2872 andG2532 are heavy laden,G5412 and IG2504 will give you rest.G373 G5209
Note that the Greek word pas that is used here for all actually means all.:shade:
If it were not for God's grace my friend none could come. Jesus plainly sacrificed Himself for all:
1Jn 2:2 AndG2532 heG846 isG2076 the propitiationG2434 forG4012 ourG2257 sins:G266 andG1161 notG3756 forG4012 oursG2251 only,G3440 butG235 alsoG2532 forG4012 the sins of theG3588 wholeG3650 world.G2889
I do not expect us to agree on this but we can talk more about it when we are at His side.
shipwrecksoul
Member
Cman77
Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
Heb 12:25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:
We, all, everyone, anyone are loved by God can turn away from him that speaketh refusing the salvation of our souls!
Simple. They don't want to be. They don't feel the need to turn themselves over to a living God and trust Him in everything. I have seen many go up to an alter and claim to repent, they have even cried, but they lack sincerity. They want to play church for that moment, but they have no intention of turning from their sin, they have no intention of putting ALL trust in God to lead them, they never pick up a bible, they just simply are choosing to remain ignorant to the things of God, and don't have the "want to" to really seek His face....and God knows the heart, nothing is hidden from Him. Of course God loves them, but He is never changing so the rule, "the penalty of sin is death" will stand until they repent and turn themselves over to Him. He is a Holy God, and there is no place for them except what they have chosen, death.
I use my own family members as an example here, they call themselves Christians, they say they believe, but they really could care less except for playing church now and then. He may have drawn them at some point, but they rejected the truth, time and again.
My estranged husband calls himself a Christian, he says God has spoken to him....yet every word out of His mouth is using God's name like it is just a junk word to make what he has to say more important. Even though I have gone over the plan of salvation with him a thousand times, he remains stony ground. Like Judas there are just some people who will never 'get it', because it didn't fit into the way they thought it should be, God does not conform or perform to what they find important. Just vessels for evil I guess.
SpiritLedEd
Member
I'll ask the same question here that I asked you in another forum: What is the basis of God's decision making as to whom to chose if not His foreknowledge of how we will choose? Wouldn't any other basis be arbitrary and therefore a violation of His loving nature?
SLE
Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father that sent me draw him
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not the Son into the world to judge the world; but that the world should be saved through him.
Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not judged: he that believeth not hath been judged already, because he hath not believed on the name of the only begotten Son of God.
here is one great mystery or paradox if you will of the Church. on one hand we can't come unless the Father draws us. on the other it is given us the responsibility to believe on Him. perhaps the shortest answer that could be given in the space of this thread is the scripture listed below:
Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And he that heareth, let him say, Come. And he that is athirst, let him come: he that will, let him take the water of life freely.
Co 5:18 But all things are of God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ, and gave unto us the ministry of reconciliation;
2Co 5:19 to wit, that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself, not reckoning unto them their trespasses, and having committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
2Co 5:20 We are ambassadors therefore on behalf of Christ, as though God were entreating by us: we beseech you on behalf of Christ, be ye reconciled to God.
2Co 5:21 Him who knew no sin he made to be sin on our behalf; that we might become the righteousness of God in him.
i think the answer is very simple. God calls to all men through us just as He called on the apostles through Christ. we are His voice declaring the Word of the Kingdom which is "come whomsoever... and be forgiven, justified, and reconciled" just a thought although this doesn't really address the issue of predestination which is not where i want to go at the moment. suffice to say that God loves the world and wants them all saved. 2 Peter 3:9 although not all will be.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not the Son into the world to judge the world; but that the world should be saved through him.
Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not judged: he that believeth not hath been judged already, because he hath not believed on the name of the only begotten Son of God.
here is one great mystery or paradox if you will of the Church. on one hand we can't come unless the Father draws us. on the other it is given us the responsibility to believe on Him. perhaps the shortest answer that could be given in the space of this thread is the scripture listed below:
Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And he that heareth, let him say, Come. And he that is athirst, let him come: he that will, let him take the water of life freely.
Co 5:18 But all things are of God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ, and gave unto us the ministry of reconciliation;
2Co 5:19 to wit, that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself, not reckoning unto them their trespasses, and having committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
2Co 5:20 We are ambassadors therefore on behalf of Christ, as though God were entreating by us: we beseech you on behalf of Christ, be ye reconciled to God.
2Co 5:21 Him who knew no sin he made to be sin on our behalf; that we might become the righteousness of God in him.
i think the answer is very simple. God calls to all men through us just as He called on the apostles through Christ. we are His voice declaring the Word of the Kingdom which is "come whomsoever... and be forgiven, justified, and reconciled" just a thought although this doesn't really address the issue of predestination which is not where i want to go at the moment. suffice to say that God loves the world and wants them all saved. 2 Peter 3:9 although not all will be.
It is very much so what Scripture says...when interpreted with the rest of Scripture. Proper hermeneutics is important in an exegetical study of the text at hand.
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