God Made You Sick to Teach You Something?

The Robster · Oct 29, 2010

Faith4Bride said:
I was out all day from here so alot was said I am going to make a couple posts to answer back.

Firstly it was mentioned that we are not in the same covenant as job and hosea. That is true (although all salvation is by faith). But even though that is true, God does not change. And He does not change how he deals with his children. I will admit that I find it sad that people beleive that God giving a chastening to His children is " child abuse". It is the job of parents to chasten their children- and sometimes that hurts- but if we, and God, does not do it then children will end up with the wicked.

But besides that, we can know for sure, that the way God deals with His children has not changed, and that the ways and means of Gods chastening of His children is the same from the OT to the NT for a couple reasons.

Firstly we cannot discount what the OT says about chastening because the NT quotes the OT to us about us recieving chastening from the Lord. Now if they recieved this from God and we are told the exact same quotes in our covenant repeated then we gain our understanding of it from the original quotes AND from what we see in the NT.

I am going to give a couple examples of the NT teaching chastening as something that can be sickness to show that indeed the nt teaching to us is the same as the ot teaching to them. So here is a couple examples:

1Cr 11:28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of [that] bread, and drink of [that] cup.
1Cr 11:29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
1Cr 11:30 For this cause many [are] weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
1Cr 11:31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
1Cr 11:32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

Here we are shown that if we examine ourselves( judge ourselves) we shall not be judged- because we will not then partake of the cup and bread unworthily.

BUT because people do not examine themselves many are weak and SICK and sleep. Paul goes on to tell us in vs 31 and 32 that if we dont judge ourselves then GOD will judge us and we will be chastened of the Lord so we dont get condemned with the world. This clearly connects Gods judgement and chastening to being weak sick and sleeping.

Here is another example.

Rev 2:20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
Rev 2:21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.
Rev 2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
Rev 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

Here God gives the woman time to repent but casts her into a sick bed AND those who go after her into great tribulation unless they repent. These are physical chastenings. Spoken to a church.

We can see from these examples that God does judge and chasten His children who do not judge themselves and who need to repent. This is not abuse it is what we need to keep us from hell.

I am going to make another post on the other point addressed before

I'm sorry but you have completely misunderstood what Paul was talking about in 1 Corinthians 11. The entire Chapter is about Corinthians not discernign what the Lord's Body is for during Communion. The entire context is about examining the manner in which yout ake Communion. Examining that you udnerstand what the body is for. Christians were becomign weak, sickly and dying prematurely because they were not discerning what the Lord's bodyw as for. Many churches are still doing this today. Telling peopel that Jesus' body was for the remission of sins when Jesus' body was broken for our healing and wholeness. Those Corinthians were not reaping the beenfits from the Lord's Supper because they made a nig joke out of Communion and they did not understand what the bread was for! The Holy Spirit even makes it a point to emntion that Paul was given this briefing on Comunion by Jesus! These Corinthians were coming together and getting drunk and some were just coming to eat the Lord's Supper because they were hungry. They were treating Communion not only irreverently but as a ritual. Communion is how Jesus delivers His supernatural health and wholeness into your body, if you take it in faith. Why do you think Jesus instituted the Lord's Supper on Passover? he was fulfilling OT prophecy right there. On the first Passover, we were shown a shadow of what Jesus would do. The Jews ate the Passover lamb and the following day every Jew left Israel supernaturally healed and whole. And they left with silver and gold. The church has lost this truth and has neglected to see that they can be healed of any sickness and disease through Communion. But you need to take it in faith, its not magic.

If you eat the bread and drink the cup in an unworthy manner, not discerning what those elements are for, then yes you drink judgement onto yourself. Its not judgement going to hell. Its the same kind of judgement the world is under because of the curse. So if you're sick and take Communion and don't discern what those elements are for, you will leave with your sickness. The Lord's Supper becomes of no effect. You do not receive the benfits of the Lord's Supper that Jesus intended for every believer to have. Look at the entire context of how Paul talked about it being rather shocking that MANY were weak, sickly and dying prematurely in the Corinthian church. And He talked about this in a shocking way because IT WAS NOT SUPPOSED TO BE HAPPENING TO CHRISTIANS. People have taken verse 31, have run wild with it and have completely missed that the entire chapter is about Paul chastising them because they are treating the Lord's Supper like a big joke and believers don't even know what the bread is for. His whole criticism focuses on the MANNER in which the person is taking Communion and whether they understand what the bread is for during communion. Millions of Christians today, like any other century, are weak, sickly and dying prematurely because they treat Communion like a ritual and don't discern the Lord's body. Many don't know what the body is for. We know the blood is for the forgiveness of sins and for establishing the New Covenant. But many do not understand that the body is for our HEALING and WHOLENESS. When the Bible says "By His Stripes we were Healed." The message is claer that its Jesus physical body that produced our healing. His body was broken and beaten for our healing. God is so merciful and compassionate, that for those who can't receive healing through the Prayer of faith, they can receive their healing through Communion. God has made provision for our different levels of faith. Receiving healing through Communion is different than receiving it by the prayer of faith. Every time you are partaking in Communion, you are getting a little bit better. However, some people have seen instantaneous healings manifest but its not the norm. It takes time in most cases for this sown seed to produce a 100 fold harvest.

Jesus was not joking around in John 6 when He said that whoever eats His flesh and drinks His blood will NEVER die! And He was not talking about spiritual chewing or eating. All the problems we have in the world and with sickness are a result from the first Adam eating from the wrong tree. By eating from the right tree, where the last Adam was broken, we can reverse these effects. That's not just your healing right there, that's your fountain of youth! That's Jesus' perfect health and wholeness you ingest during Communion, IF YOU TAKE IT IN FAITH. Even the Israelites had to observe the Passover in faith. We have the substance of what the Israelites only had a shadow of. We have the real McCoy at the Lord's table. If you're sick you should be taking it every day. Even 3xs a day like medicine. People do not give God the same respect for His things that they do for doctors. And its just like God to comfound the mighty with a piece of bread and a cup. Every Christian has a right to receive this blessing at the Lord's Supper. IT IS NOT A RITUAL! That's why Paul was so annoyed with them. They treated it like a joke and didn't discern what the bread was for. This is the only way Jesus instructed us to remember Him, yet many of us are lucky if we even take it once a week. Its no wonder so many Christians are sick and dying prematurely.

1 Corinthians 11:20-30 Amplified Bible

20So when you gather for your meetings, it is not the supper instituted by the Lord that you eat,

21For in eating each one [hurries] to get his own supper first [not waiting for the poor], and one goes hungry while another gets drunk.
22What! Do you have no houses in which to eat and drink? Or do you despise the church of God and mean to show contempt for it, while you humiliate those who are poor (have no homes and have brought no food)? What shall I say to you? Shall I commend you in this? No, [most certainly] I will not!
23For I received from the Lord Himself that which I passed on to you [it was given to me personally], that the Lord Jesus on the night when He was treacherously delivered up and while His betrayal was in progress took bread,

24And when He had given thanks, He broke [it] and said, Take, eat. This is My body, which is broken for you. Do this to call Me [affectionately] to remembrance.
25Similarly when supper was ended, He took the cup also, saying, This cup is the new covenant [ratified and established] in My blood. Do this, as often as you drink [it], to call Me [affectionately] to remembrance.
26For every time you eat this bread and drink this cup, you are representing and signifying and proclaiming the fact of the Lord's death until He comes [again].

27So then whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in a way that is unworthy [of Him] will be guilty of [profaning and sinning against] the body and blood of the Lord.

28Let a man [thoroughly] examine himself, and [only when he has done] so should he eat of the bread and drink of the cup.
29For anyone who eats and drinks without discriminating and recognizing with due appreciation that [it is Christ's] body, eats and drinks a sentence (a verdict of judgment) upon himself.

30THAT [CARELESS AND UNWORTHY PARTICIPATION] IS THE REASON many of you are weak and sickly, and quite enough of you have fallen into the sleep of death.

That's the only singular reason why MANY Christians are weak, sickly and dying prematurely. Those in unbelief are subject to the Curse of the Law so it should shock no one if they are sick. Sickness is a curse of the Law. But we are redeemed from the curse of the Law and the Lord's Supper is where we have missed it with our faith. There are incredible healings in so many churches in South east Asia taking place because believers there are taking Communion the way it was supposed to be taken.

SpiritLedEd · Oct 29, 2010

Faith4Bride said:
this word griefs in hebrew is literally sicknesses. and the word healed, literally means healed and is always used for when God physically healed someone.

Back to Strong's Concordance: The Greek word for grief can be translated malady, anxiety,or calamity. While malady usually refers to physical illness, anxiety is an emotional issue and calamity refers to any really bad event or situation, not just physical illness. "Literally sicknesses", therefore, does not necessarily mean "Literally physical sicknesses".

SLE

Faith4Bride · Oct 29, 2010

The Robster said:
I'm sorry but you have completely misunderstood what Paul was talking about in 1 Corinthians 11. The entire Chapter is about Corinthians not discernign what the Lord's Body is for during Communion. The entire context is about examining the manner in which yout ake Communion. Examining that you udnerstand what the body is for. Christians were becomign weak, sickly and dying prematurely because they were not discerning what the Lord's bodyw as for. Many churches are still doing this today. Telling peopel that Jesus' body was for the remission of sins when Jesus' body was broken for our healing and wholeness. Those Corinthians were not reaping the beenfits from the Lord's Supper because they made a nig joke out of Communion and they did not understand what the bread was for! The Holy Spirit even makes it a point to emntion that Paul was given this briefing on Comunion by Jesus! These Corinthians were coming together and getting drunk and some were just coming to eat the Lord's Supper because they were hungry. They were treating Communion not only irreverently but as a ritual. Communion is how Jesus delivers His supernatural health and wholeness into your body, if you take it in faith. Why do you think Jesus instituted the Lord's Supper on Passover? he was fulfilling OT prophecy right there. On the first Passover, we were shown a shadow of what Jesus would do. The Jews ate the Passover lamb and the following day every Jew left Israel supernaturally healed and whole. And they left with silver and gold. The church has lost this truth and has neglected to see that they can be healed of any sickness and disease through Communion. But you need to take it in faith, its not magic.

If you eat the bread and drink the cup in an unworthy manner, not discerning what those elements are for, then yes you drink judgement onto yourself. Its not judgement going to hell. Its the same kind of judgement the world is under because of the curse. So if you're sick and take Communion and don't discern what those elements are for, you will leave with your sickness. The Lord's Supper becomes of no effect. You do not receive the benfits of the Lord's Supper that Jesus intended for every believer to have. Look at the entire context of how Paul talked about it being rather shocking that MANY were weak, sickly and dying prematurely in the Corinthian church. And He talked about this in a shocking way because IT WAS NOT SUPPOSED TO BE HAPPENING TO CHRISTIANS. People have taken verse 31, have run wild with it and have completely missed that the entire chapter is about Paul chastising them because they are treating the Lord's Supper like a big joke and believers don't even know what the bread is for. His whole criticism focuses on the MANNER in which the person is taking Communion and whether they understand what the bread is for during communion. Millions of Christians today, like any other century, are weak, sickly and dying prematurely because they treat Communion like a ritual and don't discern the Lord's body. Many don't know what the body is for. We know the blood is for the forgiveness of sins and for establishing the New Covenant. But many do not understand that the body is for our HEALING and WHOLENESS. When the Bible says "By His Stripes we were Healed." The message is claer that its Jesus physical body that produced our healing. His body was broken and beaten for our healing. God is so merciful and compassionate, that for those who can't receive healing through the Prayer of faith, they can receive their healing through Communion. God has made provision for our different levels of faith. Receiving healing through Communion is different than receiving it by the prayer of faith. Every time you are partaking in Communion, you are getting a little bit better. However, some people have seen instantaneous healings manifest but its not the norm. It takes time in most cases for this sown seed to produce a 100 fold harvest.

Jesus was not joking around in John 6 when He said that whoever eats His flesh and drinks His blood will NEVER die! And He was not talking about spiritual chewing or eating. All the problems we have in the world and with sickness are a result from the first Adam eating from the wrong tree. By eating from the right tree, where the last Adam was broken, we can reverse these effects. That's not just your healing right there, that's your fountain of youth! That's Jesus' perfect health and wholeness you ingest during Communion, IF YOU TAKE IT IN FAITH. Even the Israelites had to observe the Passover in faith. We have the substance of what the Israelites only had a shadow of. We have the real McCoy at the Lord's table. If you're sick you should be taking it every day. Even 3xs a day like medicine. People do not give God the same respect for His things that they do for doctors. And its just like God to comfound the mighty with a piece of bread and a cup. Every Christian has a right to receive this blessing at the Lord's Supper. IT IS NOT A RITUAL! That's why Paul was so annoyed with them. They treated it like a joke and didn't discern what the bread was for. This is the only way Jesus instructed us to remember Him, yet many of us are lucky if we even take it once a week. Its no wonder so many Christians are sick and dying prematurely.

1 Corinthians 11:20-30 Amplified Bible

20So when you gather for your meetings, it is not the supper instituted by the Lord that you eat,

21For in eating each one [hurries] to get his own supper first [not waiting for the poor], and one goes hungry while another gets drunk.
22What! Do you have no houses in which to eat and drink? Or do you despise the church of God and mean to show contempt for it, while you humiliate those who are poor (have no homes and have brought no food)? What shall I say to you? Shall I commend you in this? No, [most certainly] I will not!
23For I received from the Lord Himself that which I passed on to you [it was given to me personally], that the Lord Jesus on the night when He was treacherously delivered up and while His betrayal was in progress took bread,

24And when He had given thanks, He broke [it] and said, Take, eat. This is My body, which is broken for you. Do this to call Me [affectionately] to remembrance.
25Similarly when supper was ended, He took the cup also, saying, This cup is the new covenant [ratified and established] in My blood. Do this, as often as you drink [it], to call Me [affectionately] to remembrance.
26For every time you eat this bread and drink this cup, you are representing and signifying and proclaiming the fact of the Lord's death until He comes [again].

27So then whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in a way that is unworthy [of Him] will be guilty of [profaning and sinning against] the body and blood of the Lord.

28Let a man [thoroughly] examine himself, and [only when he has done] so should he eat of the bread and drink of the cup.
29For anyone who eats and drinks without discriminating and recognizing with due appreciation that [it is Christ's] body, eats and drinks a sentence (a verdict of judgment) upon himself.

30THAT [CARELESS AND UNWORTHY PARTICIPATION] IS THE REASON many of you are weak and sickly, and quite enough of you have fallen into the sleep of death.

That's the only singular reason why MANY Christians are weak, sickly and dying prematurely. Those in unbelief are subject to the Curse of the Law so it should shock no one if they are sick. Sickness is a curse of the Law. But we are redeemed from the curse of the Law and the Lord's Supper is where we have missed it with our faith. There are incredible healings in so many churches in South east Asia taking place because believers there are taking Communion the way it was supposed to be taken.

I believe that in all this you have missed the scriptures which declare it to be the judgement and chastening of God. I said nothing about hell this is about Gods chastening of weaknes sickly and sleep-

1Cr 11:30 For this cause many [are] weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

1Cr 11:31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.

1Cr 11:32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

i am not talking about ritual etc.. that isnt the topic.

SpiritLedEd said:
Back to Strong's Concordance: The Greek word for grief can be translated malady, anxiety,or calamity. While malady usually refers to physical illness, anxiety is an emotional issue and calamity refers to any really bad event or situation, not just physical illness. "Literally sicknesses", therefore, does not necessarily mean "Literally physical sicknesses".

SLE

SLE- i ws not looking at the greek for grief because the prophesy is in isaiah and is hebrew. but this is what the new testament tells us about the fulfillment of the ot verse:

Mat 8:16 ¶ When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with [his] word, and healed all that were sick:

Mat 8:17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare [our] sicknesses.

El Hombre viejo · Oct 29, 2010

SpiritLedEd said:
Back to Strong's Concordance: The Greek word for grief can be translated malady, anxiety,or calamity. While malady usually refers to physical illness, anxiety is an emotional issue and calamity refers to any really bad event or situation, not just physical illness. "Literally sicknesses", therefore, does not necessarily mean "Literally physical sicknesses".

SLE

Ed What does the Word say?

Psalm 103:2-4 (King James Version)

2Bless the LORD, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits:
3Who forgiveth all thine iniquities; who healeth all thy diseases;
4Who redeemeth thy life from destruction; who crowneth thee with lovingkindness and tender mercies;

Luke 9:1-2 (King James Version)

Luke 9

1Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases.
2And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick.

So are we Jesus' disciples or not?

Faith4Bride · Oct 29, 2010

El Hombre viejo said:
Ed What does the Word say?

Psalm 103:2-4 (King James Version)

2Bless the LORD, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits:
3Who forgiveth all thine iniquities; who healeth all thy diseases;
4Who redeemeth thy life from destruction; who crowneth thee with lovingkindness and tender mercies;

Luke 9:1-2 (King James Version)

Luke 9

1Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases.
2And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick.

So are we Jesus' disciples or not?

AMEN

El Hombre viejo · Oct 29, 2010

Faith4Bride said:
AMEN

You say Amen Does that mean you agree that we as Jesus' disciples can command healing? That we have the authority to do so?

The Robster · Oct 29, 2010

Faith4Bride said:
I believe that in all this you have missed the scriptures which declare it to be the judgement and chastening of God. I said nothing about hell this is about Gods chastening of weaknes sickly and sleep-

1Cr 11:30 For this cause many [are] weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

1Cr 11:31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.

1Cr 11:32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

i am not talking about ritual etc.. that isnt the topic.

SLE- i ws not looking at the greek for grief because the prophesy is in isaiah and is hebrew. but this is what the new testament tells us about the fulfillment of the ot verse:

Mat 8:16 ¶ When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with [his] word, and healed all that were sick:

Mat 8:17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare [our] sicknesses.

The topic of this thread is about sickness and healing. And what you have missed in the scriptures that you cited from 1 Corinthians 11 is that Christians are failing to take advantage of all the benefits of the Lord's Supper. God wants His people well and has given us provision at the Lord's Supper so we will be strong, healthy and living long so WE DO NOT SUFFER THE SENTENCE AND JUDGEMENT OF SICKNESS WITH THE REST OF THE WORLD.

Verses 31 & 32 are NOT the reason why so many are weak, sickly and dying prematurely.

28Let a man [thoroughly] examine himself, and [only when he has done] so should he eat of the bread and drink of the cup.
29For anyone who eats and drinks without discriminating and recognizing with due appreciation that [it is Christ's] body, eats and drinks a sentence (a verdict of judgment) upon himself.

30THAT [CARELESS AND UNWORTHY PARTICIPATION] IS THE REASON many of you are weak and sickly, and quite enough of you have fallen into the sleep of death.

Verse 30 states that its the way people are taking Communion that is resulting in Christians in the Corinthian church becoming sick. That's the only reason. Verse 30 does not state, "That for not judging yourself you are judged and condemned with the world and for this reason many are weak, sickly and dying prematurely." Its talking about the manner in which people are taking Communion. And if we don't judge ourselves to insure that we are taking Communion properly and fully understanding what the elements are for then we will be condemned with the world as well and will remain weak, sickly and dying prematurely. The entire chapter is dedicated to the manner in which those Corinthians were taking Communion and failing to take advantage of those benefits because they didn't understand what the bread was for nor did they treat the Lord's Supper the way they were supposed to. God is not chastening anyone with sickness and disease. You can come to the Lord's Supper, as a believer, even if you have sin in your life.

jiggyfly · Oct 29, 2010

Faith4Bride said:
jiggyfly.

Paul's thorn in the flesh was a messenger of satan given to him by the Lord. It's purpose was to keep him humble but it was not a chastenment. It also did not cause any sickness in him but caused him to be persecuted everywhere he went. The original meaning of a thorn in the flesh is in the OT.

Where do you see that it caused him to be persecuted?

Faith4Bride · Oct 29, 2010

El Hombre viejo said:
You say Amen Does that mean you agree that we as Jesus' disciples can command healing? That we have the authority to do so?

Yes I do!Because the work is already accomplished. we already WERE healed. Commanding it done is like commanding the provision already given to become manifest. It is out authority to do so.-

However the person recieving it ( even ourselves) needs to BELIEVE. And repent IF they were in sin.

The Robster said:
The topic of this thread is about sickness and healing. And what you have missed in the scriptures that you cited from 1 Corinthians 11 is that Christians are failing to take advantage of all the benefits of the Lord's Supper. God wants His people well and has given us provision at the Lord's Supper so we will be strong, healthy and living long so WE DO NOT SUFFER THE SENTENCE AND JUDGEMENT OF SICKNESS WITH THE REST OF THE WORLD.

Verses 31 & 32 are NOT the reason why so many are weak, sickly and dying prematurely.

Verse 30 states that its the way people are taking Communion that is resulting in Christians in the Corinthian church becoming sick. That's the only reason. Verse 30 does not state, "That for not judging yourself you are judged and condemned with the world and for this reason many are weak, sickly and dying prematurely." Its talking about the manner in which people are taking Communion. And if we don't judge ourselves to insure that we are taking Communion properly and fully understanding what the elements are for then we will be condemned with the world as well and will remain weak, sickly and dying prematurely. The entire chapter is dedicated to the manner in which those Corinthians were taking Communion and failing to take advantage of those benefits because they didn't understand what the bread was for nor did they treat the Lord's Supper the way they were supposed to. God is not chastening anyone with sickness and disease. You can come to the Lord's Supper, as a believer, even if you have sin in your life.

I dont think you are reading my posts closely enough brother. I am saying that those who do not examine and judge themselves end up partaking of communion unworthily. THEN God will judge them and chasten them SO THEY DONT end up with the world.

I am saying that the being weak, sickly, and sleeping is the chastening and judgement the Lord gives to HIS people to save them from the worlds condemnation- WHEN His people have failed to examine and judge themselves and then partaken unworthily.
1Cr 11:28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of [that] bread, and drink of [that] cup.
1Cr 11:31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.

BUT if you do NOT examine yourself, and judge yourself THEN this happens:

1Cr 11:29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
1Cr 11:30 For this cause many [are] weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
1Cr 11:32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

Again to repeat. I am saying that IF we judge ourselves and examine ourselves we will not partake of the communion unworthily AND we shall not be judged.

BUT

If we do not examine and judge ourselves THEN God will judge and chasten us with our fault of partaking unworthily AND we will recieve from him " weakness sicklines and sleeping". These three things are the CHASTENING the Lord gives BECAUSE we failed to judge ourselves and He chastens us with these things so that our bodies are affected but so we will not go so far as having to be condemned with the world.

jiggyfly said:
Where do you see that it caused him to be persecuted?

2Cr 12:7 ¶ And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
buffet=1) to strike with the fist, give one a blow with the fist

2) to maltreat, treat with violence and contumely

2Cr 12:8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.
2Cr 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
2Cr 12:10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

Here we are told that what this messenger does to buffet him is " infirmities, reproaches necessities persecutions and distresses for Christs sake"

This word " infirmities" paul uses elsewhere not to mean sickness or something but for what has happened to him as far as persecutions etc.. But before i show that we see that the buffeting, in all these differnt ways is for CHRISTS SAKE.(and persecutions is listed of course)

AND this chapter IS the continuation of paul telling us what has happened to him.(sometimes we cannot let chapters make us beleive that the chapters arent connected or continued from each other)

2Cr 11:23 Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I [am] more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft.

2Cr 11:24 Of the Jews five times received I forty [stripes] save one.

2Cr 11:25 Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep;

2Cr 11:26 [In] journeyings often, [in] perils of waters, [in] perils of robbers, [in] perils by [mine own] countrymen, [in] perils by the heathen, [in] perils in the city, [in] perils in the wilderness, [in] perils in the sea, [in] perils among false brethren;

2Cr 11:27 In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness.

2Cr 11:28 Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches.

2Cr 11:29 Who is weak, and I am not weak? who is offended, and I burn not?

2Cr 11:30 If I must needs glory, I will glory of the things which concern mine infirmities.

2Cr 11:31 The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.

2Cr 11:32 In Damascus the governor under Aretas the king kept the city of the Damascenes with a garrison, desirous to apprehend me:

2Cr 11:33 And through a window in a basket was I let down by the wall, and escaped his hands.
2Cr 12:1 ¶ It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.

2Cr 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth

such an one caught up to the third heaven.

2Cr 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth

2Cr 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

2Cr 12:5 Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities.

2Cr 12:6 For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but [now] I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me [to be], or [that] he heareth of me.

2Cr 12:7 ¶ And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure

You get the point. These two chapters are a continuation of each other. Paul lists ALL the things that have befallen him which are all the persecutions and troubles ( not sicknesses) which have happened to Him for Christs sake- He says AM I WEAK? just as in chapter 12 he is told by God that his power is made perfect in weakness. Then after listing them all he says he glories in infirmities just as he says it in chapter 12.

So again all the things listed that have happened to him in chapter 11- are the cause of the messenger of satan given to buffet him that we see in chapter 12

El Hombre viejo · Oct 29, 2010

What if God says no?

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People often say Jesus never told anybody “No” when they needed help. Well honestly I know what they mean but they are wrong. There was this one woman…
Matt 15:21-28 Then Jesus went out from there and departed to the region of Tyre and Sidon. 22 And behold, a woman of Canaan came from that region and cried out to Him, saying, “Have mercy on me, O Lord, Son of David! My daughter is severely demon-possessed.” 23 But He answered her not a word. And His disciples came and urged Him, saying, “Send her away, for she cries out after us.” 24 But He answered and said, “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” 25 Then she came and worshiped Him, saying, “Lord, help me!” 26 But He answered and said, “It is not good to take the children’s bread and throw it to the little dogs.” 27 And she said, “Yes, Lord, yet even the little dogs eat the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table.” 28 Then Jesus answered and said to her, “O woman, great is your faith! Let it be to you as you desire.” And her daughter was healed from that very hour. (NKJV)
So this woman comes to Jesus and asks Him to help her daughter. What does Jesus do? He ignores her. But He answered her not a word. I know he didn’t directly say, “No” but ignoring somebody who is asking you for help is basically the same thing. So Jesus is ignoring her and the disciples are fed up with her. They even ask Jesus to send her away. They were telling her no, too. But she doesn’t give up. She keeps on asking. Eventually Jesus answers her: But He answered and said, “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” If this isn’t a “No” from Jesus, then what is? So now she has been ignored by God, rejected by His disciples and directly told no by Jesus Himself. Looks pretty bleak, right? Hold on, it gets worse.
She asks Him again. What is Jesus’ next answer? But He answered and said, “It is not good to take the children’s bread and throw it to the little dogs.” BAM! Another no? Is this woman just not getting it? Come on? Well, she got something, but what she got was something the disciples only realized in Acts 10. It took them years to figure out what this woman already knew. Look at her answer: And she said, “Yes, Lord, yet even the little dogs eat the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table.” Lets pause here and quickly make a few interesting connections:

She wanted healing and deliverance for her daughter.
Jesus says if He gave her that, He would be giving away the children’s BREAD.
Jesus likens healing to BREAD. When we take communion, we break the BREAD in remembrance of His body broken for us. By His stripes, by His broken body we were healed.
Jesus called Himself the BREAD of life.
He taught us to pray, “Give us this day our daily BREAD” Our daily life, our daily healing, our daily deliverance. Why daily? Because his mercies are new every morning! That’s why!

Ok let’s go on. This woman has now been ignored by Jesus, rejected by His disciples and directly told no twice by Jesus Himself. How many of you would have given up by this stage? Probably all of us. But she refuses to accept no as an answer. Why? Because she got the following revelation: Jesus is God and God is good. If Jesus is God and He is good then He will help me. If He doesn’t help me, then He is not good and therefore He is not God. Jesus was so impressed with her logic that he commended her for having great faith. Jesus only told two people that He was impressed with their faith. She was one of them. She got what she came to get. She asked God for something, was told no 4 times and left with what she asked for and with Jesus giving her praise! What did she realize that took the disciples until Acts 10? That the Gospel will reach the gentiles.
There is nothing that can stop the blessings of the sacrifice from coming your way. Not even God can say no to them (2 Cor 1:20). The only thing that hinders the power of God is you believing there is something hindering the power of God. This woman knew not even a no from Jesus could stop the power of God. She heard Jesus was setting people free. She heard the Gospel and placed her faith in the goodness of God. Change your mind to change your life. Decide whether you think God is good and follow some stubborn logic!
When you are sick and not receiving your answer, you need to become more stubborn than your sickness that is kicking hard against you. Dig in your heals and refuse to take no for an answer. Especially when the no is coming from you or the devil. God has said YES. If He said you are healed than your sickness is in direct violation of God’s will! Start cracking a whip and chase those thieves out of your temple!
Here is sample prayer you can use:

Faith4Bride · Oct 29, 2010

El Hombre viejo said:
When you are sick and not receiving your answer, you need to become more stubborn than your sickness that is kicking hard against you. Dig in your heals and refuse to take no for an answer. Especially when the no is coming from you or the devil. God has said YES. If He said you are healed than your sickness is in direct violation of God’s will! Start cracking a whip and chase those thieves out of your temple!
Here is sample prayer you can use:

I agree totally that this is true- IF - you are not being chastened :smile:

IF you are being chastened then you need to repent and confess and THEN do everything you said above!

and i agree you have to be more stubborn against it then it can fight.

SpiritLedEd · Oct 30, 2010

The Robster said:
30THAT [CARELESS AND UNWORTHY PARTICIPATION] IS THE REASON many of you are weak and sickly, and quite enough of you have fallen into the sleep of death.

Remember that in the firsr century church, The Lord's Supper was a gathering of the church for a full celebratory meal with wine. The Corinthian church members had only very recently left their idolatrous beliefs and practices which featured unfettered promiscuity, drinking, and gluttony and, as the saying goes, "Old habits die hard". God rarely interferes in the natural processes He created, especially when the peole involved don't yet see a need to change. These people had terrible health habits and God was allowing them to suffer the natural consequences of those habits.

SLE

soberxp · Oct 30, 2010

<TABLE class=forumline cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=4 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=row2 noWrap height=25>2Co 13:2 </TD><TD class=row2 width="99%">I told you before, and foretell you, as if I were present, the second time; and being absent now I write to them which heretofore have sinned, and to all other, that, if I come again, I will not spare: </TD></TR><TR><TD class=row1 noWrap height=25>2Co 13:3 </TD><TD class=row1 width="99%">Since ye seek a proof of Christ speaking in me, which to you-ward is not weak, but is mighty in you. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Brother Mike · Nov 2, 2010

Sickness builds Character..........

If sickness, and calamity were ever meant to teach us something from God, then we ought not to seek any Doctor and mess the will of the Lord up.....that would be great disrespect!!!!

Amazing that those that teach this false Doctrine. Sickness was designed to kill you and not teach you anything (Deut 28) The same that teach this don't think a thing about going to the Doctor, or taking a Aspirin for pain....... They don't even consult God to make sure he is not building Character in them!!!! Hypocrites!!!!

Jesus Is Lord

lanie0323 · Nov 7, 2010

God Made You Sick to Teach You Something?
-----------
Just my two cents.

Our world is a fallen world, ruled by Satan. Full of sin. I believe that God did not personally / intentionally brings sickness or tragedy to His people. It is sin, evil, that is causing us to have all this sort of challenges.

Remember,
"You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives" - Genesis 50:20

God uses all of those challenges (whether sickness, financial problem, ruin relationship, etc) in order for us to know & rely on Him more, than to our selves. He wanted us to have faith & for us to acknowledge Him that He ALONE could save, heal, provide & comfort us.

Welcome!

God Made You Sick to Teach You Something?

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