God's involvement inside relationships

[Just a Sheep]

Thank you to all who have taken the time to read my questions. The topic is "Relationships" and is more in depth than a simple question and actually involves some thinking. I've yet to come to the answer, but maybe fresh perspectives will be beneficial. Here goes:

There are 7 billion people on the planet and relationships amongst each other are so important that they help to shape how our lives unfold, especially romantic relationships. Nearly all the problems we as people face deal in some way shape or form with another person. We're directly affected by some and indirectly affected by others. Since faith can only be created based on the promises of God, this entire discussion will center around God's promises, so are there promises of God that deal with personal relationships, especially romantic? Now i don't mean a general promise such as "It is not good than man be alone so i shall make him a helper", because that's general and not specific to a certain person or situation. What I'm referring to is a specific individual.

Take for example:

Let's say we have a couple named Rick and Jennifer. Rick and Jennifer love each other, but at some point in time during their relationship problems arise. Maybe Jennifer get's depressed and falls into drugs an alcohol, adultery, lying, etc. Maybe Jennifer leaves Rick for another man. Let's say that Rick talks with God and wants Jennifer restored. Does God promise Rick that it will happen? If so, then what choice does Jennifer have? Who has dominion in this situation?

Let's say Rick and Jennifer were married and they divorced. Jennifer remarries someone else out of spite and so does Rick. Now Rick's new wife is Lisa, and Jennifer's new husband is Tom (Rick & Lisa and Jennifer & Tom); the new marriages aren't working out so well and unbeknownst to each other Rick and Jennifer both ask God to restore their first marriage. Does God promise to do so? What if Lisa and Tom are also praying to God to restore their current marriages with Rick and Jennifer? It seems like a lose lose situation. If God promises to restore Rick and Jennifer then he can't promise to restore Lisa & Rick and Tom & Jennifer. If God refrains from promising anyone to keep their relationship in tact or restore their previous one then he match makes, but doesn't care much about the relationship. What good is match making if it never stays a match?

Does God promise 1 person for each person on Earth? I don't think so. I think God wants his children to seek a prudent mate (Proverbs 19:14); more like a pool of potential candidates for marriage and allow you to choose the one you want, but then again what promises, if any are there from God to keep the marriage in tact? And even if a prudent woman dates an unprudent man God has to have the ability to develop the man into prudence or praying for people would become obsolete. It almost seems illogical and contradictory for God to always promise mankind a helper suitable for him/her, but never promise to keep the relationship together. That's like almost giving a man or woman the freedom to have hundreds and thousands of partners and children from different relationships just so man/ woman would never be alone. I think that's more detrimental than being alone.

Some Christians will say:

1. God has someone better in store for Rick than Jennifer or Lisa. I say hogwash! David stole his best friends wife and sent his best friend to death and even though God didn't want David to do this, He still blessed David and loved him none-the-less. God didn't want Abraham to lay with Hagar, but he still blessed Ishmael and Hagar, so that theory does not hold water.

2. God won't give you something you're not ready for or won't be beneficial for you; again, hogwash. He gave Solomon extensive wealth and power knowing full well Solomon would go off the deep end. God placed Satan in garden knowing full well Eve would eat from the tree. God gave Saul power knowing full well it would go to his head. To claim this theory implies the problems that arise are greater than God and we all know that isn't true. We know that wherever sin abounds grace abounds that much more.

3. God doesn't bless a situation if you're in sin. Once more, Hogwash. Check all the examples above along with every other example in the bible. Sin is done, over, finished. One can perform sinful acts, but that doesn't mean they are "in" sin. we do this all the time, every day. If God doesn't bless you because you act foolishly then no one would have anything.

4. You have to get right with God. Still more hogwash because this deals with you having to get to a position of goodness so God can bless you (this is self righteousness and Law). Did Jesus tell people to get right with God so he could heal and bless them? Of course not. this is a legalistic view of many who don't have a grasp on Grace. Exactly how many prostitutes did God bless, heal, and save in the bible? Clearly they weren't "Right" with God, but he blessed them anyway. How about the solider who was arresting Jesus?; the one who's ear Jesus restored. He sure wasn't right with God, yet he was blessed. Jesus came for the sinner, not the self righteous.

5. God doesn't bless the situation if you are not putting him first or serving him. Hogwash hogwash hogwash. For starters, God is omnipotent which means he never needs anything, so he doesn't need you or I to serve him. Remember this is the guy who created everything we see with spoken words. He doesn't need you or I to do something for him. Now our spoken words in a world where he has given us the authority do play a role in the outcomes, so one can say that God works side by side with mankind when they speak his word over a situation. The hierarchy of heaven shows that the greater in power you are the more you serve others. Hence why Jesus washed the feet of the disciples and Satan himself rebelled. God is not the Roman Catholic or Greek version of a deity who sits in judgement of others demanding things from us, so this theory is debunked.

I know that God has given mankind dominion over the Earth. When Satan deceived Adam and Eve mankind gave that authority to Satan. Jesus came to restore that which was lost, and part of what was lost was mankind's authoritative dominion. Now Jesus took our position in heaven, but since he is our representative, as he is so are we; this means we now have that authority once again. Nearly every Christian I know prays to God in an asking format, "God please do this, God please do that, God will you do this, God will you do that?" To me that indicates just how little people understand about who they are in Christ. The Greek word for "ask" actually means to command with confidence and knowledge. God explains that his people perish for a lack of knowledge. Could that be connected with why Christians aren't living with authority? Because they don't know what rightfully belongs to them (another discussion for another time)? God gave mankind the dominion and the power in their words along with his promises that stretch throughout their entire existence, so the concept of going to God to ask him to do something is gravely misunderstood. We have the power, but don't know we do or what, said power entails. I could provide countless biblical evidence to support this, but that wasn't my motive or overall point.

Since mankind has dominion over the earth does an individual such as Rick above, have dominion over his relationship with Jennifer? Now what about Jennifer, does she have dominion over her relationship with Rick? What if Jennifer still wants to sleep around, do drugs, drink, and destroy herself and not want the same things Rick wants? It almost seems silly that God promises to bring compatible people together like he's the universal match maker, but has no promises to keep the marriage that he deems to important, together. Does Rick have the dominion over his ex wife or vice versa? Does Rick's parents have dominion over him or Jennifer's parents over her?

Take for example:

The Centurion who went to Jesus to heal his servant. The servant didn't come for the healing, but the Centurion acted as he had dominion over the well being of his servant. So who plays the role in our Rick and Jennifer situation of the dominion oriented Centurion and the servant who's living in despair?

I know that when i was 13 (many years ago!!) i suffered from depression from not having an involved father. My father was more career focused and my parents were divorced. I suffered a lot of emotional problems of never feeling good enough and it grew to the point where i was in a dark place emotionally and mentally. Thank Jesus my mother had a very close relationship with Christ and was led to speak God's word over and over and over myself even when the situations looked bleak and a disaster. Long story short i came through it and have a very close relationship with Jesus till this day. So did my mother act like the Centurion in this situation? Can we act as the Centurion in all of our relationships or does it only work with children or servants (who has servants today)?

Some Christians may argue that God doesn't override man's free will, but that would indicate that mankind's free will is greater than God's will, which would be in contradiction seeing how God is omnipotent; which means no one or no thing is greater than Him. Even Job tells us that no man can thwart the will of God, which only helps to emphasize God's sovereignty, which we already knew. While God may allow mankind to take whatever route or direction they want, the end result or destination will always be what God wants.

I'm not saying that you can walk down the street and spot a pretty girl and say "She will marry me and love me". That's almost like witchcraft, but where is the line when an individual has the dominion? Can God restore an ex boyfriend or girlfriend to a loving state with you? Can God (I guess the better choice of words are "Will God") place those once established feelings back inside the individual who lost the feelings? What if Jennifer doesn't love Rick anymore, at least to her knowledge she doesn't. Does God override her free will and place those feelings inside her for Rick's benefit? Isn't that unfair to Jennifer? Would God tell Rick to pray for Jennifer to see Jesus' love for her only to "fix" her so she can be a mate for someone else? Why wouldn't God just work with someone else or the eventual new mate of Jennifer to pray for her? Why use Rick if he stands to gain nothing from it?

Since i used the word "marriage" directly above, what actually constitutes a marriage? Is "marriage" a legal document in your state, a mentality, a spiritual connection? Today we as people embark in relationships that pretty much encompass all the requirements of how our society views "marriage". We date, we get emotionally involved, we sleep together, we live together, even some have children before the ring is on the finger. At what point in time does the relationship become a marriage? Is it when a minister performs a pagan ritual at the alter?, when the couple says "I do", when the ring is secured on the finger?, Is it when both parties agree to eventually wed, say at an engagement proposal? How about when they fall in love? When they sleep together? When they kiss? In God's eyes, when does marriage take place? Is there a promise of God to sustain and keep the marriage in tact? Well why not a promise to keep the relationship in tact during the engagement? Isn't the engagement important as well? What about when Rick and Jennifer are dating and a couple? If their boyfriend girlfriend relationship doesn't stay in tact an engagement never occurs, which means a wedding can't occur in our society's procedure, so isn't the boyfriend/girlfriend relationship just as important as the marriage?

Even though we as people may not do everything the way God deems best, doesn't mean he doesn't bless or isn't involved in situations that are not currently ideal for us. If you have a son who is 5'5 145lbs and doesn't have any athletic ability whatsoever, but he want's to play football so badly, do you crush his dreams and tell him "no it's not the best thing for you and i won't support it", or do you run to the store and buy him some cleats, pads, and equipment? Do you throw the pigskin around in the backyard and go to his games and cheer him on, wash his jersey and dirty socks? Of course you do because you love your son. Clearly God is the same way and evidence is shown with Abraham and David's situations.

So as you can see by now there were a lot of questions, but I hope the reader/responder grasps the overall theme of this discussion. What promises, if any, does God provide us with in regards to restoring a broken relationship or keeping a relationship in tact? God can't just be a match maker with no ability to keep the match together, because in all actuality if the relationship doesn't stay in tact then the couple we're never really a match to begin with, thus not making God a match maker at all. We all know God is great and everything is possible with God, but are there direct promises about this topic?

Thanks again for anyone who takes the time to read and respond. I greatly appreciate it!!

 

[Just a Sheep]

2 things i wanted to add:

1. Out of 44 states in 2011 the divorce rate in America was 53%. If God does not have the ability to intervene with one of the partners of the marriage to keep the relationship in tact than one can say Satan has been succeeding in divorcing couples? Since God has promises to solve every problem one faces in life have we as Christians not come to the revelation of relationship promises?

2. The bible never uses the phrase "free will". Has the doctrine or concept of Free Will been a pagan doctrine invented on incorrect understanding of the concept "Man's will" spoken about in the bible. We think God will never override Free Will, but did he not appear to Moses, Paul and others when they weren't seeking him? Did Jesus not raise Lazerus against his will? Did God not override the supposed free will of Sara and Abram when they believed in their hearts Sara would not be pregnant? How about Mary. Heck Big Joe didn't want Mary pregnant. Was that overriding man's supposed free will? The question is just how free is man's free will? Or is man's will affected by the spiritual realm. Did God ever really say he wouldn't deal with Man's Will? Or have we taken a concept and created our own doctrine out of it like we've done with so many other topics? A simple word search never reveals the phrase "free will". It's never portrayed that man's free will is above God's. Has man's will not been affected by the thoughts and emotions Satan brings across our daily lives? Have we not realized our power and potential to stop Satan from perverting our will?

Take for example Jennifer above. She's lying, cheating, doing drugs, leaving her husband Rick, drinking constantly, etc. Clearly these are not things God or any good father would want their daughter to be doing so we can say these actions are not God's will or desire. So who's desire are they? Must be Satan. So Satan must have somehow gotten into the heart of Jennifer and perverted her thinking and emotions to pursue this kind of behavior. Did Satan not just affect Jennifer's will? If Satan can do it for bad motives, can't God do it for good motives too?

Did God not promise that all the Jews would come Christ? God has promised that all of creation will come to Christ. Heck, Gentiles didn't even want a Savior, but God brought him anyway. Isn't Jesus the biggest example of God affecting man's will?

In the situation mentioned above Satan has got us into believing that either outcome will make one person hate God and be unhappy. If God answers Rick and Jennifer's request to reunite them then Lisa and Tom will be hurt and hate God as a result because he didn't keep their marriages in tact. God loses. Now if God answers Tom and Lisa's request Rick and Jennifer will be upset and hate God. Another loss for God. In this current mentality, Satan win's no matter what and God loses no matter what. Satan can not be stronger than God. Satan has had a heyday in destroying our relationships and marriages because we don't know the truth. Clearly there is something we do not know.

Paul tells us not to battle against the flesh but against the principalities of the spirit world and Christ tells us that people don't see the gospel because their eyes have been blinded. Surely our will to see the father has been affected by Satan. So God has to be able to affect man's will as well.

 

[Just a Sheep]

no answers or responses?

 

[james1523]

Some Christians will say:
1. God has someone better in store for Rick than Jennifer or Lisa. I say hogwash! David stole his best friends wife and sent his best friend to death and even though God didn't want David to do this, He still blessed David and loved him none-the-less. God didn't want Abraham to lay with Hagar, but he still blessed Ishmael and Hagar, so that theory does not hold water.

God killed the child because of David's sin, however.

2. God won't give you something you're not ready for or won't be beneficial for you; again, hogwash. He gave Solomon extensive wealth and power knowing full well Solomon would go off the deep end. God placed Satan in garden knowing full well Eve would eat from the tree. God gave Saul power knowing full well it would go to his head. To claim this theory implies the problems that arise are greater than God and we all know that isn't true. We know that wherever sin abounds grace abounds that much more.

Romans 8:28-29 applies here.

3. God doesn't bless a situation if you're in sin. Once more, Hogwash. Check all the examples above along with every other example in the bible. Sin is done, over, finished. One can perform sinful acts, but that doesn't mean they are "in" sin. we do this all the time, every day. If God doesn't bless you because you act foolishly then no one would have anything.

He is slow to anger and merciful however He does not let sin go unaccounted for.
God says he will judge us for what we do (2 Cor 5:10).

4. You have to get right with God. Still more hogwash because this deals with you having to get to a position of goodness so God can bless you (this is self righteousness and Law). Did Jesus tell people to get right with God so he could heal and bless them? Of course not. this is a legalistic view of many who don't have a grasp on Grace. Exactly how many prostitutes did God bless, heal, and save in the bible? Clearly they weren't "Right" with God, but he blessed them anyway. How about the solider who was arresting Jesus?; the one who's ear Jesus restored. He sure wasn't right with God, yet he was blessed. Jesus came for the sinner, not the self righteous.

That's true that God blesses the sinner however everyone will be judged one day (2 Cor 5:10).

5. God doesn't bless the situation if you are not putting him first or serving him. Hogwash hogwash hogwash. For starters, God is omnipotent which means he never needs anything, so he doesn't need you or I to serve him. Remember this is the guy who created everything we see with spoken words. He doesn't need you or I to do something for him. Now our spoken words in a world where he has given us the authority do play a role in the outcomes, so one can say that God works side by side with mankind when they speak his word over a situation. The hierarchy of heaven shows that the greater in power you are the more you serve others. Hence why Jesus washed the feet of the disciples and Satan himself rebelled. God is not the Roman Catholic or Greek version of a deity who sits in judgement of others demanding things from us, so this theory is debunked.

You are forgetting that God needs us for some things because He chose to limit Himself to and by His creation, otherwise he would not have given man any responsibilities (such as gospel preaching), and in fact He would not have created mankind in His image at all.

I know that God has given mankind dominion over the Earth. When Satan deceived Adam and Eve mankind gave that authority to Satan. Jesus came to restore that which was lost, and part of what was lost was mankind's authoritative dominion. Now Jesus took our position in heaven, but since he is our representative, as he is so are we; this means we now have that authority once again. Nearly every Christian I know prays to God in an asking format, "God please do this, God please do that, God will you do this, God will you do that?" To me that indicates just how little people understand about who they are in Christ. The Greek word for "ask" actually means to command with confidence and knowledge. God explains that his people perish for a lack of knowledge. Could that be connected with why Christians aren't living with authority? Because they don't know what rightfully belongs to them (another discussion for another time)? God gave mankind the dominion and the power in their words along with his promises that stretch throughout their entire existence, so the concept of going to God to ask him to do something is gravely misunderstood. We have the power, but don't know we do or what, said power entails. I could provide countless biblical evidence to support this, but that wasn't my motive or overall point.

What about the word petition? God wants us to ask Him for things Phil 4:6, Matt 7:7

Since mankind has dominion over the earth does an individual such as Rick above, have dominion over his relationship with Jennifer? Now what about Jennifer, does she have dominion over her relationship with Rick? What if Jennifer still wants to sleep around, do drugs, drink, and destroy herself and not want the same things Rick wants? It almost seems silly that God promises to bring compatible people together like he's the universal match maker, but has no promises to keep the marriage that he deems to important, together. Does Rick have the dominion over his ex wife or vice versa? Does Rick's parents have dominion over him or Jennifer's parents over her?

Some things happen not because of right or wrong but because of God's sovereignty. The purpose and reason is found in Romans 8:28-29.
Not many Christians actually believe that God is sovereign, and when they say He is sovereign it is only a theological word for them. By experience I know that God is sovereign every second of the day.

 

[Just a Sheep]

I'm going to have to disagree with the majority of what you said. If you're interested in why i disagree feel free to ask and i will do my best to give a simple summary. Now you and I seem to be on two different levels when it comes to understanding the heart of God. It would take me quite some time to explain what i know about the heart of God and I'm not sure you want to invest the time or are ready to hear it. Either way that wasn't the overall theme of my post and i think you may have missed the point. I'm not going to dive into grace vs. law as it's quite in depth subject, but this was more centered around relationships, especially romantic and the inclusion of God's promises. I believe i have a good grasp on God's heart and nature and am looking for some information in regards to his promises if any in regards to keeping relationships especially romantic, in tact. There is clearly an effort on Satan's part to pervert the heart of those in marriages and romantic relationships to the point where the family or relationship breaks apart. Where in God's word does God promise to restore your romantic relationship with your loved one.

Even though we may disagree with God's desire and character I Thank you for the effort.

 

[Just a Sheep]

i did a little research today on divorce rates and found that the top 10 countries have a divorce rate stemming from 53% (USA) to 71% (Belgium). When investigating each of the countries on the list i found that 9/10 of them have Catholicism as the highest percentage of organized religion. Some of the countries on the list also have large percentages of non religious groups as well. America being last on the list had Protestant 2-1 over Catholicism. I think it's interesting information and poses the question:

Do broken marriages (not including dating and engagements) correlate with the doctrine that's being preached in the religious majority?

 

[james1523]

I'm going to have to disagree with the majority of what you said. You and I are on two different levels when it comes to understanding the heart of God. It would take me quite some time to explain the heart of God and I'm not sure you want to invest the time or are ready to hear it. Either way that wasn't the overall theme of my post and i think you may have missed the point. Thank you for the effort though.

What can you tell us about the heart of a God who kills an innocent child because of its father's sin? (in the case of David). Would you call that a blessing?
Where in the bible does God promise to bless relationships and keep people together no matter what, and where does God promise to bless a relationship with no consequences?

 

[james1523]

Even though we as people may not do everything the way God deems best, doesn't mean he doesn't bless or isn't involved in situations that are not currently ideal for us. If you have a son who is 5'5 145lbs and doesn't have any athletic ability whatsoever, but he want's to play football so badly, do you crush his dreams and tell him "no it's not the best thing for you and i won't support it", or do you run to the store and buy him some cleats, pads, and equipment? Do you throw the pigskin around in the backyard and go to his games and cheer him on, wash his jersey and dirty socks? Of course you do because you love your son. Clearly God is the same way and evidence is shown with Abraham and David's situations.

So as you can see by now there were a lot of questions, but I hope the reader/responder grasps the overall theme of this discussion. What promises, if any, does God provide us with in regards to restoring a broken relationship or keeping a relationship in tact? God can't just be a match maker with no ability to keep the match together, because in all actuality if the relationship doesn't stay in tact then the couple we're never really a match to begin with, thus not making God a match maker at all. We all know God is great and everything is possible with God, but are there direct promises about this topic?

I don't think God, encouraged David to commit adultery and murder just because David desired it, as in your sporting analogy. I would think a good parent would try and persuade their son from doing something they know the son cannot do, especially if that thing is harmful or wrong. God doesn't support our dreams and desires, He expects us to follow His dreams and desires.

 

[james1523]

I'm going to have to disagree with the majority of what you said. If you're interested in why i disagree feel free to ask and i will do my best to give a simple summary. Now you and I seem to be on two different levels when it comes to understanding the heart of God. It would take me quite some time to explain what i know about the heart of God and I'm not sure you want to invest the time or are ready to hear it. Either way that wasn't the overall theme of my post and i think you may have missed the point. I'm not going to dive into grace vs. law as it's quite in depth subject, but this was more centered around relationships, especially romantic and the inclusion of God's promises. I believe i have a good grasp on God's heart and nature and am looking for some information in regards to his promises if any in regards to keeping relationships especially romantic, in tact. There is clearly an effort on Satan's part to pervert the heart of those in marriages and romantic relationships to the point where the family or relationship breaks apart. Where in God's word does God promise to restore your romantic relationship with your loved one.

Even though we may disagree with God's desire and character I Thank you for the effort.

Apologies if my post is not in line with your intentions, but it appeared that God's person and his ways were somehow tied up with the theme of this thread.
I believe that God never promises to restore romantic relationships. However He does provide principles by which a man and a woman may live in unity, peace and harmony, which may lead to a successful marriage and restoration of a failed one. The same principles may be applied to any relationships eg between parents and children. I can summarize my view as follows: God's involvement in a relationship is to the extent that the individual parties live in oneness with God as individuals and give God the pre-eminence over the self. But here is where most people assume wrongly - they assume that God's involvement in marriage is always in a positive way, that He will miraculously change us or the other person for the better or make things work. Sometimes God makes or allows things to be difficult for us so that we can turn to Him and grow. In some respect to have a difficult marriage is more of a blessing than an easy one, because a difficult marriage can cause us to depend more wholly on God. God wants marriages to work (i.e. not divorce), but He may not want a marriage to always be a happy one without suffering, because He has a higher purpose than our own happiness and fulfillment.

 

[james1523]

Does God promise 1 person for each person on Earth? I don't think so. I think God wants his children to seek a prudent mate (Proverbs 19:14); more like a pool of potential candidates for marriage and allow you to choose the one you want, but then again what promises, if any are there from God to keep the marriage in tact? And even if a prudent woman dates an unprudent man God has to have the ability to develop the man into prudence or praying for people would become obsolete. It almost seems illogical and contradictory for God to always promise mankind a helper suitable for him/her, but never promise to keep the relationship together. That's like almost giving a man or woman the freedom to have hundreds and thousands of partners and children from different relationships just so man/ woman would never be alone. I think that's more detrimental than being alone.

God doesn't promise 1 person for each person on the Earth I agree, but He does promise to answer our prayers when we pray according to His will. God wants us to seek a mate, I agree, but He does ask us to seek Him for guidance and pray all the time, i.e. depend on Him. So in effect it is never a God versus us thing, but God and us working together to find a mate, and then working to keep the marriage together and grow. The difference between Christian marriage and worldly marriage is that a Christian marriage involves 5 persons - husband, wife and God, but a marriage of unbeliever involves only 2 people, or 3 if you include Satan. I would think a Christian marriage has far less trouble than a non-Christian one. I can just remember the number of non-Christian marriages I know of where the husband or wife gives no guarantee to their partner that they will stick around for the long-term, i.e. there is no sense of security.

 

[Just a Sheep]

What can you tell us about the heart of a God who kills an innocent child because of its father's sin? (in the case of David). Would you call that a blessing?
Where in the bible does God promise to bless relationships and keep people together no matter what, and where does God promise to bless a relationship with no consequences?

Let me start by saying I was the one asking the questions, now you want me to answer them. You're trying to sway me off the subject at hand. I came in here with questions of my own and now I'm on supposed to defend the Lord for you. Regardless of the David situation the example was one of many, but like so often instead of people realizing the overall point they attack the examples. I've proved it over and over that God blessed David's adultery by bringing forth a new son. God could have simply said I won't have anything to do with your new relationship out of adultery, but he didn't.

Now to define the situation with David you should learn three things:

1. Hebrew grammar and proper articles.
2. Hebrew manuscripts not man made translations of the bible.
3. The Jewish people "Demanded" to be judged and rewarded by a Law, then get all upset because the LAW they requested and demanded is now put in effect? Suddenly God who did what his people asked of him is now the bad guy because he's doing what they asked?

Do you really want me to spend hours explaining the heart of God or are you hear for your own agenda to trick, trap, and try to prove me wrong? I came here for answers, not a theological debate.

And i asked the question, "where does God promise to restore and fix relationships?" Why are you now asking the same question?

 

[Just a Sheep]

I don't think God, encouraged David to commit adultery and murder just because David desired it, as in your sporting analogy. I would think a good parent would try and persuade their son from doing something they know the son cannot do, especially if that thing is harmful or wrong. God doesn't support our dreams and desires, He expects us to follow His dreams and desires.

1. Did i say God encouraged David to commit adultery and murder or once again did you misunderstand and misinterpret what i said? Did you really read what i said?

2. A good parent would also encourage and help their child in a bad situation as God showed.

3. We are not puppets on a string where God says "if you don't do what i tell you to do then i won't help you". I think you ought to refer to every example i posted along with the thousands of examples shown in the bible. Again this is showing me you're more focused on self righteousness than grace.

Lastly, I'll say it once again. I came for answers and now I'm defending God in front of you. If you can't answer my questions then kindly avoid the thread.

 

[Just a Sheep]

Apologies if my post is not in line with your intentions, but it appeared that God's person and his ways were somehow tied up with the theme of this thread.
I believe that God never promises to restore romantic relationships. However He does provide principles by which a man and a woman may live in unity, peace and harmony, which may lead to a successful marriage and restoration of a failed one. The same principles may be applied to any relationships eg between parents and children. I can summarize my view as follows: God's involvement in a relationship is to the extent that the individual parties live in oneness with God as individuals and give God the pre-eminence over the self. But here is where most people assume wrongly - they assume that God's involvement in marriage is always in a positive way, that He will miraculously change us or the other person for the better or make things work. Sometimes God makes or allows things to be difficult for us so that we can turn to Him and grow. In some respect to have a difficult marriage is more of a blessing than an easy one, because a difficult marriage can cause us to depend more wholly on God. God wants marriages to work (i.e. not divorce), but He may not want a marriage to always be a happy one without suffering, because He has a higher purpose than our own happiness and fulfillment.

I've shown you that Satan influences a man's will, thus indicated by the divorce rate. If Satan can persuade man's will to destroy relationships you're telling me God can't persuade man's will to restore them? Suddenly Satan is greater than God? surely that can't be true. God can match make, but has no contingency to keep the match together, thus he's not a good match maker?

I will have to kindly disagree with your opinion for all the reasons i've stated before. God doesn't create bad situations to draw you closer to him; because many people don't come to him, which he would already know seeing as he's omniscient and all. Sounds more like a testing environment and he doesn't test people since he already knows the outcome.

To assume that God want's marriages to suffer or have hard situations for the pure benefit of coming to him is purely incorrect in my opinion as shown above and before.

 

[Just a Sheep]

God doesn't promise 1 person for each person on the Earth I agree, but He does promise to answer our prayers when we pray according to His will. God wants us to seek a mate, I agree, but He does ask us to seek Him for guidance and pray all the time, i.e. depend on Him. So in effect it is never a God versus us thing, but God and us working together to find a mate, and then working to keep the marriage together and grow. The difference between Christian marriage and worldly marriage is that a Christian marriage involves 5 persons - husband, wife and God, but a marriage of unbeliever involves only 2 people, or 3 if you include Satan. I would think a Christian marriage has far less trouble than a non-Christian one. I can just remember the number of non-Christian marriages I know of where the husband or wife gives no guarantee to their partner that they will stick around for the long-term, i.e. there is no sense of security.

I think you're missing my overall point and i don't how else to explain it. Maybe we're on two different pages in this understanding.

 

[james1523]

Let me start by saying I was the one asking the questions, now you want me to answer them. You're trying to sway me off the subject at hand. I came in here with questions of my own and now I'm on supposed to defend the Lord for you. Regardless of the David situation the example was one of many, but like so often instead of people realizing the overall point they attack the examples. I've proved it over and over that God blessed David's adultery by bringing forth a new son. God could have simply said I won't have anything to do with your new relationship out of adultery, but he didn't.

Now to define the situation with David you should learn three things:

1. Hebrew grammar and proper articles.
2. Hebrew manuscripts not man made translations of the bible.
3. The Jewish people "Demanded" to be judged and rewarded by a Law, then get all upset because the LAW they requested and demanded is now put in effect? Suddenly God who did what his people asked of him is now the bad guy because he's doing what they asked?

Do you really want me to spend hours explaining the heart of God or are you hear for your own agenda to trick, trap, and try to prove me wrong? I came here for answers, not a theological debate.

And i asked the question, "where does God promise to restore and fix relationships?" Why are you now asking the same question?

Are you really looking for answers or are you looking for someone to agree with you? It seems you are already convinced you are right, and are unwilling to be proved wrong.
God didn't bless David's adultery, because He killed David's child, even though David fasted and tried to stop it. You don't seem to mention that fact at all.
To say that God blessed adultery is to say that God doesn't bless sin, but He doesn't bless sin He judges it.
Why do I need to go to the man-made Hebrew manuscripts? ( I say man-made, because unless you have the original manuscripts in your possession, you only have a man-made copy anyway). What's wrong with our English translations?

 

[james1523]

I've shown you that Satan influences a man's will, thus indicated by the divorce rate. If Satan can persuade man's will to destroy relationships you're telling me God can't persuade man's will to restore them? Suddenly Satan is greater than God? surely that can't be true. God can match make, but has no contingency to keep the match together, thus he's not a good match maker?

I will have to kindly disagree with your opinion for all the reasons i've stated before. God doesn't create bad situations to draw you closer to him; because many people don't come to him, which he would already know seeing as he's omniscient and all. Sounds more like a testing environment and he doesn't test people since he already knows the outcome.

To assume that God want's marriages to suffer or have hard situations for the pure benefit of coming to him is purely incorrect in my opinion as shown above and before.

I agree that God wants marriages to work and the divorce rate is against His will and that both Satan and God can influence man's will. However as you said we are not puppets on a string, so we cannot say that God and Satan are entirely responsible for the divorce rate. Yet, God is Sovereign, and for a believer there is no such thing as a coincidence. Romans 8:28 , says all things work together for good. Romans 8:29 states the purpose. All things must include the bad, otherwise it would not be all things.
The story of Job shows that sometimes God and Satan work together to prove a point. God has a purpose in suffering (1 Peter 4:12-19).
Suffering for the Christian most often comes by way of their closest family members, Jesus even said he came for that purpose (Matt 10:35-36).

"God doesn't test mankind because He already knows the outcome" is another strange statement not really supported by Scripture - tell that to Job. :shade:
God doesn't test mankind because He doesn't know, God tests mankind because mankind (and Satan) don't know. Such is the case with Job. God already knew that Job would pass the test, but Satan didn't and neither did Job or his friends.

"because in all actuality if the relationship doesn't stay in tact then the couple we're never really a match to begin with" - another illogical assertion. Two people may be a match but two people "made for each other" can still do stupid things and mess it up. The idea that perfect matches work and imperfect matches don't, is unsupportable by the statistics and common sense. Arranged marriages can work perfectly well and apparent "incompatible" couples can adapt and adjust and have lifelong marriages.

 

[Just a Sheep]

Are you really looking for answers or are you looking for someone to agree with you? It seems you are already convinced you are right, and are unwilling to be proved wrong.
God didn't bless David's adultery, because He killed David's child, even though David fasted and tried to stop it. You don't seem to mention that fact at all.
To say that God blessed adultery is to say that God doesn't bless sin, but He doesn't bless sin He judges it.
Why do I need to go to the man-made Hebrew manuscripts? ( I say man-made, because unless you have the original manuscripts in your possession, you only have a man-made copy anyway). What's wrong with our English translations?

1. I said this was a deep subject that involved thought. You're not seeing the big picture of what I'm talking about. Maybe this subject is too involved?

2. How many times did i elude to wanting answers? You've provided me with the traditional Church dogma that has been apart of keeping Christians at a loss. I believe the traditional views of Christianity have been more of a burden than a success, thus they are a misunderstanding of the truth and that deals with many subjects.

3. God didn't kill David's child, hence why i told you to learn Hebrew, but again this appears to be more difficult for you to understand at this point in time. If that is your view of who God is, then like i said "we are on two different levels of this understanding".

4. If you can't see God still supporting David's choice even through failure then again we are on two different levels and this thread is not to be used for teaching you the heart of God.

5. I'm not going to dive into the legalistic views of judging sin. Trust me when i say this: You're legalistic approach is far too thick for my help at this point in time.

6. If you don't know the difference between autographs, manuscripts, and translations i suggest you brush up on it along with the history of the bible.

7. There are errors in the translations, any theologian will explain this. Again like i said if you don't already know this then we are on two different levels of understanding.

I told you i disagree with your replies, i was polite in doing so and now this conversation has gotten far off topic. Thank you for your effort and time, but i disagree with what you've said.

 

[Just a Sheep]

I agree that God wants marriages to work and the divorce rate is against His will and that both Satan and God can influence man's will. However as you said we are not puppets on a string, so we cannot say that God and Satan are entirely responsible for the divorce rate. Yet, God is Sovereign, and for a believer there is no such thing as a coincidence. Romans 8:28 , says all things work together for good. Romans 8:29 states the purpose. All things must include the bad, otherwise it would not be all things.
The story of Job shows that sometimes God and Satan work together to prove a point. God has a purpose in suffering (1 Peter 4:12-19).
Suffering for the Christian most often comes by way of their closest family members, Jesus even said he came for that purpose (Matt 10:35-36).

"God doesn't test mankind because He already knows the outcome" is another strange statement not really supported by Scripture - tell that to Job. :shade:
God doesn't test mankind because He doesn't know, God tests mankind because mankind (and Satan) don't know. Such is the case with Job. God already knew that Job would pass the test, but Satan didn't and neither did Job or his friends.

"because in all actuality if the relationship doesn't stay in tact then the couple we're never really a match to begin with" - another illogical assertion. Two people may be a match but two people "made for each other" can still do stupid things and mess it up. The idea that perfect matches work and imperfect matches don't, is unsupportable by the statistics and common sense. Arranged marriages can work perfectly well and apparent "incompatible" couples can adapt and adjust and have lifelong marriages.

I agree that God wants marriages to work and the divorce rate is against His will and that both Satan and God can influence man's will. However as you said we are not puppets on a string, so we cannot say that God and Satan are entirely responsible for the divorce rate. Yet, God is Sovereign, and for a believer there is no such thing as a coincidence. Romans 8:28 , says all things work together for good. Romans 8:29 states the purpose. All things must include the bad, otherwise it would not be all things.
The story of Job shows that sometimes God and Satan work together to prove a point. God has a purpose in suffering (1 Peter 4:12-19).
Suffering for the Christian most often comes by way of their closest family members, Jesus even said he came for that purpose (Matt 10:35-36).

"God doesn't test mankind because He already knows the outcome" is another strange statement not really supported by Scripture - tell that to Job. :shade:
God doesn't test mankind because He doesn't know, God tests mankind because mankind (and Satan) don't know. Such is the case with Job. God already knew that Job would pass the test, but Satan didn't and neither did Job or his friends.

"because in all actuality if the relationship doesn't stay in tact then the couple we're never really a match to begin with" - another illogical assertion. Two people may be a match but two people "made for each other" can still do stupid things and mess it up. The idea that perfect matches work and imperfect matches don't, is unsupportable by the statistics and common sense. Arranged marriages can work perfectly well and apparent "incompatible" couples can adapt and adjust and have lifelong marriages.

James James James. This has gotten far off topic and now you have chosen the path of trying to dismantle everything i say; exactly the conversation i never wanted to have, but you just can't seem to help yourself. James it would take me a very long time to teach you what i know and in all honesty i don't have the desire or patience right now to do so. This is a more suitable job for Christ, not I. He can break down the walls of deception and Law far easier and more efficiently than I.

1. If you are one of those that think God sits back and watches and the devil does as well than for the third time, we're on two different levels of this understanding.

2. Like nearly all of Christianity, you misunderstand the book of Job. You have fallen once again for "Churchianity's" view, not the truth. To prove this point: Answer me this question:

"Why did Job lose his family?"

3. God does not test. Do you even know what omniscient means? There is a difference between people who are ready for spiritual food and those still sipping on spiritual milk. Maybe you're not ready for deeper truths and understanding right now.
The Bible says in James 1:13, “Let no man say when he is tested that I am tested of God, for God cannot be tested with evil and neither does God test any man”. I changed the words that were translated as “tempted” to “tested” because that is what the word means in the Strong’s. Look it up for yourself, if you do not believe me. So while you sit there and say what i say is not scriptural i suggest you stop and think before you begin to judge just how much i know. I didn't provide you scriptural evidence because i assumed you already knew this from simple logic, but i was incorrect. Now you know.

Jas 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.


4. So as you can see God is the sender of every Good and Perfect gift into your life. Then who sends the evil bad curses into your life, do they also come from heaven above? You see you cannot conclude that they do, because this verse also says God does not change. If there is not any shadow of turning in God, then God is not blessing you today and cursing you tomorrow. God is not having full confidence in you today and testing you tomorrow. This is so absolutely important for you to see and to understand. God already knows the future, he does not have to test you to know what you are going to do, He already knows. Whenever Christian think that God tests them, they automatically think that God is stupid and does not know the outcome. The Bible says that God makes known the end from the beginning, so he must already know the end. Do you get it?


The story of Job is a story of God’s blessings and Satan’s curses. If you confuse the two roles you are just going to be deceived

5. Again for the 4th or 5th time you are not grasping the overall topic i has stated because we are on two different pages of this understanding. This is what i was concerned with i posted my questions; that the responses i would receive were churchanity's view. the same ones that have deceived Christianity for far too long. I highly suggest you end this conversation and we agree to disagree. I don't have the desire or strength to get into a deep theological debate about your Christian view vs. mine. You believe God doesn't have involvement in a relationship unless both parties allow him, while i see that theology as deception and am looking for deeper truth, hence why i said this was a deeper subject than a superficial surface based analogy.

I don't mean this is a disrespectful way, but we are on two entirely different levels in our understanding of who God is, what his heart and desires are, what spiritual authority man has been given, grace and pure love, and how Christianity can overcome all negative influences of the enemy. While you believe the subject of relationships are the line that God does not cross i believe that mentality is a deception from Satan to make you think God's provision stops at the relationship line. We ought to stop this conversation at this point in time because what I'm searching for you believe does not exist and we won't be able to come to a common ground.

 

[james1523]

1. I said this was a deep subject that involved thought. You're not seeing the big picture of what I'm talking about. Maybe this subject is too involved?

2. How many times did i elude to wanting answers? You've provided me with the traditional Church dogma that has been apart of keeping Christians at a loss. I believe the traditional views of Christianity have been more of a burden than a success, thus they are a misunderstanding of the truth and that deals with many subjects.

3. God didn't kill David's child, hence why i told you to learn Hebrew, but again this appears to be more difficult for you to understand at this point in time. If that is your view of who God is, then like i said "we are on two different levels of this understanding".

4. If you can't see God still supporting David's choice even through failure then again we are on two different levels and this thread is not to be used for teaching you the heart of God.

5. I'm not going to dive into the legalistic views of judging sin. Trust me when i say this: You're legalistic approach is far too thick for my help at this point in time.

6. If you don't know the difference between autographs, manuscripts, and translations i suggest you brush up on it along with the history of the bible.

7. There are errors in the translations, any theologian will explain this. Again like i said if you don't already know this then we are on two different levels of understanding.

I told you i disagree with your replies, i was polite in doing so and now this conversation has gotten far off topic. Thank you for your effort and time, but i disagree with what you've said.

You say that God did not kill the child, but who struck the child in verse 15? Doesn't it say the Lord?
2 Samuel 12:15
15 After Nathan had gone home, the Lord struck the child that Uriah’s wife had borne to David, and he became ill.

I looked up Strong's for the word "Lord" and it says "from 1961; (the) self-Existent or Eternal; Jehovah, Jewish national name of God:--Jehovah, the Lord".

 

[Just a Sheep]

You say that God did not kill the child, but who struck the child in verse 15? Doesn't it say the Lord?
2 Samuel 12:15
15 After Nathan had gone home, the Lord struck the child that Uriah’s wife had borne to David, and he became ill.

I looked up Strong's for the word "Lord" and it says "from 1961; (the) self-Existent or Eternal; Jehovah, Jewish national name of God:--Jehovah, the Lord".

Why is this so difficult for you to understand? What did i tell you i didn't want to do? Did i not say i didn't want to get into a theological debate on who God is? Did i not say we are on two different levels of understanding and that some want spiritual food and are ready and some can only still handle spiritual milk?

Do you really want truth? Are you ready for food? Are you willing to ask the tough questions and accept answers that are contrary to what you've come to know thus far? Are you really ready to abandon the traditionally held views in a quest for real truth? Are you really ready for that or are you only here to attempt to prove me wrong? Have you not argued everything I've said? Did you not come into "MY" thread and avoided the depth of what i said in my original post? Did you not overlook the entire premise and core of what i said and chose to debate me with traditional held views that i alluded to not wanting to hear (like i don't already know the church dogma on the subject)? Can you even remember what i said without going back and reading it again? Are you really understanding my words or adding things to them? Are you misinterpreting what i say so it conforms to you're already preconceived notion of truth? Far too often we make scripture conform to what we know, rather than conform to scripture.

You pose questions but refrain from utilizing the points i made prior to this post. Without looking it up do you know the difference between autographs, manuscripts, and translations? Do you even know who translated the English bible and when it was done, and under what authority it was done? Do you know the history of the English translations or the bible itself? Are you really ready for food? Are the walls of pride too thick at this point in time? Do you require a revelation from Christ before you are ready? If you truly are here for truth and not an argument than it would be my pleasure to discuss it, but I'm not going to do so from a position of defense. The biggest hindrance to truth is the single thought, "you already know all you need to know (pride)." But if truth is what you seek than i will gladly explain what i've come to know thus far, but only you and God can decide if you're really ready for it. I will not take up a position of defense and argue every word i type; i just won't do it. So that decision is up to you.

I can't begin to answer your question about David's child until you are able to answer those questions with real truth because no matter what i tell you, if you are not spiritually ready for the truth, your self righteous nature will reject it and argue everything i say, evidence in how this discussion has already transpired.

In regards to my original post I will try to say this as simply as I can:

It is my opinion/theory that Christians have been deceived into believing that God does not have provisions for broken relationships, both dating, engagement, and marriage (along with so much more). The traditional view is that God can bring compatible people together, but it's up to the people to make it work. While I believe people have a role, i don't believe God has zero role. I believe it's the devil's deception to make mankind believe God is not involved, not a part of, will not assist, and has not created promises, spiritual authority, and provisions to fix and restore broken relationships. Divorces, broken hearts, infidelity, breakups plague the human species. To believe God is not able and will not solve the problem is putting God in box and illuminating the power of Satan. You are making Satan's ability to destroy (the thief came to kill and destroy), far greater than Jesus' ability to heal and fix that which was broken. What I want to know is where said promises are.

Example was Rick and Jennifer. Let's say Jennifer went off the deep end and was emotionally destroyed for some reason. She turned to cheating, lying, drugs, and alcohol. Where did those perversions come from? Clearly they didn't stem from God and we know we are not to wrestle with flesh, but the spiritual domain. So without having to illustrate 10 hours of scriptures and connecting all the dots (i leave that up to you) one can easily see that Jennifer's choices and behaviors and feelings are directly linked to some form of spiritual, emotional, and mental deception cause by demons (hence where the phrase, wrestling demons comes from). You can't really believe that Jennifer made all those decision's on her own; that she wasn't deceived into believing those decisions and actions were the correct path to take? So traditional Christianity tells us that Satan can pervert and enter a marriage to destroy it, yet God can not enter it to fix it? Satan doesn't have to get permission from the normal sense to enter into Jennifer's psyche to corrupt her, but God has to? So Satan is greater than God? I hardly think so. Don't you see how idiotic that is? I know you're an intelligent man, you have to be able to see that. If there is a spiritual war (not necessarily the war many think) brewing, which i absolutely believe is happening, than which side wins by making mankind think God can't and won't fix a broken relationship with a husband, wife, fiance, boyfriend, and girlfriend?

Traditional Christianity teaches us that if you don't do what God says he can't help you. BS. I've already shown you on numerous occasions how this theory is untrue and rooted in self righteousness. I'm not going to get into a deep debate about GRACE vs. LAW (Self righteousness). If you don't understand that core principle i suggest that's where you begin before you take on these hard questions. Just as a parent will support, love, and assist their child in a bad situation or a situation they don't agree in God will do the same.

Do you want proof? All i need is one element of proof to prove my position true.

"Behold, children are a heritage from the Lord, the fruit of the womb a reward." Pslam 127:3 & "Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows" - James 1:17

See God can not give a gift and then do a curse because he does not change, so your understanding of David's child's death from the original marriage must have some misunderstanding or mistranslation in it because to suggest God brings life than kills is contradicts the core roots of the gospel. Get it? So if children are an inheritance from God then he shows us he was blessing David's new relationship even though David didn't handle it the right way and because David didn't handle it correctly the result was judgement by the LAW his ancestors begged God to create for them.

Now the story of Job deals with something similar, but I'm not sure you're able to handle it.

Christianity has been duped into believing they are helpless in the matter of relationships (along with so many other areas). We've accepted circumstances as truth. Christians are not living the abundant life and part of that abundance is spiritual authority over your relations, both romantic, friendly, and business. Christians are playing from behind in nearly all aspects of their lives, especially relationships, and personally I've had enough of it and i hope I'm not the only one. I pose the hard questions that traditional churchianity does not want to answer because they simply can't. Either you are on board with my understanding and want authority over what the devil has taken or you're going to continue to swim in the pool of defeat and helplessness.