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SignUp Now!Well there goes the universal sainthood of all believers.Group one is the saints and group two is the faithful in Christ Jesus.
DANG.... Pronoun hell.
Thank you for making my point. Neither you nor Curtis has an inspired Bible if you're using a translation since..."God didn't inspire any of man's "translations."God didn't inspire any of man's "translations."
What the heck is a VERNACULAR Bible? You think you sound educated when you fart out stupid words like this? I think I may need to nickname you Dunning-Kruger (DK for short).He inspired his word, which we have today and which we have always had in his vernacular Bibles.
Firstly, if verses 3-12 include the Ephesians there's no point making a distinction to begin with. The whole idea of chapters one and two is how God has made one new man of the two, Jew and Gentile. That he opens with the saints and then in chapter 2 tells us that the saints are the Jews also tells us there are two groups. It doesn't make much sense for Paul to pray that the Ephesians get enlightened about the very things they've already experienced.Well there goes the universal sainthood of all believers.
Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:- Ephesians 1:1 KJV
If I may, the word "saint" is used as an English gloss for G40 ἅγιος hagios, and is an adjective in the phrase αγιοις τοις (saintly ones). Now if both groups, the "saintly ones" and the "faithful" are ουσιν εν εφεσω (existing-being in Ephesus), I can see where a two party distinction might be made. But such a distinction hinges on the word G40 ἅγιος hagios, and I provide a -
LINK to the Liddell Scott Lexicon for G40
A. devoted to the gods:
In short, if there actually is a two party distinction of those living in Ephesus, the "saintly ones" are the clergy; the bishops and priests (the saintly ones whose lives are DEVOTED TO GOD) that Paul appointed as he started to create a structure of Ecclesiastical Authority in the churches he founded - while the "faithful in Christ Jesus" are just that, the believers that are commonly identified today as laity.
HOWEVER....
The text does not read, "to the saints and those faithful in Christ Jesus being in Ephesus." So while I agree that two groups of people are clearly identified here, the distinction focuses on ουσιν εν εφεσω - those existing-being in Ephesus and those not.
Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:- Ephesians 1:1 KJV
Paul had always instructed his letters to be read in all the churches he founded. As such this epistle while directed to the believers living in Ephesus, is also directed to the faithful in Christ Jesus (everywhere else). Of course it would have been better had Paul written, "to all the faithful in Christ Jesus," but I don't think Paul ever thought his letters would be scrutinized for every jot and tittle - case in point:
DANG.... Pronoun hell.
You might recall in a previous post, when we were discussing why there are hundreds of different interpretations held by innumerable believers all of whom are convinced the Holy Spirit taught them the right thing, I had replied "Definitional Framework" - by which I meant that people have different definitions of words than you or I (and their definitions are typically fuzzy). Even today, there are some absolutely pure Modalists who call themselves Trinitarian just because they see three modes.Not to mention that I've personally seen the word "Faith" being used in Five different ways. (There are Five different and distinct definitions of "faith," so when I hear someone talking about "faith" I have absolutely no idea what they mean until more information is provided.)
What I had not mentioned, is that the most frustrating thing in establishing a Definition Framework is dealing with Pronoun Hell. He (he who?). This (this what?). You (You who?)... apologies for the pun. Sometimes pronouns can be easily clarified. Other times... one might wish to curse the author for not thinking ahead two thousand years.
Now I read most of the paper you referenced, but will admit he rather lost me in the maze of Pronoun Hell, and from my experience, it is not wise to establish a doctrine or an exegesis based upon pronouns.
But yes, while I'd like to smack Paul upside the back of the head for not clarifying this US / YOU dichotomy, I think the most simple explanation (presented below) is more likely. As we move past verse one, which avoids the possibility of one of the faithful in Christ Jesus living in Antioch to say, well that epistle is only for those in Ephesus, we move to the rather anti-Trinitarian verse two:
Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.- Ephesians 1:2 KJV
Since it would be somewhat gauche for Paul to bless himself, the "you" (plural) here would be to every Christian. And now we get to the passage from verse three to verse twelve that's been identified as problematic. (I've highlighted the relevant pronouns.)
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.- Ephesians 1:3-12 KJV
So who are the "we" and the "us" in this passage ??? If the "us" excludes the Ephesians, it may well be that Paul was speaking of his ministry team. The key phrases being "made known unto us the mystery of his will," (that mystery being the inclusion of Gentiles) and "we... who first trusted in Christ," (because y'all were second in trusting). But there are a lot of us's and we's in that passage of blessings, and it makes Paul sound like he's better than everyone else. And we should admit that all the blessings in this passage could easily refer not only to the Ephesians, but to all believers. Yeah, all them, ... besides the two I've just identified as possibly applying only to Paul and his team.
But we could include the Ephesians (as well as the faithful in Christ Jesus) to whom it was made known the mystery of the inclusion of the Gentiles - after all, they were Gentiles, and would need to believe this "mystery."
And with regards to the passage "we... who first trusted in Christ," this "we" could still include the Ephesians (as well as all the faithful in Christ Jesus) if we expand the scope to include ALL of the "blessings" in verses three through twelve to those who have yet to trust in Christ. We (us) first, but then also "them others" later. And while I admit this explanation is a stretch, it also doesn't matter, because...
The word "first" isn't in the Greek text. What you see as "first trusted" (two English words, is actually written as one Greek word - προηλπικοτας (the perfect active participle of the verb). And so I provide:
LINK to the Liddell Scott Lexicon for G4276 προελπίζω proelpizō
A.hope for before: generally, anticipate, expect
Eph 1:12) That we should be IN the praise of his glory - the anticipation in Christ."
(This is why I hate doing exegesis in English.)
So as I step back and consider all the things attributed to these "US" people, the most simple explanation is that this "WE" refers to every believer in general. And I would request that everyone re-read the above passage with this in mind, that the definition of these "we" and "us" people are all of the believers who embraced Paul's Gospel message.
So why then, did Paul switch to a "you" (plural) perspective in verse 13?
Because everything that follows was specific to the Ephesians and not to Paul himself.
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints, Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers; That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:- Ephesians 1:13-17 KJV
How could Paul have included himself in this passage? The pronoun switch is a simple change of perspective. Paul's trust came through his Damascus Epiphany, not after the manner whereby the Ephesians heard and trusted. Meaning Paul cannot use the pronouns "us" and "we."
And it would seem that the church in Ephesus was not started by Paul, since he "heard of their faith in the Lord Jesus," from someone else. And what he heard about the church in Ephesus, cause him to pray that "the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:" (As a side note, this begs the question as to why Paul did not write "that the Lord Jesus Christ may give unto the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him." It's yet another verse with a weird anti-Trinitarian feel.)
Would Paul need to pray that he himself be given the spirit of wisdom and revelation? One would think not, which is why the pronoun y'all was used instead of us.
Sometimes I think people get bogged down in the weeds, and entangle themselves with convoluted explanations when they ought to cut themselves free with Occam's Razor.
Blessings,
Rhema
Sure there is; general statements that apply to all believers: Paul, the Ephesians, and others faithful in Christ Jesus from other cities. (I thought I had explained that. Sorry.) At verse 13 Paul speaks to matters that only pertain to "them" (the Ephesians).Firstly, if verses 3-12 include the Ephesians there's no point making a distinction to begin with.
I'm not sure that your distinction of us-Jew v. you-Gentile is as pristine as you would like.The whole idea of chapters one and two is how God has made one new man of the two, Jew and Gentile.
Granted, I stopped at verse 17, but again there is no direct statement that "tells us that the saints are the Jews." Would Paul actually call all Jews "saints"? Or only the believing Jews?That he opens with the saints and then in chapter 2 tells us that the saints are the Jews
Just where does it actually say this?That he opens with the saints and then in chapter 2 tells us that the saints are the Jews
So can you, my dear @Butch5.Well, you can be wrong. That's your prerogative.
Except that it's grammar Chris. I didn't create the rules of grammar. However, if I'm to properly understand the text I must follow the rules of grammar. We all must. If we don't it's very likely we're going to be wrong. All of the events listed save except one are in the past tense. As I pointed out, heavenlies is neuter in gender. The word "places" is added by the translators. How exactly where the Ephesians blessed with all spiritual blessings in Heavenly places? Did the Ephesians go to Heaven? If the blessings are in Heavenly places how did the Ephesians get them?So can you, my dear @Butch5.
We have discussed this portion of Scripture before, and I gave your words careful consideration at the time, grammatically as you directed, and by comparing Scripture with Scripture, and so have not rejected it lightly.
'Heavenly places' simply means the heavenly spheres: We are told that our Lord has ascended far above all heavens. See Eph. 1:20; 2:6; 3:10; 6:12. (Gr. epouranios. May the Lord be the arbiter in this as with all things concerning His word.
in Christ Jesus
Our risen and Glorified
Saviour, Lord and Head.
Chris
Hello @Butch5,
- Except that it's grammar Chris. I didn't create the rules of grammar. However, if I'm to properly understand the text I must follow the rules of grammar. We all must. If we don't it's very likely we're going to be wrong. All of the events listed save except one are in the past tense. As I pointed out, heavenlies is neuter in gender. The word "places" is added by the translators. How exactly where the Ephesians blessed with all spiritual blessings in Heavenly places? Did the Ephesians go to Heaven? If the blessings are in Heavenly places how did the Ephesians get them?
Yes, in verse 13, Paul is talking to those who were now very much nigh unto God, in Christ Jesus, being now members of God's household. I do not dispute that. However I believe that in the writing of this epistle, Paul had both in mind, in Christ, addressed corporately as 'Saints' & 'Faithful' in verse 1:and so, right from the beginning the words spoken, were a description of what had been received by both Jew and Gentile among them, and verse 13 gives the 'how', and 'why' of what had already been accomplished, 'in' Christ Jesus, for the gentiles among them.The first-person plural pronouns, us, we, and our, are either inclusive or exclusive. The context determines which it is. The first-person pronouns include the writer/speaker. Second person plural pronouns address someone other than the writer/speaker. Paul's switch in verse 13 from us, we, our, to you and your requires that he is addressing a group that does not include him. That means that Paul is using us, our, we, exclusively, not inclusively. That's not my opinion. They are rules of language. I didn't make them. There's an "us" group and a "you" group. Again, that's the language, not me. In chapter 2 Paul states plainly who this "you" group is.
11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands—12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. The New King James Version Eph 2:11–13.Paul states plainly that the "you" group is the Gentiles. In this case the Gentiles in Ephesus. So, Paul said God had done all of those things in verses 3-12 for the "Us" group. Again, not my opinion. It's stated right there. As I said, it's rules of grammar and language, It's not me giving my opinion or interpretation.
The problem is that Paul said they had already received them. If the Ephesians receive them at the Resurrection then it cannot be the Ephesians that Paul is speaking of in verses 3-12Hello @Butch5,
They will receive these blessings in resurrection glory, in Christ Jesus.. For unlike the promises given to the nation of Israel, which were to be received in basket and store, in the city and in the field (Deut. 28), these blessings in Ephesians 3 are all spiritual.
He did have bith in mind. His point is to show had God made one of the two. However, as has been pointed out verses 3-12 cannot refer to the Ephesians. If that were the case his argument fall apart and he'd have no reason take a distinction. The blessings in Christ do apply to the Ephesians, however, it's after they believed.Yes, in verse 13, Paul is talking to those who were now very much nigh unto God, in Christ Jesus, being now members of God's household. I do not dispute that. However I believe that in the writing of this epistle, Paul had both in mind, in Christ, addressed corporately as 'Saints' & 'Faithful' in verse 1:and so, right from the beginning the words spoken, were a description of what had been received by both Jew and Gentile among them, and verse 13 gives the 'how', and 'why' of what had already been accomplished, 'in' Christ Jesus, for the gentiles among them.
Sure, that's the whole point of his argument. His point is to explain how that has happened. It started with the Jews, of which Christ was, and then flowed later to the Gentiles. Paul is explaining how God did it. He started with Abraham worked through Israel to Christ and then to the Gentiles.So now, I can ,as a member of the church of the one body of which Christ is the Head, read this letter as for me, and rejoice in all that God has done for each member corporately in Christ Jesus: As one company consisting of both Jew and Gentile believers, equal and united in Christ Jesus their Lord. I do not deny the grammar of the passage, just do not use it as you have done.
Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
'Heavenly places' simply means the heavenly spheres: We are told that our Lord has ascended far above all heavens. See Eph. 1:20; 2:6; 3:10; 6:12. (Gr. epouranios. May the Lord be the arbiter in this as with all things concerning His word.
Okayyyyyy.... If I may be allowed to clarify a grammatical minutia ??Except that it's grammar Chris. I didn't create the rules of grammar. However, if I'm to properly understand the text I must follow the rules of grammar. We all must. If we don't it's very likely we're going to be wrong. All of the events listed save except one are in the past tense. As I pointed out, heavenlies is neuter in gender. The word "places" is added by the translators. How exactly where the Ephesians blessed with all spiritual blessings in Heavenly places? Did the Ephesians go to Heaven? If the blessings are in Heavenly places how did the Ephesians get them?
But Paul was writing to believers.The blessings in Christ do apply to the Ephesians, however, it's after they believed.
It was. My point is that it's not a location. Every single one of us is on earth. Now Paul could have been using metaphor, but that goes to my point it's not literal.Okayyyyyy.... If I may be allowed to clarify a grammatical minutia ??
"Heavenly" (G2032 ἐπουράνιος epouranios), while indeed an adjective, is an Substantive Adjective:
"Unlike most adjectives, which modify nouns, a substantive adjective is used to replace a noun. Often seen in ancient Greek and Latin,..A substantive adjective, however, does not modify a noun in a sentence, it replaces the noun. Therefore, a substantive adjective can only be successfully used when the noun in question is understood without being explicitly stated."
I would highly recommend that y'all read the link... or you may find your own reference if need be. It was the first that popped up on my search, and it seems adequate to convey the concept.
So was "places," a good choice for the clarifier of the Substantive? Would "powers" be better? Maybe perhaps "status"?
I would suggest that 2:6 was the key verse used by the KJV for the selection of "places," used in all five verses, though the last gloss (in 6:12) had been changed to "high" (places). Likely because the translators didn't want to imply that Satan was in heaven.
And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:- Ephesians 2:6 KJV
We were "raised up" and "made to sit." Where? Well, one sits in a location, hence "places." But the operative word "sit" is G4776 συγκαθίζω sugkathizō and so I provide:
A LINK to the Liddell Scott Lexicon for G4776
A. make to sit together or in a body,
It's likely, given Paul's use of his phrase "body of Christ," that he wasn't thinking of an actual "place," but more a kind of sympathetic magic or "resonance." We died with him, we were raised with him... etc. (I'm sure you know the numerous references where our status is compared, fused even, with that of Christ). Was this all literal or figurative?
While I'm sure the recipients of the epistle knew the object of the Substantive "heavenly," we do have the five verses listed by @complete, ALL of which have a definite article "the heavenlies" (curiously omitted by the KJV except for 1:20). In reading all these five, might one find a better clarifier for the Substantive in the prepositional phrase "εν τοις επουρανιοις" (in the heavenlies)?
I had offered status, as one might well think that "place" isn't literal to mean a location, but rather a position of status. Along with "status" we have other options like position as in rank or standing. (We share in Christ's heavenly standing....)
In the end, though, it may well be best to leave things alone and translate "εν τοις επουρανιοις" as "in the heavenly things" to satisfy the plural and neuter properties of the Substantive (adjective).
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings "εν τοις επουρανιοις" (in the heavenly things) in Christ:- Ephesians 1:3 KJV
Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand "εν τοις επουρανιοις" (in the heavenly things),- Ephesians 1:20 KJV
And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together "εν τοις επουρανιοις" (in the heavenly things) in Christ Jesus:- Ephesians 2:6 KJV
To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers "εν τοις επουρανιοις" (in the heavenly things) might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,- Ephesians 3:10 KJV
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness "εν τοις επουρανιοις" (in the heavenly things).- Ephesians 6:12 KJV
I hope it was worth my time.
Rhema
Yes, he was. Consider I'm away from home and I write a letter. I address it to my family to my beloved family. However, in the letter I address my son John and tell him what I want him to do. In another part I address.my daughter and give her instructions. The letter is to the family, however, the instructions I gave to my son are not for my daughter. Again, the letter is addressed to all, however everything written in it doesn't apply to all.But Paul was writing to believers.
No ???
Hello @Rhema,Okayyyyyy.... If I may be allowed to clarify a grammatical minutia ??
"Heavenly" (G2032 ἐπουράνιος epouranios), while indeed an adjective, is an Substantive Adjective:
"Unlike most adjectives, which modify nouns, a substantive adjective is used to replace a noun. Often seen in ancient Greek and Latin,..A substantive adjective, however, does not modify a noun in a sentence, it replaces the noun. Therefore, a substantive adjective can only be successfully used when the noun in question is understood without being explicitly stated."
I would highly recommend that y'all read the link... or you may find your own reference if need be. It was the first that popped up on my search, and it seems adequate to convey the concept.
So was "places," a good choice for the clarifier of the Substantive? Would "powers" be better? Maybe perhaps "status"?
I would suggest that 2:6 was the key verse used by the KJV for the selection of "places," used in all five verses, though the last gloss (in 6:12) had been changed to "high" (places). Likely because the translators didn't want to imply that Satan was in heaven.
And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:- Ephesians 2:6 KJV
We were "raised up" and "made to sit." Where? Well, one sits in a location, hence "places." But the operative word "sit" is G4776 συγκαθίζω sugkathizō and so I provide:
A LINK to the Liddell Scott Lexicon for G4776
A. make to sit together or in a body,
It's likely, given Paul's use of his phrase "body of Christ," that he wasn't thinking of an actual "place," but more a kind of sympathetic magic or "resonance." We died with him, we were raised with him... etc. (I'm sure you know the numerous references where our status is compared, fused even, with that of Christ). Was this all literal or figurative?
While I'm sure the recipients of the epistle knew the object of the Substantive "heavenly," we do have the five verses listed by @complete, ALL of which have a definite article "the heavenlies" (curiously omitted by the KJV except for 1:20). In reading all these five, might one find a better clarifier for the Substantive in the prepositional phrase "εν τοις επουρανιοις" (in the heavenlies)?
I had offered status, as one might well think that "place" isn't literal to mean a location, but rather a position of status. Along with "status" we have other options like position as in rank or standing. (We share in Christ's heavenly standing....)
In the end, though, it may well be best to leave things alone and translate "εν τοις επουρανιοις" as "in the heavenly things" to satisfy the plural and neuter properties of the Substantive (adjective).
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings "εν τοις επουρανιοις" (in the heavenly things) in Christ:- Ephesians 1:3 KJV
Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand "εν τοις επουρανιοις" (in the heavenly things),- Ephesians 1:20 KJV
And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together "εν τοις επουρανιοις" (in the heavenly things) in Christ Jesus:- Ephesians 2:6 KJV
To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers "εν τοις επουρανιοις" (in the heavenly things) might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,- Ephesians 3:10 KJV
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness "εν τοις επουρανιοις" (in the heavenly things).- Ephesians 6:12 KJV
I hope it was worth my time.
Rhema
Not all of Isreal are born again Isreal .Just as all that claim to be Christian the new name the Father named are born again.Both of these passages are addressed to Israel. Is every single Israelite going to be saved?
Salvation is of good works . . The better things that accompany born again salvation. Both in Philippians 2:13 the father empowering to hear his understnding of faith and empower dying mankind to do it according to the power of His Holy name.Can you make your case for Calvinism if you put all of those passages back into their context? It's not hard to support jut about anything if we rip Scripture from it's context. One could claim salvation is by works and grab this passage.