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God's Word: Believe it, Reject it, or Explain why it does not mean what it says.

Group one is the saints and group two is the faithful in Christ Jesus.
Well there goes the universal sainthood of all believers. :rolleyes:

Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:​
- Ephesians 1:1 KJV

If I may, the word "saint" is used as an English gloss for G40 ἅγιος hagios, and is an adjective in the phrase αγιοις τοις (saintly ones). Now if both groups, the "saintly ones" and the "faithful" are ουσιν εν εφεσω (existing-being in Ephesus), I can see where a two party distinction might be made. But such a distinction hinges on the word G40 ἅγιος hagios, and I provide a -

LINK to the Liddell Scott Lexicon for G40
A. devoted to the gods:

In short, if there actually is a two party distinction of those living in Ephesus, the "saintly ones" are the clergy; the bishops and priests (the saintly ones whose lives are DEVOTED TO GOD) that Paul appointed as he started to create a structure of Ecclesiastical Authority in the churches he founded - while the "faithful in Christ Jesus" are just that, the believers that are commonly identified today as laity.

HOWEVER....

The text does not read, "to the saints and those faithful in Christ Jesus being in Ephesus." So while I agree that two groups of people are clearly identified here, the distinction focuses on ουσιν εν εφεσω - those existing-being in Ephesus and those not.

Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:​
- Ephesians 1:1 KJV

Paul had always instructed his letters to be read in all the churches he founded. As such this epistle while directed to the believers living in Ephesus, is also directed to the faithful in Christ Jesus (everywhere else). Of course it would have been better had Paul written, "to all the faithful in Christ Jesus," but I don't think Paul ever thought his letters would be scrutinized for every jot and tittle - case in point:
I think you may find this interesting.

https://pfrs.org/commentary/Eph_1_3.pdf
DANG.... Pronoun hell.

You might recall in a previous post, when we were discussing why there are hundreds of different interpretations held by innumerable believers all of whom are convinced the Holy Spirit taught them the right thing, I had replied "Definitional Framework" - by which I meant that people have different definitions of words than you or I (and their definitions are typically fuzzy). Even today, there are some absolutely pure Modalists who call themselves Trinitarian just because they see three modes. :confused: Not to mention that I've personally seen the word "Faith" being used in Five different ways. (There are Five different and distinct definitions of "faith," so when I hear someone talking about "faith" I have absolutely no idea what they mean until more information is provided.)

What I had not mentioned, is that the most frustrating thing in establishing a Definition Framework is dealing with Pronoun Hell. He (he who?). This (this what?). You (You who?)... apologies for the pun. Sometimes pronouns can be easily clarified. Other times... one might wish to curse the author for not thinking ahead two thousand years.

Now I read most of the paper you referenced, but will admit he rather lost me in the maze of Pronoun Hell, and from my experience, it is not wise to establish a doctrine or an exegesis based upon pronouns.

But yes, while I'd like to smack Paul upside the back of the head for not clarifying this US / YOU dichotomy, I think the most simple explanation (presented below) is more likely. As we move past verse one, which avoids the possibility of one of the faithful in Christ Jesus living in Antioch to say, well that epistle is only for those in Ephesus, we move to the rather anti-Trinitarian verse two:

Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.​
- Ephesians 1:2 KJV

Since it would be somewhat gauche for Paul to bless himself, the "you" (plural) here would be to every Christian. And now we get to the passage from verse three to verse twelve that's been identified as problematic. (I've highlighted the relevant pronouns.)

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
- Ephesians 1:3-12 KJV

So who are the "we" and the "us" in this passage ??? If the "us" excludes the Ephesians, it may well be that Paul was speaking of his ministry team. The key phrases being "made known unto us the mystery of his will," (that mystery being the inclusion of Gentiles) and "we... who first trusted in Christ," (because y'all were second in trusting). But there are a lot of us's and we's in that passage of blessings, and it makes Paul sound like he's better than everyone else. And we should admit that all the blessings in this passage could easily refer not only to the Ephesians, but to all believers. Yeah, all them, ... besides the two I've just identified as possibly applying only to Paul and his team.

But we could include the Ephesians (as well as the faithful in Christ Jesus) to whom it was made known the mystery of the inclusion of the Gentiles - after all, they were Gentiles, and would need to believe this "mystery."

And with regards to the passage "we... who first trusted in Christ," this "we" could still include the Ephesians (as well as all the faithful in Christ Jesus) if we expand the scope to include ALL of the "blessings" in verses three through twelve to those who have yet to trust in Christ. We (us) first, but then also "them others" later. And while I admit this explanation is a stretch, it also doesn't matter, because...

The word "first" isn't in the Greek text. What you see as "first trusted" (two English words, is actually written as one Greek word - προηλπικοτας (the perfect active participle of the verb). And so I provide:

LINK to the Liddell Scott Lexicon for G4276 προελπίζω proelpizō
A.hope for before: generally, anticipate, expect

Eph 1:12) That we should be IN the praise of his glory - the anticipation in Christ."

(This is why I hate doing exegesis in English.)

So as I step back and consider all the things attributed to these "US" people, the most simple explanation is that this "WE" refers to every believer in general. And I would request that everyone re-read the above passage with this in mind, that the definition of these "we" and "us" people are all of the believers who embraced Paul's Gospel message.

So why then, did Paul switch to a "you" (plural) perspective in verse 13?

Because everything that follows was specific to the Ephesians and not to Paul himself.

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints, Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers; That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
- Ephesians 1:13-17 KJV

How could Paul have included himself in this passage? The pronoun switch is a simple change of perspective. Paul's trust came through his Damascus Epiphany, not after the manner whereby the Ephesians heard and trusted. Meaning Paul cannot use the pronouns "us" and "we."

And it would seem that the church in Ephesus was not started by Paul, since he "heard of their faith in the Lord Jesus," from someone else. And what he heard about the church in Ephesus, cause him to pray that "the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:" (As a side note, this begs the question as to why Paul did not write "that the Lord Jesus Christ may give unto the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him." It's yet another verse with a weird anti-Trinitarian feel.)

Would Paul need to pray that he himself be given the spirit of wisdom and revelation? One would think not, which is why the pronoun y'all was used instead of us.

Sometimes I think people get bogged down in the weeds, and entangle themselves with convoluted explanations when they ought to cut themselves free with Occam's Razor.

Blessings,
Rhema
 
God didn't inspire any of man's "translations."
Thank you for making my point. Neither you nor Curtis has an inspired Bible if you're using a translation since..."God didn't inspire any of man's "translations."

He inspired his word, which we have today and which we have always had in his vernacular Bibles.
What the heck is a VERNACULAR Bible? You think you sound educated when you fart out stupid words like this? I think I may need to nickname you Dunning-Kruger (DK for short).

Your claim has no semantic value. If you mean any Bible that is translated in the vernacular, then the stupidly is all the more compounded since this would mean that you believe the following two verses mean exactly the same thing.

From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.​
- Matthew 4:17 KJV

From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say: Do penance, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.​
- Matthew 4:17 DRB

I'd beg you to use your brain before posting, but it's become clear that this would place an undue burden upon your soul.

Rhema

@Curtis - be a man, gird up your loins and answer for yourself.
 
Well there goes the universal sainthood of all believers. :rolleyes:

Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:​
- Ephesians 1:1 KJV

If I may, the word "saint" is used as an English gloss for G40 ἅγιος hagios, and is an adjective in the phrase αγιοις τοις (saintly ones). Now if both groups, the "saintly ones" and the "faithful" are ουσιν εν εφεσω (existing-being in Ephesus), I can see where a two party distinction might be made. But such a distinction hinges on the word G40 ἅγιος hagios, and I provide a -

LINK to the Liddell Scott Lexicon for G40
A. devoted to the gods:

In short, if there actually is a two party distinction of those living in Ephesus, the "saintly ones" are the clergy; the bishops and priests (the saintly ones whose lives are DEVOTED TO GOD) that Paul appointed as he started to create a structure of Ecclesiastical Authority in the churches he founded - while the "faithful in Christ Jesus" are just that, the believers that are commonly identified today as laity.

HOWEVER....

The text does not read, "to the saints and those faithful in Christ Jesus being in Ephesus." So while I agree that two groups of people are clearly identified here, the distinction focuses on ουσιν εν εφεσω - those existing-being in Ephesus and those not.

Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:​
- Ephesians 1:1 KJV

Paul had always instructed his letters to be read in all the churches he founded. As such this epistle while directed to the believers living in Ephesus, is also directed to the faithful in Christ Jesus (everywhere else). Of course it would have been better had Paul written, "to all the faithful in Christ Jesus," but I don't think Paul ever thought his letters would be scrutinized for every jot and tittle - case in point:

DANG.... Pronoun hell.

You might recall in a previous post, when we were discussing why there are hundreds of different interpretations held by innumerable believers all of whom are convinced the Holy Spirit taught them the right thing, I had replied "Definitional Framework" - by which I meant that people have different definitions of words than you or I (and their definitions are typically fuzzy). Even today, there are some absolutely pure Modalists who call themselves Trinitarian just because they see three modes. :confused: Not to mention that I've personally seen the word "Faith" being used in Five different ways. (There are Five different and distinct definitions of "faith," so when I hear someone talking about "faith" I have absolutely no idea what they mean until more information is provided.)

What I had not mentioned, is that the most frustrating thing in establishing a Definition Framework is dealing with Pronoun Hell. He (he who?). This (this what?). You (You who?)... apologies for the pun. Sometimes pronouns can be easily clarified. Other times... one might wish to curse the author for not thinking ahead two thousand years.

Now I read most of the paper you referenced, but will admit he rather lost me in the maze of Pronoun Hell, and from my experience, it is not wise to establish a doctrine or an exegesis based upon pronouns.

But yes, while I'd like to smack Paul upside the back of the head for not clarifying this US / YOU dichotomy, I think the most simple explanation (presented below) is more likely. As we move past verse one, which avoids the possibility of one of the faithful in Christ Jesus living in Antioch to say, well that epistle is only for those in Ephesus, we move to the rather anti-Trinitarian verse two:

Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.​
- Ephesians 1:2 KJV

Since it would be somewhat gauche for Paul to bless himself, the "you" (plural) here would be to every Christian. And now we get to the passage from verse three to verse twelve that's been identified as problematic. (I've highlighted the relevant pronouns.)

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
- Ephesians 1:3-12 KJV

So who are the "we" and the "us" in this passage ??? If the "us" excludes the Ephesians, it may well be that Paul was speaking of his ministry team. The key phrases being "made known unto us the mystery of his will," (that mystery being the inclusion of Gentiles) and "we... who first trusted in Christ," (because y'all were second in trusting). But there are a lot of us's and we's in that passage of blessings, and it makes Paul sound like he's better than everyone else. And we should admit that all the blessings in this passage could easily refer not only to the Ephesians, but to all believers. Yeah, all them, ... besides the two I've just identified as possibly applying only to Paul and his team.

But we could include the Ephesians (as well as the faithful in Christ Jesus) to whom it was made known the mystery of the inclusion of the Gentiles - after all, they were Gentiles, and would need to believe this "mystery."

And with regards to the passage "we... who first trusted in Christ," this "we" could still include the Ephesians (as well as all the faithful in Christ Jesus) if we expand the scope to include ALL of the "blessings" in verses three through twelve to those who have yet to trust in Christ. We (us) first, but then also "them others" later. And while I admit this explanation is a stretch, it also doesn't matter, because...

The word "first" isn't in the Greek text. What you see as "first trusted" (two English words, is actually written as one Greek word - προηλπικοτας (the perfect active participle of the verb). And so I provide:

LINK to the Liddell Scott Lexicon for G4276 προελπίζω proelpizō
A.hope for before: generally, anticipate, expect

Eph 1:12) That we should be IN the praise of his glory - the anticipation in Christ."

(This is why I hate doing exegesis in English.)

So as I step back and consider all the things attributed to these "US" people, the most simple explanation is that this "WE" refers to every believer in general. And I would request that everyone re-read the above passage with this in mind, that the definition of these "we" and "us" people are all of the believers who embraced Paul's Gospel message.

So why then, did Paul switch to a "you" (plural) perspective in verse 13?

Because everything that follows was specific to the Ephesians and not to Paul himself.

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints, Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers; That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
- Ephesians 1:13-17 KJV

How could Paul have included himself in this passage? The pronoun switch is a simple change of perspective. Paul's trust came through his Damascus Epiphany, not after the manner whereby the Ephesians heard and trusted. Meaning Paul cannot use the pronouns "us" and "we."

And it would seem that the church in Ephesus was not started by Paul, since he "heard of their faith in the Lord Jesus," from someone else. And what he heard about the church in Ephesus, cause him to pray that "the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:" (As a side note, this begs the question as to why Paul did not write "that the Lord Jesus Christ may give unto the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him." It's yet another verse with a weird anti-Trinitarian feel.)

Would Paul need to pray that he himself be given the spirit of wisdom and revelation? One would think not, which is why the pronoun y'all was used instead of us.

Sometimes I think people get bogged down in the weeds, and entangle themselves with convoluted explanations when they ought to cut themselves free with Occam's Razor.

Blessings,
Rhema
Firstly, if verses 3-12 include the Ephesians there's no point making a distinction to begin with. The whole idea of chapters one and two is how God has made one new man of the two, Jew and Gentile. That he opens with the saints and then in chapter 2 tells us that the saints are the Jews also tells us there are two groups. It doesn't make much sense for Paul to pray that the Ephesians get enlightened about the very things they've already experienced.

"Blessed be" is a Hebraism that suggests that Paul is speaking to Jews.
Please show from Scripture where the Ephesians had previously been blessed with all spiritual blessings
Please show from Scripture where the Ephesians had been chosen before the foundation of the world.
Please show from Scripture where the Ephesians had received an inheritance.
Please show from Scripture where God had abounded towards the Ephesians in all wisdom and prudence.
Please show from Scripture where God had made His wisdom known to the Ephesians.

All of this can be shown of Israel. Can it be shown of the Ephesians?

People can claim it means whatever they want it to mean. That doesn't mean it means what they say. The pronouns make it crystal clear what Paul is saying. There is no "pronoun hell." Us, we, and our, are either inclusive or exclusive. His change to second person plural pronouns shows that He is using, us, we, and our, exclusively. He is not including the Ephesians. He's speaking of the Jews. There's nothing that says God made His will known to the Ephesians, Paul did that. The Ephesians hadn't received an inheritance. They had just gotten the downpayment on theirs. The adoption didn't belong to the Ephesians. It belonged to the Jews.

3 For I could wish that myself were eaccursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: 4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; 5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. King James Version, Ro 9:3–5.

There's the adoption. It belongs to Israel, not the Ephesians. So do the covenants, the service, the giving, and the promises. Notice, these all belong to the fathers and it was concerning the fathers that Christ came. He came as a fulfillment of the promises, particularly to Abraham.

None of this was to the Ephesians. The Ephesians,

13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. King James, Eph 1:13–14.

After they heard the word, they were grafted into Israel and as such are now partakers of the promises. The key is, after, they heard.

16 tCease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers; 17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: 18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, 19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, 20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21 Far above all kprincipality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: King James Version, Eph 1:16–21.

Now, if Paul had just told the Ephesians that God had abounded toward them in all wisdom and prudence, why is praying that God would give them the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him? If God had abounded towards the Ephesians in all wisdom and prudence, they would already have the knowledge and revelation of God. Paul wouldn't need to pray that they get it. It doesn't make sense to pray that God would give the Ephesians something that Paul just said God gave them. It makes no sense.

Why is Paul praying that God will give the Ephesians understanding of the hope of His calling if Paul said that God had already done this? It doesn't make sense for Paul to pray to God to give the Ephesians something that Paul had just said that God had given them. It doesn't make sense.

Why is Paul praying that God would enlighten the Ephesians about His inheritance in the saints if God had already told them this? It doesn't make sense.

It doesn't make sense for Paul to pray that God give these things to the Ephesians if he just said that God had already done so.


Also, if the Ephesians are the saints, then how is it that Paul is praying God will enlighten them about it. If the Ephesians are already Christians and Christians are the saints, then they should already have that inheritance. Why then did Paul say the Ephesians had their downpayment on their inheritance? The saints already had their inheritance.

Sorry, there are too many issues, and we have to throw away the grammar to try and use the typical Christian understanding of the passage. That understanding is simply wrong. It doesn't fit the context, and it doesn't work with the grammar.
 
Firstly, if verses 3-12 include the Ephesians there's no point making a distinction to begin with.
Sure there is; general statements that apply to all believers: Paul, the Ephesians, and others faithful in Christ Jesus from other cities. (I thought I had explained that. Sorry.) At verse 13 Paul speaks to matters that only pertain to "them" (the Ephesians).

The whole idea of chapters one and two is how God has made one new man of the two, Jew and Gentile.
I'm not sure that your distinction of us-Jew v. you-Gentile is as pristine as you would like.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:​
- Ephesians 2:8 KJV

As I understand your Definitional Framework, then, there actually would be a two path Salvation plan. The YE of the Gentiles through faith, and... some other plan for the "not ye" (the us-Jews).

One of the major points that I thought I made (and apparently failed at) is that one should be very reluctant to base theological distinctions based only on pronouns. There is never any verse that I can find (unless I missed it) that overtly states us means Jews and you means Gentiles.

That he opens with the saints and then in chapter 2 tells us that the saints are the Jews
Granted, I stopped at verse 17, but again there is no direct statement that "tells us that the saints are the Jews." Would Paul actually call all Jews "saints"? Or only the believing Jews?

Now you've made the Definitional connection that Saints = Jews, but does this fit with how Paul used that word throughout all his other epistles?

Was the Epistle of Romans only to the Jews? Because Paul doesn't list anyone else.

(Paul) ... To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called saints (i.e. Jews): Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.​
- Romans 1:7 KJV

Interesting, but that would mean the Spirit itself maketh intercession only for the Jews:

Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints (i.e. Jews) according to the will of God.​
- Romans 8:26-27 KJV

And only the Jews should get financial support:

Distributing to the necessity of saints (Jews); given to hospitality.​
- Romans 12:13 KJV

But then again, maybe you're right:

But now I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints (Jews). For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem. It hath pleased them verily; and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their {these Jews} spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them {these Jews} in carnal things.
- Romans 15:25-27 KJV

So the Gentiles having been partakers of spiritual things from the Jews have a duty to minister in carnal things (money) to these Jews. Fascinating....

Now I beseech you, brethren, for the Lord Jesus Christ's sake, and for the love of the Spirit, that ye strive together with me in your prayers to God for me; That I may be delivered from them in Judaea that do not believe ; and that my service which I have for Jerusalem may be accepted of the saints;​
- Romans 15:30-31 KJV

Yet if Romans was written only for the "saints" (i.e. Jews) then how is he getting money from the Gentiles to give to "poor saints (Jews)" and is this money being given to Jews who do not believe as a practice of missionary evangelism? You raise some interesting questions.

I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea: That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints Jews, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also.​
- Romans 16:1-2 KJV

Salute Philologus, and Julia, Nereus, and his sister, and Olympas, and all the saints Jews which are with them.​
- Romans 16:15 KJV

(Paul) Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called saints Jews, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:​
- 1 Corinthians 1:2 KJV

Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints Jews? Do ye not know that the saints Jews shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?​
- 1 Corinthians 6:1-2 KJV

For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints Jews.​
- 1 Corinthians 14:33 KJV

If Paul is not consistent in his own Definitional Framework about whom these saints are, I think that such would cause confusion. Granted the "saints" = Jews creates a profound paradigm shift, so I ought to say here I have not done the 30 hours (or three months) of drill downs to draw any conclusion. And there are some intriguing passages that might establish this (might).

Now concerning the collection for the saints Jews, ... whomsoever ye shall approve by your letters, them will I send to bring your liberality unto Jerusalem.​
- 1 Corinthians 16:1-3 KJV

I beseech you, brethren, (ye know the house of Stephanas, that it is the firstfruits of Achaia, and that they have addicted themselves to the ministry of the saints Jews,)​
- 1 Corinthians 16:15 KJV

Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints Jews which are in all Achaia:​
- 2 Corinthians 1:1 KJV

Praying us with much intreaty that we would receive the gift, and take upon us the fellowship of the ministering to the saints Jews.​
- 2 Corinthians 8:4 KJV

For as touching the ministering to the saints Jews, it is superfluous for me to write to you:​
- 2 Corinthians 9:1 KJV

Now he that ministereth seed to the sower both minister bread for your food, and multiply your seed sown, and increase the fruits of your righteousness;) Being enriched in every thing to all bountifulness, which causeth through us thanksgiving to God. For the administration of this service not only supplieth the want of the saints Jews, but is abundant also by many thanksgivings unto God;​
- 2 Corinthians 9:10-12 KJV

I hadn't realized just how much the redistribution of wealth to poor Jewish people in Jerusalem was part of Paul's activity. Or was this just for poor believers in general?

Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you. Greet one another with an holy kiss. All the saints Jews salute you.​
- 2 Corinthians 13:11-13 KJV

And so now we arrive at the Epistle to the Ephesians. But maybe we should come back to that.

Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints Jews in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:​
- Philippians 1:1 KJV

Salute every saint Jew in Christ Jesus. The brethren which are with me greet you. All the saints Jews salute you, chiefly they that are of Caesar's household.​
- Philippians 4:21-22 KJV

To the saints Jews and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.​
- Colossians 1:2 KJV

Are we sure this distinction is not Clergy and Laity as I had suggested? Would Paul, being so adamant about neither Jew nor Gentile, keep fostering this division between the "HOLY ONES" (G40 Jews) and other believers?

Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the saints Jews,​
- Colossians 1:4 KJV

Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness; Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints Jews in light:​
- Colossians 1:11-12 KJV

Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints Jews: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:​
- Colossians 1:26-27 KJV

To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints Jews.​
- 1 Thessalonians 3:13 KJV

When he shall come to be glorified in his saints Jews, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.​
- 2 Thessalonians 1:10 KJV

Well reported of for good works; if she have brought up children, if she have lodged strangers, if she have washed the saints' Jews' feet, if she have relieved the afflicted, if she have diligently followed every good work.​
- 1 Timothy 5:10 KJV

Hearing of thy love and faith, which thou hast toward the Lord Jesus, and toward saints Jews; That the communication of thy faith may become effectual by the acknowledging of every good thing which is in you in Christ Jesus. For we have great joy and consolation in thy love, because the bowels of the saints Jews are refreshed by thee, brother.​
- Philemon 1:5-7 KJV

I'm omitting the passages in Hebrews since it's not certain that Paul was the author.

So onto Ephesians.....
That he opens with the saints and then in chapter 2 tells us that the saints are the Jews
Just where does it actually say this?

And to note, since we still have this "us" is saints is Jews thing, what of this verse:

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.​
- Ephesians 2:10 KJV

Was Paul speaking about this "we"-"us"-"saints"-"Jews" here?? Does this exclude, then, the Gentiles? This "we"-"you" dichotomy doesn't seem to be as pristine either - Is Paul talking about two groups in this next passage?

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.​
- Ephesians 2:8-10 KJV

The only verse in chapter two that could possibly "define" saints to be Jews is this one... (it's the only one with the word "saints").

Now therefore ye (Gentiles?) are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints Jews, and of the household of God;​
- Ephesians 2:19 KJV

So who are the household of God, then, I wonder ???

Now there are nine verses in Ephesians where the word "saints" is used. And I don't think that the Saints = Jews holds to scrutiny.

Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints Jews;​
- Ephesians 6:18 KJV

But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints Jews;​
- Ephesians 5:3 KJV

For the perfecting of the saints Jews, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:​
- Ephesians 4:12 KJV

May be able to comprehend with all saints Jews what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;​
- Ephesians 3:18 KJV

I'm not sure where to leave this. I know you have a LOT of other questions that you asked, which I hadn't even gotten to read yet. But if we cannot establish that "saints" does equal "us" - Jews, then ... where are we?

Thanks,
Rhema

(PS: I've not abandoned our PM... It's just that time is fleeting at the moment.)
 
Well, you can be wrong. That's your prerogative.
So can you, my dear @Butch5.

We have discussed this portion of Scripture before, and I gave your words careful consideration at the time, grammatically as you directed, and by comparing Scripture with Scripture, and so have not rejected it lightly.

'Heavenly places' simply means the heavenly spheres: We are told that our Lord has ascended far above all heavens. See Eph. 1:20; 2:6; 3:10; 6:12. (Gr. epouranios. May the Lord be the arbiter in this as with all things concerning His word.

in Christ Jesus
Our risen and Glorified
Saviour, Lord and Head.
Chris
 
So can you, my dear @Butch5.

We have discussed this portion of Scripture before, and I gave your words careful consideration at the time, grammatically as you directed, and by comparing Scripture with Scripture, and so have not rejected it lightly.

'Heavenly places' simply means the heavenly spheres: We are told that our Lord has ascended far above all heavens. See Eph. 1:20; 2:6; 3:10; 6:12. (Gr. epouranios. May the Lord be the arbiter in this as with all things concerning His word.

in Christ Jesus
Our risen and Glorified
Saviour, Lord and Head.
Chris
Except that it's grammar Chris. I didn't create the rules of grammar. However, if I'm to properly understand the text I must follow the rules of grammar. We all must. If we don't it's very likely we're going to be wrong. All of the events listed save except one are in the past tense. As I pointed out, heavenlies is neuter in gender. The word "places" is added by the translators. How exactly where the Ephesians blessed with all spiritual blessings in Heavenly places? Did the Ephesians go to Heaven? If the blessings are in Heavenly places how did the Ephesians get them?

The first-person plural pronouns, us, we, and our, are either inclusive or exclusive. The context determines which it is. The first-person pronouns include the writer/speaker. Second person plural pronouns address someone other than the writer/speaker. Paul's switch in verse 13 from us, we, our, to you and your requires that he is addressing a group that does not include him. That means that Paul is using us, our, we, exclusively, not inclusively. That's not my opinion. They are rules of language. I didn't make them. There's an "us" group and a "you" group. Again, that's the language, not me. In chapter 2 Paul states plainly who this "you" group is.

11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the fleshwho are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands—12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. The New King James Version Eph 2:11–13.

Paul states plainly that the "you" group is the Gentiles. In this case the Gentiles in Ephesus. So, Paul said God had done all of those things in verses 3-12 for the "Us" group. Again, not my opinion. It's stated right there. As I said, it's rules of grammar and language, It's not me giving my opinion or interpretation.

You're welcome to reject it, but please don't do so under the guise of disagreeing with me, It's the grammar and rules of language that you're disagreeing with, not me.

Yes, we have discussed this before. That's why I was surprised that you engage the post.
 
  • Except that it's grammar Chris. I didn't create the rules of grammar. However, if I'm to properly understand the text I must follow the rules of grammar. We all must. If we don't it's very likely we're going to be wrong. All of the events listed save except one are in the past tense. As I pointed out, heavenlies is neuter in gender. The word "places" is added by the translators. How exactly where the Ephesians blessed with all spiritual blessings in Heavenly places? Did the Ephesians go to Heaven? If the blessings are in Heavenly places how did the Ephesians get them?
Hello @Butch5,

They will receive these blessings in resurrection glory, in Christ Jesus.. For unlike the promises given to the nation of Israel, which were to be received in basket and store, in the city and in the field (Deut. 28), these blessings in Ephesians 3 are all spiritual.
The first-person plural pronouns, us, we, and our, are either inclusive or exclusive. The context determines which it is. The first-person pronouns include the writer/speaker. Second person plural pronouns address someone other than the writer/speaker. Paul's switch in verse 13 from us, we, our, to you and your requires that he is addressing a group that does not include him. That means that Paul is using us, our, we, exclusively, not inclusively. That's not my opinion. They are rules of language. I didn't make them. There's an "us" group and a "you" group. Again, that's the language, not me. In chapter 2 Paul states plainly who this "you" group is.​

11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the fleshwho are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands—12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. The New King James Version Eph 2:11–13.​
Paul states plainly that the "you" group is the Gentiles. In this case the Gentiles in Ephesus. So, Paul said God had done all of those things in verses 3-12 for the "Us" group. Again, not my opinion. It's stated right there. As I said, it's rules of grammar and language, It's not me giving my opinion or interpretation.​
Yes, in verse 13, Paul is talking to those who were now very much nigh unto God, in Christ Jesus, being now members of God's household. I do not dispute that. However I believe that in the writing of this epistle, Paul had both in mind, in Christ, addressed corporately as 'Saints' & 'Faithful' in verse 1:and so, right from the beginning the words spoken, were a description of what had been received by both Jew and Gentile among them, and verse 13 gives the 'how', and 'why' of what had already been accomplished, 'in' Christ Jesus, for the gentiles among them.

So now, I can ,as a member of the church of the one body of which Christ is the Head, read this letter as for me, and rejoice in all that God has done for each member corporately in Christ Jesus: As one company consisting of both Jew and Gentile believers, equal and united in Christ Jesus their Lord. I do not deny the grammar of the passage, just do not use it as you have done.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
 
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'In Whom also we have obtained an inheritance,
being predestinated according to the purpose of Him
Who worketh all things after the counsel of His Own will:
That we should be to the praise of His glory, who first trusted in Christ.
In Whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth,
the gospel of your salvation:
in Whom also after that ye believed,
ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Which is the earnest of our inheritance
until the redemption of the purchased possession,
unto the praise of His glory.'

(Eph 1:11-14)

Hello @Butch5,

This section is related to inheritance, this is why the differentiation had to be made, and necessitated the use of the words 'ye also'. Following which the word 'our' is again employed, encompassing both in the words, 'our inheritance': for both had been sealed with that holy Spirit of promise

Praise God!

In Christ Jesus
Chris
 
Hello @Butch5,

They will receive these blessings in resurrection glory, in Christ Jesus.. For unlike the promises given to the nation of Israel, which were to be received in basket and store, in the city and in the field (Deut. 28), these blessings in Ephesians 3 are all spiritual.
The problem is that Paul said they had already received them. If the Ephesians receive them at the Resurrection then it cannot be the Ephesians that Paul is speaking of in verses 3-12
Yes, in verse 13, Paul is talking to those who were now very much nigh unto God, in Christ Jesus, being now members of God's household. I do not dispute that. However I believe that in the writing of this epistle, Paul had both in mind, in Christ, addressed corporately as 'Saints' & 'Faithful' in verse 1:and so, right from the beginning the words spoken, were a description of what had been received by both Jew and Gentile among them, and verse 13 gives the 'how', and 'why' of what had already been accomplished, 'in' Christ Jesus, for the gentiles among them.
He did have bith in mind. His point is to show had God made one of the two. However, as has been pointed out verses 3-12 cannot refer to the Ephesians. If that were the case his argument fall apart and he'd have no reason take a distinction. The blessings in Christ do apply to the Ephesians, however, it's after they believed.
So now, I can ,as a member of the church of the one body of which Christ is the Head, read this letter as for me, and rejoice in all that God has done for each member corporately in Christ Jesus: As one company consisting of both Jew and Gentile believers, equal and united in Christ Jesus their Lord. I do not deny the grammar of the passage, just do not use it as you have done.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
Sure, that's the whole point of his argument. His point is to explain how that has happened. It started with the Jews, of which Christ was, and then flowed later to the Gentiles. Paul is explaining how God did it. He started with Abraham worked through Israel to Christ and then to the Gentiles.

That verses 3-12 are not speaking of the Gentiles doesn't mean the Gentiles don't apart of the blessings. Its just not the point Paul is making.
 
'Heavenly places' simply means the heavenly spheres: We are told that our Lord has ascended far above all heavens. See Eph. 1:20; 2:6; 3:10; 6:12. (Gr. epouranios. May the Lord be the arbiter in this as with all things concerning His word.
Except that it's grammar Chris. I didn't create the rules of grammar. However, if I'm to properly understand the text I must follow the rules of grammar. We all must. If we don't it's very likely we're going to be wrong. All of the events listed save except one are in the past tense. As I pointed out, heavenlies is neuter in gender. The word "places" is added by the translators. How exactly where the Ephesians blessed with all spiritual blessings in Heavenly places? Did the Ephesians go to Heaven? If the blessings are in Heavenly places how did the Ephesians get them?
Okayyyyyy.... If I may be allowed to clarify a grammatical minutia ??

"Heavenly" (G2032 ἐπουράνιος epouranios), while indeed an adjective, is an Substantive Adjective:

"Unlike most adjectives, which modify nouns, a substantive adjective is used to replace a noun. Often seen in ancient Greek and Latin,..​
A substantive adjective, however, does not modify a noun in a sentence, it replaces the noun. Therefore, a substantive adjective can only be successfully used when the noun in question is understood without being explicitly stated."​

I would highly recommend that y'all read the link... or you may find your own reference if need be. It was the first that popped up on my search, and it seems adequate to convey the concept.

So was "places," a good choice for the clarifier of the Substantive? Would "powers" be better? Maybe perhaps "status"?

I would suggest that 2:6 was the key verse used by the KJV for the selection of "places," used in all five verses, though the last gloss (in 6:12) had been changed to "high" (places). Likely because the translators didn't want to imply that Satan was in heaven.

And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:​
- Ephesians 2:6 KJV

We were "raised up" and "made to sit." Where? Well, one sits in a location, hence "places." But the operative word "sit" is G4776 συγκαθίζω sugkathizō and so I provide:

A LINK to the Liddell Scott Lexicon for G4776
A. make to sit together or in a body,​

It's likely, given Paul's use of his phrase "body of Christ," that he wasn't thinking of an actual "place," but more a kind of sympathetic magic or "resonance." We died with him, we were raised with him... etc. (I'm sure you know the numerous references where our status is compared, fused even, with that of Christ). Was this all literal or figurative?

While I'm sure the recipients of the epistle knew the object of the Substantive "heavenly," we do have the five verses listed by @complete, ALL of which have a definite article "the heavenlies" (curiously omitted by the KJV except for 1:20). In reading all these five, might one find a better clarifier for the Substantive in the prepositional phrase "εν τοις επουρανιοις" (in the heavenlies)?

I had offered status, as one might well think that "place" isn't literal to mean a location, but rather a position of status. Along with "status" we have other options like position as in rank or standing. (We share in Christ's heavenly standing....)

In the end, though, it may well be best to leave things alone and translate "εν τοις επουρανιοις" as "in the heavenly things" to satisfy the plural and neuter properties of the Substantive (adjective).

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings "εν τοις επουρανιοις" (in the heavenly things) in Christ:​
- Ephesians 1:3 KJV

Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand "εν τοις επουρανιοις" (in the heavenly things),​
- Ephesians 1:20 KJV

And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together "εν τοις επουρανιοις" (in the heavenly things) in Christ Jesus:​
- Ephesians 2:6 KJV

To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers "εν τοις επουρανιοις" (in the heavenly things) might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,​
- Ephesians 3:10 KJV

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness "εν τοις επουρανιοις" (in the heavenly things).​
- Ephesians 6:12 KJV

I hope it was worth my time.

Rhema
 
Okayyyyyy.... If I may be allowed to clarify a grammatical minutia ??

"Heavenly" (G2032 ἐπουράνιος epouranios), while indeed an adjective, is an Substantive Adjective:

"Unlike most adjectives, which modify nouns, a substantive adjective is used to replace a noun. Often seen in ancient Greek and Latin,..​
A substantive adjective, however, does not modify a noun in a sentence, it replaces the noun. Therefore, a substantive adjective can only be successfully used when the noun in question is understood without being explicitly stated."​

I would highly recommend that y'all read the link... or you may find your own reference if need be. It was the first that popped up on my search, and it seems adequate to convey the concept.

So was "places," a good choice for the clarifier of the Substantive? Would "powers" be better? Maybe perhaps "status"?

I would suggest that 2:6 was the key verse used by the KJV for the selection of "places," used in all five verses, though the last gloss (in 6:12) had been changed to "high" (places). Likely because the translators didn't want to imply that Satan was in heaven.

And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:​
- Ephesians 2:6 KJV

We were "raised up" and "made to sit." Where? Well, one sits in a location, hence "places." But the operative word "sit" is G4776 συγκαθίζω sugkathizō and so I provide:

A LINK to the Liddell Scott Lexicon for G4776
A. make to sit together or in a body,​

It's likely, given Paul's use of his phrase "body of Christ," that he wasn't thinking of an actual "place," but more a kind of sympathetic magic or "resonance." We died with him, we were raised with him... etc. (I'm sure you know the numerous references where our status is compared, fused even, with that of Christ). Was this all literal or figurative?

While I'm sure the recipients of the epistle knew the object of the Substantive "heavenly," we do have the five verses listed by @complete, ALL of which have a definite article "the heavenlies" (curiously omitted by the KJV except for 1:20). In reading all these five, might one find a better clarifier for the Substantive in the prepositional phrase "εν τοις επουρανιοις" (in the heavenlies)?

I had offered status, as one might well think that "place" isn't literal to mean a location, but rather a position of status. Along with "status" we have other options like position as in rank or standing. (We share in Christ's heavenly standing....)

In the end, though, it may well be best to leave things alone and translate "εν τοις επουρανιοις" as "in the heavenly things" to satisfy the plural and neuter properties of the Substantive (adjective).

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings "εν τοις επουρανιοις" (in the heavenly things) in Christ:​
- Ephesians 1:3 KJV

Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand "εν τοις επουρανιοις" (in the heavenly things),​
- Ephesians 1:20 KJV

And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together "εν τοις επουρανιοις" (in the heavenly things) in Christ Jesus:​
- Ephesians 2:6 KJV

To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers "εν τοις επουρανιοις" (in the heavenly things) might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,​
- Ephesians 3:10 KJV

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness "εν τοις επουρανιοις" (in the heavenly things).​
- Ephesians 6:12 KJV

I hope it was worth my time.

Rhema
It was. My point is that it's not a location. Every single one of us is on earth. Now Paul could have been using metaphor, but that goes to my point it's not literal.
 
But Paul was writing to believers.

No ???
Yes, he was. Consider I'm away from home and I write a letter. I address it to my family to my beloved family. However, in the letter I address my son John and tell him what I want him to do. In another part I address.my daughter and give her instructions. The letter is to the family, however, the instructions I gave to my son are not for my daughter. Again, the letter is addressed to all, however everything written in it doesn't apply to all.
 
Okayyyyyy.... If I may be allowed to clarify a grammatical minutia ??

"Heavenly" (G2032 ἐπουράνιος epouranios), while indeed an adjective, is an Substantive Adjective:

"Unlike most adjectives, which modify nouns, a substantive adjective is used to replace a noun. Often seen in ancient Greek and Latin,..​
A substantive adjective, however, does not modify a noun in a sentence, it replaces the noun. Therefore, a substantive adjective can only be successfully used when the noun in question is understood without being explicitly stated."​

I would highly recommend that y'all read the link... or you may find your own reference if need be. It was the first that popped up on my search, and it seems adequate to convey the concept.

So was "places," a good choice for the clarifier of the Substantive? Would "powers" be better? Maybe perhaps "status"?

I would suggest that 2:6 was the key verse used by the KJV for the selection of "places," used in all five verses, though the last gloss (in 6:12) had been changed to "high" (places). Likely because the translators didn't want to imply that Satan was in heaven.

And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:​
- Ephesians 2:6 KJV

We were "raised up" and "made to sit." Where? Well, one sits in a location, hence "places." But the operative word "sit" is G4776 συγκαθίζω sugkathizō and so I provide:

A LINK to the Liddell Scott Lexicon for G4776
A. make to sit together or in a body,​

It's likely, given Paul's use of his phrase "body of Christ," that he wasn't thinking of an actual "place," but more a kind of sympathetic magic or "resonance." We died with him, we were raised with him... etc. (I'm sure you know the numerous references where our status is compared, fused even, with that of Christ). Was this all literal or figurative?

While I'm sure the recipients of the epistle knew the object of the Substantive "heavenly," we do have the five verses listed by @complete, ALL of which have a definite article "the heavenlies" (curiously omitted by the KJV except for 1:20). In reading all these five, might one find a better clarifier for the Substantive in the prepositional phrase "εν τοις επουρανιοις" (in the heavenlies)?

I had offered status, as one might well think that "place" isn't literal to mean a location, but rather a position of status. Along with "status" we have other options like position as in rank or standing. (We share in Christ's heavenly standing....)

In the end, though, it may well be best to leave things alone and translate "εν τοις επουρανιοις" as "in the heavenly things" to satisfy the plural and neuter properties of the Substantive (adjective).

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings "εν τοις επουρανιοις" (in the heavenly things) in Christ:​
- Ephesians 1:3 KJV

Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand "εν τοις επουρανιοις" (in the heavenly things),​
- Ephesians 1:20 KJV

And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together "εν τοις επουρανιοις" (in the heavenly things) in Christ Jesus:​
- Ephesians 2:6 KJV

To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers "εν τοις επουρανιοις" (in the heavenly things) might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,​
- Ephesians 3:10 KJV

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness "εν τοις επουρανιοις" (in the heavenly things).​
- Ephesians 6:12 KJV

I hope it was worth my time.

Rhema
Hello @Rhema,

Yes, thank you for your input, it is appreciated. I have only now read it through. So, need to really consider what has been said by both yourself, and @Butch5. Hopefully I shall be able to respond in a manner worthy of both your efforts once I have done so.

In Christ Jesus
Chris
 
Both of these passages are addressed to Israel. Is every single Israelite going to be saved?
Not all of Isreal are born again Isreal .Just as all that claim to be Christian the new name the Father named are born again.
Can you make your case for Calvinism if you put all of those passages back into their context? It's not hard to support jut about anything if we rip Scripture from it's context. One could claim salvation is by works and grab this passage.
Salvation is of good works . . The better things that accompany born again salvation. Both in Philippians 2:13 the father empowering to hear his understnding of faith and empower dying mankind to do it according to the power of His Holy name.

He has a memory like a Elephant he knows when power goes out from his powerful name

Hebrew 6:9-10;But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.;For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.
 
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