Going from the Nursery to the Garden of Faith

[Charlie24]

May the Lord bless us with his wisdom and love,

The first thing that I noticed on this list that you have, is the confusion between what is dogma and what is tradition.

So let me list you off the dogma of the church, these are the things that are most important for every Catholic and to be Catholic is to believe in this.

Belief in the Holy Trinity, belief in the Incarnation- the Virgin birth of Jesus, the belief in the passion and death of Jesus, the belief in the resurrection of Jesus, the belief in the second coming of Jesus, the last judgment, the belief that the church has been given the keys beginning with Peter, and the belief in eternal life.

Your list is agreeable, my list is only part to the protest, there's much more.

As you can see, it's almost impossible for a Catholic and a Protestant to get along.

Especially when we get into the deeper things of Scripture.

 

[Bill]

Let's start with the top 10.

1) The RCC is the one true Church.
2) Infallibility of the RCC.
3) Only the RCC has the authority to interpret the Scripture.
4) The Pope is the head of the Church and has the authority of Christ.
5) RCC tradition equal to Scripture.
6) Forgiveness of sins and salvation is by faith + works.
7) Penance is necessary for salvation.
8) The merit of Mary and the saints can be applied to the Catholics.
9) Mary remained a virgin after conceiving Christ.
10 Purgatory.

These are doctrine of men practiced by Catholicism.

May the Lord bless us with his wisdom and love.

The first thing I noticed on this list, the confusion you have between what is dogma and what is tradition.

So let me list you off the dogma of the church, these are the things that are most important for every Catholic and to be Catholic is to believe in this.

We believe in the Holy Trinity, we believe in the Incarnation the birth of Jesus, we believe in the passion and death of Jesus, we believe in the resurrection of Jesus, we believe in the second coming of Jesus, we believe in the last judgment, we believe in the remission of sins, we believe in the church as being the one Church who is handed the keys through Peter and in succession every hope afterwards who was elected by Bishops and the Holy Spirit, we believe in the Eucharist the body and blood of Jesus, we believe in eternal life.

Everything else is a tradition that we follow including the understanding of purgatory and Mary.

The Traditions will not save you, but we hold true to our beliefs and our traditions as they help us grow in our faith.

Paul talks about keeping the Traditions alive, so we follow the words of Paul who is inspired by the Holy Spirit.

I want to point out a couple details one is that the Catholic church can follow its Heritage all the way back to Peter and paul. There are plenty of documents to show the proof of that.

Also the church as a whole did not experience the divisions that we see today up until the late 1400s. There are even manuscripts of the King James version in the late 1400s that include the Apocrypha written in it. It was somewhere in the 1500s that the apocryphal is removed from the King James version.

To note and to understand the Apocrypha it has the teaching of purgatory. I tell you this because it is an accepted teaching till the late 1400s ( and this is with the discernment of the Holy Spirit when the Bible was first compiled back in the 300s.)

Now even though the seven books were removed, you still cannot remove it completely from the scripture. You believe that there are only heaven and hell, but it does not put into account certain things stated in the scripture. As an example, Jesus makes the statement to the scribes and pharisees, the people of Sodom and Gomorrah will be judged less harshly than the people of this age. And there are other statements in Scripture that are not accounted for when it comes to heaven or hell because they are neither.

The understanding of Mary is purely tradition, and there are people who are witnesses of what happened with mary. John of the Gospel of john, being one of them. What he wrote of mary, was not added to the scripture.

And like those writings that were not necessary for one salvation nor part of the scripture text does not mean that they do not exist or their experiences were not true. As you may know the scriptures themselves were first compiled in the 300s by monks of the Catholic church.

There are plenty of Scrolls and writings that were not added to the bible. They don't have the importance the Bible holds, but if you wish to research these things you can. The Scrolls of Enoch and other Scrolls written by John including the Sunday sermons of many of the founding fathers up to the 300s or put into print at one time or another. What I found interesting were the Dead Sea Scrolls is they verified many of the books set in modern scripture.

The Catholic Church follows the teachings of Jesus when it comes to the eucharist. Jesus stated, this is my body, this is my blood and we believe that when a priest consecrates The Bread and Wine that it indeed becomes the body and blood of Jesus

No just like the Disciples of the time of jesus, only those Jesus hand-picked stayed with Jesus, after he taught this. Because Jesus said, are you going to leave too? To which they replied where will we go.

So obviously not everyone was meant to accept that teaching, because plainly, it is pretty rough for those who don't understand it and as Lentz said, we are all a bunch of cannibals.

Do I hold him at fault for this? Of course not. It's a tough teaching. But if we look at the Mana that came down from heaven for the israelites, and Paul talks about this Mana as the bread from heaven, is it any less cannibalism just because the symbology is different?

Because in the New Testament we are told that the Manna From Heaven is jesus, and you are more than willing to accept that as being Jesus versus the Eucharist as being jesus. You are more than willing to accept that those who walked in the desert with Moses ate the manna that was sent from heaven and drank the water that came from The Rock. And in both cases it was said to be Jesus. Why do you not look at the Israelites as cannibals? So you see you do believe that the Israelites received the Manna From Heaven and the water that was from jesus, but you cannot accept the Eucharist as the body and blood of Jesus.

I'm sorry for the long explanation, but your question required it. May God always be with you

 

[Bill]

Your list is agreeable, my list is only part to the protest, there's much more.

As you can see, it's almost impossible for a Catholic and a Protestant to get along.

Especially when we get into the deeper things of Scripture.

If you take time to read all of the longer version maybe it will help answer your questions

 

[Charlie24]

If you take time to read all of the longer version maybe it will help answer your questions

No Bill, I will never accept the RCC tradition because it's not found in Scripture. Your long explanation is filled with just that, tradition.

Of course you already know that if it's not found in Scripture we will call it out.

And when we do, you have nothing to offer but the traditions of men.

 

[Charlie24]

No Bill, I will never accept the RCC tradition because it's not found in Scripture. Your long explanation is filled with just that, tradition.

Of course you already know that if it's not found in Scripture we will call it out.

And when we do, you have nothing to offer but the traditions of men.

Hey, the RCC started out with "no salvation outside the Church" and now it's "one can be saved outside the Church, but they must become a member of the Church and be associated with the Church to remain saved."

This is not found in Scripture and will not be accepted by any Protestant. The RCC is filled with this type of nonsense and we reject it straight up.

 

[Bill]

No Bill, I will never accept the RCC tradition because it's not found in Scripture. Your long explanation is filled with just that, tradition.

Of course you already know that if it's not found in Scripture we will call it out.

And when we do, you have nothing to offer but the traditions of men.

Actually it's all over the place in Scripture, but it's all a matter of interpretation to I suppose. I mean if you're brought up in the system of believing that the Catholic church is wrong no matter what then that's all you're ever going to think. It's just as bad as the conflict between the Muslims and Jews. The Muslims are brought up with teachings from being a young child to all the way to their adulthood but the Jews are evil so how can you possibly feel bad about the Muslim people because this is the way they've always thought it's not like it's a new thing for them to think that the Jews are evil

The same thing is true with the Protestant churches I mean they're constantly being taught that we're evil or evil or evil I mean what are you supposed to think..

And of course I run in the same problem on the Catholic side where they think that the Protestants are all whacked and Evil you know and it's difficult to try to explain to people that you can't hold them that way you can't sit there and look at people who believe in Jesus as their lord and savior until them that they're evil that's just retarded

So I say the same thing to you you can't be judgmental like that. You know there's only one judge and that's God not us. And there is scripture that if you want to consider me a pagan for the way I think then the scripture backs me up as well for the pagans, because of Paul States it quite clearly that the pagans will be judged by their heart. So you really don't have anywhere to go with it either you can accept us as brothers and sisters or you can accept us as pagans either one you still have to accept us plain and simple. Otherwise you're no better than the Catholics that want to condemn you just because you're Protestant how stupid is that

 

[Charlie24]

Actually it's all over the place in Scripture, but it's all a matter of interpretation to I suppose. I mean if you're brought up in the system of believing that the Catholic church is wrong no matter what then that's all you're ever going to think. It's just as bad as the conflict between the Muslims and Jews. The Muslims are brought up with teachings from being a young child to all the way to their adulthood but the Jews are evil so how can you possibly feel bad about the Muslim people because this is the way they've always thought it's not like it's a new thing for them to think that the Jews are evil

The same thing is true with the Protestant churches I mean they're constantly being taught that we're evil or evil or evil I mean what are you supposed to think..

And of course I run in the same problem on the Catholic side where they think that the Protestants are all whacked and Evil you know and it's difficult to try to explain to people that you can't hold them that way you can't sit there and look at people who believe in Jesus as their lord and savior until them that they're evil that's just retarded

So I say the same thing to you you can't be judgmental like that. You know there's only one judge and that's God not us. And there is scripture that if you want to consider me a pagan for the way I think then the scripture backs me up as well for the pagans, because of Paul States it quite clearly that the pagans will be judged by their heart. So you really don't have anywhere to go with it either you can accept us as brothers and sisters or you can accept us as pagans either one you still have to accept us plain and simple. Otherwise you're no better than the Catholics that want to condemn you just because you're Protestant how stupid is that

No one has to tell me anything about Catholicism, I've seen for myself that most of it is not in Scripture. It's doctrines of men.

So now I'm a judge by pointing this out? That's what happens when there is no solid rebuttal.

 

[Bill]

Hey, the RCC started out with "no salvation outside the Church" and now it's "one can be saved outside the Church, but they must become a member of the Church and be associated with the Church to remain saved."

This is not found in Scripture and will not be accepted by any Protestant. The RCC is filled with this type of nonsense and we reject it straight up.

You would not accept what I know on this, but then again the Catholics would never accept what I know on this either so I don't feel bad.

But I did share with my parents while they were alive and I did share with my spiritual director would I know to be true. And he has no reason to doubt me as the Lord himself spoke to him on my behalf.

The priest who is my spiritual director couldn't understand why God would choose someone like me to do this work that I'm doing, to be One of the Two Witnesses that I claim to be.

I thought it was kind of funny how God responded to him. He told me the story about it, where he was walking along one time praying and just talking to God when the Lord interrupted him and his thoughts. The priest was thinking to himself why would God choose the guy like me, and no sooner did these words come through his mind that God spoke to the priest very loud and the priest could hear it with his ears. God said to him " what is it to you who I choose to do my work ".

Quite honestly when my spiritual director told me this I laughed, because he got two things with that, he didn't know how I heard God and if he ever doubted me he didn't pay after that. LOL

 

[Bill]

No one has to tell me anything about Catholicism, I've seen for myself that most of it is not in Scripture. It's doctrines of men.

So now I'm a judge by pointing this out? That's what happens when there is no solid rebuttal.

Really you can't find all the scripture of what I told you about the trinity, the virgin birth, the passion of Jesus and his death on the cross, the resurrection of jesus, the second coming of jesus, the Judgment of God, how the apostles would appoint new Apostles by voting and with the Holy Spirit, you mean to tell me that you missed all this in the scripture?

 

[Bill]

Really you can't find all the scripture of what I told you about the trinity, the virgin birth, the passion of Jesus and his death on the cross, the resurrection of jesus, the second coming of jesus, the Judgment of God, how the apostles would appoint new Apostles by voting and with the Holy Spirit, you mean to tell me that you missed all this in the scripture?

The scripture States quite clearly that if a person believes that Jesus is Lord from his heart and has accepted Jesus as Lord that he is indeed a child of God

 

[Bill]

No one has to tell me anything about Catholicism, I've seen for myself that most of it is not in Scripture. It's doctrines of men.

So now I'm a judge by pointing this out? That's what happens when there is no solid rebuttal.

But because I have RCC connected to my name you want to judge me all I can say is watch yourself, because you know what happens to people that make that kind of judgment. And I don't think it's worth going to hell over

 

[Dave M]

if you're brought up in the system of believing that the Catholic church is wrong no matter what then that's all you're ever going to think.

I was brought up in the Catholic church everyone I knew was Catholic all family was Catholic, once I started a personal relationship with Jesus he showed me the truth and the Holy spirit led me away into a real church. The Catholic church is the most dead church I have ever attenended. It had a strong hold on me as was very hard to brake away, thank you Jesus. Then after that the Holy Spirit convicted me to get rid of every Crucifixion in my house Jesus is alive not dead hanging on a cross, what terrible tradition having a hanging Crucifixion

 

[Charlie24]

You would not accept what I know on this, but then again the Catholics would never accept what I know on this either so I don't feel bad.

But I did share with my parents while they were alive and I did share with my spiritual director would I know to be true. And he has no reason to doubt me as the Lord himself spoke to him on my behalf.

The priest who is my spiritual director couldn't understand why God would choose someone like me to do this work that I'm doing, to be One of the Two Witnesses that I claim to be.

I thought it was kind of funny how God responded to him. He told me the story about it, where he was walking along one time praying and just talking to God when the Lord interrupted him and his thoughts. The priest was thinking to himself why would God choose the guy like me, and no sooner did these words come through his mind that God spoke to the priest very loud and the priest could hear it with his ears. God said to him " what is it to you who I choose to do my work ".

Quite honestly when my spiritual director told me this I laughed, because he got two things with that, he didn't know how I heard God and if he ever doubted me he didn't pay after that. LOL

Maybe you will be one of the 2 witnesses, Bill, but don't expect anyone to be congratulating you on it!

 

[Charlie24]

But because I have RCC connected to my name you want to judge me all I can say is watch yourself, because you know what happens to people that make that kind of judgment. And I don't think it's worth going to hell over

You're the one parading a bucket with holes in it. What do you expect?

 

[Bill]

Maybe you will be one of the 2 witnesses, Bill, but don't expect anyone to be congratulating you on it!

I don't tell people that because I'm trying to brag or anything else, in fact I would not even want to be here because of all the lack of faith that I find here. But it is God who demands me to be here, and it is he who has told me tell people

 

[Bill]

I was brought up in the Catholic church everyone I knew was Catholic all family was Catholic, once I started a personal relationship with Jesus he showed me the truth and the Holy spirit led me away into a real church. The Catholic church is the most dead church I have ever attenended. It had a strong hold on me as was very hard to brake away, thank you Jesus. Then after that the Holy Spirit convicted me to get rid of every Crucifixion in my house Jesus is alive not dead hanging on a cross, what terrible tradition having a hanging Crucifixion

As I stated in my book, not all can handle the teachings. But it does not mean that you're less of a person, and what's worse is that evidently you were in a church that was not so good.

I have seen the pluses and minuses in the Protestant churches as well. I've been in some Baptist churches that I can't see how they figure that they're actually Christian by their own behavior in their own words how they condemn the blacks, just because they're black. And this was in Kentucky. Not even the Deep South where I ran into the same thing.

Or what about the silly notion that you can't worship God on Saturday. What's wrong with that can't you worship God on every day of the week he is God he did create all days of the week. There are some churches that worship God on Saturday only and there's others that worship God on Sunday only and there's some crazy big to do over that and it's like I don't get it.

And why would a preacher hand out a beautiful homily and after hour of such a beautiful homily spend 30 minutes on condemning the Catholic Church I'm like really I don't think I've been to anywhere that condemns the other churches as much as some Protestant churches due to the Catholics.

Thank God I don't walk in that boat. I know that there are some that don't get it. And that's true on both sides of the coin. Thank God that God teaches me to love everyone and not just some people. That God teaches me to not look at the issues that the issues are for God to deal with and not for me. All I ever look at is where that person is at in their soul. And I see the condition of the soul and I talk to them about having to have more love in their heart have more forgiveness in their heart, maybe everyone should do that

 

[Bill]

You're the one parading a bucket with holes in it. What do you expect?

Well thank God I got a bucket with holes in it because somebody has to do the watering

 

[Bill]

I was brought up in the Catholic church everyone I knew was Catholic all family was Catholic, once I started a personal relationship with Jesus he showed me the truth and the Holy spirit led me away into a real church. The Catholic church is the most dead church I have ever attenended. It had a strong hold on me as was very hard to brake away, thank you Jesus. Then after that the Holy Spirit convicted me to get rid of every Crucifixion in my house Jesus is alive not dead hanging on a cross, what terrible tradition having a hanging Crucifixion

The cross is to remind us what he did for us, so many people don't even care about it anymore

 

[Charlie24]

I don't tell people that because I'm trying to brag or anything else, in fact I would not even want to be here because of all the lack of faith that I find here. But it is God who demands me to be here, and it is he who has told me tell people

You respect our faith in the Word of God as being the final Word, and we will respect you.

Otherwise, it's going to be a rocky road.

 

[Bill]

You respect our faith in the Word of God as being the final Word, and we will respect you.

Otherwise, it's going to be a rocky road.

God is the final word and that's correct but if you try to claim that the scripture is the end of it you have a long way to go LOL

As the Apostles said, the scripture is there to get your butt going but there was a whole lot more said than was ever written down