Grace vs the Law, debate #23,578

[Sue D.]

The Children of Israel are the 12 tribes. Judah being the Jewish line from which Jesus Christ came.

Well -- how about This -- Israel and the Church are completely separate. Salvation has been extended to the Gentiles -- salvation is the same for Everyone.

How could Moses have collected the creation narratives and historical writings from other sources other than God. For instance the first few chapters of Genesis "In the beginning God created" -- it was all created Before man / Adam and Eve / were created. Even the names of 4 rivers are given. All of that is given in chapter 2.

The only 'sources' existing at that time was the trinity / God the Father , Jesus Christ His Son, and the Holy Spirit.

I've thought that That was very incredible -- Moses was totally inspired to write about events when no human beings were even Here then.

 

[bibleguy]

The Children of Israel are the 12 tribes. Judah being the Jewish line from which Jesus Christ came.

Well -- how about This -- Israel and the Church are completely separate. Salvation has been extended to the Gentiles -- salvation is the same for Everyone.

How could Moses have collected the creation narratives and historical writings from other sources other than God. For instance the first few chapters of Genesis "In the beginning God created" -- it was all created Before man / Adam and Eve / were created. Even the names of 4 rivers are given. All of that is given in chapter 2.

The only 'sources' existing at that time was the trinity / God the Father , Jesus Christ His Son, and the Holy Spirit.

I've thought that That was very incredible -- Moses was totally inspired to write about events when no human beings were even Here then.

Hi there!

Yes, Israel includes the 12 tribes...but it also includes others grafted into Israel as well (Dt.29:10-13;Dt.31:12;Is.56:3-7;Eph.2:12;Rom.11).


"Judah being the JEwish line from which Jesus Christ came."

Very true!


" Israel and the Church are completely separate."

Actually, the word "church" is simply "ἐκκλησία" in Greek, and it routinely refers to ISRAEL in the LXX. Just look it up!

So, it is terribly unbiblical to distinguish "Israel" from "church". They are the SAME people.

Are you a New Covenant Christian? Surely you are! But then, you are an ISRAELITE (Jer. 31:31;Heb8:8). After all, the New Covenant is ONLY between God and ISRAEL.

Stephen agrees, using CHURCH to reference the Israelites at Sinai (Ac. 7:38).

Paul agrees, applying Hosea's prophecy for Israelites to GENTILES (Rom.9:24-26), again proving that Gentile believers are included as fellow ISRAELITES.


"Salvation has been extended to the Gentiles -- salvation is the same for Everyone."

yes!


"How could Moses have collected the creation narratives and historical writings from other sources other than God."

Same way the believers collected the New Testament documents which were likewise inspired by God, yet were written by men.


"For instance the first few chapters of Genesis "In the beginning God created" -- it was all created Before man / Adam and Eve / were created. Even the names of 4 rivers are given. All of that is given in chapter 2."

Ok...but that doesn't prove Moses wrote it. And that doesn't prove that Moses did not collect inspired written documents recording these facts. Bottom line: we're not really sure where Moses may have collected the writings.

And it doesn't really matter whether Moses wrote Genesis or not....because we already have other good reasons to believe Genesis is inspired by God, and that's what really matters.


"The only 'sources' existing at that time was the trinity / God the Father , Jesus Christ His Son, and the Holy Spirit."

Sure, only God existed before creation.

But I doubt Moses was the first guy to invent the act of writing. And Moses may well have collected the Genesis creation accounts and other historical information in Genesis from other written documents available to him.

After all, if Moses did not invent writing, then other people probably also wrote things down before Moses, and some of those pre-Moses writings could be inspired by God, and that's a reason why Moses may have included those writings to form Genesis.


"I've thought that That was very incredible -- Moses was totally inspired to write about events when no human beings were even Here then."

Indeed, the revelation in Genesis is pretty awesome! But that doesn't prove Moses was the author who originally penned the documents that may have been collected to form Genesis.

blessings!

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

Are you a New Covenant Christian? Surely you are! But then, you are an ISRAELITE (Jer. 31:31;Heb8:8). After all, the New Covenant is ONLY between God and ISRAEL.

Greetings,
There is no truth in that statement.

The new Covenant is Between God and Jesus. Man is the beneficiary if he accepts Jesus.

We are not nor become Israelite's.

Blessings

 

[bibleguy]

Greetings,
There is no truth in that statement.

The new Covenant is Between God and Jesus. Man is the beneficiary if he accepts Jesus.

We are not nor become Israelite's.

Blessings

Hi there!

Thanks for your opinion...but I choose to believe the Bible.

The Bible plainly states that the New Covenant is between GOD AND ISRAEL (Jer. 31:31;Heb.8:8).

Thus, only ISRAELITES partake in the New Covenant (according to Jer. 31:31; Heb.8:8).

Why would you oppose Scripture?

blessings...

 

[Sue D.]

To begin my response -- I am Not an Israelite -- I Am a Gentile. There Are Jewish people who have accepted Jesus Christ as their personal Savior just like I have.

The Church is made up of born-again believers all over the world. The Church - as a group of believers Will be raptured up and out of this world at some future time.

The Church is New Testament -- came to be upon the Resurrection of Jesus Christ. The coming of the Holy Spirit to indwell each believer.

I was just looking up Israel and the Church. There is Replacement theology // Separation Theology // Remnant Theology. I'm of the Separation group.

BTW -- I'm a very Bible person -

I was just looking up the Jeremiah and Hebrews passages. But there seems to be a bit of context missing. I'm thinking that the old Covenant of the Law was put in place to show 'us' that we could NOT keep / obey / the entire law 100 % of the time. If a person Could, that would mean that 'good works' could get a person into heaven. The law was given to us to show us that one final sacrifice was needed. The New Covenant of the cross was needed. Jesus Christ would be the Final Perfect Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.

If you're a Jewish person -- you Will see Scripture differently that I do.

The Most important aspect of God's Word is that He's provided a Savior The Savior for mankind because of our sinfulness. No matter Who we are. God has made Salvation available to All.

 

[bibleguy]

To begin my response -- I am Not an Israelite -- I Am a Gentile. There Are Jewish people who have accepted Jesus Christ as their personal Savior just like I have.

The Church is made up of born-again believers all over the world. The Church - as a group of believers Will be raptured up and out of this world at some future time.

The Church is New Testament -- came to be upon the Resurrection of Jesus Christ. The coming of the Holy Spirit to indwell each believer.

I was just looking up Israel and the Church. There is Replacement theology // Separation Theology // Remnant Theology. I'm of the Separation group.

BTW -- I'm a very Bible person -

I was just looking up the Jeremiah and Hebrews passages. But there seems to be a bit of context missing. I'm thinking that the old Covenant of the Law was put in place to show 'us' that we could NOT keep / obey / the entire law 100 % of the time. If a person Could, that would mean that 'good works' could get a person into heaven. The law was given to us to show us that one final sacrifice was needed. The New Covenant of the cross was needed. Jesus Christ would be the Final Perfect Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.

If you're a Jewish person -- you Will see Scripture differently that I do.

The Most important aspect of God's Word is that He's provided a Savior The Savior for mankind because of our sinfulness. No matter Who we are. God has made Salvation available to All.

Thank you for your response!

You wrote: "To begin my response -- I am Not an Israelite -- I Am a Gentile."

My response: Paul says that Gentiles ARE the Israelites about whom Hosea prophesied (Rom.9:24-26).

Again Paul says that believing Gentiles are NOT excluded from Israel (Eph.2:12).

So, according to Paul, you (as a believing Gentile) are included as a fellow ISRAELITE.


You wrote: "The Church is New Testament -- came to be upon the Resurrection of Jesus Christ."

My response: The Church (Gr. "ἐκκλησία") refers to ISRAEL dozens of times in the LXX.

Again, Stephen uses CHURCH ( Gr. "ἐκκλησία") to refer to ISRAEL (Ac. 7:38).

Again, Jesus refers to the church PRIOR to "the resurrection" (Mt. 16:18;18:17).

CONCLUSION: CHURCH refers to ISRAEL. CHURCH was not invented "upon the Resurrection of Jesus Christ".


You wrote: " I'm thinking that the old Covenant of the Law was put in place to show 'us' that we could NOT keep / obey / the entire law 100 % of the time. "

My response: Yes, we have all sinned. But we should STILL keep God's commands (1Cor.7:19;1Jn.5:3) which, of course, are contained in the written Torah of Moses (1Ki.2:3).


You wrote: "The New Covenant of the cross was needed. Jesus Christ would be the Final Perfect Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world."

My response: Very true! And the SAME TORAH ("תּוֹרָה", Jer. 31:33) passes directly into the New Covenant.

That's why we should STILL obey the Torah (Heb. 8;10;10:16).

That's why Paul STILL applies Dt.30:14 to you in Rom.10:8.

Indeed, faithful Torah-obedience IS the word of faith which Paul preached (Dt.30:14 cited in Rom.10:8).

Of course we don't obey Torah to be saved.

Rather, we obey Torah to be great in the forthcoming kingdom, just as Jesus encouraged (Mt.5:19).

We obey Torah as an expression of our love (Mt.22:37;Dt.6) for Him (1Jn.5:3;Dt.6:25).

We obey Torah because He told us to obey Torah (Mt:23-2,3,23).

We obey Torah because Jesus sends forth Torah-teachers to represent His Torah ministry (Mt.23:34).

We obey Torah because Jesus warns even religious people about the terrible consequences of Torah-disobedience (Mt.7:21-23), or even worse (Mt.13:41-42).

We obey Torah because we LIVE by Torah (Mt.4:4 citing Dt.8:3, referring to Torah).

Anyway, just wanted to place this perspective before you...

blessings....

 

[Sue D.]

Why keep on referring to God's Word / the Bible as the Torah.

I live by the Bible / God's Word. The NKJV particularly.

 

[bibleguy]

Why keep on referring to God's Word / the Bible as the Torah.

I live by the Bible / God's Word. The NKJV particularly.

Hi there!

The Bible includes Torah.

God's Word includes Torah.

Torah is part of the Bible.

Torah is God's word.

The Bible includes more than just Torah, of course, including the Nevi'im (Prophets) and Ketuvim (Writings) and Gospels and Epistles and Revelation.

So why all the talk about "Torah"?

Because most of us Christians have no clue that we should be growing in faithful obedience to the Torah (i.e., the written Torah of Moses, including Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy).

We Christians have drifted a long way from the Torah-obedient faith of the 1st-century disciples.

It's time for us Christians to return to truly authentic Torah-obedient faith, as required by Jesus and the Apostles.

Agreed?

 

[Sue D.]

Hi 'bibleguy'

Isn't it true that the Torah is important because it gives the history of the Jewish people. Their origin. And they contain the Levitical laws for most every aspect of their lives.

You use the phrase "we Christians"

'We Christians' are Supposed to be growing in the grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ , aren't we?!

Yes, we Do need to be getting back to Biblical morality/ ethics. Godliness.

So -- how would You explain to 'me' how to become a 'Christian'. I like to use the term "born-again' believer.

God Does want a personal relationship with each of us. That is only possible by accepting Jesus Christ as our personal Lord and Savior --- the shed blood of Jesus Christ on the cross.

 

[bibleguy]

Hi 'bibleguy'

Isn't it true that the Torah is important because it gives the history of the Jewish people. Their origin. And they contain the Levitical laws for most every aspect of their lives.

You use the phrase "we Christians"

'We Christians' are Supposed to be growing in the grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ , aren't we?!

Yes, we Do need to be getting back to Biblical morality/ ethics. Godliness.

So -- how would You explain to 'me' how to become a 'Christian'. I like to use the term "born-again' believer.

God Does want a personal relationship with each of us. That is only possible by accepting Jesus Christ as our personal Lord and Savior --- the shed blood of Jesus Christ on the cross.

Hi again!

Yes, Torah contains history...but it also contains God's commands (1Ki.2:3) which Paul (1Cor.7:19) and John (1Jn.5:3) apply to us Christians.

Yes, we grow in the grace and knowledge of Jesus (who teaches us to obey Torah: Mt. 5:19;23:2-3,23,34).

A "Christian" is a disciple of Jesus. Disciples are people who grow in faithful obedience to Jesus' teachings. Choose to follow Jesus...and then you're His disciple! Come follow Him!

"God Does want a personal relationship with each of us. That is only possible by accepting Jesus Christ as our personal Lord and Savior --- the shed blood of Jesus Christ on the cross."

Lots of good points...thanks.

 

[Sue D.]

'bibleguy' -- How does a person become a disciple of Christ. How does a person Become a son/ daughter of God. Isn't there a moment in a person's life when they Do make a personal commitment To follow Jesus Christ?

 

[bibleguy]

'bibleguy' -- How does a person become a disciple of Christ. How does a person Become a son/ daughter of God. Isn't there a moment in a person's life when they Do make a personal commitment To follow Jesus Christ?

I remember when I made that commitment....

So, "how" does a person choose to follow Christ?

Well, you choose to take up your cross, deny yourself, and follow Him (Mk.8:34;Lk.14:27).

blessings...

 

[Sue D.]

Was your accepting Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior - the starting point? And at That point, you became a disciple of Christ.

Ephesians 2: 8-9 "For by grace you are saved through faith, and that , not of ourselves , it is the gift of God. Not of works lest any man should boast."

 

[bibleguy]

Was your accepting Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior - the starting point? And at That point, you became a disciple of Christ.

Ephesians 2: 8-9 "For by grace you are saved through faith, and that , not of ourselves , it is the gift of God. Not of works lest any man should boast."

As far as I can remember, I was always His disciple (Eph.1:4)....but the moment of public confession was a nice way to solidify my established position.

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

Hi there!

Thanks for your opinion...but I choose to believe the Bible.

The Bible plainly states that the New Covenant is between GOD AND ISRAEL (Jer. 31:31;Heb.8:8).

Thus, only ISRAELITES partake in the New Covenant (according to Jer. 31:31; Heb.8:8).

Why would you oppose Scripture?

blessings...

Greetings,
Actually I am not opposing scripture.

Scrip

Hi there!

Thanks for your opinion...but I choose to believe the Bible.

The Bible plainly states that the New Covenant is between GOD AND ISRAEL (Jer. 31:31;Heb.8:8).

Thus, only ISRAELITES partake in the New Covenant (according to Jer. 31:31; Heb.8:8).

Why would you oppose Scripture?

blessings...

Greetings,

First of All if God made the new covenant only between Himself and the Israelites then none of us could be saved.

But scripture says ( John 3:16)
for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.

If you would keep reading in Hebrews through chapter 9 you would have also understood. ..11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; 12 neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. 16 For where a testamentis, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Through out the New Testament you will see where Jesus is the Mediator of this Covenant.
The old was between man and God and man could NOT keep his part.
So stop judging others by your own understanding.
Blessings in Christ

 

[Laeomis]

Thanks. Matthew 5:19 is the verse I refer to to do the law.

One thing the Nicolaitans were known to do besides wife swinging was to say they could do whatever sin they wanted because they were always saved for confessing Christ. Christ said he hated their doctrine in Revelation 2.

 

[Sue D.]

Laeomis -- Matthew 5:19 -- this verse precedes the section about the Ten Commandments and expounds on them in a much more personal way.

Revelation 2 Does mention the Nicolaitans in a negative way but doesn't go into any detail.

What He apparently 'hates' are those who say that by confessing Christ they could do anything they wanted and not worry about their salvation. The piece that is Missing is that there Will be evidence in a person's life of their salvation. The people who say they can do as they please Anyway -- obviously have not accepted Christ as their personal Savior or they'd know that isn't the case at all. There Is Christian liberty -- 'we' Can do pretty much anything, BUT we won't WANT to. People who've been part of a partying group and are led to the Lord do loose that desire. They 'loose' that set of friends and make New ones who have the new more - Christ-like interests.

And that's one reason why 'praying a prayer' Isn't always accepting Jesus Christ as their personal Savior. Same thing with 'signing a card'. Someone needs to take time with the 'card signer' or the 'praying ' person. Talk to the person -- do they understand what they're doing. Why they're doing it.

 

[B-A-C]

The Bible plainly states that the New Covenant is between GOD AND ISRAEL (Jer. 31:31;Heb.8:8).

Thus, only ISRAELITES partake in the New Covenant (according to Jer. 31:31; Heb.8:8).

I wonder why you would add the word "only" to these two verses. None of my translations have that word in either of those verses.

This is like people who add the word "alone" to Eph 2:8-9;

1 Cor 11:25; In the same way He took the cup also after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."
2 Cor 3:6; who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
2 Cor 3:14; But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ.

Corinthians was written to Gentiles. Why would 2nd Corinthians mentions a new covenant if it was "only" for the Jews (which neither verse you gave, says "only".

 

[bibleguy]

Greetings,
Actually I am not opposing scripture.

Scrip

Greetings,

First of All if God made the new covenant only between Himself and the Israelites then none of us could be saved.

But scripture says ( John 3:16)
for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.

If you would keep reading in Hebrews through chapter 9 you would have also understood. ..11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; 12 neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. 16 For where a testamentis, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Through out the New Testament you will see where Jesus is the Mediator of this Covenant.
The old was between man and God and man could NOT keep his part.
So stop judging others by your own understanding.
Blessings in Christ

Howdy!

You wrote: "First of All if God made the new covenant only between Himself and the Israelites then none of us could be saved."

My response: Rather, the fact that we are saved PROVES that we are Israelites!

After all, the New Covenant is ONLY between God and ISRAEL (Jer. 31:31; Heb. 8:8).

That's why Paul says that Gentiles are the ISRAELITES about whom Hosea prophesied (Rom. 9:24-26).

That's why Paul says that Gentiles are NOT excluded from Israel (Eph.2:12).

Conclusion: Believing Gentiles are included as fellow ISRAELITES! We are GRAFTED INTO ISRAEL so as to partake in the covenants.

Nothing in the Scriptures you quoted states that it is false that the New Covenant is ONLY between God and Israel.


You wrote: "So stop judging others by your own understanding."

My response: Then you are guilty of what you accuse me!

Moreover, we are REQUIRED to judge/correct/rebuke others (Lk.17:3;2Ti.3:16;1Cor.5:12;Mt.7:20;2Th.3:14).

Thus, I use Scripture to rebuke you so that you be trained to obey ALL Scripture (thus you should obey Torah, 2Ti.3:16).


Why would you oppose the Scriptures which plainly state that the New Covenant is between God and ISRAEL? (Jer. 31:31;Heb.8:8).

blessings...

 

[bibleguy]

I wonder why you would add the word "only" to these two verses. None of my translations have that word in either of those verses.

This is like people who add the word "alone" to Eph 2:8-9;

1 Cor 11:25; In the same way He took the cup also after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."
2 Cor 3:6; who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
2 Cor 3:14; But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ.

Corinthians was written to Gentiles. Why would 2nd Corinthians mentions a new covenant if it was "only" for the Jews (which neither verse you gave, says "only".

Hi there!

I wonder why would you assume ISRAEL really means something other than ISRAEL?

If God declares that he makes a covenant between Himself and ISRAEL (Jer.31:31;Heb.8:8), then it is between Himself and ISRAEL (not Iran or Russia or Zimbabwe or USA).

Agreed?

You dare to alter the Scriptures? Yikes! That's a DANGEROUS game, dude.

Again, Paul affirms the New Covenant (1Cor.11) which is a covenant between God and ISRAEL (Jer.31:31;Heb.8:8). Thus, the Gentile Corinthian audience is INCLUDED
as Israelite participants in the New Covenant between God and ISRAEL.

You wrote: "Corinthians was written to Gentiles. Why would 2nd Corinthians mentions a new covenant if it was "only" for the Jews (which neither verse you gave, says "only"."

My response: Who said it was "only for the Jews"? I never said that!

I said ISRAEL, not JEWS.

Stop assuming that JEWS = ISRAEL.

ISRAEL is MUCH GREATER than "the Jews".

Israel includes believing GENTILES (thus Paul identifies believing Gentiles as the ISRAELITES about whom Hosea prophesied, Rom. 9:24-26).

Again, Paul says that believing Gentiles are NOT excluded from Israel (Eph.2:12), thus believing Gentiles are INCLUDED as ISRAELITES so as to partake in the Israelite covenants (Eph.2:12).

Believing Gentiles are fellow HEIRS (Eph.3:6) of the one Israelite body which will INHERIT the promised land (Gal.3:29) when we return to the land and again obey 100% of all Torah (Dt.30:1-8),
in fulfillment of the NEW and ABRAHAMIC and DAVIDIC covenants.

CONCLUSION: Gentiles are GRAFTED INTO ISRAEL as fellow Israelite participants in the covenants between God and ISRAEL.


Scripture says ISRAEL (Jer.31:31;Heb.8:8). Why would you suppose that God actually meant something else?

Let's stop changing Scripture to accommodate bogus theology.

blessings...