Heaven and Hell

[B-A-C]

The Bible says that Heaven and Earth are created places.

Gen 1:1; In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

... and in fact, they will both be re-created at some point in the future.

Rev 21:1; Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea.

Now most Christians believe that the Earth was created, but it seems that many suppose heaven always existed. Where did God live before heaven was created?

Now I can't answer that question, and I think any answer here would speculation. God is a Spirit, and I suppose a Spirit doesn't need a place to sleep. In any case, this isn't
really an important issue, and no one's salvation depends on knowing the answer to that question.

But OK, that's heaven and Earth... what about hell and the lake of Fire? Have you ever stopped to consider when they were created? Why they were created? Who they were created for?

Matt 25:41; "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
2Pet 2:4; For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment;
Jude 1:6; And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day,

Matt 25:41; says that "the eternal fire ( presumably the Lake of Fire ) which has been prepared for the devil and his angels".
Wow, have you ever stopped to consider that angels that were once good angels, became bad angels and rebelled against God. Even Satan was once a good angel.
But back to the point. Hell and the Lake of Fire were created at some point in time. Again, I can't say exactly when, and no one else can either. I re-iterate this isn't a salvation issue by any means.
So then why talk about it? Because I think it might reveal part of the nature of God to us.

There is a preterist Calvinist point of view, that says God knows everything, and he knew before He created the angels and created mankind, that they would fall and rebell.
Some say that He created hell and the Lake of Fire in the same six days that He created the heaven(s) and the Earth. Perhaps this is true, I don't know. But it's also equally possible
that hell and the lake of Fire were created at the moment Satan fell, how long was it after that that some of the other angels rebelled as well? I don't know, but we know from the Bible
that some of them did. How long was Satan already fallen before he tempted Adam and Eve? Again I don't know. It could have been hundreds of thousands of years.
Or, it could have been day. Only God knows I suppose. But either way. At some point in time God created hell and the Lake of Fire. Perhaps the Bible says that these places were
created for Satan and his angels, simply because they were the first ones to fall. What if mankind would have fallen first? Then perhaps the Bible would say they were created
for men. But even though they were created "for" angels, the Bible says some men will go there.

The Lake of Fire, like every other place is a created place. The Bible doesn't specifically say that God created it, but yet it does exist, it is a real place mentioned over 15 times by Jesus.
In fact over 20 times in the New Testament. The Lake of Fire is mentioned five times ( all in Revelation ). So if it's a created place, who could have created it other than God?
If God made it, He must have planned to use it. In fact the Bible tells us He will indeed use it. The fallen angels, Satan, the Beast, the false prophets, and all the people who take
the mark of the beast will be thrown into the Lake of Fire. The Bible says if anyone's name is not in the Book of Life, they are cast into the Lake of Fire.

The Bible says that God wants everyone to be saved. He isn't willing that any should ( go to hell or the Lake of Fire ). But people reject God/Jesus by their own free will.
The price of this is eternal damnation and hell fire. The point is, God created hell and the Lake of Fire, and one day many people will end up there.

So we can say God is good, God is love, and He is those things... but He is also the God who will have many people cast into the Lake of Fire.

 

[NoHype]

The Bible says that Heaven and Earth are created places.

Gen 1:1; In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

... and in fact, they will both be re-created at some point in the future.

Rev 21:1; Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea.

Now most Christians believe that the Earth was created, but it seems that many suppose heaven always existed. Where did God live before heaven was created?

Now I can't answer that question, and I think any answer here would speculation. God is a Spirit, and I suppose a Spirit doesn't need a place to sleep. In any case, this isn't
really an important issue, and no one's salvation depends on knowing the answer to that question.

But anyway, let's let God's Word answer that question, because He did tell us in His Word, that is, for those who believe Him.

Hebrews 11 is known as the Faith Chapter. It's about taking truths on Faith, even those things we cannot see.

Heb 11:3
3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
KJV

The first part of that verse is about taking it on Faith that the creation was by the word of God.

But that next part in red is about material things that we see were not made of those things that appear. In other words, material matter did not create material matter.

This is actually a basic law of physics; it's the idea that material matter can neither be created nor destroyed, but only change its state (like solid, liquid, gas, vapor). And this has been proven by scientific experiment. (true science will always agree with the science of God's creation). God can destroy matter, because He created it. But matter cannot destroy itself, nor can man.

Going Deeper:
What that reveals is this: if material matter didn't originate from matter, then it had to have been created from something else that does not involve matter.

Per Apostle John in John 4, he said that "God is a Spirit". And by the many Bible examples in God's Word about the place called Heaven, where His Abode is today, we also know that does not mean the sky atmosphere around the earth which is also called a heaven, simply because the sky is actually made up of 'material matter', but simply in a vapor and gaseous form.

That reveals that God's Abode in Heaven cannot be said to involve our earthly material dimension, and that includes the whole universe too, since it also is made up of material matter.

This isn't speculation either, it is what The Word of God is revealing. In 1 Corinthians 15, Apostle Paul defined two different bodily image states, one he called the "image of the earthy" which is about this earthly dimension we live in. And the other he called the "image of the heavenly", which is about the type image of the angels in Heaven, pointing to the Heavenly dimension of Spirit.

Even Lord Jesus said in John 3, 'that which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit', thus revealing the 2 separate dimensions of existence written in God's Word. 2 Corinthians 5 is yet another example, as is Ecclesiastes 12:5-7 also.

So what created material matter of this world? God did, in that 'other' dimension of Spirit. Just the fact that material matter cannot create itself, nor by man, reveals the existence of another dimension of existence that is not of material matter. That other dimension of existence, Heaven, where God's Place is, is of Spirit, and not matter. Thus per Romans 1 God's existence as a Spirit is separate from His creation.

And per Isaiah 45:18, God said He created this earth to be inhabited, i.e., to be lived upon. And upon this earth used to be where He dwelt, and will dwell again. We know this because of His Garden of Eden represents His Abode in the Heavenly, and per Genesis 2, upon earth is where His Garden of Eden once was at the time of Adam and Eve. And per the end of Revelation He has promised to return to this earth, to live with us. That reveals that His Spirit, literally, as a Person, can live upon this earth He created. And the "express image" of His Person, Hebrews 1 tells us is His Son Jesus Christ.

 

[TheRootOfDavid]

God wants everyone to be saved. He isn't willing that any should ( go to hell or the Lake of Fire ). But people reject God/Jesus by their own free will.

Meaning no disrespect, but I am wondering, to what degree, do you actually believe this,
and if you do believe it, why do you believe it? And if I presented undeniable proof, that
proves otherwise, would you change what you believe?

 

[NoHype]

But OK, that's heaven and Earth... what about hell and the lake of Fire? Have you ever stopped to consider when they were created? Why they were created? Who they were created for?

Matt 25:41; "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
2Pet 2:4; For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment;
Jude 1:6; And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day,

Matt 25:41; says that "the eternal fire ( presumably the Lake of Fire ) which has been prepared for the devil and his angels".
Wow, have you ever stopped to consider that angels that were once good angels, became bad angels and rebelled against God. Even Satan was once a good angel.
But back to the point. Hell and the Lake of Fire were created at some point in time. Again, I can't say exactly when, and no one else can either. I re-iterate this isn't a salvation issue by any means.
So then why talk about it? Because I think it might reveal part of the nature of God to us.

There is a preterist Calvinist point of view, that says God knows everything, and he knew before He created the angels and created mankind, that they would fall and rebell.
Some say that He created hell and the Lake of Fire in the same six days that He created the heaven(s) and the Earth. Perhaps this is true, I don't know. But it's also equally possible
that hell and the lake of Fire were created at the moment Satan fell, how long was it after that that some of the other angels rebelled as well? I don't know, but we know from the Bible
that some of them did. How long was Satan already fallen before he tempted Adam and Eve? Again I don't know. It could have been hundreds of thousands of years.
Or, it could have been day. Only God knows I suppose. But either way. At some point in time God created hell and the Lake of Fire. Perhaps the Bible says that these places were
created for Satan and his angels, simply because they were the first ones to fall. What if mankind would have fallen first? Then perhaps the Bible would say they were created
for men. But even though they were created "for" angels, the Bible says some men will go there.

The Lake of Fire, like every other place is a created place. The Bible doesn't specifically say that God created it, but yet it does exist, it is a real place mentioned over 15 times by Jesus.
In fact over 20 times in the New Testament. The Lake of Fire is mentioned five times ( all in Revelation ). So if it's a created place, who could have created it other than God?
If God made it, He must have planned to use it. In fact the Bible tells us He will indeed use it. The fallen angels, Satan, the Beast, the false prophets, and all the people who take
the mark of the beast will be thrown into the Lake of Fire. The Bible says if anyone's name is not in the Book of Life, they are cast into the Lake of Fire.

The Bible says that God wants everyone to be saved. He isn't willing that any should ( go to hell or the Lake of Fire ). But people reject God/Jesus by their own free will.
The price of this is eternal damnation and hell fire. The point is, God created hell and the Lake of Fire, and one day many people will end up there.

So we can say God is good, God is love, and He is those things... but He is also the God who will have many people cast into the Lake of Fire.

In Isaiah 30:31-33 God is comparing "the Assyrian" as a type for Satan, and speaks of how Tophet has been ordained of old, for the king (Satan) it has been prepared. Tophet is a place in the valley of Hinnom, a perpetual burning pit for garbage outside the walls of Jerusalem. In The New Testament where the word for "hell" in the Greek text is 'geena', it is pointing to the valley of Hinnom put for the "lake of fire". With that we can only speculate like you say, but it's pointing to a place on this earth. And Ezekiel 28:18 does say that God will bring a fire within him turning him into ashes upon the earth, in sight of all those who see him. So maybe the "lake of fire" will literally be on earth after... Christ's future return? Kind of what the Scripture is pointing to.

I'm a believer of what's called the Gap Theory of God's creation. So I'm what is called an 'old creationist', not a 'new earth creationist' which believes the earth is only about 6,000 years old.

The way I interpret Genesis 1, is with the very first verse, Genesis 1:1, sometime long, long ago, God originally made His creation, and it was a Perfect creation, and a time when He created Satan perfect in his ways, with Satan highly exalted in God's Kingdom then, ON EARTH, with no rebellion yet. The majority of today's waters upon the earth were up in the sky atmosphere forming a complete canopy covering around the earth, and upon the earth was a literal Paradise over all... of it, even at the Poles. (fossils of tropical animal and plant life have been discovered at both the earth's poles, as also in the desert regions).

There were 'nations' upon the earth back then when Satan was exalted and served God, as the Revelation 12:3-4 and Ezekiel 31 Scriptures directly point to. The beast kingdom system mentioned at the time when the "red dragon" (Satan) drew a third of the stars (angels) to earth with him was made up of "ten horns, seven heads, and seven crowns". The number of 'crowns' is different, and because it is linked with the time when Satan drew a third of the stars in rebellion, that puts that beast system of Rev.12 back to the time of his rebellion of old. The beast system of Rev.13:1, which is for the end of this present world, is to have "ten crowns", revealing the different times for the two beast systems.

Then Satan rebelled against God in that old world, coveting God's Throne which was Satan's job as a covering cherub to guard. The result of that rebellion, Satan's fall, and God ending that old world, is what the Genesis 1:2 verse is about. In the Hebrew verse 2 actually means the earth became a waste and an undistinguishable ruin (Hebrew tohu va bou points to some that was originally in a good state, going bad or to nothing).

Past Genesis 1:2 is actually a re-creation for this present 2nd earth world age. There is no verse past Gen.1:1 that declares creation of the earth, for it is only assumed by tradition. The waters overspread on the earth at verse 2 were upon the already created earth at Gen.1:1. From verses 6-10 God is moving a portion of those waters back up in the sky where they originally were, and then moving the waters overspread upon the earth around until the dry appears, not created, but appears from underneath those waters.

Romans 8:18-25 and Jeremiah 4:23-28 are linked speaking of the destruction of that old world when Satan rebelled, with God having put today's creation state into 'vanity', in 'bondage of corruption'. In Jer.4, God said for this reason the earth would mourn, and the heavens above be black.

What does it mean when the sky atmosphere around our earth, with its clouds turning dark? It means a storm is coming, those clouds full of water. Because when God put the sky around the earth back when moving those waters on the earth, he left holes in the atmosphere. And that creates today's weather for this 2nd world earth age. The sun beads down upon the surface of the earth, waters on the evaporate and go up and meet with cold air falling, and it creates swirling motion of winds and storms. In Revelation 21, in the world to come, we are told there will be 'no more sea.' Where are all the seas and oceans upon today's earth going to go in that future time?

 

[NoHype]

Meaning no disrespect, but I am wondering, to what degree, do you actually believe this,
and if you do believe it, why do you believe it? And if I presented undeniable proof, that
proves otherwise, would you change what you believe?

No sense in debating that because Apostle Peter declared it...

2 Peter 3:9
9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
KJV

So the real question ought to be, why... don't you believe it as written??

Satan and his angels that rebelled with him, are already judged and sentenced to perish in the future "lake of fire". So that part is already settled.

But NO flesh-born man has been judged to perish yet today, for that judgment doesn't happen until after Christ's future "thousand years" reign of Revelation 20.

And then those born in the flesh that go into that future "lake of fire", will most likely choose to perish, because just as their attitude today is with wanting to be their own God, when they finally understand that the only way they can have eternal life is through Faith on The Father and His Son Jesus Christ, then they will likely just choose to perish. It won't be an angry God just pitching them in that fire, they will choose... to go, out of rebellion with Satan. They are like the biker movie, "What are you rebelling against son?", and the biker responds, "Wadda ya got?" Real smart huh?

 

[TheRootOfDavid]

No sense in debating that because Apostle Peter declared it...

Meaning no disrespect, but I am wondering, to what degree, do you actually believe this,
and if you do believe it, why do you believe it? And if I presented undeniable proof, that
proves otherwise, would you change what you believe?

 

[UltimatePerfectPower]

When a disciple/apostle says something that might contradict the spirit of the law, I revert to Christs teachings. Hell cannot be eternal (always existed) because it came to play with the Greco-Roman era - Jews had no hell just Shiloh, a place where all souls went. As for heaven, Revelation 20 explains that after both resurrections, the worth rule with Christ on Earth, not in a heaven. Just my thoughts.

 

[joestue]

But NO flesh-born man has been judged to perish yet today, for that judgment doesn't happen until after Christ's future "thousand years" reign of Revelation 20.

the judgement can't happen until the last person born, dies or is raptured at the end of the 1000 years.

one person in the movie, after death, reported in her nde, she saw the effects of her words and actions, 30 people removed from her.
another person, the asian guy who tried to kill himself, seemed to very somberly say: there is a judgement.

basically your actions will affect you.. 2000 years after you're dead.. in a sense there is no statute of limitations.

 

[NoHype]

Meaning no disrespect, but I am wondering, to what degree, do you actually believe this,
and if you do believe it, why do you believe it? And if I presented undeniable proof, that
proves otherwise, would you change what you believe?

I asked you why YOU... do not believe what Peter said there in 2 Peter 3:9, I've already well shown that I believe what Peter said, but now you are trying to be even more... sly to hide that you do NOT believe Peter.

So WHY don't you believe that 2 Peter 3:9 verse as written?

 

[NoHype]

the judgement can't happen until the last person born, dies or is raptured at the end of the 1000 years.

Where in the world are you getting that idea from? That is not from Bible Scripture.

I find that many brethren often do not really understand that use of the word 'judgment', nor the idea of it in God's Word. There are many times of 'judgment' written in God's Word, and they do not always use that word.

The day of Christ's return when He will separate His "sheep" apart from the "goats" is a judgement, but not a judgment into the "lake of fire", because only the Great White Throne Judgment time which is after... Jesus' future "thousand years" reign is when that GWT judgment happens, and is the only judgment that actually casts the wicked into the future "lake of fire". (See Revelation 20:11-15).

And if you're referring to some Catholic idea like a "hall of souls" where souls are like in storage in Heaven waiting to be born in the flesh, that idea actually is nowhere written in God's Word. It is a doctrine of men.

Furthermore, the only 'rapture' written of by Christ in God's Word is the "caught up" event of 1 Thessalonians 4:17 that will only happen on the LAST DAY of this PRESENT WORLD which is the day that Jesus RETURNS, and that time is immediately prior to His future "thousand years" reign with His elect saints.

So it looks like you need more Bible study.

 

[joestue]

So it looks like you need more Bible study.

Nah, you need to spend some time thinking about externalities.

God cant judge you until your sins have reached their end. Which does not end when you are forgiven, but rather until the last person affected by your sin, either forgives you, or holds it against you.. they may be born 1000 years from now. The bible doesn't explicitly say the reason why, it only says the judgement and the books are opened after the 1000 years. Im just giving you one reason why.

Christians usually try to weasel their way around Jesus statement of "every idle word you say" only applies to non believers.

Consider the bible translators who prefer tradition over what the greek actually says.. i do not want to be in their shoes.

 

[NoHype]

Nah, you need to spend some time thinking about externalities.

By "externalities" you really mean 'doctrines of men', like those from Catholic traditions which do not originate in God's Word.

Like the Scripture shows in Revelation 20, that Great White Throne judgment is the only... time of judgment of flesh-born cast into that "lake of fire" after Christ's 1,000 years reign that begins at His future return. So all your speculation is just opinion you have devised on your own, or is from those who don't know their Bible. That is why I recommend you need more Bible study.

 

[joestue]

By "externalities" you really mean 'doctrines of men', like those from Catholic traditions which do not originate in God's Word.

Like the Scripture shows in Revelation 20, that Great White Throne judgment is the only... time of judgment of flesh-born cast into that "lake of fire" after Christ's 1,000 years reign that begins at His future return. So all your speculation is just opinion you have devised on your own, or is from those who don't know their Bible. That is why I recommend you need more Bible study.

You better go delete much of your own posts by your own non speculation standard.

Pointing out that God cannot judge a man until all his sins are accounted for is not speculation. Its a simple, fact.

 

[NoHype]

You better go delete much of your own posts by your own non speculation standard.

Pointing out that God cannot judge a man until all his sins are accounted for is not speculation. Its a simple, fact.

I'm trying to get you to grasp that NO flesh born man is judged to perish UNTIL the Judgment of the Great Day, meaning AFTER Christ's future 1,000 years reign with His elect per Revelation 20.

That means even Judas Iscariot has not been judged and sentenced to perish in the future "lake of fire" yet.

The ONLY ones already 'judged and sentenced to PERISH' are Satan and his angels. No one born in the flesh has had that judgment to perish yet.

 

[Samson2020]

Ephesians 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of His will, according to HIS GOOD PLEASURE which HE HATH PURPOSED IN HIMSELF:

MY first take is who or what could/can override the will of God? Now if your answer is nothing, thats a good start, now ask yourself has God revealed
HIS PLAN to you? Do you know the mystery of HIS WILL?

10-That in the dispensation of the fullness of TIMES(death periods) He might gather together in one(spirit) all things in Christ, both which are in heaven
and which are on earth; even in Him:

Do these verses lend the possibility that our choices can override Gods choice of us from before creation?

11- In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being PREDESTINATED according to the purpose of HIM WHO WORKETH all things after the
COUNSEL OF HIS OWN WILL.
12 That we should be to the praise of HIS glory who FIRST TRUSTED IN CHRIST.

Why are we the first to trust in Christ? Because it is Gods will? YES
Why then do others not yet trust in Christ? Same reason it is Gods will for now! ROMANS 9:15-19
Will they some day trust in Christ? YES! As EPHESIANS 10 tells us He will gather ALL things together IN CHRIST when the TIMES have been completed.

Your literal lake of fire is actually the crucible of earth that creates the sons of God. Those necessary ingredients are the carnal mind as your enemy,
along with the beast (government), the false prophet (religions), death,(fear of that keeps you in sin), hell(the grave). All these are reassembled in the
second death to produce the second group of Gods sons. Just as all are present here now to produce the first fruits.

"Our GOD is a consuming fire" To what end? That your dross will be consumed by His righteousness through the experiences He puts you through.

To what end? That you would be a son that He is proud of, even though He is the one who produced His character in you and for you so that His glory
can reside in you, and you would possess all the fullness of God. Thus a true son of the living God. Eph 3:19

Now if He can do this for me, why not for all? After all it is He who does whatever He wants among the world of men!

I would call that GOOD NEWS (Gospel) for ALL.

 

[A servant of the Kings]

I am not sure I understand the beginning of your text,

But I can tell you this that I have been taught by God, that God already Loves, He is Love.

And If we know Him even if ever so little we also Love Him.

Those who does not know Him will not Love Him, and thus will not want to choose Him.

And since God will not force himself on anybody, He want a mutually loving relationship.

The more we know Him, the more we will love Him.

I will testify to you that I have been baptised in the high heavens in His white fire.

We are to be replaced by His light that is the white light.

When we know Him better and better we will know it is not a sacrifice to be replaced by Gods light

It is a blessing beyond cmpare, cause what we loose is darkness that is hurting us, leaving us in pain, death, and emptiness

And what we gain is eternal life in the Lord, in total Love, bliss and meaningfullness.

 

[B-A-C]

We have a number of Universalists, Antimonianists, and Anihhilationists, here on TalkJesus.

Universalists believe everyone is going to heaven whether they know it or not. They believe you have no say in the matter. It doesn't matter if you believe in Jesus or not.
It doesn't even matter if you're Satan worshiper, you're still going to heaven.

Antimonianists, these people believe that as long as you believe in Jesus, anything goes. Really the only difference between these and the the Universalists, is that you have to at least believe in Jesus.
But they believe that you believe in Jesus, you can keep on sinning all you want, nothing is off limits. Antimonian = anti-law. I can continue to do anything, molest children, be homosexual, have
affairs with married women, ... anything goes as long as I believe in Jesus.

We also have a few Anihhilationists here... there are of course varying debates on what constitutes if someone is saved or not... those debates continue almost daily.
These people believe that not everyone is saved. But the good news for these people is, there is no eternal punishment for rejecting Jesus and continuing in sin.
If you're saved, you go to heaven or wherever the saints go in the next life. If you're not saved, you may face hell temporarily, but you don't go to the lake of fire, you are
annihilated. After a short punishment, you simply cease to exist. No spirit, no body, no spirit, no anything... just poof you're gone.

We also have the classic Calvinst, non-free will predestinationists. God decides who is going to be saved, and who isn't. You have no choice in this either.
They would say God is in control of everything. In fact He has total control over you. So that even when you sin, it's God causing you to sin.

We also get Jehovah's Witnesses, Latter Day saints ( Mormon's ), and Atheists, from to time.

Sometimes I'm not sure why these people are allowed to post here on TalkJesus, but I suppose it has something to do with free speech.
I have posted over 10,000 messages here since 2008. It was happening before then... and it still continues.

 

[Samson2020]

Those who does not know Him will not Love Him, and thus will not want to choose Him.

Does a man choose God? Or does God draw, drag, pull the man to Jesus who then reveals the Father in His own good time? Matt 11:27

And since God will not force himself on anybody

Does He not force Himself on us because He knows that we need what He is and He is withholding Himself? And why?

When we know Him better and better we will know it is not a sacrifice to be replaced by Gods light

And what we gain is eternal life in the Lord, in total Love, bliss and meaningfullness.

And how do we ever come to this understanding?
Romans 9:16 So then it is NOT of him who wills, nor of him that runs, but OF GOD that shows mercy. 18- therefore He hath mercy on whom He wills,
and whom He wills He hardens.

 

[Samson2020]

Sometimes I'm not sure why these people are allowed to post here on TalkJesus, but I suppose it has something to do with free speech.
I have posted over 10,000 messages here since 2008. It was happening before then... and it still continues

God is in control and a man gets saved when God says so.

1 Co 4:7 For what gives you the right to make such a judgment? What do you have that God hasn't given you? And if everything you have is from God,
why boast as though it were not a GIFT.
This includes your salvation and all the wisdom you possess.

And why try to limit any gifting God intends to do in the future. He is fulfilling His own plan, not ours. Eph 1:9

And I for one would appreciate that you not use the slanderous ideas of child molesters, murderers, liars, cheats, adulterers etc.... being identified
as OK by Universalists.
Your maturity is a process, just like theirs will be. It will have a beginning and an end just like yours. And until shown mercy they will remain hardened.
You were a sinner and still are, just like everybody else alive in the flesh. Sin is sin period. You were saved by the Grace of God. No more no less.
Rom 9;16-18

And ALL sin must be washed in the blood of the lamb to make one worthy of their inheritance.

My two cents is to figure out that our righteousness is worth less than zero to God, for it is His righteousness that has been imputed to you
as the GIFT that makes you an inheritor.
Matt 6:33 "Seek ye first the Kingdom of God and HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS"...............then shall all theses things be added unto you.

And again, if it is a GIFT why do you boast as though you earned it?????
Self righteousness is the biggest blinder of the Christian I know of. You will never see past your own salvation as long as you hold to that belief.
Rev 3:14-18

Paul wrote letters to the Romans, Ephesians, Corinthians, and to Timothy expressing the same view to ALL of them, even telling Timothy to
COMMAND AND TEACH THAT GOD IS THE SAVIOR OF ALL MEN.
Now why would the Holy Ghost have Paul write such to 3 different groups, and Timothy unless it was so???? 1 Tim 4:9-11

Sin will reign unto death BUT grace will reign unto eternal life, and grace will overcome sin. Rom 5:20-21

 

[A servant of the Kings]

Does a man choose God? Or does God draw, drag, pull the man to Jesus who then reveals the Father in His own good time? Matt 11:27


Does He not force Himself on us because He knows that we need what He is and He is withholding Himself? And why?


And how do we ever come to this understanding?
Romans 9:16 So then it is NOT of him who wills, nor of him that runs, but OF GOD that shows mercy. 18- therefore He hath mercy on whom He wills,
and whom He wills He hardens.

It is like a loving relationship between humans, it is not only one that chooses the other, but 2 who chooses each other. For example we choose God when opting to get baptized, and when repenting. Cause what we are repenting from is satans dirt, and what we are choosing to approach is the One who is clean:

1 John 3:3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as Christ is pure.


The reason it is not about effort, is a person may make a tremendous effort in the wrong direction, being tricked by satan, walking his ways instead of the way that Jesus is that leads to Father.

It is also not enough to want it. Jesus does not say that is the way to start. He says Love The Lord our God with all your heart mind and soul, that is a way to start.

Me I cannot tell you what makes God give us mercy.

But I do know it pleases Him greatly when we repent/ clean, cause we will show him that we consider satan to be trash, the dirt is from satan.

Another way to please Him is to testify to others about Him, what He has done for us, and not be ashamed of Him, or too scared of what other humans may think.

And it will please Him when we do not think we know better than Him, when we know He is the one Who is Good, and the one who is wise.

We need His help for example with repenting, cause even if a person wants to repent from all sin, he will have forgotten some, and overlooked others, and thus need the help of God.

It seems to me from experience that God is sooner to help those who tried, those who showed Him they want to arrive at purity and Love, and leave satan behind.

Jesus also says it here in the bible: 7Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and the door will be opened to you. 8For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.…