How not to talk about assurance of salvation

[Hekuran]

I can't see that there's a great room for differing interpretations of this verse. It makes the same point very simply three times.
There are plenty of threads that rehearse the debate, and none of them seem to get very far. My intuition is that the reason that there is so much interest in the topic is because many of us feel distress when friends leave the faith. And my second observation is that the debate does not do much to help with this deeper issue.

 

[Travis]

So, are you saying a person can't be saved during an altar call?

No RJ, I never once said that.

Thank you for the questions,

Travis

 

[RJ]

I can't see that there's a great room for differing interpretations of this verse. It makes the same point very simply three times.
There are plenty of threads that rehearse the debate, and none of them seem to get very far. My intuition is that the reason that there is so much interest in the topic is because many of us feel distress when friends leave the faith. And my second observation is that the debate does not do much to help with this deeper issue.

Though you refused to give me yours of 1 John 2:19, I agree, there is no differing interpretations because there is only one: those who left the faith, were in fact, never saved in the first place.

 

[RJ]

No RJ, I never once said that.

Thank you for the questions,

Travis

That's a relief. I still don't see, what seemed apparent to me, your disdain for Billy Graham and his use of altar calls to bring people to Christ?

 

[Listening]

If you still want him/ seek him, he wont turn you away?
I think that is a good way to see the topic?

And assurence comes by faith which comes by reading and hearing his word

 

[Listening]

The thought just occured, what about the rich young ruler?
Jesus loved him but he would not do what jesus said he needed to do to be perfect.
I wonder what happened to him after jesus died and rose again?.
Did he hear of what happend?
Do you think he had any chance of receiving jesus as saviour instead of just a good teacher,
What must i do To inherit eternal life was his question.
And jesus asked him abou the law,
Isnt that the story?

It begs the question
Did the rich young ruler ever hear jesus speak like he speaks in johns gospel?
Which was about belief rather than doing things to be perfect.
What is the work of God?
To believe in the one he sent.

It seems jesus talked to people on their levels of understanding?
At certain times?
After all he did not choose to say just believe i am the son of God and you shall be saved at the a time to that man.

 

[Listening]

Amazing Gods love!
There was salvation waiting for that rich young ruler!

 

[JohnP]

If you still want him/ seek him, he wont turn you away?

That's the simple truth right there! No way to argue that . . .

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

I can't see that there's a great room for differing interpretations of this verse. It makes the same point very simply three times.
There are plenty of threads that rehearse the debate, and none of them seem to get very far. My intuition is that the reason that there is so much interest in the topic is because many of us feel distress when friends leave the faith. And my second observation is that the debate does not do much to help with this deeper issue.

The deeper issue is which ones you decide to stop praying and believing God for.
I don't know anyone forgotten by God because I keep thanking God and reminding him that the good work he began in each of us he is faithful to complete.

Romans 11:32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
Many who seem to go out come back.
Those who's righteousness is by human willpower are the ones in true danger because they don't understand their need for mercy.
When someone screws up or walks away it may actually be an answer to prayer.
We don't always know what it takes to bring someone into true communion with God.
So I'm not certain at what point to give up.

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings,

So I'm not certain at what point to give up.

NEVER!

Could it be that the tender care of the LORD keeps us while we get or find our feet and we are kept in, hedged in for our needed protection, and this without either our say or complaint, during which time we surely taste His goodness and Truth, but we must decide to reject, to despise, the world and the flesh and choose such?

Bless you ....><>

 

[B-A-C]

Those who's righteousness is by human willpower are the ones in true danger because they don't understand their need for mercy.

There is of course, a middle ground.
I don't believe we can achieve righteousness without Jesus, we neither have the capacity or desire to do it without Jesus/Holy Spirit's help.
On the other hand, we still have the free will to reject this help. So from that perspective it takes effort on our part.
There are some who say Jesus wants all the credit 100%, and if we say we are responsible for even 1% then we are taking away from His glory.
I disagree. None of us will be saved without Jesus. From that perspective He gets credit for 100% of the people who are saved.
But if we say Jesus is in total control of our salvation and actions, then we also have to say He is controlling the sinful actions that we still do sometimes.
I don't think He wants credit for that.
If we take the classic passages about the tree that was given 3 years to start bearing fruit (but if it doesn't cut it down).
Or the 10 virgins (5 of which were foolish and ran out of oil)
Or the servant (who was kicked out of the masters house) who buried his talents in the sand while the other two went out and invested their talents.
Or those who strive to enter the narrow gate but are unable, they thought that simply by eating in his presence and listening to His teaching they would be saved.
Or even those who claimed to do miracles and cast out demons in His name but were unable to enter the kingdom of God.
Who failed in all the instances above? Was it Jesus? Or was it humans who made bad choices and thought Jesus was going to take care of it all 100% ?
We are responsible for our actions. We are responsible for our sin. Yes there is mercy and grace. Yes there is forgiveness (for those who repent).
But should we sin more just so grace can increase? The Bible mentions those who turn the grace of Christ into a license to sin.
Grace is there for when we make mistakes, grace is not there so we can do and live however we want.

Believing in Jesus means believing in His words, His actions, His teachings, and following them.
When Jesus says "Well done, good and faithful servant" is He talking to Himself? ..or Us?

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

Believing in Jesus means believing in His words, His actions, His teachings, and following them.
When Jesus says "Well done, good and faithful servant" is He talking to Himself? ..or Us?

He's talking to himself in us.
Only God is good.

I get the impression very little of self can get to such a place.
This is what makes me confident in prayer for others,that no "self" will glory before God.
We should always be reminding God of himself in others.

There is a world of difference between willpower and the power of God's will.

 

[RJ]

I don't believe we can achieve righteousness without Jesus,

Amen to that! In fact, it is not our righteousness that God credits to us, it is Christ's righteousness through us!

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

Amen to that! In fact, it is not our righteousness that God credits to us, it is Christ's righteousness through us!

Amen
Before I was a believer I had willpower and didn't really have much of a problem with sin that anyone (including myself) could see.
I was that way because I believed good things happen to good people and Jesus did not fit that notion very well.
I knew what Jesus said,stuff like if someone takes your stuff don't ask for it back,forgive your enemies,be generous to your enemies.
Bless your enemies and pray for them.If someone asks you to walk a mile with them go two,give to whoever asks you.
If they ask for your cloak give them your tunic also.Love believes all things and keeps no record of wrong.
Love always gives the benefit of any doubt and that will get you used and stepped on by everyone around you who is not love.

I never saw anyone do those things even though they claim to be followers of Christ.
When someone tried to get me saved I would ask them for a hundred dollars because I figured a real christian would obey jesus and give me two hundred.

Those things can only be done through the power of God lifting us out of egocentric ways of thinking.

 

[Travis]

Believing in Jesus means believing in His words, His actions, His teachings, and following them.
When Jesus says "Well done, good and faithful servant" is He talking to Himself? ..or Us?

There's a lot of meaning packed into that one word: Believe.

 

[Hekuran]

Lots of interesting comments. But no-one has responded to the main idea in the opening post yet.

 

[B-A-C]

There are two prominent ideas that are very unhelpful:

The first is the evangelistic approach that makes an offer along the lines "If you pray this prayer and mean it with all your heart, you are assured of eternal salvation". That's poor theology and disastrous discipleship. I wonder if it has more to do with notching up converts than building the kingdom of God.
Or it's possible to fall off the other side of the fence and live in perpetual doubt of our salvation. That can lead us in the direction of legalism, an unhealthy tendency to show our worth to God.

There you go.
I think there are as many opinions about this as there people on TJ. It seems like a simple question, and yet very few agree.

1. You don't even have to believe in Jesus, you are saved anyway.
2. You have to believe in Jesus, but that's it. No obedience or repentance or life change is required.
3. You have to believe in Jesus and repent of your sins.
4. You don't have to believe in Jesus, you just have to be a good person because God loves us all no matter what.

For me assurance of salvation is simply that God/Jesus does his part to save us.
But we still have to do our part as well.

On one hand, like you said... we can place too much value on our deeds and think our salvation depends on them.
On the other hands, we can place no value at all on our deeds and think our salvation doesn't depend on them.
There are some who are in perpetual doubt about their salvation. This isn't really healthy.
On the other hand, there are many who are "assured" of their salvation to the point that they can live however they want to.

I think we can be assured that as long as we are walking in Christ, he will save us.
Even the phrase "walking in Christ" means different things to different people.

Unless YOUR righteousness exceeds that of the Pharisee you will in no wise enter the kingdom of God.

Yes Jesus is righteous enough for everyone, but everyone isn't going to heaven, not even everyone
who thinks they are a Christian.

 

[Travis]

Unless YOUR righteousness exceeds that of the Pharisee you will in no wise enter the kingdom of God.

When do you plan on entering into the kingdom of God?

 

[RJ]

Lots of interesting comments. But no-one has responded to the main idea in the opening post yet.

I in fact gave a very factual and accurate answer, in that: "Jesus said he would never lose whoever God gives him!"
If Jesus has vowed not to lose a born again Christian, that pretty much settles any issue with eternal assurance and there is actually no debate, period!

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

Yes Jesus is righteous enough for everyone, but everyone isn't going to heaven, not even everyone
who thinks they are a Christian.

I thought we were talking about eternal life not what happens after you die.
Eternal life is far,far more than what happens after death and getting to heaven is only a part of life in Christ.
How about salvation from a wasted existence on this planet?
If it's all about going to heaven then why don't we kill people as soon as they believe because they might walk away in the future?

Some Christians seem to lend the idea that God is just itching to pull the trigger and torture people.
If you can't be sure you are accepted then you are not accepted,because you are the judge.

Romans 11:32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
He is not itching to burn because he got us into this to show his mercy.
John 5:22 Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son,
The Father judges no one,he stands waiting to show mercy,why do we assume he will fail and lack his child when there is no lack in God at all.

John 8:15 Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.
So the Father is not judging us and Jesus is not judging us so who is the judge?

Well ,you are and your judgement can't be overturned if you refuse mercy.
You can't give anything if you are the one who needs mercy so your works are not an issue at all.
Believing that were already given mercy is required to receive the benefits of that mercy.