If God knew that Satan would rebel...

[Chad]

If God knew that Satan would rebel and Adam and Eve would sin, why did He create them?

Question: "If God knew that Satan would rebel and Adam and Eve would sin, why did He create them?"

Answer: This is a two-part question. The first part is “Did God know Satan would rebel and Adam and Eve would sin?” The answer lies in what the Bible teaches about God’s knowledge. We know from Scripture that God is omniscient, which literally means “all-knowing.” Job 37:16; Psalm 139:2-4, 147:5; Proverbs 5:21; Isaiah 46:9-10; and 1 John 3:19-20 leave no doubt that God’s knowledge is infinite and that He knows everything that has happened in the past, is happening now, and will happen in the future.

Looking at some of the superlatives in these verses—“perfect in knowledge”; “his understanding has no limit”; “he knows everything”—it is clear that God’s knowledge is not merely greater than our own, but it is infinitely greater. He knows all things in totality. Isaiah 46:10 declares He not only knows everything, but He controls everything as well. How else could He “make known” to us what would happen in the future and state unequivocally that His plans will come to pass? So, did God know that Adam and Eve were going to sin? Did He know Lucifer would rebel against Him and become Satan? Yes! Absolutely! Were they out of His control at any time? Absolutely not. If God’s knowledge is not perfect, then there is a deficiency in His nature. Any deficiency in God’s nature means He cannot be God, for God’s very essence requires the perfection of all His attributes. Therefore, the answer to the first question must, by necessity, be “yes.”

Moving on to the second part of the question, “Why did God create Satan and Adam and Eve knowing ahead of time they were going to sin?” This question is a little trickier because we are asking a “why” question to which the Bible does not usually provide comprehensive answers. Despite that, we should be able to come to a limited understanding if we examine some biblical passages. To begin, we have already seen that God is omniscient and nothing can happen outside of His knowledge. So, if God knew that Satan would rebel and fall from heaven and that Adam and Eve would sin, yet He created them anyway, it must mean that the fall of mankind was part of God’s sovereign plan from the beginning. No other answer makes sense given what we have been saying thus far.

Now we must be careful to note that Adam and Eve falling into sin does not mean that God is the author of sin, nor that he tempted Adam and Eve to sin (James 1:13). The fall serves the purpose of God’s overall plan for creation and mankind. This, again, must be the case, or else the fall of mankind would never have happened.

If we consider what some theologians call the "meta-narrative" (or overarching story line) of Scripture, we see that biblical history can be roughly divided into three main sections: 1) paradise (Genesis 1–2); 2) paradise lost (Genesis 3 – Revelation 20); and 3) paradise regained (Revelation 21–22). By far the largest part of the narrative is devoted to moving from paradise lost to paradise regained. At the center of this meta-narrative is the cross. The cross was planned from the very beginning (Acts 2:23). It was foreknown and foreordained that Christ would go to the cross and give His life as a ransom for many (Matthew 20:28)—those chosen by God’s foreknowledge and predestined to be His people (Ephesians 1:4-5).

Reading Scripture very carefully and taking what has been said so far, we are led to the following conclusions:

1. The rebellion of Satan and the fall of mankind were foreknown and foreordained by God.
2. Those who would become the people of God, the elect, were foreknown and foreordained by God.
3. The crucifixion of Christ, as atonement for God’s people, was foreknown and foreordained by God.

So, we are left with the following questions: Why create mankind with the knowledge of the fall? Why create mankind knowing that only some would be "saved?" Why send Jesus knowingly to die for a people that knowingly fell into sin? From man’s perspective, it does not make sense. If the meta-narrative moves from paradise, to paradise lost, to paradise regained, why not just go straight to paradise regained and avoid the whole paradise lost interlude?

The only conclusion we can come to, in view of the above assertions, is that God’s purpose was to create a world in which His glory could be manifest in all its fullness. The glory of God is the overarching goal of creation. In fact, it is the overarching goal of everything He does. The universe was created to display God’s glory (Psalm 19:1), and the wrath of God is revealed against those who fail to glorify God (Romans 1:23). Our sin causes us to fall short of God’s glory (Romans 3:23), and in the new heaven and new earth, the glory of God is what will provide light (Revelation 21:23). The glory of God is manifest when His attributes are on perfect display, and the story of redemption is part of that.

The best place to see this in Scripture is Romans 9:19-24. Wrath and mercy display the riches of God’s glory, and you cannot get either without the fall of mankind. Therefore, all of these actions—fall, election, redemption, atonement—serve the purpose of glorifying God. When man fell into sin, God’s mercy was immediately displayed in not killing him on the spot. God’s patience and forbearance were also on display as mankind fell deeper into sin prior to the flood. God’s justice and wrath were on display as He executed judgment during the flood, and God’s mercy and grace were demonstrated as He saved Noah and his family. God’s wrath and justice will be revealed in the future when He deals with Satan once and for all (Revelation 20:7-10).

The ultimate exhibition of God’s glory was at the cross where His wrath, justice, and mercy met. The righteous judgment of all sin was executed at the cross, and God’s grace was on display in pouring His wrath for sin on His Son, Jesus, instead of on us. God’s love and grace are on display in those whom He has saved (John 3:16; Ephesians 2:8-9). In the end, God will be glorified as His chosen people worship Him for all eternity with the angels, and the wicked will also glorify God as His justice and righteousness will finally be vindicated by the eternal punishment of all unrepentant sinners (Philippians 2:11). None of this could have come to pass without the rebellion of Satan and the fall of Adam and Eve.

The classic objection to this position is that God’s foreknowledge and foreordination of the fall damages man’s freedom. In other words, if God created mankind with full knowledge of the impending fall into sin, how can man be responsible for his sin? The best answer to this question can be found in the Westminster Confession of Faith chapter III:

“God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established” (WFC, III.1)

What this is saying is that God ordains future events in such a way that our freedom and the working of secondary causes (e.g., laws of nature) are preserved. Theologians call this “concurrence.” God’s sovereign will flows concurrently with our free choices in such a way that our free choices always result in the carrying out of God’s will (by “free choices” we mean that our choices are not coerced by outside influences).

To summarize, God knew that Satan would rebel and that Adam and Eve would sin in the Garden of Eden. With that knowledge, God still created Lucifer and Adam and Eve because creating them and ordaining the fall was part of His sovereign plan to manifest His glory in all its fullness. Even though the fall was foreknown and foreordained, our freedom in making choices is not violated because our free choices are the means by which God’s will is carried out.

article: Bible Questions Answered

 

[Brad Huber]

Some great assumptions that follow logic and what we know from scripture. I agree that God knew in advance of the rebellion of both much of angels and all of mankind. But logic cannot fully explain something that is (due to a complete narrative of the Lord's reasoning, which He failed to give us for some reason) a matter of faith. We are creatures of faith, hope, and love. These three things are greater than any reasoning we can muster and the sole reason for our existance, the nuturing and building of said attritbutes. That being said, the foreknowledge of the end of things and the final attainment of both humans and angels were known by the Lord in advance of us ever being created. Part of that creation had to involve free choice, for those three things cannot be attained unless we have that free choice. So to create these beings to increase the creations that exude said qualities is "worth" (IMO and my faith) the temporary suffering from dealing with fallen creation, both the wheat and the chaff will be seperated and the wheat will exude and increase that Faith, Hope, and Love which is (IMO) the Lord's known end of things. I do not say this to teach, but to merely agree with you that Yes, God did know of our eventual rebellion, and Yes, that doesnt make Him the author of sin, but instead the author of creatures capable of good and evil with the intent to welcome the good into the eternal kingdom and to seperate the evil or destroy it as He see's fit! I am no theologian, but I am indeed a man of faith.... isnt that what we all should attain to?

 

[JehovahDaughter]

, God did know of our eventual rebellion, and Yes, that doesnt make Him the author of sin, but instead the author of creatures capable of good and evil with the intent to welcome the good into the eternal kingdom and to seperate the evil or destroy it as He see's fit! I am no theologian, but I am indeed a man of faith.... isnt that what we all should attain to?

I like this

 

[AbbysAunt]

I read this with great interest and liked what was said alot. Brother Chad you did a great job explaining and I know it came from our Lord Himself through you to us. I agree with everything that was said or mentioned.

God didn't tempt Adam and Eve to sin, If we read in Genesis3:1 we see that it was satan in the form of a serpant, now that said Eve knew full well what was told to her and Adam about the fruit and not to eat it, but she chose of her own free will to eat of the fruit and Adam then chose of his own free will to eat of it when he was offered it from Eve...it's funny to me how see even from the beginning of time that man/woman does not want to take responsibility for his or her own actions. Eve blamed the serpent and Adam blamed Eve. God knew what would happen and when it would happen so they were not hiding anything from Him that He did not already know. Oh, how many times before being saved I tried to hide from God all my guilt, shame and sins, but only to find in the end He knew all along and all I needed to do was go to Him and say " I've sinned im so ashamed and im so sorry Lord please forgive me." Why do we do this is it because we are so afraid or is it more that we are ashamed and don't want God to know what we did even though He already knows?

God knows everything there is nothing hidden from Him to whom we must give account...but He will never force us to do anything. He wants us to come willingly and do the right thing of our own free will. What Good what it do for Him to force anyone to do what He wants, or to Love Him...it would cause resentment and hatred because true love is not pushed on or forced upon someone. Real love is a given choice and that's what God has done...by giving us free will He has given us freedom of choice and then it is up to us what we choose. Alot of people wonder why bad things happen or why God let it happen...the thing is people choose to do wrong or right and when something happens that doesn't mean God didn't stop it what it means is this with all choices there are concequences whether they are good or bad. So, with making choices come a great responsibility...we should first pray seeking God in any decision we are going to make and take time to reflect and think on what the concequences could end up being.

Thank you Chad for sharing this and Brad Huber I agree with you we should attain to be men and women of faith and do our best to honor and praise our Lord and to share His love with others...once again this is a choice one that I hope and encourage everyone to choose.

God's blessings be upon you and fill you
AA

 

[Michelle71]

The way I view this, is God is after companions. He set things into motion, and let creation learn on a learning curve. The kingdom of Satan has a use in that it is somewhat of a scaffolding of a building. It does not look nice, but is necessary for the building to be complete.

In other words, God is out to be glorified, yes, but He is out for companions for His own heart.


A Hope Feb 25, 2010
We have a hope and a future that our Creator has promised us through His only begotten Son, Christ Jesus.


Eph 3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
Eph 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
Eph 3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
Eph 3:4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
Eph 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
Eph 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:



What is this promise that Paul spoke of? What is the mystery that was revealed to him that he wished the church in Ephesus to understand? It was the truth of becoming fellowheirs with Christ.


Eph 3:7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
Eph 3:8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
Eph 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
Eph 3:11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
Eph 3:12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.



This mystery is felt now in this life. As we access the reigning power available over the principalities and powers in heavenly places (this means all principalities and powers of the air) through our faith in our Lord and Savior Christ Jesus we are proving that we are joint-heirs with him. Our rule starts in this life as we understand our position in Christ. The power of God is accessed and granted only when we are working and occupied by the things of His Kingdom.


Eph 3:13 Wherefore I desire that ye faint not at my tribulations for you, which is your glory.
Eph 3:14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
Eph 3:15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,
Eph 3:16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
Eph 3:17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
Eph 3:18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
Eph 3:19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
Eph 3:20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,
Eph 3:21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.



As joint-heirs of Jesus, we are then called to walk through tribulations for the sake of others that are also called to become joint-heirs. We do not have a promise of riches in this life, but riches in the life to come as we also lay our lives down for our fellowmen that they also may be redeemed and be able to access the throne of grace through the one who knew no sin became as sin for our sakes.


Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.



Here again is the truth that we become join-heirs as we suffer as He suffered. As He is glorified, so are we. But the glorification is not in ourselves, for there is nothing we can do to make our self-righteousness anything other than filthy rags in the sight of the Father.


Rom 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Rom 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
Rom 8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?



So many liken these verses with the rewards and treasures of this life. If these verses are taken to mean that he will give freely all good things in this life, then the first verse cannot be understood correctly. As we suffer the tribulations of our own lifetimes, as we face the fiery trials of our own individual lives as faithful servants, then the glory of God is revealed in us. When it seems that all hope is lost, and we have come to the end of all endurance, it is then promised that He will be glorified in us. Without the sufferings and trials, He cannot prove Himself faithful. He is developing us for greater things. In our training ground and nursery called earth, we are being purified to rule with Christ. So, then we will be equal with Christ, but not equal with the Father who sits on the Throne.

This is our hope. Knowing that all the sufferings, trials, and tribulations are doing their work in our souls. Bringing a purification through fire that is preparing us for a more glorious work throughout eternity. To become submissive now, is to be raised later. To learn the lessons now, and to remain faithful will yield their rewards as we stand before Him giving account of what we did with the treasures He has given us.

I would think that the following questions are the ones that He will be asking. As Christians, the way we are able to answer them will determine where our place is…now and in Eternity. If we allow the Judgment to fall on us now, it will go better for us later.

Did we remain faithful through the tribulations of our life? Or did we become offended, and fall away?
Did we use His treasures and gifts to further His Kingdom, or our own? What did we do with what He gave us?
Did we stand up for righteousness and truth…or did we bend to what others wanted to hear?

There are very hard times coming upon the Americas, and world. There will be an unprecedented economic collapse and terrorist attacks, devastating earthquakes, war with our own species, and then war with those not of this planet. We will see things that will make the most far out sci-fi movie seem normal. As the next 5 to 10 years take it’s toll on our bodies, and souls, we will need to keep a Hope in place. It will be necessary to be very solid in Who we trust and put our faith in. Our hope is a future beyond what is currently known.

Our place is not one of comfort and ease in this life, but our Hope is to be made joint-heirs with the King. This is what all the struggle and tribulations are for. The process of The Creator creating Companions is not over, but just begun. We are only on the first step of developing into what He truly has planned for us to fulfill.

As we go through these times of sorrow, pain, and testings, this Hope is what will see us through to the next step that He has for us. Which in all of eternity, He has promised that His plans are not to harm us but to give us a hope and a future. And ALL things work together for good for those who love Him and are called according to His purpose. This future is not truly felt on this earth, but can be glimpsed. This future will be uncovered in parts as we continue the journey with Him in Spirit and in Truth throughout all ages, not just this age. When we expand our view of life to include beyond this one, then this life’s burdens will be easier to endure. For He really is working all things for our ultimate good. Whether it feels good or not.

 

[bgsda]

Nice thread. This is a common question as to why God would let Lucifer rebel and turn to Satan if He knew it will happen. That goes to show what a wonderful God we serve. He cannot and will not force anything on us. He gives us free-will. Lucifer rebelled because he chose to. Do you not think that God must have pleaded with him to stop? Do you not think that He had patience and long-suffering with him? At the end it comes down to choice. God could have made us like robots or a computer.
Like someone said once you can program your computer to say it loves you everytime you open it up. But is that really love? Its love only when the thing or person chooses to love out of its heart. Jesus knew what Judas was going to do but if you look at how Jesus treated Judas even when He knew what he was going to do its amazing. Before he gave the Lord up Jesus washed his feet, let Him sit next to Him, and pleade with him yet judas chose his destiny. God gave us free-will because he loves us. Praise him

 

[David777]

Interesting thread Chad, hope you do not mind if I propose
another way of viewing the most awesome landscape of man's
will and God's purposes (will).

You did offer an extract from the Westminster Confession
explained by you as follows.

What this is saying is that God ordains future events in such a way that our freedom and
the working of secondary causes (e.g., laws of nature) are preserved. Theologians call this
“concurrence.” God’s sovereign will flows concurrently with our free choices in such a
way that our free choices always result in the carrying out of God’s will (by “free
choices” we mean that our choices are not coerced by outside influences).

Perhaps a better way of understanding this manufactured paradox,
human choice and the Sovereignty of God's will. One would
firstly need to understand whether mans will is involved in the
first instance.

God created Adam and Eve, warning was given by God, the wrong choice
was made. Disobedience or sin enslaved all future generations.
This is quite clear from the account in Genesis. What many do
not understand is that choice or free will no longer existed.
Not only were we expelled from paradise but we also
lost freedom, most importantly freedom to choose.

From a human perspective it is not so much the decision
making process that man exercises in life. Rather the exertion
of the will driven by the sinful nature within and the slavery
to the spirit of the air. Before Christ we are in slavery to sin
without choice regarding our destiny, zero decision making is
involved.

Romans 7:14
For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin.

Ephesians 2:2
in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according
to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons
of disobedience.

Man in his natural state is in slavery to the devil and sin.

Free will does not exist, it is a phantom of philosophy.

So then we know that mankind is in fact subjected to
slavery which results in wrath and judgement. We of our
own volition are not able to rectify our nature, our
destiny was settled long ago.

In Christ, true liberty and freedom is available in the new
creation. So it may be proven that there is no such entity
as free will in the non Christian domain. Using the
scriptures I will now illustrate there is no free will but
only slavery.

15 For what I am doing, I do not understand;
for I am not practicing what I would like to
do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. (Romans 7)

Paul was unable to act out any decision he had made,
Paul was subject to the control of sin. Paul's will
was void, Paul was not in control the sinful nature
controlled his life.

There is forever that apparent apparition of choices beset
by the reality of the dictates of the will within that forces the
choice and action that follows. Hence, Paul
in the flesh does not act according to his aspirations only in
accord with what his flesh commands him to do.
"Forgive them for they know not what they do."

Liberty from the will of the flesh only ever can be realized
in the freedom granted by acceptance of the will of God in
Christ Jesus. God's sovereign will may only ever be understood
through and in Christ. The revelation of Jesus Christ is the powerful
output of the engine of the will of God. As all are imprisoned by
disobedience, all also may be liberated by their creator.
It is truly not the wish of our Father that anyone perish. God's eternal
love over rides the necessary punishment that is due us all.
Love is the hallmark of all of God's decisions. For God so loved...

The only solution to the paradox of God's will and man's will, may
only be completely answered by the understanding of the revelation
of Jesus Christ to a world shrouded in the darkness of corruption.

Only under the jurisdiction of the Holy Spirit is there any
freedom of will. We may choose Jesus and only Jesus which
is the full extent of our choice.

I do not see the will of God blended with the free choices of
mankind. Rather the supreme will of God arching above the
conditioned and predictable nature of man. Mankind always
chooses selfishly for his own welfare. Christianity is the only
pathway to escape the slavery of sin, sin offers no choice.

I have never been a fan of "free will", the scripture forces
upon us the total reality of the slavery to sin and death.
A life controlled completely by external forces!

No one by free choice would ever choose God
rather they are much more comfortable obeying the
spirit of the air. Performing the works of the flesh!

Scripture does state;

32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to
all. (Romans 11)

Did you notice that God has given all over to disobedience.
God gave us over to sin. No free will is possible in this state,
"we do what we do not want to do". Our sinful nature
controls absolutely, our free will is absent but choices
though not free of external influence are still made.

There is only one choice in life of absolute importance.

Will you choose under the influence of the Holy Spirit,
Life and Liberty or sin and death. This is the only true
choice available, emancipation or the default death.

Colossians 1:27

27 to whom God willed to make known what are the riches
of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is
Christ in you, the hope of glory.

God's will properly understood is love manifested in His
Son's sacrifice for us. God does all things from the stand
point of Love. For God so loved the world...
Always love is expressed through His will, in fact the only
real outcome of the Christian life is love from a pure heart.

Creation, subjection to disobedience and salvation are
all the will of God. Human interaction in these processes
via free will is absent, slavery is the default condition.

Conclusion, God's will is obedience to Jesus, the choice
is only possible given the Holy Spirits interaction. No
freedom of will in the human realm, choice is most certainly
subject to external causes and effects.

It is not so much that we pray for God's will to be done.

We celebrate the immense beauty of God's will fully realized
in the full and eternal reconciliation freely granted to us in Christ.
God's elaborate will has already taken place, from long ago.
Do you accept Jesus?

 

[Asanima]

Can i ask a question?

Would it have been impossible for God to manifest his glory without having to resort to orchestrating the fall of man and creating lucifer?

 

[Asanima]

Nice thread. This is a common question as to why God would let Lucifer rebel and turn to Satan if He knew it will happen. That goes to show what a wonderful God we serve. He cannot and will not force anything on us. He gives us free-will. Lucifer rebelled because he chose to. Do you not think that God must have pleaded with him to stop? Do you not think that He had patience and long-suffering with him? At the end it comes down to choice. God could have made us like robots or a computer.
Like someone said once you can program your computer to say it loves you everytime you open it up. But is that really love? Its love only when the thing or person chooses to love out of its heart. Jesus knew what Judas was going to do but if you look at how Jesus treated Judas even when He knew what he was going to do its amazing. Before he gave the Lord up Jesus washed his feet, let Him sit next to Him, and pleade with him yet judas chose his destiny. God gave us free-will because he loves us. Praise him

Is convincing someone not to do something, violating their free will? If God had convinced Lucifer not to rebel, or convinced Adam and Eve not to eat the fruit, even after the Snake made the argument to Eve to eat the fruit, would it have violated their free will?

 

[Brad Huber]

Can i ask a question?

Would it have been impossible for God to manifest his glory without having to resort to orchestrating the fall of man and creating lucifer?

God did not orchestrate the fall of man, man did. God did not create lucifer, he created a good creature, that due to his own choice became Lucifer. Why do you want to blame God for evil? Do you not realize how terribly evil we humans can be on our own. Do you try to make mankind innocent and God evil? How is it you can so easily come to that conclusion?

 

[Brad Huber]

Is convincing someone not to do something, violating their free will? If God had convinced Lucifer not to rebel, or convinced Adam and Eve not to eat the fruit, even after the Snake made the argument to Eve to eat the fruit, would it have violated their free will?

Convince you say? And how was God to convince them? Surely you know how, sinse you seem so sure He could do so. Enlighten us, share your wisdom in convincing, free will choices would not be broken by your type of "convincing". And please avoid assumptions, they are always so presumptous. They are laced with man's flawed logic.

 

[Asanima]

God did not orchestrate the fall of man, man did. God did not create lucifer, he created a good creature, that due to his own choice became Lucifer. Why do you want to blame God for evil? Do you not realize how terribly evil we humans can be on our own. Do you try to make mankind innocent and God evil? How is it you can so easily come to that conclusion?

I never said i blame God for evil, but thats what the word orchestrate, means. This was Gods plan. I suggest you look up what the word "Orchestrate" means.

Let me put it another way, since you seem offended by the choice of words i used. Could God have manifested his glory, and have Adam and Eve not fall into sin?

 

[Asanima]

Convince you say? And how was God to convince them? Surely you know how, sinse you seem so sure He could do so. Enlighten us, share your wisdom in convincing, free will choices would not be broken by your type of "convincing". And please avoid assumptions, they are always so presumptous. They are laced with man's flawed logic.

Are you saying that it is impossible for God to convince Adam/Eve or Lucifer, not to do what they did? Did God not have the knowledge of what words to say to Lucifer/Eve that would have prevented them from falling? My problem here, isnt with the fact that God didnt prevent Adam/Lucifer to do the things that they did, because "Its part of Gods plan" answers that problem to an extent. My problem is with the "It would violate their free will" argument presented by BGSDA.

Im going on the assumption that God is all knowing and all powerful, and therefore would be able to know what to say to them that wouldve prevented their fall, i.e. Convincing them not to do it. If those assumptions are wrong, please, correct me.

 

[Brad Huber]

Are you saying that it is impossible for God to convince Adam/Eve or Lucifer, not to do what they did? Did God not have the knowledge of what words to say to Lucifer/Eve that would have prevented them from falling? My problem here, isnt with the fact that God didnt prevent Adam/Lucifer to do the things that they did, because "Its part of Gods plan" answers that problem to an extent. My problem is with the "It would violate their free will" argument presented by BGSDA.

Im going on the assumption that God is all knowing and all powerful, and therefore would be able to know what to say to them that wouldve prevented their fall, i.e. Convincing them not to do it. If those assumptions are wrong, please, correct me.

And you dont seem to understand that to "Convince" them would take away that free will option. Saying that God is all knowing and all powerful is true, but then your logic fails when you say therefore.... assuming that under said conditions, such and such should happen. You assume. You are wrong. You are corrected.

 

[Asanima]

And you dont seem to understand that to "Convince" them would take away that free will option. Saying that God is all knowing and all powerful is true, but then your logic fails when you say therefore.... assuming that under said conditions, such and such should happen. You assume. You are wrong. You are corrected.

Well, thats what i was asking. I was asking whether convincing someone would violate their free will. Can you explain how this violates free will? People are convinced about things all the time by other people, does this mean that they are violating the others free will by convincing them?

Also, i never said that such and such should happen. You came and asked me how God could've convinced Lucifer/eve, and my response was that God could, if he wanted to, based on his abilities, i.e. omnipotence, omniscience, etc. Again, what exactly are you correcting me on?

 

[Brad Huber]

Well, thats what i was asking. I was asking whether convincing someone would violate their free will. Can you explain how this violates free will? People are convinced about things all the time by other people, does this mean that they are violating the others free will by convincing them?

Also, i never said that such and such should happen. You came and asked me how God could've convinced Lucifer/eve, and my response was that God could, if he wanted to, based on his abilities, i.e. omnipotence, omniscience, etc. Again, what exactly are you correcting me on?

God is all powerful, and omnipotent, etc. But when we as humans think of this, we only think of what we "could" do if we had such powers. God knows exactly what will happen if He takes any specific action. We can only guess as to the consequence of anything we attempt that we dont fully understand, to include the spiritual aspects of the consequences. You dont even believe in the spiritual and therefore anything said on that is not valid to you. But there is some things of the flesh you can understand. If God were to for example make His physical voice speak with a human with a hypnotic tone to convince us we shouldnt do something, that is using a superior quality to affect the outcome, and is affecting our free will. God in Eden gave man just a few simple rules that we know of,one being to not eat of the fruit of the forbidden tree of knowledge. A warning, but no overt command that presses us to "Do" the right thing. If our spirits are coerced, then we are not free, and the Lord wants freedom for us out of love.
Yes, we as humans often try to coerce others to do our biding, but this is not the way the Lord works, but we are a fallen creation and do many ungodly things. Even when christians evangelize others, we often step over the line in coercing them to accept the Lord out of fear. Its sometimes a fine line between coercing and simple sharing of what we believe to be the truth with another. They allow to to share what you believe to be the truth on this forum, even though its a christian forum. Some might think you are an enemy to the faith, and deserve getting booted, others want you to stay around in the hopes that our faith will eventually create a spark of interest in the real God that you no doubt have never met or have no memory of. We as christians are to let our "light" shine, meaning we are to let our life and our words make others want to know more about the Lord and His love for us. If the decision was made to boot you from this forum sinse you are not a christian, they woudnt have to worry about your words making some fall away. But in the hope that your free will would chose to believe in God, speaking to Him, you are allowed to be the tare amoung the wheat. Just because you dont understand the ramifications (as neither do I) of most of your decisions, doesnt mean you know the ulitmate end of God's decision to not convince, but simply tell us the rules and let us decide whether to follow those rules or not.

 

[Asanima]

God is all powerful, and omnipotent, etc. But when we as humans think of this, we only think of what we "could" do if we had such powers. God knows exactly what will happen if He takes any specific action. We can only guess as to the consequence of anything we attempt that we dont fully understand, to include the spiritual aspects of the consequences. You dont even believe in the spiritual and therefore anything said on that is not valid to you. But there is some things of the flesh you can understand. If God were to for example make His physical voice speak with a human with a hypnotic tone to convince us we shouldnt do something, that is using a superior quality to affect the outcome, and is affecting our free will. God in Eden gave man just a few simple rules that we know of,one being to not eat of the fruit of the forbidden tree of knowledge. A warning, but no overt command that presses us to "Do" the right thing. If our spirits are coerced, then we are not free, and the Lord wants freedom for us out of love.

Okay, so when God spoke to, for example, Moses, or Paul, a) did he know the outcome beforehand, and b) did he use his "hypnotic tone" to get them to beleieve/act on specific things?

Yes, we as humans often try to coerce others to do our biding, but this is not the way the Lord works, but we are a fallen creation and do many ungodly things. Even when christians evangelize others, we often step over the line in coercing them to accept the Lord out of fear. Its sometimes a fine line between coercing and simple sharing of what we believe to be the truth with another. They allow to to share what you believe to be the truth on this forum, even though its a christian forum. Some might think you are an enemy to the faith, and deserve getting booted, others want you to stay around in the hopes that our faith will eventually create a spark of interest in the real God that you no doubt have never met or have no memory of. We as christians are to let our "light" shine, meaning we are to let our life and our words make others want to know more about the Lord and His love for us. If the decision was made to boot you from this forum sinse you are not a christian, they woudnt have to worry about your words making some fall away. But in the hope that your free will would chose to believe in God, speaking to Him, you are allowed to be the tare amoung the wheat. Just because you dont understand the ramifications (as neither do I) of most of your decisions, doesnt mean you know the ulitmate end of God's decision to not convince, but simply tell us the rules and let us decide whether to follow those rules or not.

I understand what you say, but heres the problem. Belief isnt subject to the will. You cannot choose to believe, you have to be convinced.

I can come here and type "I believe that God exists", but it wouldnt be true, because i wouldnt truly believe it. Kinda like, the story of those reporters who were caught by Muslims and forced on camera to accept Islam or die. I dont believe for a second, that their conversion was sincere. I doubt there is a single christian here who, before they were christian, woke up one day and said "You know what, today im gonna choose to be a christian."

And thats why im here, im here to be convinced so that i can believe.

 

[Brad Huber]

Okay, so when God spoke to, for example, Moses, or Paul, a) did he know the outcome beforehand, and b) did he use his "hypnotic tone" to get them to beleieve/act on specific things?

Obviously I wasnt there. But using a hypnotic tone doesnt follow the nature of God.


I understand what you say, but heres the problem. Belief isnt subject to the will. You cannot choose to believe, you have to be convinced.

Biggest mistake of atheists, making statements of fact when the facts arent there. Belief IS subject to the will. Just because you say it isnt doesnt make it so.

I can come here and type "I believe that God exists", but it wouldnt be true, because i wouldnt truly believe it. Kinda like, the story of those reporters who were caught by Muslims and forced on camera to accept Islam or die. I dont believe for a second, that their conversion was sincere. I doubt there is a single christian here who, before they were christian, woke up one day and said "You know what, today im gonna choose to be a christian."

Of course not, its more of a on the spot moment that takes hold of you in the depths of your spirit, and rocks your world, to include conviction, amazement, and about a dozen more emotions. Its not a logical decision that can be put under a microscope. Deja vu is an amazing thing that cannot be explained fully, but scientists dont try to downplay it, but faith IS downplayed as not worthy of an "intelligent" person, making thier own sqewered view of faith dominant in all thier study of it, thus negating the objectivity needed in studying it at all.

And thats why im here, im here to be convinced so that i can believe.

I may be wrong, but I dont think you are being honest there. I used to be an atheist. Myself and my friends of the same nature wanted nothing to do with religion. We thought it was a crutch at best, and filled with charlatans who use the mindlessness of it to gather the power of many believers and wield it as a sword against others or to gain wealth. The ones who usually visit christian websites were hard core atheists who were out to convert others away from christianity and to thier own faith... man's scientific knowledge. But regardless of your intention, you are here, THAT is fact.

 

[Shutterbug]

Unfortunately, we do not know with certainty all of the details which lead us to where we are now. The Bible briefly describes a few events which range from a general history to a complete fantasy. WRT Eve, she was a bit special because she only had Adam's word that two trees in the Garden were off limits. When the Serpent suggested that one of the trees was lovely and the fruit could give her greater abilities, she originally protested declaring that eating the fruit would be fatal. The intent of the Serpent's reply was "Nah, God only said that to keep you away from the trees". A well designed trap uses bait to entice its victim.

We are in the same position as Eve: our knowledge of God is second hand. Can we trust him in the sense that his desires should always over rule our desires? If Yes, then God can use us. If not, we are of no use to Him. An imposed handicap is that obedience is by faith, which is not physically tangible. Society likes the concept that there is a greater power which has our best interests in mind. I recently watched a movie titled, "Hell Boy". Not unlike many others of its kind, the story line suggests that those who are basically good with some faith in God will prevail over the Forces of Darkness. Well, with a bit of help from technology. No matter how powerful Evil becomes, Good always triumphs.

If we want God out of our lives, he will abide by our wish. Problem is, we are never alone as that darker personage is now free to influence us without restraint. We can't have it both ways. This is the choice we are given: do you really think any of this stuff in the Bible is true? Or, is there another path (gate)? Or, is it a complete fantasy?

Or, will you say as Joshua said, "As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord"? Or, like the rich man who turned away when requested to simply walk away from wealth and lead a life of poverty? Or, do you believe that Heaven and Hell is what we make of the place? Cheers, John

 

[Asanima]

Obviously I wasnt there. But using a hypnotic tone doesnt follow the nature of God.

Okay, so did God know beforehand whether Moses/Paul would be convinced?

Biggest mistake of atheists, making statements of fact when the facts arent there. Belief IS subject to the will. Just because you say it isnt doesnt make it so.

Okay, let me take this in a different direction. Do you agree that there are some beliefs that are not subject to the will, i.e. cannot simply be a matter of choice, such as the belief that Gravity does not exist?

Of course not, its more of a on the spot moment that takes hold of you in the depths of your spirit, and rocks your world, to include conviction, amazement, and about a dozen more emotions. Its not a logical decision that can be put under a microscope. Deja vu is an amazing thing that cannot be explained fully, but scientists dont try to downplay it, but faith IS downplayed as not worthy of an "intelligent" person, making thier own sqewered view of faith dominant in all thier study of it, thus negating the objectivity needed in studying it at all.

First off, i dont understand what you mean by "Faith is downplayed". What exactly about faith, is being downplayed? Scientists also dont try to claim that Deja Vu is a mythical, supernatural event, nor do they say the same about faith. Faith can apply to anything. Maybe youre using a different definition of Faith than i am, and if so, please define it so that we can be on the same page, but i still dont understand what you mean by "Faith is downplayed". Downplayed from what?

Secondly, you are aware that a good chunk of scientists are religious, and therefore necessarily have faith, right? So the "Sqewered view" of faith that you speak of, is pertaining to what, exactly?

I may be wrong, but I dont think you are being honest there. I used to be an atheist. Myself and my friends of the same nature wanted nothing to do with religion. We thought it was a crutch at best, and filled with charlatans who use the mindlessness of it to gather the power of many believers and wield it as a sword against others or to gain wealth. The ones who usually visit christian websites were hard core atheists who were out to convert others away from christianity and to thier own faith... man's scientific knowledge. But regardless of your intention, you are here, THAT is fact.

I dont think i would be asking so many questions if my objective was to convert others to atheism, nor would i stick around around with even more questions to those answers, if I wasnt interested in seeking answers in the first place.

My current position is that, I have specific problems regarding the theology of Christianity that prevent me from accepting it as true. Maybe, as some people have pointed out, it is simply a matter of divine revelation, that i need to wait for God to reveal himself to me. But these problems would still exist even if i became a christian. Its the entire reason why so many sects of christianity exist, because even after people believed and accepted Jesus/God, they still had problems regarding specific aspects of thier past theology or interpretation from their church. So asking for these problems to be addressed, has nothing to do with converting christians away from christianity. At the most, it has to do with whether i can get past these problems that prevent me from becoming a christian.