If God knew that Satan would rebel...

[Asanima]

Unfortunately, we do not know with certainty all of the details which lead us to where we are now. The Bible briefly describes a few events which range from a general history to a complete fantasy. WRT Eve, she was a bit special because she only had Adam's word that two trees in the Garden were off limits. When the Serpent suggested that one of the trees was lovely and the fruit could give her greater abilities, she originally protested declaring that eating the fruit would be fatal. The intent of the Serpent's reply was "Nah, God only said that to keep you away from the trees". A well designed trap uses bait to entice its victim.

We are in the same position as Eve: our knowledge of God is second hand. Can we trust him in the sense that his desires should always over rule our desires? If Yes, then God can use us. If not, we are of no use to Him. An imposed handicap is that obedience is by faith, which is not physically tangible. Society likes the concept that there is a greater power which has our best interests in mind. I recently watched a movie titled, "Hell Boy". Not unlike many others of its kind, the story line suggests that those who are basically good with some faith in God will prevail over the Forces of Darkness. Well, with a bit of help from technology. No matter how powerful Evil becomes, Good always triumphs.

If we want God out of our lives, he will abide by our wish. Problem is, we are never alone as that darker personage is now free to influence us without restraint. We can't have it both ways. This is the choice we are given: do you really think any of this stuff in the Bible is true? Or, is there another path (gate)? Or, is it a complete fantasy?

Or, will you say as Joshua said, "As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord"? Or, like the rich man who turned away when requested to simply walk away from wealth and lead a life of poverty? Or, do you believe that Heaven and Hell is what we make of the place? Cheers, John

The bible doesnt exactly state that the serpent was Satan, does it? Also, I know that some christians accept that, for example, Judas wasnt doing anything wrong, because if he hadnt pointed out Jesus to the Romans, Jesus would never have been crucified. Is it ever possible for someone to do something that we consider wrong, and still be used by God?

 

[David777]

Hello asanima, you may ask any question you wish.

God's glory is always manifested regardless of whether
we exist or not.

Our universe is extraordinary, this alone is testament
to the Glory of God.

"Behold a throne was set in heaven, and One sat on the throne -Revelation 4:2.

The One whom John saw was God Almighty Himself, in His manifested glory. I say 'in His manifested glory', for the sight of God in His essential glory is something which no man could survive; for St Paul tells us that God 'dwells in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see' 1 Tim. 6: 16. (Stephen's thread)

 

[Brad Huber]

Okay, so did God know beforehand whether Moses/Paul would be convinced?

Undoubtably.

Okay, let me take this in a different direction. Do you agree that there are some beliefs that are not subject to the will, i.e. cannot simply be a matter of choice, such as the belief that Gravity does not exist?

No, not really. It would be possible that anyone strong of will/belief could believe that we live on the back of a turtle held up by four giant elephants. just floating around in space. And that we are magically kept attached to the turtle shell instead of drifting off.

First off, i dont understand what you mean by "Faith is downplayed". What exactly about faith, is being downplayed? Scientists also dont try to claim that Deja Vu is a mythical, supernatural event, nor do they say the same about faith. Faith can apply to anything. Maybe youre using a different definition of Faith than i am, and if so, please define it so that we can be on the same page, but i still dont understand what you mean by "Faith is downplayed". Downplayed from what?

Faith is treated by atheists, who worship the knowledge of man from scientists, as flights of fancy and not worthy of true objective study. Any studies they start (as seen on the history channel) have an obvious slant that the faith is mythical in nature, and thats what they always lean towards. Not all scientists are believers, thats true, but a large majority are non believers. Sort of like 95% of all media have an obvious left slant, where fox news have a right slant. The same slant that most of the liberal media use is the obvious example of how most of the scientific community have a bias against things of faith.

Secondly, you are aware that a good chunk of scientists are religious, and therefore necessarily have faith, right? So the "Sqewered view" of faith that you speak of, is pertaining to what, exactly?

Question already answered.

I dont think i would be asking so many questions if my objective was to convert others to atheism, nor would i stick around around with even more questions to those answers, if I wasnt interested in seeking answers in the first place.

So you say. I hope it is true.

My current position is that, I have specific problems regarding the theology of Christianity that prevent me from accepting it as true. Maybe, as some people have pointed out, it is simply a matter of divine revelation, that i need to wait for God to reveal himself to me. But these problems would still exist even if i became a christian. Its the entire reason why so many sects of christianity exist, because even after people believed and accepted Jesus/God, they still had problems regarding specific aspects of thier past theology or interpretation from their church. So asking for these problems to be addressed, has nothing to do with converting christians away from christianity. At the most, it has to do with whether i can get past these problems that prevent me from becoming a christian.

But on your home page, you state you are and have been for some time an atheist. You dont state you are a seeker of truth, but that you have had some experience with faith and dismissed it and became an atheist and have been for some time. With every question answered, you cant accept the faith aspect. You just stated that unless God reveals Himself to you solidly as Jesus did after His rise from the dead, you would not believe. And even then, you would still find fault with the christian church for the faults that indeed are found within it. You also seem to be blaming the splintered, hypocritical members of the faith to be of God's fault. As if He should again forcibly make the members of the church adhere to the way He wishes... the "right" way in your mind. God tells us what to do, I chose to follow Him despite the faults of the church, made up of faulty humans. Indeed, we should be witnesses to church members, as to the best way to follow God, but pride, and institution keeps most from changing for the better. But God deals with us individually as well as a group, focus on the individual, not the group, or you shall never see the glory of the Lord.

 

[Rev T.S.Perkins]

wow ..what a bunch of great answers and scriptures to back it up// if God did not allow us the choice of free will we would be in realationship out of bondage and not love for our God..God belived the best of His creation and even though we fell short in the Garden He still made a way in the wilderness of our disobedience to restore realationship...all the whys and wherefores pale in comparisson to the love shown for us on the Cross ..So is the important thing here WHY God allowed or that God DID provide a way back to right realationship with the Father....in my humble opinion...Martha,Martha..why major in the minor things..?

 

[Shutterbug]

Good morning Asanima;

Actually, it does specifically state just that. "And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceives the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him".

Your handle is interesting. As an I'm a ..., but I'm not there yet. Therefore, I really don't know what I am other than a living, breathing, behavioural member of the human genus. However, I am an atheist because I haven't made up my mind if God exists.

Predestination is a term used to define "I can't help myself because God meant me to do that. Therefore, I assume no responsibility and am not accountable." I agree that some events are preordained. I am also of the opinion that like genetics, there exists a degree of freedom as to how things may turn out. Can God use evil for good? If he has to. Does he allow evil to happen? Certainly. Is it in his best interests? That depends on how you choose to regard it. It's been said that if you love something, set it free. If it comes back to you, it's your's. If it doesn't, then it never was.

I'll tell you what I find amusing about many atheists - their profanity. It is amazing how many times they express the name of someone who does not exist. If anything, one would think they would use their own name. Christianity isn't about being religious; it's about being a child of the one who created us. It's about being loved, and returning that love by loving others. Christianity isn't an academic subject: it's a way of life whose benefits far outweigh being otherwise.

The Devil does not want you to know Jesus or accept his ways. He had his chance and refused it by rejecting his lot in life and wanting to become like God. He rebelled against God in his heart to overthrow him, but Satan could not do it alone. He convinced a third of the angels to join in his rebellion. He lost. He has been allowed to influence us to also join in his rebellion by putting our own will first. In effect, we become like God putting no other gods before us. Would you want someone living in your house who disregards your rules and imposes their own rules which work against you? God does not. But, he has given people the opportunity to do just that. He has also given them the opportunity to change. If they do not, he cannot use them. God tosses them out to be disposed of.

Look at Nature. Do you really believe that life (plant and animal) began as a haphazard group of proteins which somehow came to life all by itself? Evolution teaches that. But, Evolution also ignores that the plant and animal kingdom should be continually evolving with new creations being formed all the time. Evolution does not take millions of years. It only takes one generation to effect a change.

Cheers,
John

 

[cheezitz]

Nice thread. This is a common question as to why God would let Lucifer rebel and turn to Satan if He knew it will happen. That goes to show what a wonderful God we serve. He cannot and will not force anything on us. He gives us free-will. Lucifer rebelled because he chose to. Do you not think that God must have pleaded with him to stop? Do you not think that He had patience and long-suffering with him? At the end it comes down to choice. God could have made us like robots or a computer.
Like someone said once you can program your computer to say it loves you everytime you open it up. But is that really love? Its love only when the thing or person chooses to love out of its heart. Jesus knew what Judas was going to do but if you look at how Jesus treated Judas even when He knew what he was going to do its amazing. Before he gave the Lord up Jesus washed his feet, let Him sit next to Him, and pleade with him yet judas chose his destiny. God gave us free-will because he loves us. Praise him

May i share my response in reading your post? Mind if i ask why you think God may have pleaded with Lucifer?

Thank you kindly.

 

[amadeus2]

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Question: "If God knew that Satan would rebel and Adam and Eve would sin, why did He create them?"

Perhaps some of those who have responded previously have alluded to the idea that God created people who given other alternatives would in the end of the matter choose to love Him first and foremost.

God did give man essentially two choices, to go his own way, or to go God's Way. It is spelled out well in Joshua:

And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD." Joshua 24:15

Jesus put it this way: "No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon." Matt 6:24

In these verses and throughout scripture we see that God gave the authority to man. Even God would not take away that authority from man. He wanted man to return the authority to man, but the decision to hold onto the reins or not remained to men. That is our so-called "free-will": to choose God or ourselves.

God wants a group of people who when given another choice chose Him. The alternative can be and is very attractive to men. They have been seduced by it from the Garden of Eden up to the present day.

God cannot change His own Word. That is one of His limitations, if you want to call it that. God by His Word gave man the authority to limit God. Man has done exactly that all too often:

"Yea, they turned back and tempted God, and limited the Holy One of Israel." Psalm 78:41

Man alone can do nothing, that is nothing in the eyes of God, for anything that is not good is nothing in the eyes of God:

"I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing." John 15:5

But man can pervert good things. He has proven himself able to do that. Remember these words:

"And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day." Gen 1:31

It was all "very good" until God's creature used the God-given authority to corrupt it.

"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth." Gen 1:28

Man was given the dominion and that was OK as long as he remained innocent and consulted regularly with God and left the real decisions in God's hands. Everything was "very good" until men started making the decisions, which only God was able to competently make:

"O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps." Jerem 10:23

In the Garden man ate of the fruit which gave him knowledge of things without real understanding. It was knowledge in darkness. The Light was necessary to understand. But... men have most often chosen to follow the way of darkness which is his own way. All of God's creation was "very good" and would remain so if God was obeyed in the proper Way to use that creation. God always understood that men would go astray and exalt himself rather than his Creator. There would, however, be a few who would look to God where help was always waiting... God also knew this.

Men always think they are right. We see it on this forum in discussion about the written scriptures. But... even in the scriptures we cannot easily admit that we might be wrong. We need to learn to see it as God sees in order to please Him. That is what He wants. That is the "strait" and the "narrow...way":

"Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." Matt 7:14

God gave Solomon so much wisdom, but even having it, he still messed up in his own life, didn't he?

"Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil." Prov 3:7

"All the ways of a man are clean in his own eyes; but the LORD weigheth the spirits." Prov 16:2

"Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts" Prov 21:2

So what is it God wants for us? What is it He has for us? Solomon had wisdom and knowledge, but those were not the most important things.

Paul spells it out for us here:

"Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal.

And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.

And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing." I Cor 13:1-3

Love (or charity) is the thing and what exactly is that?

It is the only thing that make pleasing to God and He is very willing to put it in us:

"And we have known and believed the love that God has for us. God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God in him." I John 4:16

So what is God then that is to be in us? Again to Paul...

"Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up;

does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil;

does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth;

bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things." I Cor 13:4-7

Paul expresses it differently here:

"To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles: which is Christ in you, the hope of glory." Col 1:27

That is, in effect, God in us!

But... the point is that we must choose it over all of our own ways. We cannot make it happen, but it is our choice whether it will happen or not. If we choose rightly and continue to choose rightly the Holy Spirit will work in us cleaning out the garbage and bringing to Life in us the Word of God. Why do you think Paul said..?

"Quench not the Spirit." I Thess 5:19

The Spirit, God in us, alone can do the work, but we still decide whether God is allowed to bring His work to completion in us or not. We can, and too often do, quench the Holy Spirit and go our own ways. God gave us the authority, but He wants us to give it back to Him daily, continuously. Will we do it?

Glory to His name!​

 

[Last Things]

Can i ask a question?

Would it have been impossible for God to manifest his glory without having to resort to orchestrating the fall of man and creating lucifer?

God did not need to do anything to be Himself. God does not need creation, He would be the same without it. Luther was created because God is love and not creating someone because you do not like their choices is not very loving.

 

[Last Things]

Is convincing someone not to do something, violating their free will? If God had convinced Lucifer not to rebel, or convinced Adam and Eve not to eat the fruit, even after the Snake made the argument to Eve to eat the fruit, would it have violated their free will?

Angels would have infinite knowledge and complete free will. There is nothing for God to convince. Angels do not change their minds. They exists outside of time, whatever they wish to be they are forever. Heaven exists more as an eternal moment.

The fall of man was not necessarily a bad thing. It brought about salvation in which humans are more intimately linked to God through Christ. Instead of being creatures, we are more like brothers.

 

[Last Things]

I may be wrong, but I dont think you are being honest there. I used to be an atheist. Myself and my friends of the same nature wanted nothing to do with religion. We thought it was a crutch at best, and filled with charlatans who use the mindlessness of it to gather the power of many believers and wield it as a sword against others or to gain wealth. The ones who usually visit christian websites were hard core atheists who were out to convert others away from christianity and to thier own faith... man's scientific knowledge. But regardless of your intention, you are here, THAT is fact.

People leave for different reasons. Sometimes they aren't bitter, they just don't see a reason.

 

[eddieb]

Isaiah 54:16-17 "See, it is I who created the blacksmith who fans the coals into flame and forges a weapon fit for its work. And it is I who have created the destroyer to wreak havoc; no weapon forged against you will prevail, and you will refute every tongue that accuses you. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and this is their vindication from me," declares the LORD.

Everything God does will bring Him glory. Amen.

 

[RJ]

What a great talk!

• I think that understanding God's absolute perfection is the key to the many theologies that arise from the Bible, especially what must it take to get our imperfect selves into his presence?
• There are many more verses that talk about free will but here are a few of my favorite: Proverbs 16:19, John 3:16, Ephesians 2:8-9 and Revelation 3:20
• God is spirit and we must worship him in spirit and truth. A truth from pure logic, is that our God , in his perfection, could only devise a perfect plan to bring us into his perfect holy presence and, that can only include our free will or choice.

 

[Giggles4God]

I wanted to "interject" an idea, if I may.

I will say this first, I am not versed as a theologian, but I AM a born-again, Spirit-filled woman...daughter of the Most High! With that being said, I believe that instead of the word "convince" what should be used is "woo." God is wooing us to do His will. He wants us, yearns for us to spend time with Him. He yearns to have that intimacy with us.

When satan decided he was "better" and "knew everything," pride took over. Once that happened, once he tried to overtake God's place, he was cast out. God gets angry. God won't allow anything or anyone to take His place! He is a jealous God after all.

The whole Bible is a testament to the love of God. Every word, sentence, every piece is written in such a way to draw us close to Him. He says "come" and we choose to obey or not.