Oh boy. Lot is referred to as Abrams "brother" yet they have completely different parents. That's just one example, obviously "brother" does not mean the individuals have the same mother or the same father. Many non-Catholics who read the Bible don't understand that languages, and thus words, change meaning and that translations are by no means perfect. A bible translator may translate the same word into different English words based on his bias. And also there is often is no understanding of Jewish idioms. Those who start with an anti-Catholic bias and look for things to show those Catholics are wrong found all kinds of things. But to me it is remarkable that so many easily dis-proven stories last for decades if not centuries.
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INDIVIDUALS VS THE MAJORITY
- Thread starter JLG
- Start date
- My answer:
- Matthew 13:55: (biblehub)
His
αὐτοῦ (autou)
Personal / Possessive Pronoun - Genitive Masculine 3rd Person Singular
Strong's 846: He, she, it, they, them, same. From the particle au; the reflexive pronoun self, used of the third person, and of the other persons.
brothers
ἀδελφοὶ (adelphoi)
Noun - Nominative Masculine Plural
Strong's 80: A brother, member of the same religious community, especially a fellow-Christian. A brother near or remote.
- Matthew 13:56: (biblehub)
His
αὐτοῦ (autou)
Personal / Possessive Pronoun - Genitive Masculine 3rd Person Singular
Strong's 846: He, she, it, they, them, same. From the particle au; the reflexive pronoun self, used of the third person, and of the other persons.
sisters
ἀδελφαὶ (adelphai)
Noun - Nominative Feminine Plural
Strong's 79: A sister, a woman (fellow-)member of a church, a Christian woman. Fem of adephos; a sister.
- Mark 6:3 (biblehub)
[the] brother
ἀδελφὸς (adelphos)
Noun - Nominative Masculine Singular
Strong's 80: A brother, member of the same religious community, especially a fellow-Christian. A brother near or remote.
His
αὐτοῦ (autou)
Personal / Possessive Pronoun - Genitive Masculine 3rd Person Singular
Strong's 846: He, she, it, they, them, same. From the particle au; the reflexive pronoun self, used of the third person, and of the other persons.
sisters
ἀδελφαὶ (adelphai)
Noun - Nominative Feminine Plural
Strong's 79: A sister, a woman (fellow-)member of a church, a Christian woman. Fem of adephos; a sister.
- Matthew 12:48: (biblehub)
My
μου (mou)
Personal / Possessive Pronoun - Genitive 1st Person Singular
Strong's 1473: I, the first-person pronoun. A primary pronoun of the first person I.
brothers?”
ἀδελφοί (adelphoi)
Noun - Nominative Masculine Plural
Strong's 80: A brother, member of the same religious community, especially a fellow-Christian. A brother near or remote.
- Matthew 12:49: (biblehub)
My
μου (mou)
Personal / Possessive Pronoun - Genitive 1st Person Singular
Strong's 1473: I, the first-person pronoun. A primary pronoun of the first person I.
brothers.
ἀδελφοί (adelphoi)
Noun - Nominative Masculine Plural
Strong's 80: A brother, member of the same religious community, especially a fellow-Christian. A brother near or remote.
- Matthew 12:50: (biblehub)
My
μου (mou)
Personal / Possessive Pronoun - Genitive 1st Person Singular
Strong's 1473: I, the first-person pronoun. A primary pronoun of the first person I.
brother
ἀδελφὸς (adelphos)
Noun - Nominative Masculine Singular
Strong's 80: A brother, member of the same religious community, especially a fellow-Christian. A brother near or remote.
and
καὶ (kai)
Conjunction
Strong's 2532: And, even, also, namely.
sister
ἀδελφὴ (adelphē)
Noun - Nominative Feminine Singular
Strong's 79: A sister, a woman (fellow-)member of a church, a Christian woman. Fem of adephos; a sister.
and
καὶ (kai)
Conjunction
Strong's 2532: And, even, also, namely.
mother.”
μήτηρ (mētēr)
Noun - Nominative Feminine Singular
Strong's 3384: A mother. Apparently a primary word; a 'mother'.
- Matthew 13:55: (biblehub)
His
αὐτοῦ (autou)
Personal / Possessive Pronoun - Genitive Masculine 3rd Person Singular
Strong's 846: He, she, it, they, them, same. From the particle au; the reflexive pronoun self, used of the third person, and of the other persons.
brothers
ἀδελφοὶ (adelphoi)
Noun - Nominative Masculine Plural
Strong's 80: A brother, member of the same religious community, especially a fellow-Christian. A brother near or remote.
- Matthew 13:56: (biblehub)
His
αὐτοῦ (autou)
Personal / Possessive Pronoun - Genitive Masculine 3rd Person Singular
Strong's 846: He, she, it, they, them, same. From the particle au; the reflexive pronoun self, used of the third person, and of the other persons.
sisters
ἀδελφαὶ (adelphai)
Noun - Nominative Feminine Plural
Strong's 79: A sister, a woman (fellow-)member of a church, a Christian woman. Fem of adephos; a sister.
- Mark 6:3 (biblehub)
[the] brother
ἀδελφὸς (adelphos)
Noun - Nominative Masculine Singular
Strong's 80: A brother, member of the same religious community, especially a fellow-Christian. A brother near or remote.
His
αὐτοῦ (autou)
Personal / Possessive Pronoun - Genitive Masculine 3rd Person Singular
Strong's 846: He, she, it, they, them, same. From the particle au; the reflexive pronoun self, used of the third person, and of the other persons.
sisters
ἀδελφαὶ (adelphai)
Noun - Nominative Feminine Plural
Strong's 79: A sister, a woman (fellow-)member of a church, a Christian woman. Fem of adephos; a sister.
- Matthew 12:48: (biblehub)
My
μου (mou)
Personal / Possessive Pronoun - Genitive 1st Person Singular
Strong's 1473: I, the first-person pronoun. A primary pronoun of the first person I.
brothers?”
ἀδελφοί (adelphoi)
Noun - Nominative Masculine Plural
Strong's 80: A brother, member of the same religious community, especially a fellow-Christian. A brother near or remote.
- Matthew 12:49: (biblehub)
My
μου (mou)
Personal / Possessive Pronoun - Genitive 1st Person Singular
Strong's 1473: I, the first-person pronoun. A primary pronoun of the first person I.
brothers.
ἀδελφοί (adelphoi)
Noun - Nominative Masculine Plural
Strong's 80: A brother, member of the same religious community, especially a fellow-Christian. A brother near or remote.
- Matthew 12:50: (biblehub)
My
μου (mou)
Personal / Possessive Pronoun - Genitive 1st Person Singular
Strong's 1473: I, the first-person pronoun. A primary pronoun of the first person I.
brother
ἀδελφὸς (adelphos)
Noun - Nominative Masculine Singular
Strong's 80: A brother, member of the same religious community, especially a fellow-Christian. A brother near or remote.
and
καὶ (kai)
Conjunction
Strong's 2532: And, even, also, namely.
sister
ἀδελφὴ (adelphē)
Noun - Nominative Feminine Singular
Strong's 79: A sister, a woman (fellow-)member of a church, a Christian woman. Fem of adephos; a sister.
and
καὶ (kai)
Conjunction
Strong's 2532: And, even, also, namely.
mother.”
μήτηρ (mētēr)
Noun - Nominative Feminine Singular
Strong's 3384: A mother. Apparently a primary word; a 'mother'.
How old was Joseph when he married and when he died?
We don’t have exact answers to any of these questions because, as you say, we don’t hear much about Joseph in the Bible.
We do know that in New Testament times, Jewish women often married in their mid-teens, while Jewish men married when they were a bit older, perhaps around twenty, once they had become somewhat established and could support a wife. So if Joseph and Mary’s experience was typical for the period, he might have been just out of his teens when he married her, and she was likely still a teenager.
We know from the gospels that Joseph was at least still alive when Jesus was twelve years old. Luke tells us how Joseph and Mary brought Jesus to Jerusalem at that age, where he spoke with the teachers of the law in the temple. But Joseph seems to have died by the time Jesus was 30 and began his ministry. The gospels portray Jesus interacting with his mother and brothers at several points during his ministry, but never with Joseph.
We know nothing about how Joseph died, or how old he was when he died, except that if he married at around age 20, and had died by the time Jesus was 30, then he would like have died before age 50. So he would have lived a little shorter time than the average for a man in the Roman Empire, which was the mid-50s. But whether he died of illness or an accident or some other cause, we just don’t know.
So the primary picture we have of Joseph comes from the time around the birth of Jesus. What stays in our minds is that he was a righteous man, unwilling for Mary to experience public disgrace, and that he accepted the challenging role of being the adoptive earthly father of the Son of God. Perhaps it’s best that we think of him mostly in that light.
________________________________________________________________________________
Linguistic Insight: adelphos | Douglas Jacoby
This linguistic study centers around the word adelphos, which is Greek for brother. The following memo was emailed to me. Please read it; my response follows.
I wanted to ask you about Jesus' brothers. I was recently challenged by a Catholic that the Bible never specifically says (there is no proof) Mary had other children than Jesus. When I asked him about the numerous passages that refer to his brothers, he told me to look to the Greek. Apparently (according to Bible Search and Study Tools - Blue Letter Bible) the same word for brother, adelphos {a-del-fos'}, could mean a brother, or a close relative. Here are all the definitions I got:
(1) a brother, whether born of the same two parents or only of the same father or mother;
(2) having the same national ancestor, belonging to the same people, or countryman;
(3) any fellow or man;
(4) a fellow believer, united to another by the bond of affection;
(5) an associate in employment or office;
(6) brethren in Christ
(1) and (2) are the ones that need to be dealt with. Personally, I see these definitions as supporting his view.—Robert Borgersen (Winnipeg)
I would say that these possible meanings of adelphos are all correct. Of course, a word cannot have all possible meanings simultaneously; each word as a semantic range.
Context determines the meaning, much more one's preference of dictionary definition. In the case of Jesus' family, the logical inference from Matthew 1:25 is that Joseph and Mary had normal sexual relations after Jesus was born. The seven or more siblings indicated in Matthew 12 and 23 vindicate this view. We ought to embrace the simplest view, provided there is no biblical reason to reject it.
In the case of the Catholic position that Mary remained a virgin in perpetuity, the meanings of adelphos actually support that position no more than they do the view that his "brothers" were his fellow craftsmen in the family business, as in definition (5). The semantic range in this case will need to be restricted, by context, logic, and cross-checking with other scriptures which delimit the possibilities. Once that is done, frankly speaking, the Roman position is untenable.
Let me illustrate the point before I let you go. Someone says, "She's blue." What does this mean?
(1) Reflecting light at a certain wavelength in the electromagnetic spectrum (such as the villain in the film "Big Fat Liar," whose skin had been dyed).
(2) Oxygen deprived (and therefore the blood being a different color).
(3) Sad, depressed.
(4) Noble (as in "blue blood").
(5) Barely cooked; rarer than rare (as in a blue steak).
Even though (1) is the most common sense of the word in the English language, when said of a person the word "blue" could mean (1), (2), (3) or (4). Sense (5) would be unintelligible, apart from a macabre context of cannibalism, so we will let this one go. In all likelihood, (3) is what "blue" means, although in special circumstances (1), (2) and (4) might also make sense. Once again, to insist that (1) is the true meaning of "blue" in the sentence "She's blue" may be reasonable, but in the absence of certain evidence it is almost certainly unreasonable.
So it is with the Greek word for brother. While adelphos might mean a number of things, it cannot mean all of them at once; context and careful study determine the precise meaning. (Unless, of course, Matthew was trying to be vague or ambivalent, which no one I have read holds to be the case.) The burden of proof is on the one pleading the exception.
Adelphos, the normal Greek word for one's physical brother, is the strongest contender, despite theologies which beg to differ. Were it not for the view of sexuality that was emerging in the second century AD, it is doubtful anyone would have come up with the Catholic or Orthodox interpretation of adelphos as cousin, or stepbrother. (Besides, there is a perfectly good Greek word for cousin; it is anepsios, as in Colossians 4:10.)
Further, these brothers are often found in Mary. Why would Jesus's cousins accompany her? One more fact tells against the traditional Catholic interpretation. Psalm 69, a Messianic psalm, speaks of the rejection by Christ of his brothers (v.8)—not cousins.
How old was Joseph when he married and when he died?
Q. We don’t hear much about Joseph in the Bible. Do we know how old he was when Mary and he married? How old was he when he died, how did he die, and how old was Jesus when he died?We don’t have exact answers to any of these questions because, as you say, we don’t hear much about Joseph in the Bible.
We do know that in New Testament times, Jewish women often married in their mid-teens, while Jewish men married when they were a bit older, perhaps around twenty, once they had become somewhat established and could support a wife. So if Joseph and Mary’s experience was typical for the period, he might have been just out of his teens when he married her, and she was likely still a teenager.
We know from the gospels that Joseph was at least still alive when Jesus was twelve years old. Luke tells us how Joseph and Mary brought Jesus to Jerusalem at that age, where he spoke with the teachers of the law in the temple. But Joseph seems to have died by the time Jesus was 30 and began his ministry. The gospels portray Jesus interacting with his mother and brothers at several points during his ministry, but never with Joseph.
We know nothing about how Joseph died, or how old he was when he died, except that if he married at around age 20, and had died by the time Jesus was 30, then he would like have died before age 50. So he would have lived a little shorter time than the average for a man in the Roman Empire, which was the mid-50s. But whether he died of illness or an accident or some other cause, we just don’t know.
So the primary picture we have of Joseph comes from the time around the birth of Jesus. What stays in our minds is that he was a righteous man, unwilling for Mary to experience public disgrace, and that he accepted the challenging role of being the adoptive earthly father of the Son of God. Perhaps it’s best that we think of him mostly in that light.
________________________________________________________________________________
Linguistic Insight: adelphos | Douglas Jacoby
This linguistic study centers around the word adelphos, which is Greek for brother. The following memo was emailed to me. Please read it; my response follows.
I wanted to ask you about Jesus' brothers. I was recently challenged by a Catholic that the Bible never specifically says (there is no proof) Mary had other children than Jesus. When I asked him about the numerous passages that refer to his brothers, he told me to look to the Greek. Apparently (according to Bible Search and Study Tools - Blue Letter Bible) the same word for brother, adelphos {a-del-fos'}, could mean a brother, or a close relative. Here are all the definitions I got:
(1) a brother, whether born of the same two parents or only of the same father or mother;
(2) having the same national ancestor, belonging to the same people, or countryman;
(3) any fellow or man;
(4) a fellow believer, united to another by the bond of affection;
(5) an associate in employment or office;
(6) brethren in Christ
(1) and (2) are the ones that need to be dealt with. Personally, I see these definitions as supporting his view.—Robert Borgersen (Winnipeg)
I would say that these possible meanings of adelphos are all correct. Of course, a word cannot have all possible meanings simultaneously; each word as a semantic range.
Context determines the meaning, much more one's preference of dictionary definition. In the case of Jesus' family, the logical inference from Matthew 1:25 is that Joseph and Mary had normal sexual relations after Jesus was born. The seven or more siblings indicated in Matthew 12 and 23 vindicate this view. We ought to embrace the simplest view, provided there is no biblical reason to reject it.
In the case of the Catholic position that Mary remained a virgin in perpetuity, the meanings of adelphos actually support that position no more than they do the view that his "brothers" were his fellow craftsmen in the family business, as in definition (5). The semantic range in this case will need to be restricted, by context, logic, and cross-checking with other scriptures which delimit the possibilities. Once that is done, frankly speaking, the Roman position is untenable.
Let me illustrate the point before I let you go. Someone says, "She's blue." What does this mean?
(1) Reflecting light at a certain wavelength in the electromagnetic spectrum (such as the villain in the film "Big Fat Liar," whose skin had been dyed).
(2) Oxygen deprived (and therefore the blood being a different color).
(3) Sad, depressed.
(4) Noble (as in "blue blood").
(5) Barely cooked; rarer than rare (as in a blue steak).
Even though (1) is the most common sense of the word in the English language, when said of a person the word "blue" could mean (1), (2), (3) or (4). Sense (5) would be unintelligible, apart from a macabre context of cannibalism, so we will let this one go. In all likelihood, (3) is what "blue" means, although in special circumstances (1), (2) and (4) might also make sense. Once again, to insist that (1) is the true meaning of "blue" in the sentence "She's blue" may be reasonable, but in the absence of certain evidence it is almost certainly unreasonable.
So it is with the Greek word for brother. While adelphos might mean a number of things, it cannot mean all of them at once; context and careful study determine the precise meaning. (Unless, of course, Matthew was trying to be vague or ambivalent, which no one I have read holds to be the case.) The burden of proof is on the one pleading the exception.
Adelphos, the normal Greek word for one's physical brother, is the strongest contender, despite theologies which beg to differ. Were it not for the view of sexuality that was emerging in the second century AD, it is doubtful anyone would have come up with the Catholic or Orthodox interpretation of adelphos as cousin, or stepbrother. (Besides, there is a perfectly good Greek word for cousin; it is anepsios, as in Colossians 4:10.)
Further, these brothers are often found in Mary. Why would Jesus's cousins accompany her? One more fact tells against the traditional Catholic interpretation. Psalm 69, a Messianic psalm, speaks of the rejection by Christ of his brothers (v.8)—not cousins.
- The Bible doesn’t say that Joseph was a monk !
- Not long ago it was natural and normal to have big families !
- It was not different in Israel !
- At least that’s what the Bible tells us !
- Above all, Joseph restrained from having sex with Mary till she gave birth !
- But not all his life !
- It is not serious !
- Except for the monks !
- Matthew 1:25
[But]
καὶ (kai)
Conjunction
Strong's 2532: And, even, also, namely.
he had no union with
ἐγίνωσκεν (eginōsken)
Verb - Imperfect Indicative Active - 3rd Person Singular
Strong's 1097: A prolonged form of a primary verb; to 'know' in a great variety of applications and with many implications.
her
αὐτὴν (autēn)
Personal / Possessive Pronoun - Accusative Feminine 3rd Person Singular
Strong's 846: He, she, it, they, them, same. From the particle au; the reflexive pronoun self, used of the third person, and of the other persons.
until
ἕως (heōs)
Preposition
Strong's 2193: A conjunction, preposition and adverb of continuance, until.
she gave birth to
ἔτεκεν (eteken)
Verb - Aorist Indicative Active - 3rd Person Singular
Strong's 5088: A strengthened form of a primary teko tek'-o; to produce, literally or figuratively.
a Son.
υἱόν (huion)
Noun - Accusative Masculine Singular
Strong's 5207: A son, descendent. Apparently a primary word; a 'son', used very widely of immediate, remote or figuratively, kinship.
- If I am not wrong, the context is clear!
- Not long ago it was natural and normal to have big families !
- It was not different in Israel !
- At least that’s what the Bible tells us !
- Above all, Joseph restrained from having sex with Mary till she gave birth !
- But not all his life !
- It is not serious !
- Except for the monks !
- Matthew 1:25
[But]
καὶ (kai)
Conjunction
Strong's 2532: And, even, also, namely.
he had no union with
ἐγίνωσκεν (eginōsken)
Verb - Imperfect Indicative Active - 3rd Person Singular
Strong's 1097: A prolonged form of a primary verb; to 'know' in a great variety of applications and with many implications.
her
αὐτὴν (autēn)
Personal / Possessive Pronoun - Accusative Feminine 3rd Person Singular
Strong's 846: He, she, it, they, them, same. From the particle au; the reflexive pronoun self, used of the third person, and of the other persons.
until
ἕως (heōs)
Preposition
Strong's 2193: A conjunction, preposition and adverb of continuance, until.
she gave birth to
ἔτεκεν (eteken)
Verb - Aorist Indicative Active - 3rd Person Singular
Strong's 5088: A strengthened form of a primary teko tek'-o; to produce, literally or figuratively.
a Son.
υἱόν (huion)
Noun - Accusative Masculine Singular
Strong's 5207: A son, descendent. Apparently a primary word; a 'son', used very widely of immediate, remote or figuratively, kinship.
- If I am not wrong, the context is clear!
The Bible doesn't say Joseph was a monk so therefore Catholics must be wrong. That is what you included in the arguments you present. And the obvious bias, claiming the "Roman" position is untenable, same words left over from the hateful times of the reformation. The Bible says all kinds of things that would lead one to believe Mary remained a virgin, which the anti-Catholic arguments so conveniently don't mention, so many have been posted before, but the bottom line is the Bible itself does not specifically state one way or another some definitive statement, as is so often the case. Yet people go to such trouble to try and find something wrong with Catholic teaching, and in this case and so many others it really has little or nothing to do with their idea of salvation. What Satan does not want us to do is focus on own personal relationship with Jesus and emphase what our brothers and sisters in Christ have in common.
- My answer:
- In fact, I should have said even the monks would understand because through history many had and keep having sex with…!
- But it doesn’t matter!
- And it is not a criticism because everywhere men have sex with… even when they are married!
- And even when they are religious leaders!
- You don’t need to belong to a special religion!
- I am just saying that Joseph controlled himself not to have sex with his wife because she was pregnant!
- But there are limits!
- Today people have videos, video games, TV and so on!
- In Africa , and it is not a criticism, they don’t have so many options so they have more children!
- Just to remind you that I said both Catholics and Protestants used to kill themselves including women and old men and children!
- Men will always be animals!
- And men keep doing it for any reason, religion , politics, whatever!
- Now you raised the issue!
- And whenever possible I try to look for information!
- And I try to analyze the issue!
- Think about what happened with circumcision with some pharisees who became Christians!
- The issue was discussed in Jerusalem!
- I always discuss whenever possible even when it is not particularly interesting for me!
- I am interested in the faithful servants of God the Bible tells us about!
- Thus we can learn to know how to get a good relationship with God!
- It doesn’t matter if people belong to such or such religion!
- A discussion is a discussion and I will look for information in the Bible or whatever possible!
- And we learn a lot from history to compare with what the Bible says!
- My answer:
- In fact, I should have said even the monks would understand because through history many had and keep having sex with…!
- But it doesn’t matter!
- And it is not a criticism because everywhere men have sex with… even when they are married!
- And even when they are religious leaders!
- You don’t need to belong to a special religion!
- I am just saying that Joseph controlled himself not to have sex with his wife because she was pregnant!
- But there are limits!
- Today people have videos, video games, TV and so on!
- In Africa , and it is not a criticism, they don’t have so many options so they have more children!
- Just to remind you that I said both Catholics and Protestants used to kill themselves including women and old men and children!
- Men will always be animals!
- And men keep doing it for any reason, religion , politics, whatever!
- Now you raised the issue!
- And whenever possible I try to look for information!
- And I try to analyze the issue!
- Think about what happened with circumcision with some pharisees who became Christians!
- The issue was discussed in Jerusalem!
- I always discuss whenever possible even when it is not particularly interesting for me!
- I am interested in the faithful servants of God the Bible tells us about!
- Thus we can learn to know how to get a good relationship with God!
- It doesn’t matter if people belong to such or such religion!
- A discussion is a discussion and I will look for information in the Bible or whatever possible!
- And we learn a lot from history to compare with what the Bible says!
Yes, the first pope decided that Baptism would replace circumcision. As the Bible says, we are saved through Baptism, and we continue to be saved. Every Christian is born again through the Sacrament of Baptism.
- My answer:
- In fact, I was speaking about Acts 15 and the conclusion in verses 19 and 20 and again in verses 28 and 29:
- Acts 15:19:
[It is] my
ἐγὼ (egō)
Personal / Possessive Pronoun - Nominative 1st Person Singular
Strong's 1473: I, the first-person pronoun. A primary pronoun of the first person I.
judgment,
κρίνω (krinō)
Verb - Present Indicative Active - 1st Person Singular
Strong's 2919: Properly, to distinguish, i.e. Decide; by implication, to try, condemn, punish.
therefore,
Διὸ (Dio)
Conjunction
Strong's 1352: Wherefore, on which account, therefore. From dia and hos; through which thing, i.e. Consequently.
that we should not cause trouble for
παρενοχλεῖν (parenochlein)
Verb - Present Infinitive Active
Strong's 3926: To trouble, cause disturbance to, annoy, harass. From para and enochleo; to harass further, i.e. Annoy.
the
τῶν (tōn)
Article - Genitive Neuter Plural
Strong's 3588: The, the definite article. Including the feminine he, and the neuter to in all their inflections; the definite article; the.
Gentiles
ἐθνῶν (ethnōn)
Noun - Genitive Neuter Plural
Strong's 1484: Probably from etho; a race, i.e. A tribe; specially, a foreign one.
[who] are turning
ἐπιστρέφουσιν (epistrephousin)
Verb - Present Participle Active - Dative Masculine Plural
Strong's 1994: From epi and strepho; to revert.
to
ἐπὶ (epi)
Preposition
Strong's 1909: On, to, against, on the basis of, at.
God.
Θεόν (Theon)
Noun - Accusative Masculine Singular
Strong's 2316: A deity, especially the supreme Divinity; figuratively, a magistrate; by Hebraism, very.
- Acts 15:19:
Instead,
ἀλλὰ (alla)
Conjunction
Strong's 235: But, except, however. Neuter plural of allos; properly, other things, i.e. contrariwise.
we should write
ἐπιστεῖλαι (episteilai)
Verb - Aorist Infinitive Active
Strong's 1989: To write, send by letter to. From epi and stello; to enjoin, i.e. to communicate by letter.
[ and tell] them
αὐτοῖς (autois)
Personal / Possessive Pronoun - Dative Masculine 3rd Person Plural
Strong's 846: He, she, it, they, them, same. From the particle au; the reflexive pronoun self, used of the third person, and of the other persons.
to abstain from
ἀπέχεσθαι (apechesthai)
Verb - Present Infinitive Middle
Strong's 568: To have in full, be far, it is enough. From apo and echo; to have out, i.e. Receive in full; to keep away, i.e. Be distant.
[ food ]
τῶν (tōn)
Article - Genitive Neuter Plural
Strong's 3588: The, the definite article. Including the feminine he, and the neuter to in all their inflections; the definite article; the.
polluted
ἀλισγημάτων (alisgēmatōn)
Noun - Genitive Neuter Plural
Strong's 234: Pollution, perhaps a polluted thing (especially of food). From alisgeo; defilement.
by idols,
εἰδώλων (eidōlōn)
Noun - Genitive Neuter Plural
Strong's 1497: An idol, false god. From eidos; an image; by implication, a heathen god, or the worship of such.
[from]
καὶ (kai)
Conjunction
Strong's 2532: And, even, also, namely.
sexual immorality,
πορνείας (porneias)
Noun - Genitive Feminine Singular
Strong's 4202: Fornication, whoredom; met: idolatry. From porneuo; harlotry; figuratively, idolatry.
[from]
καὶ (kai)
Conjunction
Strong's 2532: And, even, also, namely.
the
τοῦ (tou)
Article - Genitive Neuter Singular
Strong's 3588: The, the definite article. Including the feminine he, and the neuter to in all their inflections; the definite article; the.
meat of strangled animals,
πνικτοῦ (pniktou)
Adjective - Genitive Neuter Singular
Strong's 4156: Strangled (i.e. killed without letting out the blood). From pnigo; throttled, i.e. an animal choked to death.
and
καὶ (kai)
Conjunction
Strong's 2532: And, even, also, namely.
from
τοῦ (tou)
Article - Genitive Neuter Singular
Strong's 3588: The, the definite article. Including the feminine he, and the neuter to in all their inflections; the definite article; the.
blood.
αἵματος (haimatos)
Noun - Genitive Neuter Singular
Strong's 129: Blood, literally, figuratively or specially; by implication, bloodshed, also kindred.
- My answer:
- In fact, I was speaking about Acts 15 and the conclusion in verses 19 and 20 and again in verses 28 and 29:
- Acts 15:19:
[It is] my
ἐγὼ (egō)
Personal / Possessive Pronoun - Nominative 1st Person Singular
Strong's 1473: I, the first-person pronoun. A primary pronoun of the first person I.
judgment,
κρίνω (krinō)
Verb - Present Indicative Active - 1st Person Singular
Strong's 2919: Properly, to distinguish, i.e. Decide; by implication, to try, condemn, punish.
therefore,
Διὸ (Dio)
Conjunction
Strong's 1352: Wherefore, on which account, therefore. From dia and hos; through which thing, i.e. Consequently.
that we should not cause trouble for
παρενοχλεῖν (parenochlein)
Verb - Present Infinitive Active
Strong's 3926: To trouble, cause disturbance to, annoy, harass. From para and enochleo; to harass further, i.e. Annoy.
the
τῶν (tōn)
Article - Genitive Neuter Plural
Strong's 3588: The, the definite article. Including the feminine he, and the neuter to in all their inflections; the definite article; the.
Gentiles
ἐθνῶν (ethnōn)
Noun - Genitive Neuter Plural
Strong's 1484: Probably from etho; a race, i.e. A tribe; specially, a foreign one.
[who] are turning
ἐπιστρέφουσιν (epistrephousin)
Verb - Present Participle Active - Dative Masculine Plural
Strong's 1994: From epi and strepho; to revert.
to
ἐπὶ (epi)
Preposition
Strong's 1909: On, to, against, on the basis of, at.
God.
Θεόν (Theon)
Noun - Accusative Masculine Singular
Strong's 2316: A deity, especially the supreme Divinity; figuratively, a magistrate; by Hebraism, very.
- Acts 15:19:
Instead,
ἀλλὰ (alla)
Conjunction
Strong's 235: But, except, however. Neuter plural of allos; properly, other things, i.e. contrariwise.
we should write
ἐπιστεῖλαι (episteilai)
Verb - Aorist Infinitive Active
Strong's 1989: To write, send by letter to. From epi and stello; to enjoin, i.e. to communicate by letter.
[ and tell] them
αὐτοῖς (autois)
Personal / Possessive Pronoun - Dative Masculine 3rd Person Plural
Strong's 846: He, she, it, they, them, same. From the particle au; the reflexive pronoun self, used of the third person, and of the other persons.
to abstain from
ἀπέχεσθαι (apechesthai)
Verb - Present Infinitive Middle
Strong's 568: To have in full, be far, it is enough. From apo and echo; to have out, i.e. Receive in full; to keep away, i.e. Be distant.
[ food ]
τῶν (tōn)
Article - Genitive Neuter Plural
Strong's 3588: The, the definite article. Including the feminine he, and the neuter to in all their inflections; the definite article; the.
polluted
ἀλισγημάτων (alisgēmatōn)
Noun - Genitive Neuter Plural
Strong's 234: Pollution, perhaps a polluted thing (especially of food). From alisgeo; defilement.
by idols,
εἰδώλων (eidōlōn)
Noun - Genitive Neuter Plural
Strong's 1497: An idol, false god. From eidos; an image; by implication, a heathen god, or the worship of such.
[from]
καὶ (kai)
Conjunction
Strong's 2532: And, even, also, namely.
sexual immorality,
πορνείας (porneias)
Noun - Genitive Feminine Singular
Strong's 4202: Fornication, whoredom; met: idolatry. From porneuo; harlotry; figuratively, idolatry.
[from]
καὶ (kai)
Conjunction
Strong's 2532: And, even, also, namely.
the
τοῦ (tou)
Article - Genitive Neuter Singular
Strong's 3588: The, the definite article. Including the feminine he, and the neuter to in all their inflections; the definite article; the.
meat of strangled animals,
πνικτοῦ (pniktou)
Adjective - Genitive Neuter Singular
Strong's 4156: Strangled (i.e. killed without letting out the blood). From pnigo; throttled, i.e. an animal choked to death.
and
καὶ (kai)
Conjunction
Strong's 2532: And, even, also, namely.
from
τοῦ (tou)
Article - Genitive Neuter Singular
Strong's 3588: The, the definite article. Including the feminine he, and the neuter to in all their inflections; the definite article; the.
blood.
αἵματος (haimatos)
Noun - Genitive Neuter Singular
Strong's 129: Blood, literally, figuratively or specially; by implication, bloodshed, also kindred.
- Acts 15:28:
It seemed good
Ἔδοξεν (Edoxen)
Verb - Aorist Indicative Active - 3rd Person Singular
Strong's 1380: A prolonged form of a primary verb, doko dok'-o of the same meaning; to think; by implication, to seem.
to the
τῷ (tō)
Article - Dative Neuter Singular
Strong's 3588: The, the definite article. Including the feminine he, and the neuter to in all their inflections; the definite article; the.
Holy
Ἁγίῳ (Hagiō)
Adjective - Dative Neuter Singular
Strong's 40: Set apart by (or for) God, holy, sacred. From hagos; sacred.
Spirit
Πνεύματι (Pneumati)
Noun - Dative Neuter Singular
Strong's 4151: Wind, breath, spirit.
and
καὶ (kai)
Conjunction
Strong's 2532: And, even, also, namely.
to us
ἡμῖν (hēmin)
Personal / Possessive Pronoun - Dative 1st Person Plural
Strong's 1473: I, the first-person pronoun. A primary pronoun of the first person I.
not
μηδὲν (mēden)
Adjective - Accusative Neuter Singular
Strong's 3367: No one, none, nothing.
to burden
βάρος (baros)
Noun - Accusative Neuter Singular
Strong's 922: Probably from the same as basis; weight; in the New Testament only, figuratively, a load, abundance, authority.
you
ὑμῖν (hymin)
Personal / Possessive Pronoun - Dative 2nd Person Plural
Strong's 4771: You. The person pronoun of the second person singular; thou.
[with anything] beyond
πλέον (pleon)
Adjective - Accusative Neuter Singular - Comparative
Strong's 4119: Or neuter pleion, or pleon comparative of polus; more in quantity, number, or quality; also the major portion.
these
τούτων (toutōn)
Demonstrative Pronoun - Genitive Neuter Plural
Strong's 3778: This; he, she, it.
essential requirements:
ἐπάναγκες (epanankes)
Adverb
Strong's 1876: Necessarily; as subst: necessary things. Neuter of a presumed compound of epi and anagke; on necessity, i.e. Necessarily.
- Acts 15:29:
[You must] abstain
ἀπέχεσθαι (apechesthai)
Verb - Present Infinitive Middle
Strong's 568: To have in full, be far, it is enough. From apo and echo; to have out, i.e. Receive in full; to keep away, i.e. Be distant.
from food sacrificed to idols,
εἰδωλοθύτων (eidōlothytōn)
Adjective - Genitive Neuter Plural
Strong's 1494: Neuter of a compound of eidolon and a presumed derivative of thuo; an image-sacrifice, i.e. Part of an idolatrous offering.
from blood,
αἵματος (haimatos)
Noun - Genitive Neuter Singular
Strong's 129: Blood, literally, figuratively or specially; by implication, bloodshed, also kindred.
from the meat of strangled animals,
πνικτῶν (pniktōn)
Adjective - Genitive Neuter Plural
Strong's 4156: Strangled (i.e. killed without letting out the blood). From pnigo; throttled, i.e. an animal choked to death.
and
καὶ (kai)
Conjunction
Strong's 2532: And, even, also, namely.
from sexual immorality.
πορνείας (porneias)
Noun - Genitive Feminine Singular
Strong's 4202: Fornication, whoredom; met: idolatry. From porneuo; harlotry; figuratively, idolatry.
You will do
πράξετε (praxete)
Verb - Future Indicative Active - 2nd Person Plural
Strong's 4238: To do, perform, accomplish; be in any condition, i.e. I fare; I exact, require.
well
εὖ (eu)
Adverb
Strong's 2095: Well, well done, good, rightly; also used as an exclamation. Neuter of a primary eus; well.
to avoid
διατηροῦντες (diatērountes)
Verb - Present Participle Active - Nominative Masculine Plural
Strong's 1301: To keep safe, hold fast. From dia and tereo; to watch thoroughly, i.e. to observe strictly, or to avoid wholly.
these things.
ὧν (hōn)
Personal / Relative Pronoun - Genitive Neuter Plural
Strong's 3739: Who, which, what, that.
Farewell.”
Ἔρρωσθε (Errōsthe)
Verb - Perfect Imperative Middle or Passive - 2nd Person Plural
Strong's 4517: Prolongation from rhoomai; to strengthen, i.e. have health.
It seemed good
Ἔδοξεν (Edoxen)
Verb - Aorist Indicative Active - 3rd Person Singular
Strong's 1380: A prolonged form of a primary verb, doko dok'-o of the same meaning; to think; by implication, to seem.
to the
τῷ (tō)
Article - Dative Neuter Singular
Strong's 3588: The, the definite article. Including the feminine he, and the neuter to in all their inflections; the definite article; the.
Holy
Ἁγίῳ (Hagiō)
Adjective - Dative Neuter Singular
Strong's 40: Set apart by (or for) God, holy, sacred. From hagos; sacred.
Spirit
Πνεύματι (Pneumati)
Noun - Dative Neuter Singular
Strong's 4151: Wind, breath, spirit.
and
καὶ (kai)
Conjunction
Strong's 2532: And, even, also, namely.
to us
ἡμῖν (hēmin)
Personal / Possessive Pronoun - Dative 1st Person Plural
Strong's 1473: I, the first-person pronoun. A primary pronoun of the first person I.
not
μηδὲν (mēden)
Adjective - Accusative Neuter Singular
Strong's 3367: No one, none, nothing.
to burden
βάρος (baros)
Noun - Accusative Neuter Singular
Strong's 922: Probably from the same as basis; weight; in the New Testament only, figuratively, a load, abundance, authority.
you
ὑμῖν (hymin)
Personal / Possessive Pronoun - Dative 2nd Person Plural
Strong's 4771: You. The person pronoun of the second person singular; thou.
[with anything] beyond
πλέον (pleon)
Adjective - Accusative Neuter Singular - Comparative
Strong's 4119: Or neuter pleion, or pleon comparative of polus; more in quantity, number, or quality; also the major portion.
these
τούτων (toutōn)
Demonstrative Pronoun - Genitive Neuter Plural
Strong's 3778: This; he, she, it.
essential requirements:
ἐπάναγκες (epanankes)
Adverb
Strong's 1876: Necessarily; as subst: necessary things. Neuter of a presumed compound of epi and anagke; on necessity, i.e. Necessarily.
- Acts 15:29:
[You must] abstain
ἀπέχεσθαι (apechesthai)
Verb - Present Infinitive Middle
Strong's 568: To have in full, be far, it is enough. From apo and echo; to have out, i.e. Receive in full; to keep away, i.e. Be distant.
from food sacrificed to idols,
εἰδωλοθύτων (eidōlothytōn)
Adjective - Genitive Neuter Plural
Strong's 1494: Neuter of a compound of eidolon and a presumed derivative of thuo; an image-sacrifice, i.e. Part of an idolatrous offering.
from blood,
αἵματος (haimatos)
Noun - Genitive Neuter Singular
Strong's 129: Blood, literally, figuratively or specially; by implication, bloodshed, also kindred.
from the meat of strangled animals,
πνικτῶν (pniktōn)
Adjective - Genitive Neuter Plural
Strong's 4156: Strangled (i.e. killed without letting out the blood). From pnigo; throttled, i.e. an animal choked to death.
and
καὶ (kai)
Conjunction
Strong's 2532: And, even, also, namely.
from sexual immorality.
πορνείας (porneias)
Noun - Genitive Feminine Singular
Strong's 4202: Fornication, whoredom; met: idolatry. From porneuo; harlotry; figuratively, idolatry.
You will do
πράξετε (praxete)
Verb - Future Indicative Active - 2nd Person Plural
Strong's 4238: To do, perform, accomplish; be in any condition, i.e. I fare; I exact, require.
well
εὖ (eu)
Adverb
Strong's 2095: Well, well done, good, rightly; also used as an exclamation. Neuter of a primary eus; well.
to avoid
διατηροῦντες (diatērountes)
Verb - Present Participle Active - Nominative Masculine Plural
Strong's 1301: To keep safe, hold fast. From dia and tereo; to watch thoroughly, i.e. to observe strictly, or to avoid wholly.
these things.
ὧν (hōn)
Personal / Relative Pronoun - Genitive Neuter Plural
Strong's 3739: Who, which, what, that.
Farewell.”
Ἔρρωσθε (Errōsthe)
Verb - Perfect Imperative Middle or Passive - 2nd Person Plural
Strong's 4517: Prolongation from rhoomai; to strengthen, i.e. have health.
Judges Chapter 4
- Here we hear about Deborah, the first woman to be a judge in Israel!
- She tells Barak to lead the fight against the enemies of Israel!
- But Barak wants Deborah to come with him!
- So she tells him that God will give the glory to a woman who will kill Sisera the chief of the army of the enemies of Israel!
- It’s interesting to see that God would choose both men and women to have responsibilities in Israel!
- Here we hear about Deborah, the first woman to be a judge in Israel!
- She tells Barak to lead the fight against the enemies of Israel!
- But Barak wants Deborah to come with him!
- So she tells him that God will give the glory to a woman who will kill Sisera the chief of the army of the enemies of Israel!
- It’s interesting to see that God would choose both men and women to have responsibilities in Israel!
Judges Chapter 5
- Deborah and Barak sing a song about what has just happened!
Judges Chapter 6
- Again Israel goes against God!
- And God gives them into the hand of their enemies!
- And as usual they ask for god’s help!
- And God sends his angel to Gideon to tell him to strike their enemies!
- And he receives a sign from God!
- And God tells him to destroy the altar of Baal and build one for God and make an offering!
- The people of the city want to kill him!
- But Joash opposes them!
- And Gideon asks for more signs from God before fighting Israel’s enemies!
- Deborah and Barak sing a song about what has just happened!
Judges Chapter 6
- Again Israel goes against God!
- And God gives them into the hand of their enemies!
- And as usual they ask for god’s help!
- And God sends his angel to Gideon to tell him to strike their enemies!
- And he receives a sign from God!
- And God tells him to destroy the altar of Baal and build one for God and make an offering!
- The people of the city want to kill him!
- But Joash opposes them!
- And Gideon asks for more signs from God before fighting Israel’s enemies!
Judges Chapter 7
- Gideon must fight again Midian!
- But God tells him there are too many soldiers!
- So he wants to reduce their number to show them that God gives them the victory!
- The Israelites who are afraid must go back home!
- 22,000 go back home and 10,000 remain!
- God says it is still too much!
- So he tells Gideon to send the men to drink!
- And those who drink like dogs go back home!
- And those who bend down on their knees to drink remain!
- Thus there are 300 men left!
- It is at night and the enemies are numerous!
- A man tells a dream indicating that Israel will win!
- When Gideon hears the dream and its interpretation, he bows down and worships!
- Then they get nearer the camp of their enemies and they blow their horns and smash large water jars to make a lot of noise!
- And they have torches and they shout the sword of God and of Gideon!
- And the enemies flee!
- And the Israelites chase them!
- And Gideon asks for the Israelites to go and chase their enemies!
- Gideon must fight again Midian!
- But God tells him there are too many soldiers!
- So he wants to reduce their number to show them that God gives them the victory!
- The Israelites who are afraid must go back home!
- 22,000 go back home and 10,000 remain!
- God says it is still too much!
- So he tells Gideon to send the men to drink!
- And those who drink like dogs go back home!
- And those who bend down on their knees to drink remain!
- Thus there are 300 men left!
- It is at night and the enemies are numerous!
- A man tells a dream indicating that Israel will win!
- When Gideon hears the dream and its interpretation, he bows down and worships!
- Then they get nearer the camp of their enemies and they blow their horns and smash large water jars to make a lot of noise!
- And they have torches and they shout the sword of God and of Gideon!
- And the enemies flee!
- And the Israelites chase them!
- And Gideon asks for the Israelites to go and chase their enemies!
Judges Chapter 8
- The men of Ephraim are angry because they were not called to fight against Midian!
- But Gideon tells them God gave them Midian’s princes before so what he did was nothing compared to them!
- And they calm down!
- Gideon and his 300 men are tired but they keep pursuing their enemies!
- And he asks the men of Succoth and of Peruel for bread but they refuse so he tells them that when he has finished what he is doing, he will come after them!
- The men of Ephraim are angry because they were not called to fight against Midian!
- But Gideon tells them God gave them Midian’s princes before so what he did was nothing compared to them!
- And they calm down!
- Gideon and his 300 men are tired but they keep pursuing their enemies!
- And he asks the men of Succoth and of Peruel for bread but they refuse so he tells them that when he has finished what he is doing, he will come after them!
- When he comes back, he captures and interrogates a young man from Succoth and he gets rid of Succoth and Peruel!
- Then the men of Israel wants Gideon to rule over Israel and his descendants!
- But he refuses saying God is the ruler of Israel!
- But then Gideon asks for gold and makes Ephod and all Israel commits spiritual prostitution and it becomes a snare to Gideon and to his household!
- Then Israel has rest for 40 years in the days of Gideon!
- Gideon becomes father of 70 sons because he has many wives!
- As soon as Gideon dies, Israel commits spiritual prostitution!
- And they forget God and Gideon and his household!
- I HAVE NO WORDS TO SPEAK ABOUT SUCH A DEGREE OF SHAME!
- HOW MANY PEOPLE DO REALLY READ THE BIBLE!
- Then the men of Israel wants Gideon to rule over Israel and his descendants!
- But he refuses saying God is the ruler of Israel!
- But then Gideon asks for gold and makes Ephod and all Israel commits spiritual prostitution and it becomes a snare to Gideon and to his household!
- Then Israel has rest for 40 years in the days of Gideon!
- Gideon becomes father of 70 sons because he has many wives!
- As soon as Gideon dies, Israel commits spiritual prostitution!
- And they forget God and Gideon and his household!
- I HAVE NO WORDS TO SPEAK ABOUT SUCH A DEGREE OF SHAME!
- HOW MANY PEOPLE DO REALLY READ THE BIBLE!
a) Many millions of people read the Bible.
b) I think that you are writing about "such a degree of shame", but your message is hidden.
- My answer :
- Good reading !
- When I read the Bible, I want to tell what I learn like a fire which never stops !
- I have heard so many times that the Hebrews were a special people !
- How is it possible to say that ?
- How is it possible to be so blind ?
- And I am not speaking about individuals because there are such incredible examples of faith in the Bible, it is hard to believe when we see what’s on today !
- It is the same with Job !
- How is it possible to speak against Job thinking as if he was living today ?
b) I think that you are writing about "such a degree of shame", but your message is hidden.
- My answer :
- Good reading !
- When I read the Bible, I want to tell what I learn like a fire which never stops !
- I have heard so many times that the Hebrews were a special people !
- How is it possible to say that ?
- How is it possible to be so blind ?
- And I am not speaking about individuals because there are such incredible examples of faith in the Bible, it is hard to believe when we see what’s on today !
- It is the same with Job !
- How is it possible to speak against Job thinking as if he was living today ?
Regarding the Hebrews being a special people, of course they are. The Bible is filled with that truth. You need to read Romans 11, or the whole Bible for that matter.
Here are some facts for you to think about. 1) Jesus was a Jew. 2) The entire Bible, with the sole exception of Luke's gospel, was written by Jews. 3) The church was founded by Jews; Gentiles came in later.
How is it possible for you to be so blind?
Here are some facts for you to think about. 1) Jesus was a Jew. 2) The entire Bible, with the sole exception of Luke's gospel, was written by Jews. 3) The church was founded by Jews; Gentiles came in later.
How is it possible for you to be so blind?
- My answer:
- Thus this thread has the appropriate name!
- Individuals vs the majority!
- Individuals are different from the majority!
- The majority is the same through man’s history!
- If we read carefully the Bible, God has a special relationship with individuals not with the majority!
- The Bible shows us that only individuals are faithful servants of God!
- If you listen carefully to Jesus, he says he has never seen the faith he sees with non Jews compared to Jews!
- You can read the Torah!
- You can read Joshua!
- You can read Judges!
- You can read Samuel!
- You can read Kings!
- You can read Chronicles!
- You can reads Daniel’s prayer for the restoration of Jerusalem!
- You will always get individuals vs the majority!
- Thus this thread has the appropriate name!
- Individuals vs the majority!
- Individuals are different from the majority!
- The majority is the same through man’s history!
- If we read carefully the Bible, God has a special relationship with individuals not with the majority!
- The Bible shows us that only individuals are faithful servants of God!
- If you listen carefully to Jesus, he says he has never seen the faith he sees with non Jews compared to Jews!
- You can read the Torah!
- You can read Joshua!
- You can read Judges!
- You can read Samuel!
- You can read Kings!
- You can read Chronicles!
- You can reads Daniel’s prayer for the restoration of Jerusalem!
- You will always get individuals vs the majority!
I have no idea what you're trying to say. The Jews, a.k.a., the Israelites are God's chosen people. Romans 11:1a, " I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means!"
The book of Exodus alone proves the principle of God's people. Here are just a few references...
Exodus 3:10, "Now go, I am sending you [Moses[ to Pharaoh to bring my people, the Israelites, out of Egypt.”
Exodus 5:1, "Afterward Moses and Aaron went to Pharaoh and said, “Thus says the Lord, the God of Israel: Let my people go, so that they may celebrate a festival to me in the wilderness.”
Exodus 6:7, "I will take you as my people, and I will be your God. You shall know that I am the Lord your God, who has freed you from the burdens of the Egyptians.
Exodus 7:4, "When Pharaoh does not listen to you, I will lay my hand upon Egypt and bring my people the Israelites, company by company, out of the land of Egypt by great acts of judgment.
Exodus 8:1, "Then the Lord said to Moses, “Go to Pharaoh and say to him, ‘Thus says the Lord: Let my people go, so that they may serve me."
Exodus 8:23, "Thus I will make a distinction between my people and your people"
Exodus 9:1, "Then the Lord said to Moses, “Go to Pharaoh and say to him, ‘Thus says the Lord, the God of the Hebrews: Let my people go, so that they may serve me."
Exodus 9:13, "Then the Lord said to Moses, “Rise up early in the morning and present yourself before Pharaoh and say to him, ‘Thus says the Lord, the God of the Hebrews: Let my people go, so that they may serve me."
Exodus 9:17, "You are still exalting yourself against my people by not letting them go."
Exodus 10:3-4, "So Moses and Aaron went to Pharaoh and said to him, “Thus says the Lord, the God of the Hebrews: How long will you refuse to humble yourself before me? Let my people go, so that they may serve me. For if you refuse to let my people go, tomorrow I will bring locusts into your country."
...
Exodus 15:13, "In your steadfast love you led the people whom you redeemed; you guided them by your strength to your holy abode."
Exodus 15:16, "Terror and dread fell upon them; by the might of your arm, they became still as a stone until your people, O Lord, passed by, until the people whom you acquired passed by."
...
Exodus 19:5, "Now, therefore, if you obey my voice and keep my covenant, you shall be my treasured possession out of all the peoples. Indeed, the whole earth is mine,"
So, that is just a selection. There are many ither places in the Bible where clearly and obviously, God has a relationship with His people, not just individuals.
Of course, in the New Covenant, Christians -- believing Jews and Gentiles -- are God's people.
Romans 11:1-2a, "I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. "
Romans 11:11-16, "So I ask, have they stumbled so as to fall? By no means! But through their stumbling salvation has come to the gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. Now if their stumbling means riches for the world and if their loss means riches for gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean!
Now I am speaking to you gentiles. Inasmuch as I am an apostle to the gentiles, I celebrate my ministry in order to make my own people jealous and thus save some of them. For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? If the part of the dough offered as first fruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; and if the root is holy, then the branches also are holy."
Romans 11:11-16, "So I ask, have they stumbled so as to fall? By no means! But through their stumbling salvation has come to the gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. Now if their stumbling means riches for the world and if their loss means riches for gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean!
Now I am speaking to you gentiles. Inasmuch as I am an apostle to the gentiles, I celebrate my ministry in order to make my own people jealous and thus save some of them. For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? If the part of the dough offered as first fruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; and if the root is holy, then the branches also are holy."
Clearly, your claim that "If we read carefully the Bible, God has a special relationship with individuals not with the majority!" is totally false.
The book of Exodus alone proves the principle of God's people. Here are just a few references...
Exodus 3:10, "Now go, I am sending you [Moses[ to Pharaoh to bring my people, the Israelites, out of Egypt.”
Exodus 5:1, "Afterward Moses and Aaron went to Pharaoh and said, “Thus says the Lord, the God of Israel: Let my people go, so that they may celebrate a festival to me in the wilderness.”
Exodus 6:7, "I will take you as my people, and I will be your God. You shall know that I am the Lord your God, who has freed you from the burdens of the Egyptians.
Exodus 7:4, "When Pharaoh does not listen to you, I will lay my hand upon Egypt and bring my people the Israelites, company by company, out of the land of Egypt by great acts of judgment.
Exodus 8:1, "Then the Lord said to Moses, “Go to Pharaoh and say to him, ‘Thus says the Lord: Let my people go, so that they may serve me."
Exodus 8:23, "Thus I will make a distinction between my people and your people"
Exodus 9:1, "Then the Lord said to Moses, “Go to Pharaoh and say to him, ‘Thus says the Lord, the God of the Hebrews: Let my people go, so that they may serve me."
Exodus 9:13, "Then the Lord said to Moses, “Rise up early in the morning and present yourself before Pharaoh and say to him, ‘Thus says the Lord, the God of the Hebrews: Let my people go, so that they may serve me."
Exodus 9:17, "You are still exalting yourself against my people by not letting them go."
Exodus 10:3-4, "So Moses and Aaron went to Pharaoh and said to him, “Thus says the Lord, the God of the Hebrews: How long will you refuse to humble yourself before me? Let my people go, so that they may serve me. For if you refuse to let my people go, tomorrow I will bring locusts into your country."
...
Exodus 15:13, "In your steadfast love you led the people whom you redeemed; you guided them by your strength to your holy abode."
Exodus 15:16, "Terror and dread fell upon them; by the might of your arm, they became still as a stone until your people, O Lord, passed by, until the people whom you acquired passed by."
...
Exodus 19:5, "Now, therefore, if you obey my voice and keep my covenant, you shall be my treasured possession out of all the peoples. Indeed, the whole earth is mine,"
So, that is just a selection. There are many ither places in the Bible where clearly and obviously, God has a relationship with His people, not just individuals.
Of course, in the New Covenant, Christians -- believing Jews and Gentiles -- are God's people.
Romans 11:1-2a, "I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. "
Romans 11:11-16, "So I ask, have they stumbled so as to fall? By no means! But through their stumbling salvation has come to the gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. Now if their stumbling means riches for the world and if their loss means riches for gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean!
Now I am speaking to you gentiles. Inasmuch as I am an apostle to the gentiles, I celebrate my ministry in order to make my own people jealous and thus save some of them. For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? If the part of the dough offered as first fruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; and if the root is holy, then the branches also are holy."
Romans 11:11-16, "So I ask, have they stumbled so as to fall? By no means! But through their stumbling salvation has come to the gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. Now if their stumbling means riches for the world and if their loss means riches for gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean!
Now I am speaking to you gentiles. Inasmuch as I am an apostle to the gentiles, I celebrate my ministry in order to make my own people jealous and thus save some of them. For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? If the part of the dough offered as first fruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; and if the root is holy, then the branches also are holy."
Clearly, your claim that "If we read carefully the Bible, God has a special relationship with individuals not with the majority!" is totally false.
- My answer:
- First do you remember what happened with the golden calf (Exodus 32 specially verses 7 to 10!
- God wants to eliminate Israel and they only escape destruction because of Moses who calms God but they will pay a high price!
- You can have a second look at Deuteronomy 9!
- Second let’s have a look at Numbers 13 and 14, when 12 spies are sent into Canaan!
- Once again God wants to destroy completely Israel and make a great nation out of Moses!
- And once again Moses saves Israel but all will die in the desert and only the youngsters will get into Canaan!
- And Joshua and Caleb who were among the 12 spies!
- And God prevents Israel to get rid of the Canaanites to test them and to use them against Israel when they rebel!
- Third, in Judges, Israel gets all the time in trouble because they commit spiritual prostitution against God!
- And each time, God gets a savior to save them but when he dies, they go away from God again and again and again…!
- Fourth, in Samuel they reject God as their king and they ask for a human king!
- And it will only get worse and worse!
- Fifth, Jerusalem was destroyed twice!
- Sixth, have a look at Daniel’s prayer of confession in Daniel 9 and God’s answer about the restoration of Jerusalem and its DESTRUCTION!
- It seems to be we are not reading the same Bible!
- First do you remember what happened with the golden calf (Exodus 32 specially verses 7 to 10!
- God wants to eliminate Israel and they only escape destruction because of Moses who calms God but they will pay a high price!
- You can have a second look at Deuteronomy 9!
- Second let’s have a look at Numbers 13 and 14, when 12 spies are sent into Canaan!
- Once again God wants to destroy completely Israel and make a great nation out of Moses!
- And once again Moses saves Israel but all will die in the desert and only the youngsters will get into Canaan!
- And Joshua and Caleb who were among the 12 spies!
- And God prevents Israel to get rid of the Canaanites to test them and to use them against Israel when they rebel!
- Third, in Judges, Israel gets all the time in trouble because they commit spiritual prostitution against God!
- And each time, God gets a savior to save them but when he dies, they go away from God again and again and again…!
- Fourth, in Samuel they reject God as their king and they ask for a human king!
- And it will only get worse and worse!
- Fifth, Jerusalem was destroyed twice!
- Sixth, have a look at Daniel’s prayer of confession in Daniel 9 and God’s answer about the restoration of Jerusalem and its DESTRUCTION!
- It seems to be we are not reading the same Bible!
We are both reading the same Bible but only one of us is reading with understanding. God has not rejected His people.
- My answer:
- Maybe English is not clear enough!
- Maybe you should check the original text to understand!
- Maybe our discussion will help people to understand!
- Maybe people will check by themselves what is written in the Bible!
- It only shows that people need to check by themselves what is written!
- My answer:
- Maybe English is not clear enough!
- Maybe you should check the original text to understand!
- Maybe our discussion will help people to understand!
- Maybe people will check by themselves what is written in the Bible!
- It only shows that people need to check by themselves what is written!
Judges Chapter 9
- After the death of Gideon, one of his sons Abimelech proposes to his brotheres to rule over them!
- So they give him 70 pieces of silver!
- He uses the money to hire men and kills all his brothers with one stone except Jotham his youngest brother who hides!
- Then Jotham speaks to the leaders of Shechem!
- He asks them if they acted sincerely in making Abimelech king taking into account what his father did for them!
- Because Abimelech’s mother is Gideon’s slave girl!
- Then Jotham flees!
- And Abimelech rules over Israel for 3 years!
- To avenge the killing of Gideon’s sons, God lets hostility develop between Abimelech and the leaders of Shechem!
- Then they fight together and Abimelech killed all the men of Shechem and destroys the city!
- But when Abimelech attacks the city of thebez!
- There a woman throws a millstone on him and crushes his skull!
- And he asks his attendant to kill him so nobody can say a woman killed him!
- So the attendant kills him!
- Then all the men of Israel go back home!
- Finally God repays Abimelech and the men of Shechem for the evil they had done!
- Thus even if it takes time, God always repays those who do evil!
- When you go against God, he will repay each one according to what he did or not!
- Once again we have a warning!
- When time arrives for God to repay those who deserve it, it is no time to cry or weep!
- And it happens so many times till God finally rejected Israel!
- Remember Daniel’s prayer for the restoration of Jerusalem in spite of its mountain of sins against God!
- And God’s answer: THE RESTORATION OF JERUSALEM AND ITS DESTRUCTION!
- THE MESSAGE SEEMS CLEAR BUT NOT FOR EVERYBODY!
- After the death of Gideon, one of his sons Abimelech proposes to his brotheres to rule over them!
- So they give him 70 pieces of silver!
- He uses the money to hire men and kills all his brothers with one stone except Jotham his youngest brother who hides!
- Then Jotham speaks to the leaders of Shechem!
- He asks them if they acted sincerely in making Abimelech king taking into account what his father did for them!
- Because Abimelech’s mother is Gideon’s slave girl!
- Then Jotham flees!
- And Abimelech rules over Israel for 3 years!
- To avenge the killing of Gideon’s sons, God lets hostility develop between Abimelech and the leaders of Shechem!
- Then they fight together and Abimelech killed all the men of Shechem and destroys the city!
- But when Abimelech attacks the city of thebez!
- There a woman throws a millstone on him and crushes his skull!
- And he asks his attendant to kill him so nobody can say a woman killed him!
- So the attendant kills him!
- Then all the men of Israel go back home!
- Finally God repays Abimelech and the men of Shechem for the evil they had done!
- Thus even if it takes time, God always repays those who do evil!
- When you go against God, he will repay each one according to what he did or not!
- Once again we have a warning!
- When time arrives for God to repay those who deserve it, it is no time to cry or weep!
- And it happens so many times till God finally rejected Israel!
- Remember Daniel’s prayer for the restoration of Jerusalem in spite of its mountain of sins against God!
- And God’s answer: THE RESTORATION OF JERUSALEM AND ITS DESTRUCTION!
- THE MESSAGE SEEMS CLEAR BUT NOT FOR EVERYBODY!
Judges Chapter 10
- And Tola judged Israel for 23 years!
- And Jair judged Israel for 22 years!
- And again Israel committed spiritual prostitution!
- And God gave them into the hands of the philistines and the Ammonites!
- For 18 years!
- And finally they called to God for help!
- But God told them GO AWAY!
- So they removed the foreign gods from their midst and served God!
- And then the Ammonites prepared to fight again against Israel!
- And Tola judged Israel for 23 years!
- And Jair judged Israel for 22 years!
- And again Israel committed spiritual prostitution!
- And God gave them into the hands of the philistines and the Ammonites!
- For 18 years!
- And finally they called to God for help!
- But God told them GO AWAY!
- So they removed the foreign gods from their midst and served God!
- And then the Ammonites prepared to fight again against Israel!
Judges Chapter 11
- And Jephthah was the son of a prostitute!
- And he became a mighty warrior!
- And the elders of Gilead asked Jephthah to become their commander!
- Jephthah made a vow to God!
- If God was to give the Ammonites in Jephthah’s hands, the one coming out of the door of his house would become God’s!
- And Jephthah won and he took the control of 20 cities!
- When he came back home, his daughter came out to meet him!
- She was his only child!
- She would stay a virgin and served God!
- And it became a tradition on Israel, from year to year, the young women of Israel would go to give commendation to Jephthah’s daughter four days in the year!
- And Jephthah was the son of a prostitute!
- And he became a mighty warrior!
- And the elders of Gilead asked Jephthah to become their commander!
- Jephthah made a vow to God!
- If God was to give the Ammonites in Jephthah’s hands, the one coming out of the door of his house would become God’s!
- And Jephthah won and he took the control of 20 cities!
- When he came back home, his daughter came out to meet him!
- She was his only child!
- She would stay a virgin and served God!
- And it became a tradition on Israel, from year to year, the young women of Israel would go to give commendation to Jephthah’s daughter four days in the year!
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