Is Discipleship a requirement for Salvation?

[GodB4Us]

respect, trying to please my Lord and Savior, fear of my God, and obedience to my God are all reasons why I think all believers will be disciples of Jesus and keep his Word. NOT because they think they are earning salvation, NOT because they think they can work their way into heaven.

When you truly believe you put your whole heart and energy towards it. So yes I 100% firmly believe those that claim to believe in Jesus there will have proof in the way they live. This Does not mean they will be perfect. But if we are not producing fruit we are thrown in the fire, the only difference between the sheep that are saved and the goats that go into the fire,, is the sheep did something.

I really do not believe Matthew 25:31-46 pertains to believers now in these latter days before the rapture event. See post # 17

Most say they believe with their lips but their life proves they really do not believe

Not every saved believer will follow Him for why the two in the parable of the Sower that had received the seed, hence Christ, were not fruitful as His disciples but the last one on good soil are.

And that is to be willing and obey His request to trust Him as our Good Shepherd & Friend to help us to follow Him as the just can only live by faith in Him & not by confidence in ourselves by keeping a vow or a commitment to follow Him.

Trust Him to finish His work in us to His glory. Sometimes I need His help to do even that when going through the storms in my life. And He does help me. That is why all our hopes should be on Him for all things, especially following Him.

Galatians 5:1Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage...
5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:...
...1 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

2 Timothy 4:18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Thank you for sharing.

May God bless you & keep you. May He shine His face upon you & give you His peace.

 

[GodB4Us]

For those saints having a hard time in life.... may He keep your hopes and your eyes on Him for everything in following Him as His disciple.

Romans 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[Garee]

Not every saved believer will follow Him for why the two in the parable of the Sower that had received the seed, hence Christ, were not fruitful as His disciples but the last one on good soil are.

And that is to be willing and obey His request to trust Him as our Good Shepherd & Friend to help us to follow Him as the just can only live by faith in Him & not by confidence in ourselves by keeping a vow or a commitment to follow Him.

We live by the faith as a work of God’s labor of love that come from him the author and finisher of our new born again faith. God in us working to both reveal His will and empowering us to do it to his good pleasure. Jesus did it with delight some murmur. Like Jonah a prophet used in comparison with Jesus the prophet in several parables.

It does not change the simplicity of the gospel like that experienced by Jonah who murmured and resited the will but it would seem to make the load lighter if yoked with Christ like with Jesus the son of man He did the will of the father with delight

Philippians 2:13-14 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure Do all things without murmurings and disputings:

 

[GodB4Us]

respect, trying to please my Lord and Savior, fear of my God, and obedience to my God are all reasons why I think all believers will be disciples of Jesus and keep his Word. NOT because they think they are earning salvation, NOT because they think they can work their way into heaven.

Some will believe they are earning their salvation or at least hoping to gain assurances of their salvation by keeping that commitment to follow Christ.

Billy Graham's altar call is if you are not sure you are saved, make a commitment to follow Christ thus the opposite of the gospel he had preached that all those who call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. So all those who believed that came forward were led astray by answering a call that most religious men would adhere to in looking to what they can do to insure they are saved as if keeping that commitment to follow Christ will give believers assurance of salvation.

It does not. Many find it hard and condemn themselves as if not trying hard enough or others would condemn them as such and some will even believe they are not saved because they are unable to keep that commitment to follow Him religiously thus failing to follow Him as His disciples.

Can we finish what was begun with the Spirit by the flesh? That was Paul's message to the Galatians and that was about circumcision, looking to themselves of what they can do by the law to finish what Christ has started in them. They can't because no matter how much the spirit is willing, the flesh is weak.

Even Billy Graham doubted Jesus would receive him because he was not always a good Christian in an interview with Tony Snow. Why would he say that? Billy Graham judged himself by that commitment to follow Christ thus the law by that commitment, is the knowledge of sin for why no one will be justified by that attempt in keeping that commitment to follow Christ.

Tony Snow Interviews Billy Graham

"SNOW: When you get to Heaven, who's going to speak first, you or God?

GRAHAM: When I get there, I'm sure that Jesus is going to say that he
will welcome me. But I think that he's going to say: Well done, our good
and faithful servant. Or he may say: You're in the wrong place.

SNOW: You really worry that you may be told you're in the wrong place?

GRAHAM: Yes, because I have not -- I'm not a righteous man. People put
me up on a pedestal that I don't belong in my personal life. And they
think that I'm better than I am. I'm not the good man that people think
I am. Newspapers and magazines and television have made me out to be a
saint. I'm not. I'm not a Mother Teresa. And I feel that very much."

Is that not discipleship for us to follow Him? Yet He did not say make a vow, an oath, a promise, or a commitment to follow Him. He simply said deny yourself, pick up the cross daily, and follow Me.

Luke 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

So we should consider that Jesus is telling us "HOW" to follow Him by denying ourselves as being able to, pick up the cross daily as in we are dead in Christ as Christ lives in us for how we are following Him.

Galatians 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

If circumcision is the smallest letter of the law and if believers did that, they are entitled to do the whole law, then what is making a man made bondage to God is? The biggest letter of the law; Numbers 30:2 & Ecclesiastes 5:4-7

So resorting to our own power in how we follow Him by keeping that commitment to Christ is NOT discipleship but a departure from Him because that is the same as not trusting Him as our Good Shepherd to help us to follow Him.

Billy Graham's altar call is a saved believer trying to save themselves by keeping that commitment to follow Christ when seeking assurances that they are saved, thus by seeking those assurances, they seek to be justified by keeping that commitment.

It is no wonder why sinners walk away from that altar call or the similar one calling for them to repent of sins before coming to Jesus Christ when they had tried to stop sinning before. How many walked away believing they had to clean up their lives first before coming to Jesus? Jesus came to save sinners from their sins and not just give eternal life.

I am going to stop here and allow you to ask specific questions if you want me to answer whatever it is you are asking about how discipleship has to be separate from the gospel that is being preached otherwise, it would be one very long gospel. It would be called the gospel of repentance from sins rather than the gospel of Jesus Christ. Once you see how we are saved by the grace of God by faith in Jesus Christ, then you may see how we are to follow Him in the same way.

When you truly believe you put your whole heart and energy towards it. So yes I 100% firmly believe those that claim to believe in Jesus there will have proof in the way they live. This Does not mean they will be perfect. But if we are not producing fruit we are thrown in the fire, the only difference between the sheep that are saved and the goats that go into the fire,, is the sheep did something.

I do not believe Matthew 25:31-46 is pertaining to saved believers before the rapture event. Unless you can address it for why you believe His words does apply, I just do not see it when it sounds like the Great white Throne Judgment.

Most say they believe with their lips but their life proves they really do not believe

Many will go astray thinking that they are following Him when they are not religiously, per the previous example and then there are some professing Him in supernatural phenomenon thinking they are serving Him when they are not per Matthew 7:21-23 & 1 Timothy 4:1 & Revelation 2:18-25 for which the consequence is being left behind as cast into the bed of the great tribulation, unless they repent before the Bridegroom comes.

So there are a lot of believers that believe in Him that are saved, but can very well be sincere in thinking they are following Him religiously or supernaturally or even both as Promise Keepers movement and the holy laughter movement joined together in an event in St. Louis Missouri proving it to be the false prophets as gathering grapes of thorns and figs of thistles, and yet they are not abiding in him & His words but in iniquity for why they will be denied by Him Titus 1:16 as former believers would deny him even though in according to this faithful saying, He may deny them but He still abides in former believers 2 Timothy 2:11-13 which testify to the left behind saints & former believers as still saved.

 

[GodB4Us]

We live by the faith as a work of God’s labor of love that come from him the author and finisher of our new born again faith. God in us working to both reveal His will and empowering us to do it to his good pleasure. Jesus did it with delight some murmur. Like Jonah a prophet used in comparison with Jesus the prophet in several parables.

It does not change the simplicity of the gospel like that experienced by Jonah who murmured and resited the will but it would seem to make the load lighter if yoked with Christ like with Jesus the son of man He did the will of the father with delight

Philippians 2:13-14 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure Do all things without murmurings and disputings:

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:...
....11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

This is a confidence that we should have while trusting Him to help us to follow Him as His disciples and yet for those that are not following Him, and get left behind, we should have that same confidence that He will finish His work in them also.

 

[GodB4Us]

For example look at number 3 on the list, they say that being saved is about being forgiven,
while being a disciple means being sanctified or Holy.

Would you say what we build on that foundation ( which was laid by Jesus Christ ) as His disciple would be judged?

1 Corinthians 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

So if a saved believer ( and they are still saved for why that foundation remains and cannot be removed ) gets judged severely with physical death for defiling the temple of God by what he has built on that foundation, what does that say when his spirit is saved in verse 15 above?

But didn't the Bible say that without Holiness no one can see God.

It is why saved believers get left behind when they are involved in iniquity still thus reprobates or disqualified from being partakers of the firstfruits of the resurrection to attend the Marriage Supper in Heaven. If you consider what excommunication by the church is to accomplish, then what the church does symbolically, God will do literally in leaving saints behind to give unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh as he will wage war on the saints left behind.

1 Corinthians 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

And doesn't the Bible say that He who began a good work will bring it to the day of completion?

I believe that also goes for those that defiled the temple of God as He will burn off of that foundation all that defiles the temple of God, even if it means physical death but the spirit is still saved.

We are talking about discipleship and the consequence for not following Him in John 15:1-8 & for not being ready in Luke 12:40-49 for why the Father would scourge them that do not resist sin per Hebrews 12:1-10 so that they may be partakers of His holiness after the great tribulation for when they are resurrected as vessels unto dishonor in His House, vessels of wood and earth, for not departing from iniquity before the rapture, but still in His House.

That is Jesus finishing His work even in those saints and former believers left behind.

 

[Jesus_is_LORD]

respect, trying to please my Lord and Savior, fear of my God, and obedience to my God are all reasons why I think all believers will be disciples of Jesus and keep his Word. NOT because they think they are earning salvation, NOT because they think they can work their way into heaven.

When you truly believe you put your whole heart and energy towards it. So yes I 100% firmly believe those that claim to believe in Jesus there will have proof in the way they live. This Does not mean they will be perfect. But if we are not producing fruit we are thrown in the fire, the only difference between the sheep that are saved and the goats that go into the fire,, is the sheep did something.

Most say they believe with their lips but their life proves they really do not believe

Amen. Amen, Amen.

 

[GodB4Us]

Amen. Amen, Amen.

Do you believe the two that received the seed but did not bear fruit are not really saved in the parable of the Sower? Just wondering why you are saying Amen for.

 

[Dave M]

Do you believe the two that received the seed but did not bear fruit are not really saved in the parable of the Sower? Just wondering why you are saying Amen for.

what does the word say?? those that abide in Jesus will produce fruit, it's really simple, now the amount of fruit varies.


so now what can we learn in the bible about fruit, what does the bible say about those who produce fruit??? what does the bible say about those who do not produce fruit?

It's really simple those that do not produce fruit are thrown into the fire, and those that produce fruit are pruned so they produce more fruit. Scripture repeats this in many places like the sheep and goats, and many other places.

I Am the True Vine​

15 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser.
2 Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
3 Already you are clean because of the word that I have spoken to you.
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me.
5 I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.
6 If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned.

 

[Jesus_is_LORD]

Do you believe the two that received the seed but did not bear fruit are not really saved in the parable of the Sower? Just wondering why you are saying Amen for.

I'm glad we have been able to discuss this topic, I'm going to bow out from here.

I think you've done a great job sharing your thoughts and I feel I've shared my interpretation
as well. Maybe another time I'll return to this discussion, stepping back for now from this topic.

Love and God bless

 

[GodB4Us]

what does the word say?? those that abide in Jesus will produce fruit, it's really simple, now the amount of fruit varies.


so now what can we learn in the bible about fruit, what does the bible say about those who produce fruit??? what does the bible say about those who do not produce fruit?

It's really simple those that do not produce fruit are thrown into the fire, and those that produce fruit are pruned so they produce more fruit. Scripture repeats this in many places like the sheep and goats, and many other places.

I Am the True Vine​

15 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser.
2 Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
3 Already you are clean because of the word that I have spoken to you.
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me.
5 I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.
6 If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned.

But what fire is it for the saved believer not following Him as His disciples that are being cast in?

1 Corinthians 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

How can any saved believer that defiles the temple of God gets his physical body destroyed but his spirit is still saved after going through that fire in that day when he is judged by what he built on that foundation?

Surely defiling the temple of God is hardly following Him as His disciple, right?

Any iniquity on that foundation is a work that denies Him for why He is denying them. You do not have to deny Him verbally as a former believer would; you can be professing Him but be in iniquity for why He would deny you.

Titus 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

2 Timothy 2:11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

It is part of this faithful saying that He still abides in former believers even after denying them so that testifies to the power of God in salvation for those unrepentant saints & former believers left behind in that day.

As it is, @Jesus_is_LORD is unable to see the answers to his OP only because he sees them as patented responses. There are future replies from him I have yet to read, but so far...he is not seeing them.

The consequences for not following Him as His disciples is not loss of salvation because those who break the least of His commandments and teaches others so are still in the kingdom of heaven per Matthew 5:19. No one can say that breaking the least of His commandments and teaches others so are following Him as His disciples, and in truth, they are not, BUT they are called the least in the kingdom of heaven as still being in that kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Same goes for those that do not depart from iniquity as that is hardly following Him as His disciple and yet those who do not depart from iniquity are vessels unto dishonor, vessels of wood and earth, BUT still in His House.

2 Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

Is the prodigal son a disciple? No, he was not as he gave up his inheritance for wild living and although he can never get it back; hence be partakers of the firstfruit of the resurrection because he was not following Him as His disciple, he is still son. This is where the least in the kingdom of heaven comes from that are still in his kingdom of heaven. This is where the vessels unto dishonor in His House comes from as saved believers that did not follow Him as His disciples.

Until you & @Jesus_is_LORD address why there are STILL least in the kingdom of heaven and why there are STILL vessels unto dishonor in His House, you will not see the power of God in salvation for all those that believe in Jesus Christ, even for those that just believe in His name.

Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Those who grieve the Holy Spirit still when the Bridegroom comes, shall be least in the kingdom of heaven just as they will also be vessels unto dishonor BUT still in His House for not being fruitful as His disciples in following Him.

What is being overlooked in the Parable of the Sower is that 2 out of 4 did receive the seed, hence Christ, but were unfruitful whereas one did receive the seed and was fruitful as His disciple. The one that did not receive the seed are unbelievers that heard the Word and believed not the Word, but it should be significant that the two that did receive the seed, hence the Word but were unfruitful still have Christ the seed in them.

 

[GodB4Us]

I'm glad we have been able to discuss this topic, I'm going to bow out from here.

I think you've done a great job sharing your thoughts and I feel I've shared my interpretation
as well. Maybe another time I'll return to this discussion, stepping back for now from this topic.

Love and God bless

Okay, but hopefully you will reconsider since you are talking about the consequences for not following Him as His disciple vs the power of God in salvation for all those that believe in Him, even in His name, to be saved..

The consequences for not following Him as His disciples is not loss of salvation because those who break the least of His commandments and teaches others so are still in the kingdom of heaven per Matthew 5:19. No one can say that breaking the least of His commandments and teaches others so are following Him as His disciples, and in truth, they are not, BUT they are called the least in the kingdom of heaven as still being in that kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Same goes for those that do not depart from iniquity as that is hardly following Him as His disciple and yet those who do not depart from iniquity are vessels unto dishonor, vessels of wood and earth, BUT still in His House.

2 Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

Is the prodigal son a disciple? No, he was not as he gave up his inheritance for wild living and although he can never get it back; hence be partakers of the firstfruit of the resurrection because he was not following Him as His disciple, he is still son. This is where the least in the kingdom of heaven comes from that are still in his kingdom of heaven. This is where the vessels unto dishonor in His House comes from as saved believers that did not follow Him as His disciples.

 

[Garee]

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:...
....11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

This is a confidence that we should have while trusting Him to help us to follow Him as His disciples and yet for those that are not following Him, and get left behind, we should have that same confidence that He will finish His work in them also.

The word disciple does not equal a disciple of Christ.

Discipline. . training in respect to rule. Disciple, student of the master.

There are true apostles as disciples and prophets and false. The false disciples in John 6 walked away faithless “no faith” none that could please our unseen Holy Father

The disciples of the Pharisees with Sadducees that followed Jesus in John 6 rejected all things written in the law and prophets (sola scriptura)

They followed after their fathers’ (oral traditions) of dying mankind, who said in Acts 24 the word of God as it is written was heresy. Puffing up their own selves ’ as venerable ones above all things written in the law and prophets.

When the Son of man Jesus revealed to them that Jewish flesh or gentile flesh profits for zero, they went looking for a another man to replace God not seen

 

[GodB4Us]

The word disciple does not equal a disciple of Christ.

Discipline. . training in respect to rule. Disciple, student of the master.

There are true apostles as disciples and prophets and false. The false disciples in John 6 walked away faithless “no faith” none that could please our unseen Holy Father

The disciples of the Pharisees with Sadducees that followed Jesus in John 6 rejected all things written in the law and prophets (sola scriptura)

They followed after their fathers’ (oral traditions) of dying mankind, who said in Acts 24 the word of God as it is written was heresy. Puffing up their own selves ’ as venerable ones above all things written in the law and prophets.

When the Son of man Jesus revealed to them that Jewish flesh or gentile flesh profits for zero, they went looking for a another man to replace God not seen

No. They were looking for manna from heaven to eat as their fathers did in the wilderness. So they were not understanding that Jesus was referring to His crucifixion which Catholics & others err thinking it was about communion.

Do you believe Jesus is God as the Son of God?

 

[Garee]

No. They were looking for manna from heaven to eat as their fathers did in the wilderness. So they were not understanding that Jesus was referring to His crucifixion which Catholics & others err thinking it was about communion.

Do you believe Jesus is God as the Son of God?

Thoses in John 6 were looking for Manna ? It stopped after 40 years in the wilderness when they reached the tempoarl promised land .


If manna was the case why did it offend them when Jesus said his flesh propfits for nothing .why did his flesh not propfit?

Who said the parble was not about the communion with the father and Son of man our brother in the Lord Jesus .

I believe the father Creator is God and he creates sons of God like Jesus our brother in the Lord.

 

[GodB4Us]

Thoses in John 6 were looking for Manna ? It stopped after 40 years in the wilderness when they reached the tempoarl promised land .

The Jews were asking Jesus for a sign like manna from heaven. When Jesus began talking about Himself being the bread of life that gives life to the world & how to receive that bread of life by coming to & believing in Him, the Jews were still stuck in that mentality of seeing that sign of manna from heaven to eat.

John 6:30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?
31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.
32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
34 Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.
35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.

If manna was the case why did it offend them when Jesus said his flesh propfits for nothing .why did his flesh not propfit?

Because they were still stuck in that mentality of eating manna from heaven as a sign in order to believe in Him when He is right there for them to believe in Him to be saved. And He said this to be clear to His disciples plainly enough that He was not only referring to His crucifixion but His ascension as well for why we are believing in Him.

John 6:61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

He told them to listen to His words about how believing in Him is how they receive the bread of life, hence eternal life as He expounded from His crucifixion to His ascension to His disciples for why we are believing in Him to be saved.

He had told Nicodemus the same earlier about when one is born again which is after His ascension, which is after His crucifixion for whenever any one believes in him to be saved as drawn by the Father to believe in His Son.

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Who said the parble was not about the communion with the father and Son of man our brother in the Lord Jesus .

You just cited Jesus saying that previously.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

He said it earlier again prior to that.

John 6:48 I am that bread of life.
49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

He had told them how to receive the bread of life by believing in Him but because they were stuck in not believing in Him and His words, He went to the metaphor of His crucifixion.

I believe the father Creator is God and he creates sons of God like Jesus our brother in the Lord.

I believe the Word of God as in Jesus Christ is the Creator. The apostle John said so.

John 1:1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

I believe the Word of God had asked the Father for Them to make man in "our" image and after "our" likeness, and so when the Father agreed with the Holy Spirit in compliance, the Word of God created man in His image and after His likeness. That is why when our Creator was crucified on the cross in taking our sins upon Himself, this act was seen in creation as the light of the sun and the full moon was blacked out and Jesus as God, experienced the separation from the Father. That is the awful experience the Son of God as God had experienced in taking our sins unto Himself in giving His life as a ransom for many. Fortunately for us, He has risen from the dead & ascended to Heaven leading the way for us in bring us to God the Father as Jesus is the God Our Redeemer and not just as the God Our Creator.

This prophesy below of the Lord God Our Redeemer speaking is about His water baptism by John the Baptist for when the Father bore witness from Heaven along with the witness of the Holy Ghost as sending God Our Redeemer.

Isaiah 48:16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord God, and his Spirit, hath sent me.
17 Thus saith the Lord, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the Lord thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.

Matthew 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.
16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased

May God cause the increase to enable you to see the Truth in His words as Jesus is the God men had seen in the O.T. that Moses had written about in scriptures.

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.....

46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.
47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

 

[Garee]

The Jews were asking Jesus for a sign like manna from heaven. When Jesus began talking about Himself being the bread of life that gives life to the world & how to receive that bread of life by coming to & believing in Him, the Jews were still stuck in that mentality of seeing that sign of manna from heaven to eat.

John 6:30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?
31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.
32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
34 Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.
35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.

Because they were still stuck in that mentality of eating manna from heaven as a sign in order to believe in Him when He is right there for them to believe in Him to be saved. And He said this to be clear to His disciples plainly enough that He was not only referring to His crucifixion but His ascension as well for why we are believing in Him.

John 6:61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

He told them to listen to His words about how believing in Him is how they receive the bread of life, hence eternal life as He expounded from His crucifixion to His ascension to His disciples for why we are believing in Him to be saved.

He had told Nicodemus the same earlier about when one is born again which is after His ascension, which is after His crucifixion for whenever any one believes in him to be saved as drawn by the Father to believe in His Son.

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


You just cited Jesus saying that previously.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

He said it earlier again prior to that.

John 6:48 I am that bread of life.
49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

He had told them how to receive the bread of life by believing in Him but because they were stuck in not believing in Him and His words, He went to the metaphor of His crucifixion.

I believe the Word of God as in Jesus Christ is the Creator. The apostle John said so.

John 1:1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

I believe the Word of God had asked the Father for Them to make man in "our" image and after "our" likeness, and so when the Father agreed with the Holy Spirit in compliance, the Word of God created man in His image and after His likeness. That is why when our Creator was crucified on the cross in taking our sins upon Himself, this act was seen in creation as the light of the sun and the full moon was blacked out and Jesus as God, experienced the separation from the Father. That is the awful experience the Son of God as God had experienced in taking our sins unto Himself in giving His life as a ransom for many. Fortunately for us, He has risen from the dead & ascended to Heaven leading the way for us in bring us to God the Father as Jesus is the God Our Redeemer and not just as the God Our Creator.

This prophesy below of the Lord God Our Redeemer speaking is about His water baptism by John the Baptist for when the Father bore witness from Heaven along with the witness of the Holy Ghost as sending God Our Redeemer.

Isaiah 48:16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord God, and his Spirit, hath sent me.
17 Thus saith the Lord, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the Lord thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.

Matthew 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.
16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased

May God cause the increase to enable you to see the Truth in His words as Jesus is the God men had seen in the O.T. that Moses had written about in scriptures.

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.....

46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.
47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

They were not asking for Manna. Manna literally meaning “what is it.”?

Manna or called hidden manna in Revelation 2:17 is not part of the conversation in John 6. It was any sign done outwardly. They had no faith working in them by which they could please God not seen.

Manna as food stopped the day, they entered the land of milk and honey. They then had plenty of food then.

Manna again (What is it? ) Manna represented the daily bread, as the will of God .


The phrase “eat my flesh” and “drink” my blood" work together like the Philippian 2:13 verse. God working to both reveal his will (manna) and drink his blood, (empowering) us to do his will to his good pleasure. The giving Christ Spirit life in jeapordy of one own spirit.

signs and wonders (plural)

John 4:48 Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.

What kind sign? (below) Jesus said it a evil generation that does seeks after any outwad sign to wonder or marvel after. We walk by faith the unseen power of God that works in us, with no power of our own.

Again any sign before they willl beleive.

John 6:30They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?

They murumed because his flesh profited as nothing. . .zero .The sign they were seking after hoping it profited for everything


Peter ageeed that Jesus 's flesh profitted for zreo. He prophecied. . to whom shall we go you have the words of eternal life .not the flesh of eternal life .Thier false hope in signs


John 6:63-69 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

Again not you have flesh of eternal life.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Salvation means you are saved, your sins are forgiven, when Jesus returns you will be with Him in paradise.

More than that. Salvation = Being Born again (John 3:3) of the holy spirit BY FAITH (gifted by God - Eph 2:8,9) in the SIN OFFERING of Jesus on the cross, which isn't about "Forgiveness, so much as it's about TOTALLY CLEANSING a person from all SIN, and making them PERFECT (in Christ) before God. it doesn't take BLOOD to "Forgive" that's only a decision of the will - i.e. tearing up the I.O.U. you're holding against the offending party. CLEANSING (Removing) SIN is a different breed of cat. Jesus as our SIN OFFERING made that possible.

Discipleship is following Jesus, denying yourself and taking up your cross.

Since the Born Again Christian is no longer "his own" (1 Cor 16:19,20) but a "Love slave" of Jesus who purchased him with His BLOOD. "Taking up your cross" is a euphamism for "embracing you own death to self". SO for the Christian, "Discipleship" is intrinsic. If you're NOT a Disciple, you're not a Christian either (or a very poorly instructed Christian). Biblically we're to "take HIS YOKE upon us and learn of HIM (Mat 11:29,30) - THAT'S "Discipleship".

There's a lot of discussion about FAITH (what it is and what it isn't) The book of James, provides a "Litmus test" of FAITH - in SHort, if what you CALL FAITH doesn't of it's intrinsic nature PRODUCE GOOD WORKS, then it's not "FAITH"
at all (dead faith).

Spurgeon said that "Any FAiTH that doesn't CHANGE A PERSON, Won't Save them either.

A significant percentage of what is CALLED "FAITH" isn't faith at all, since it doesn't have the attributes found in Heb 11:1

 

[Garee]

More than that. Salvation = Being Born again (John 3:3) of the holy spirit BY FAITH (gifted by God - Eph 2:8,9) in the SIN OFFERING of Jesus on the cross, which isn't about "Forgiveness, so much as it's about TOTALLY CLEANSING a person from all SIN, and making them PERFECT (in Christ) before God. it doesn't take BLOOD to "Forgive" that's only a decision of the will - i.e. tearing up the I.O.U. you're holding against the offending party. CLEANSING (Removing) SIN is a different breed of cat. Jesus as our SIN OFFERING made that possible.

TOTALLY CLEANSING is the work of forgiving they cannot be seperate.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

TOTALLY CLEANSING is the work of forgiving they cannot be seperate.

SUre they can. if you steal $100 from me, I can forgive you simply by an act of MY WILL. BUT YOUR SIN remains on you, regardless of my forgiveness. Same in the OLD Testament. God FORGAVE many people, but until Jesus' SIN OFFERING on the cross, their SIN remained on them. "Forgiveness" has nothing to do with "Cleansing from SIN".