Is Eternal Conscious Torment Really What Scripture Teaches

[Richard Aberdeen]

According to astrophysicist Neil DeGrasse Tyson, there is a certain type of black hole located within dark voids in the universe, where there is no light for many light years in every direction. This type of black hole, according to Tyson, contains an inner "sea of fire", left over from the stars it long ago consumed. According to NASA, the Encyclopedia Britannica and the late Stephen Hawking, among many other scientists, a black hole is a "bottomless pit" that theoretically digs forever.

The Bible says that hell is located in "outer darkness" Matthew 8:12 and is a "bottomless pit" Revelation 9:11, containing a "lake of fire" Revelation 20:14. Many people long questioned how something containing a lake of fire could be located in outer darkness and even more difficult to believe, be a bottomless pit, from which no one can escape. Now we know. Jesus says in Luke 16:26, that no human can pass from heaven to hades or from hades to heaven. Those who mock the Bible invariably, eventually end up eating crow. . .or worse.

Many question whether a loving God would cast someone forever into hell. Such folks rarely pause to consider what our sins cost God, in the sacrifice of his only begotten son. We hear reports of parents weeping at the bedside of their child who has cancer or has been in a horrific accident, crying "if only I could take my child's place!" We have no idea how God must have felt when his only son was nailed to a Roman cross and, we likely never will even begin to grasp what our sins cost God Almighty.

There is great reward for accepting forgiveness for our sins from Jesus. And there is a great penalty for refusing to do so.

 

[Butch5]

The answer is "Yes".

To the headway question?

 

[Butch5]

The whole ETC issue comes down to one point, Is man a spirit/soul or is he a flesh being? If we answer that question, we answer the whole issue. It all boils down to, is man immortal or mortal?

 

[Richard Aberdeen]

To the headway question?

Yes.

According to astrophysicist Neil DeGrasse Tyson, there is a certain type of black hole located within dark voids in the universe, where there is no light for many light years in every direction. This type of black hole, according to Tyson, contains an inner "sea of fire", left over from the stars it long ago consumed. According to NASA, the Encyclopedia Britannica and the late Stephen Hawking, among many other scientists, a black hole is a "bottomless pit" that theoretically digs forever.

The Bible says that hell is located in "outer darkness" Matthew 8:12 and is a "bottomless pit" Revelation 9:11, containing a "lake of fire" Revelation 20:14. Many people long questioned how something containing a lake of fire could be located in outer darkness and even more difficult to believe, be a bottomless pit, from which no one can escape. Now we know. Jesus says in Luke 16:26, that no human can pass from heaven to hades or from hades to heaven. Those who mock the Bible invariably, eventually end up eating crow. . .or worse.

Many question whether a loving God would cast someone forever into hell. Such folks rarely pause to consider what our sins cost God, in the sacrifice of his only begotten son. We hear reports of parents weeping at the bedside of their child who has cancer or has been in a horrific accident, crying "if only I could take my child's place!" We have no idea how God must have felt when his only son was nailed to a Roman cross and, we likely never will even begin to grasp what our sins cost God Almighty.

There is great reward for accepting forgiveness for our sins from Jesus. And there is a great penalty for refusing to do so.

 

[KingJ]

The whole ETC issue comes down to one point, Is man a spirit/soul or is he a flesh being? If we answer that question, we answer the whole issue. It all boils down to, is man immortal or mortal?

Butch, I don't think the debate is quite that simple. ETC doesn't teach that man is inherently immortal. Scripture says God alone possesses immortality inherently (1 Tim. 6:16). The traditional view is that God, who created all things, is also able to sustain both the righteous and the wicked forever according to His purposes.

So I don't think the real question is whether man is naturally mortal or immortal. The question is whether Scripture teaches that God will ultimately annihilate the wicked or continue their conscious existence under judgment.

That's why passages like Matthew 25:46, Luke 16:19–31, Revelation 14:10–11, and Revelation 20:10–15 are so important. They describe ongoing punishment rather than extinction. For me, the debate has to be settled by what those passages actually say, rather than by starting with an assumption about human nature.

 

[KingJ]

According to astrophysicist Neil DeGrasse Tyson, there is a certain type of black hole located within dark voids in the universe, where there is no light for many light years in every direction. This type of black hole, according to Tyson, contains an inner "sea of fire", left over from the stars it long ago consumed. According to NASA, the Encyclopedia Britannica and the late Stephen Hawking, among many other scientists, a black hole is a "bottomless pit" that theoretically digs forever.

The Bible says that hell is located in "outer darkness" Matthew 8:12 and is a "bottomless pit" Revelation 9:11, containing a "lake of fire" Revelation 20:14. Many people long questioned how something containing a lake of fire could be located in outer darkness and even more difficult to believe, be a bottomless pit, from which no one can escape. Now we know. Jesus says in Luke 16:26, that no human can pass from heaven to hades or from hades to heaven. Those who mock the Bible invariably, eventually end up eating crow. . .or worse.

Many question whether a loving God would cast someone forever into hell. Such folks rarely pause to consider what our sins cost God, in the sacrifice of his only begotten son. We hear reports of parents weeping at the bedside of their child who has cancer or has been in a horrific accident, crying "if only I could take my child's place!" We have no idea how God must have felt when his only son was nailed to a Roman cross and, we likely never will even begin to grasp what our sins cost God Almighty.

There is great reward for accepting forgiveness for our sins from Jesus. And there is a great penalty for refusing to do so.

Richard, I really enjoyed reading this. I think your point about people questioning God's judgment while rarely considering what our sin cost Him at the cross is especially powerful. That's something every Christian should reflect on.

 

[NBTT]

The whole ETC issue comes down to one point

Googled ETC and it told me: "Eternal tonscious corment"

I've seen good biblical arguments both ways but I lean towards ECT. When I'm undecided on unclear issues I just trust God.

 

[Richard Aberdeen]

Butch, I don't think the debate is quite that simple. ETC doesn't teach that man is inherently immortal. Scripture says God alone possesses immortality inherently (1 Tim. 6:16). The traditional view is that God, who created all things, is also able to sustain both the righteous and the wicked forever according to His purposes.

So I don't think the real question is whether man is naturally mortal or immortal. The question is whether Scripture teaches that God will ultimately annihilate the wicked or continue their conscious existence under judgment.

That's why passages like Matthew 25:46, Luke 16:19–31, Revelation 14:10–11, and Revelation 20:10–15 are so important. They describe ongoing punishment rather than extinction. For me, the debate has to be settled by what those passages actually say, rather than by starting with an assumption about human nature.

No, the whole issue comes down to what Jesus says, which is that souls in hell will be eternally tormented. Obviously, they will have conscious awareness or else, they couldn't be in torment.

Both the Bible and modern science agree that we have an "inner self" or "Mind" or "soul" and we have conscious awareness, which is separate and distinct from the brain. Modern science has very little understanding of this, which means you also have very little understanding of it and, likewise, so do I have very little understanding of "inner self" or "Mind" or "soul" and conscious awareness. Given current knowledge, human beings know very little compared to what we don't know.

Recently, science discovered that the heart dictates feelings to the brain and, not the other way around as people long have assumed. Likewise, what scientists typically call "Mind" involves several if not all human organs and is not isolated to the brain as long previously assumed. Most modern people have been taught it's all in our brain and so we tend to think that way, even though many scientists who study such things no longer believe that is accurate. Our brain is certainly involved, but so is our heart and spleen and general nervous system and probably other organs as well.

 

[Butch5]

Butch, I don't think the debate is quite that simple. ETC doesn't teach that man is inherently immortal. Scripture says God alone possesses immortality inherently (1 Tim. 6:16). The traditional view is that God, who created all things, is also able to sustain both the righteous and the wicked forever according to His purposes.

So I don't think the real question is whether man is naturally mortal or immortal. The question is whether Scripture teaches that God will ultimately annihilate the wicked or continue their conscious existence under judgment.

That's why passages like Matthew 25:46, Luke 16:19–31, Revelation 14:10–11, and Revelation 20:10–15 are so important. They describe ongoing punishment rather than extinction. For me, the debate has to be settled by what those passages actually say, rather than by starting with an assumption about human nature.

Actually, if you poll Christians you'll find that the majority believe they are immortal.

Those passages are addressed and answered in the book. The Biggest Problem ETC faces is whether or not God promised eternal life to the wicked. We have nothing in Scripture that suggests such a thing. That begs the question, if not from God, from where do the wicked get eternal life. Also, if everyone, righteous and wicked get eternal life why did God give it as a promise to believers? The contrast throughout Scripture is Eternal life or perish.

These passages you mentioned are easily answered. As I said, they are in the book. Firstly, In aionios, doesn't mean eternal. So Mathew 25:46 should be translated, age enduring punishment. Punishment is a noun, not a verb. It doesn't say age enduring punishing, or eternal punishing. It's a noun. Whatever the punishment is it's age enduring.

Rev 14
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with hfire and hbrimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. 12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

These people are alive, not dead. They are at the same location as the saints. The would translate "here" means, in this place.
The phrase “smoke rising forever and ever” is not specifically a Jewish idiom, but rather draws on symbolic language deeply rooted in Old Testament imagery that carries particular significance within Jewish and Christian tradition. The smoke is using Old Testament symbolic language.

"Smoke functions in Hebrew Scripture across multiple symbolic registers: it represents transience and impermanence, manifests God’s powerful presence, and particularly expresses divine wrath.1 When the phrase appears in Revelation 14:11—describing the torment of those who worship the beast—it operates within this established symbolic framework rather than as a colloquial expression.

Revelation 19:3 contains imagery reminiscent of Judges 20:40, where smoke from destruction “goes up forever and ever” alongside the jubilant cries of the saints, evoking the image of a whole burnt offering pleasing to the Lord.1 This connection suggests the phrase carries cultic and covenantal resonance rather than functioning as an everyday idiom.

Importantly, Revelation communicates meaning through apocalyptic code-words and ciphers drawn primarily from the Old Testament within Second Temple Judaism, and the imagery works through parallels and contrasts rather than literal depiction.2 The perpetual rising smoke symbolizes enduring consequences and divine judgment, not a literal meteorological phenomenon. The phrase’s power lies in its evocation of Old Testament judgment scenes and sacrificial imagery, making it a theologically charged symbolic expression rather than an idiomatic turn of phrase in the modern sense."

1. 1
   G. Chamberlain, “Smoke; Smoking,” in The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, Revised, ed. Geoffrey W. Bromiley (Wm. B. Eerdmans, 1979–1988), 4:554.
2. 2
   Edward William Fudge, The Fire That Consumes: A Biblical and Historical Study of the Doctrine of Final Punishment (Eugene, OR: Cascade Books, 2011), 240.

Why is Rev 20:10-15 an issue.

 

[Richard Aberdeen]

Actually, if you poll Christians you'll find that the majority believe they are immortal.

Those passages are addressed and answered in the book. The Biggest Problem ETC faces is whether or not God promised eternal life to the wicked. We have nothing in Scripture that suggests such a thing. That begs the question, if not from God, from where do the wicked get eternal life. Also, if everyone, righteous and wicked get eternal life why did God give it as a promise to believers? The contrast throughout Scripture is Eternal life or perish.

These passages you mentioned are easily answered. As I said, they are in the book. Firstly, In aionios, doesn't mean eternal. So Mathew 25:46 should be translated, age enduring punishment. Punishment is a noun, not a verb. It doesn't say age enduring punishing, or eternal punishing. It's a noun. Whatever the punishment is it's age enduring.

Rev 14
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with hfire and hbrimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. 12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

These people are alive, not dead. They are at the same location as the saints. The would translate "here" means, in this place.
The phrase “smoke rising forever and ever” is not specifically a Jewish idiom, but rather draws on symbolic language deeply rooted in Old Testament imagery that carries particular significance within Jewish and Christian tradition. The smoke is using Old Testament symbolic language.

"Smoke functions in Hebrew Scripture across multiple symbolic registers: it represents transience and impermanence, manifests God’s powerful presence, and particularly expresses divine wrath.1 When the phrase appears in Revelation 14:11—describing the torment of those who worship the beast—it operates within this established symbolic framework rather than as a colloquial expression.

Revelation 19:3 contains imagery reminiscent of Judges 20:40, where smoke from destruction “goes up forever and ever” alongside the jubilant cries of the saints, evoking the image of a whole burnt offering pleasing to the Lord.1 This connection suggests the phrase carries cultic and covenantal resonance rather than functioning as an everyday idiom.

Importantly, Revelation communicates meaning through apocalyptic code-words and ciphers drawn primarily from the Old Testament within Second Temple Judaism, and the imagery works through parallels and contrasts rather than literal depiction.2 The perpetual rising smoke symbolizes enduring consequences and divine judgment, not a literal meteorological phenomenon. The phrase’s power lies in its evocation of Old Testament judgment scenes and sacrificial imagery, making it a theologically charged symbolic expression rather than an idiomatic turn of phrase in the modern sense."

1. 1
   G. Chamberlain, “Smoke; Smoking,” in The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, Revised, ed. Geoffrey W. Bromiley (Wm. B. Eerdmans, 1979–1988), 4:554.
2. 2
   Edward William Fudge, The Fire That Consumes: A Biblical and Historical Study of the Doctrine of Final Punishment (Eugene, OR: Cascade Books, 2011), 240.

Why is Rev 20:10-15 an issue.

Our physical bodies are not eternal; we all die like Genesis says, dust returns to dust. But our soul lives forever, either in heaven or eternal torment. As I patiently tried to explain in my other post, what science calls "Mind", "inner self" or "soul" is only very poorly understood. Conscious awareness remains one of science's greatest mysteries, as does the origin of life, which no one has rationally explained apart from Eternal Creator--Jesus is the only one in history who rationally explained our existence: "before Abraham was, I AM." Eternal Creator is the only rational explanation for the existence of universal reality.

 

[KingJ]

No, the whole issue comes down to what Jesus says, which is that souls in hell will be eternally tormented. Obviously, they will have conscious awareness or else, they couldn't be in torment.

I don't disagree with you. The point being made is that God is God and we are not. If He willed it, He could annihilate us all. Even if in heaven. We live by His mercy and His promises.

 

[Richard Aberdeen]

I don't disagree with you. The point being made is that God is God and we are not. If He willed it, He could annihilate us all. Even if in heaven. We live by His mercy and His promises.

According to the Bible, God does not want to condemn anyone, nor does he want to condemn us to torment in hell. But apart from forgiveness from Jesus, our sins remain uncovered and God "cannot look upon sin."

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance." -- 2nd Peter 3:9

"For God did not send his son into the world so that he might judge the people, but that the people through him, might be saved." -- John 3:17

We all have to choose. No one can do it for us.

 

[KingJ]

According to the Bible, God does not want to condemn anyone, nor does he want to condemn us to torment in hell. But apart from forgiveness from Jesus, our sins remain uncovered and God "cannot look upon sin."

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance." -- 2nd Peter 3:9

"For God did not send his son into the world so that he might judge the people, but that the people through him, might be saved." -- John 3:17

We all have to choose. No one can do it for us.

This post is unrelated to what I posted. I think you posted it in the wrong thread?

I will reply to it in your thread.