Is God considered a "just God" if he created man knowing that man would fall?
- Thread starter Curtis
- Start date
God is just in what He did. It's all about free will, God's gives us the choice to follow Him. Without that choice we would be nothing more than robots. So man had to learn his lesson on free will with a huge price.
The "fix" was immediate!
Genesis 3:21
" Unto Adam also and to his wife did the Lord God make coats of skins, and clothed them."
These animals shed their blood to clothe Adam and Eve. This is the very beginning of God's redemption plan for man.
This is the introduction of Christ as "Suffering Lamb of God" led to the slaughter for mankind.
It is through the shedding of blood that sins are forgiven and atonement made, a tough lesson for them to learn.
Lev. 17:11
For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.
B-A-C
Loyal
- Joined
- Dec 18, 2008
- Messages
- 11,227
Eph 1:4; just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love
Heb 4:3; For we who have believed enter that rest, just as He has said, "AS I SWORE IN MY WRATH, THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST," although His works were finished from the foundation of the world.
Heb 4:3; For we who have believed enter that rest, just as He has said, "AS I SWORE IN MY WRATH, THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST," although His works were finished from the foundation of the world.
Curtis
Loyal
- Joined
- Mar 27, 2015
- Messages
- 4,469
This is one of the questions many unbelievers ask, "God is unjust if he created man knowing in advance that he would fall"
What they (unbelievers, and probably most believers) do not understand is before God created man he provided "the fix" for fallen man.
Eph 1:4 Even before he made the world, God loved us and chose us in Christ to be holy and without fault in his eyes.
2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
Rev 13:8 And all the people who belong to this world worshiped the beast. They are the ones whose names were not written in the Book of Life that belongs to the Lamb who was slaughtered before the world was made.
God himself lives by his own laws.
Jas 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
Would God have sinned if he did not provide a "fix" for man whom he knew in adavance would fall?
Curtis
Loyal
- Joined
- Mar 27, 2015
- Messages
- 4,469
I was just posting the same scriptures, but you beat me to it.
Amen Brother! Before the foundation of the world it was already a done deal.
1 Peter 1:18-20
Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
Curtis
Loyal
- Joined
- Mar 27, 2015
- Messages
- 4,469
Conciliation is God not holding man's sins against him by providing a "fix" for man's downfall. This is evidenced by these scriptures...
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Rom 5:8 But God showed his great love for us by sending Christ to die for us while we were still sinners.
But man must accept through faith (Which God also gives) the fix that God provided before man is completely "reconciled" unto God which Good also knew in advance who they would be thus making "peace" between man and God.
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Rom 5:8 But God showed his great love for us by sending Christ to die for us while we were still sinners.
But man must accept through faith (Which God also gives) the fix that God provided before man is completely "reconciled" unto God which Good also knew in advance who they would be thus making "peace" between man and God.
Bob Carabbio
Active
- Joined
- Aug 21, 2019
- Messages
- 842
The plan of salvation was already in place before the creation.
Curtis
Loyal
- Joined
- Mar 27, 2015
- Messages
- 4,469
The "mystery" of how God would save his man who had not yet fallen and who had not been created yet was a "secret" that no one knew about, not even the angels knew about. It was a trap set by God against satan and his group. There are glimpses of this mystery throughout the scriptures. One of them is found in the Gospel of John......
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
In him who? In him Jesus the Word of God there was life, and the life that was in the Word was the light of men!
Men were living in the Word (Jesus Christ, in Christ) that was in the beginning! Nobody understood this at all.
Eph 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
God now is unveiling this great mystery to his Church to those who are mature enough to understand it.
1Co 2:6 Yet when we are among the full-grown (spiritually mature Christians who are ripe in understanding), we do impart a [higher] wisdom (the knowledge of the divine plan previously hidden); but it is indeed not a wisdom of this present age or of this world nor of the leaders and rulers of this age, who are being brought to nothing and are doomed to pass away.
1Co 2:7 But rather what we are setting forth is a wisdom of God once hidden [from the human understanding] and now revealed to us by God--[that wisdom] which God devised and decreed before the ages for our glorification [to lift us into the glory of His presence].
1Co 2:8 None of the rulers of this age or world perceived and recognized and understood this, for if they had, they would never have crucified the Lord of glory. (AMP)
Satan had no foggy idea in what God had done in providing a fix for his fallen man before the world began, which ended up destroying his (satan
) kingdom.
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
In him who? In him Jesus the Word of God there was life, and the life that was in the Word was the light of men!
Men were living in the Word (Jesus Christ, in Christ) that was in the beginning! Nobody understood this at all.
Eph 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
God now is unveiling this great mystery to his Church to those who are mature enough to understand it.
1Co 2:6 Yet when we are among the full-grown (spiritually mature Christians who are ripe in understanding), we do impart a [higher] wisdom (the knowledge of the divine plan previously hidden); but it is indeed not a wisdom of this present age or of this world nor of the leaders and rulers of this age, who are being brought to nothing and are doomed to pass away.
1Co 2:7 But rather what we are setting forth is a wisdom of God once hidden [from the human understanding] and now revealed to us by God--[that wisdom] which God devised and decreed before the ages for our glorification [to lift us into the glory of His presence].
1Co 2:8 None of the rulers of this age or world perceived and recognized and understood this, for if they had, they would never have crucified the Lord of glory. (AMP)
Satan had no foggy idea in what God had done in providing a fix for his fallen man before the world began, which ended up destroying his (satan
) kingdom.
lentz
Active
- Joined
- May 7, 2023
- Messages
- 1,607
Before the very foundation of the world. Before Genesis 1:1
Sounds like predestination and not freewill to me
Curtis
Loyal
- Joined
- Mar 27, 2015
- Messages
- 4,469
It is God’s plan that He has foreknown and predestined, not the individual conformity of free wills to the plan. He has called all people and all are free to accept or reject the call (Jhn 3:16; 1Ti 2:4; 2Pe 3:9; Rev 22:17). All who do accept, He has foreknown and predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son that His Son might be the firstborn among many brethren (Rom 8:29).
Saul might be a good example of how acceptance or rejection work. By the late Bryan Huie ...
"What is God really trying to accomplish here on earth? This is a question that religious men and women have pondered since the dawn of creation. Paul tells us that the mystery of God was hidden throughout all the ages and generations from the time of creation until the appearance of the Messiah. After his first coming, however, the heavenly Father revealed this mystery to His saints (Col. 1:26). Yet how well do those who profess to have accepted Yeshua the Messiah (Jesus Christ) really understand God's mysterious plan?
Most Christian denominations believe that they have a good grasp of the mystery of God the Father. They think He is saving those who, of their own free will, accept the sacrifice of His son Yeshua. Conversely, they believe that God will condemn and eternally punish those who do not accept that sacrifice (either because of conscious rejection or ignorance).
Under that basic premise, most of Christianity has implicitly decided that God is going to end up saving just a minority of humanity, since even the most optimistic assessment can only conclude that most people throughout history have NOT accepted the saving sacrifice of Yeshua. Yet does this understanding agree with what God says He will do in His Word? In this article we will examine what the Bible truly teaches about this misunderstood mystery of God that even now so few really comprehend.
In order to lay out the mystery of God, we must first understand some things about God that the Father reveals of Himself. God tells us quite a bit about Himself and His abilities in the Bible."
Mystery of God - Predestination or Freewill? - Here a little, there a little - Commentary
The heavenly Father is omnipresent, omniscient and omnipotent. These traits impact predestination and free will and teach us of His plan for mankind.
herealittletherealittle.net
Bill Taylor
Active
- Joined
- Feb 8, 2016
- Messages
- 318
The thing one learns with a complete Bible study, led by Ruah, the Holy Spirit is that 'Omnipresent' means much more than just everywhere at the same time. Yahova, having created the Time/Space Continuum we exist in places Him in another realm, completely separate from ours but including ours.Sounds like predestination and not freewill to me
From my 33-plus years of study, I have learned that our Elohim is in our presence, now and is with us in the future and the past. I do not use the common movie metaphor as an example to explain this concept because I find it lacking.
I, also, find this beyond the realm of my ability to understand, causing this to be one of the things we must, simply, accept and believe, much the same as I accept Yahova is.
Beetow
Active
- Joined
- Apr 19, 2020
- Messages
- 2,538
~
If true that God can see the future: then He knew in advance that Adam would
taste the forbidden fruit (a tasting that God could've easily prevented) and He
knew in advance that He would regret creating mankind, and He knew in advance
that He would be destroying much of His handiwork with a global flood, and He
knew in advance that He'd be incinerating Sodom and Gomorrah, and He knew in
advance that mankind would perpetually slaughter itself by one war after another,
and He knew in advance that large numbers of people would end up in the lake of
fire depicted at Rev 20:11-15; yet God went ahead and created mankind anyway.
That all has the effect of leading me to not only question God's sanity; but also makes
me quite leery of Him as a serious hazard just like the folks in North Korea are leery
of Kim Jong-Un.
* You know: the more I study the Bible, the more I get the uneasy feeling that the
creation of the cosmos-- all of its forms of life, matter, and energy --wasn't the
ultimate supremacy's idea. In other words: it seems increasingly possible to me
that the mysterious entity sequestered in 1Tim 6:16's environment of light-- that
no man can approach, nor has seen, nor can see, --wouldn't have done it had not
someone close urged Him to.
_
If true that God can see the future: then He knew in advance that Adam would
taste the forbidden fruit (a tasting that God could've easily prevented) and He
knew in advance that He would regret creating mankind, and He knew in advance
that He would be destroying much of His handiwork with a global flood, and He
knew in advance that He'd be incinerating Sodom and Gomorrah, and He knew in
advance that mankind would perpetually slaughter itself by one war after another,
and He knew in advance that large numbers of people would end up in the lake of
fire depicted at Rev 20:11-15; yet God went ahead and created mankind anyway.
That all has the effect of leading me to not only question God's sanity; but also makes
me quite leery of Him as a serious hazard just like the folks in North Korea are leery
of Kim Jong-Un.
* You know: the more I study the Bible, the more I get the uneasy feeling that the
creation of the cosmos-- all of its forms of life, matter, and energy --wasn't the
ultimate supremacy's idea. In other words: it seems increasingly possible to me
that the mysterious entity sequestered in 1Tim 6:16's environment of light-- that
no man can approach, nor has seen, nor can see, --wouldn't have done it had not
someone close urged Him to.
_
Bill Taylor
Active
- Joined
- Feb 8, 2016
- Messages
- 318
Please bear with me and forgive me for my direct-to-the-point approach. I was where you are, some fifty years ago. Your view of Yahova is skewed because you do not have the presence of Ruah (Holy Spirit) to interpret the Scriptures to you. You see, to understand what I will say takes the Indwelling of Ruah before it makes any sense and I say this from experience.
The scriptures are incorrectly divided into chapters and verses. This was done by men and to enable study, it is the best thing man has done but it is also the worst thing that ever happened to Yahova's Word at the same time. The Word is written in much the same fashion as a love letter is composed and it is not, in its original form, divided into verses. And properly comprehended, it must be studied in its entirety by an individual who submits to Ruah for his or her understanding. The Bible is, from Genesis 1:1 thru the very last Amen of Revelation 22, a single book of one context, Salvation!
Yahova could have created Human Robots that did everything He meant for them to do, without question. Would that have provided Him with the mutual love he seeks? Of course not. Obedience can be boring except it is given in love. I pray this helps you to understand and that you do as I did and seek after Yahova. When that is done from a pure heart the indwelling of Ruah begins.
The scriptures are incorrectly divided into chapters and verses. This was done by men and to enable study, it is the best thing man has done but it is also the worst thing that ever happened to Yahova's Word at the same time. The Word is written in much the same fashion as a love letter is composed and it is not, in its original form, divided into verses. And properly comprehended, it must be studied in its entirety by an individual who submits to Ruah for his or her understanding. The Bible is, from Genesis 1:1 thru the very last Amen of Revelation 22, a single book of one context, Salvation!
Yahova could have created Human Robots that did everything He meant for them to do, without question. Would that have provided Him with the mutual love he seeks? Of course not. Obedience can be boring except it is given in love. I pray this helps you to understand and that you do as I did and seek after Yahova. When that is done from a pure heart the indwelling of Ruah begins.
God is always just, and His love is the evidence of His righteousness.
Etvery sentence in scripture was spoken through the Holy Spirit in Eternity, and every sentence contains His unique signature: love.
Even though God may know all things from beginning to end, does that mean we shouldn't pray? Not at all. Does it mean we should fall back? Not one bit.
When God said 'Let there be light,' the same words were spoken to you in the moment you read them in faith (with your heart).
Sometimes our prayers are answered even before we pray, and we don't know it yet, but God is faithful.
Etvery sentence in scripture was spoken through the Holy Spirit in Eternity, and every sentence contains His unique signature: love.
Even though God may know all things from beginning to end, does that mean we shouldn't pray? Not at all. Does it mean we should fall back? Not one bit.
When God said 'Let there be light,' the same words were spoken to you in the moment you read them in faith (with your heart).
Sometimes our prayers are answered even before we pray, and we don't know it yet, but God is faithful.
KingJ
Active
- Joined
- Mar 31, 2015
- Messages
- 4,562
The answer to that sentence is No. God would not be just if He created someone knowing they would fall.
If the statement was ''Is God just if He created man to fall but also to have a redemption plan'', the answer would be Yes. That is just.
-----------------------------
If the Creator created a highly intelligent vessel unto dishonor from a lump of clay Rom 9:21, IE Created person A knowing they would inevitably go to hell for all eternity. 100% evil. There is absolutely no way to defend God as just if this were the A-Z for the wicked. God created hell, a place of eternal torment. God created a person knowing from birth that they would go to hell. That is unjust.
If God did not create a hell of eternal torment He could pass as just if He gave those vessels created for dishonor a quick death. As annihilionists believe will happen.
-------------------------------
If you believe and confidently state that God is 'just' when you also believe in an eternal hell, you have to believe in absolute true free will. IE You have to believe that God created man, not knowing who would fall and when. You have to believe that He is surprised when someone falls and when someone repents. He can have insight, expectations and make educated assumptions, but He cannot officially 'know'. As I explain here Free will.
------------------------------
@Curtis Do you believe God knew Lucifer would fall?
Curtis
Loyal
- Joined
- Mar 27, 2015
- Messages
- 4,469
I believe God did create Lucifer knowing he would fall even though there is no salvation for angels. Angels were not given the right to obey or not obey Even though they had the ability not obey. only man was given the right to choose between life or death.
