Is God One or is He Three?

[Alter2Ego]

All of Genesis Chapter 18

Genesis 18:13, "And the LORD said unto Abraham, Wherefore did Sarah laugh, saying, Shall I of a surety bear a child, which am old?"

Abraham is talking with a real tangible Man. So who do you think LORD refers to?

First and the Last:

You are relying on the following scripture as proof that humans are able to see Almighty God Jehovah:

Genesis 18:13​

"Then Jehovah said to Abraham: “Why did Sarah laugh and say, ‘Am I really going to give birth even though I am old?’"


Scripture says God cannot be seen. He told Moses the following:

Exodus 33:20​

But he added: “You cannot see my face, for no man can see me and live.”

​

Always remember: The Bible does not contradict itself. If you keep that in mind, you will be able to understand that there must be a logical explanation even when there appears to be a conflict. Here is the logical explanation for Genesis chapter 18 where the reader is being told that Abraham was talking with Jehovah: Abraham was actually speaking to an angel. Because the angel represented Jehovah at that point in time, scripture refers to that angel as Jehovah. We know he was talking to an angel because of the context (surrounding words, verses, and chapters). Notice the context below.

Genesis 18:1​

"Afterward, Jehovah appeared to him [Abraham] among the big trees of Mamʹre while he was sitting at the entrance of the tent during the hottest part of the day.

Genesis 18:2​

He [Abraham] looked up and saw three men standing some distance from him. When he saw them, he ran from the entrance of the tent to meet them, and he bowed down to the ground.


See that? Verse 2 says Abraham saw three "men." The three "men" were actually angels, two of whom were on their way to Sodom. This is the occasion when three angels spoke with Abraham and informed him that the twin cities of Sodom and Gomorrah were about to be destroyed due to rampant homosexuality. Two of the angels left and ahead to Sodom while the third one who represented Jehovah stayed behind and negotiated with Abraham .

Genesis 18:22​

"Then the men left from there and went toward Sodʹom, but Jehovah remained with Abraham."

Genesis 18:33​

"When Jehovah finished speaking to Abraham, he went his way and Abraham returned to his place."

​

Notice at verse 22 it says the men left for Sodom. That was only two out of the three that Abraham saw at Genesis 18:2. The third one that represented Jehovah (and was therefore referred to as Jehovah) returned to heaven after the negotiation with Abraham ended. Notice how the Bible confirms that the three "men" were actually angels.

Genesis 19:1​

"The two angels arrived at Sodʹom by evening, and Lot was sitting in the gate of Sodʹom. When Lot saw them, he got up to meet them and bowed down with his face to the earth."



Alter2Ego

 

[Alter2Ego]

The assertion that Titus 2:13 is referring to two different persons—Jehovah and Jesus—is based on a misunderstanding of the Greek grammar and context of the passage. A careful examination reveals that this verse is actually affirming the deity of Jesus Christ.

Titus 2:13 in the King James Version (KJV) reads: "Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ." The key phrase here, "the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ," employs a construction in Greek known as the Granville Sharp Rule. This grammatical rule states that when two nouns of the same case are connected by the conjunction "and" (kai in Greek) and the first noun has the definite article ("the") while the second does not, both nouns refer to the same person. Thus, in this context, "the great God" and "our Saviour" are both referring to Jesus Christ.

This interpretation is supported by the immediate context and the broader theological context of the New Testament, which consistently affirms the divinity of Christ. For example, John 1:1 states, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." Additionally, John 20:28 records Thomas addressing Jesus as "My Lord and my God," which Jesus does not correct but accepts, indicating His divine identity.

The earlier verses in Titus 2 refer to "God our Savior" (Titus 2:10), a title that is interchangeably applied to both the Father and Jesus in the New Testament, showing their unity in the work of salvation. Paul frequently uses this title for Jesus, as seen in passages like Philippians 3:20, "For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ."

Therefore, the claim that Titus 2:13 refers to two distinct persons—Jehovah and Jesus—is not supported by the Greek grammar or the broader scriptural context. Instead, the verse affirms that Jesus Christ is both our great God and Savior, a truth that is foundational to Christian doctrine. This understanding harmonizes with the overall biblical witness to the deity of Christ and His unique role in the salvation of humanity.

First and the Last:

You are ignoring the fact that everything in the original Greek and Hebrew was written in all caps without any punctuation marks (periods, commas, etc.). So it was the English translator's responsibility to pay attention to the context and insert the correct punctuation marks. Trinitarian Bible translators deliberately inserted commas and periods at the wrong places and also did the reverse deliberately: they left out periods and commas that were required to separate sentences and independent clauses.


Titus 2:13 is talking about two different persons. I quoted from other Bibles where the correct punctuation was used. You insist on relying on the Trinitarian Bible version that suits your purposes. And even then your argument that Jesus is God fails because Jesus was seen by hundreds of people and he also literally died. Scripture says God cannot be seen and also says God cannot die.


{13} And I charge you before God, who gives life to all, and before Christ Jesus, who gave a good testimony before Pontius Pilate, {14} that you obey this command without wavering. Then no one can find fault with you from now until our Lord Jesus Christ comes again. {15} For, At just the right time Christ will be revealed from heaven by the blessed and only almighty God, the King of all kings and Lord of all lords. {16} He alone can never die, and he lives in light so brilliant that no human can approach him. No human eye has ever seen him, nor ever will. All honor and power to him forever! Amen." (1 Timothy 6:13-16)


Deal with that.


Alter2Ego

 

[B-A-C]

But he added: “You cannot see my face, for no man can see me and live.”

Isa 6:1; In the year of King Uzziah's death I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, lofty and exalted, with the train of His robe filling the temple.
Isa 6:5 Then I said, "Woe is me, for I am ruined! Because I am a man of unclean lips, And I live among a people of unclean lips; For my eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts."

Gen 32:30; So Jacob named the place Peniel, for he said, "I have seen God face to face, yet my life has been preserved."

There are a few more I can post if you like.

 

[B-A-C]

Never say never, it seems there are sometimes exceptions in the Bible, and usually these are context related.

Exod 24:9 Then Moses went up with Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel,
Exod 24:10 and they saw the God of Israel; and under His feet there appeared to be a pavement of sapphire, as clear as the sky itself.

John 14:9; Jesus *said to him, "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

Now there are some passages like this...

1Tim 6:14; that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Tim 6:15; which He will bring about at the proper time—He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
1Tim 6:16; who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.

It says here that He currently "dwells in unapproachable light" which no can see. I believe this to be true, but this was written after Jesus ascended back into heaven.

But did people ever call Jesus Lord? Did any ever call Him God? Is there any scripture in the Bible where the Father calls Jesus God? Did any people ever see Jesus?

The answer to all 4 questions is "yes".

John 20:27; Then He *said to Thomas, "Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hand and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing."
John 20:28; Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"

Heb 1:8; But of the Son The Father says, "YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.

Luke 3:22; and the Holy Spirit descended upon Him in bodily form like a dove, and a voice came out of heaven, "You are My beloved Son, in You I am well-pleased."

The verse above is very interesting...

John 5:37; "And the Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form.

If you take Luke 3:22 and John 5:37 in Chronological order. Jesus was baptized and the dove appeared and the voice came down from heaven before the conversation in John 5:37.

Why is that important? Jesus says "the Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me". The Father calls Jesus His Son when the voice comes out of heaven.

Another scripture that says people heard God's voice is..

Matt 17:5; While he was still speaking, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and behold, a voice out of the cloud said, "This is My beloved Son, with whom I am well-pleased; listen to Him!"
Mat t17:6; When the disciples heard this, they fell face down to the ground and were terrified.

So Jesus said you have never heard His voice at any time. But some people did. ( Paul heard Jesus's voice on the road to Damascus )

 

[Alter2Ego]

I see no point in continuing this discussion on the forum since it's against your website's rules. I invite you and anyone else to private message me if you wish to discuss Trinity further.


Alter2Ego

So you are leaving, and won't see any more postings from you?
Does this also mean you'd like your account closed?
If so, please let me know, and I will contact our Administrator to have it so for you. Understand that it may take a little time, but eventually it will be as you ask and your account will be closed.

If true and you don't change your mind, then fair you well in your travels, and may the hardship of all believers not be overly hard for you.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
Moderator
Nick
\o/
<><

Christ4Ever:

No. I am not leaving. You are responding to an old message. I've been having discussions within this thread ever since I posted that comment several days ago.

Also, I never said I was leaving this website. I said I would leave the thread and invited anyone interested in the discussion to private message me.


Alter2Ego

 

[First and the Last]

Titus 2:13 is talking about two different persons. I quoted from other Bibles where the correct punctuation was used. You insist on relying on the Trinitarian Bible version that suits your purposes. And even then your argument that Jesus is God fails because Jesus was seen by hundreds of people and he also literally died. Scripture says God cannot be seen and also says God cannot die.

Oh, how delightful! Once again, let's cherry-pick translations and punctuation to suit our narrative, ignoring the broader theological and historical context. It's almost as if we believe that manipulating commas will reshape divine truth. Titus 2:13, when read in context and understood in light of established Christian doctrine, clearly speaks to the unity and divinity of Jesus Christ. But let's put punctuation debates aside for a moment.

Instead, let's address the more pressing issue: Jesus being seen and dying. Yes, He was seen by many and did indeed die. This is the astonishing beauty of the Incarnation! The infinite God chose to take on finite human form, becoming fully human while remaining fully divine. Focusing on "God cannot be seen" and "God cannot die" misses the point of the mystery and wonder of the Incarnation. Jesus, as God, veiled His divine glory in human flesh, making Himself visible and subject to death for our salvation. This dual nature – fully God and fully man – is central to Christian faith, a profound mystery that defies simplistic interpretations.

So, instead of fixating on punctuations and attempting to force a division where Christian orthodoxy recognizes unity, perhaps it's time to embrace the incredible truth that God, in His love, became one of us.

 

[Charlie24]

Isa 6:1; In the year of King Uzziah's death I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, lofty and exalted, with the train of His robe filling the temple.
Isa 6:5 Then I said, "Woe is me, for I am ruined! Because I am a man of unclean lips, And I live among a people of unclean lips; For my eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts."

Gen 32:30; So Jacob named the place Peniel, for he said, "I have seen God face to face, yet my life has been preserved."

There are a few more I can post if you like.

That's right! There are more examples of God being seen.

When John said that no man has seen God, he was referring to God in the fulness of His glory.

No mortal man can see that and live.

 

[Alter2Ego]

Isa 6:1; In the year of King Uzziah's death I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, lofty and exalted, with the train of His robe filling the temple.
Isa 6:5 Then I said, "Woe is me, for I am ruined! Because I am a man of unclean lips, And I live among a people of unclean lips; For my eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts."

B-A-C:

Isaiah made it clear that he was referring to a vision based on what he was describing. He did not literally see God.

Gen 32:30; So Jacob named the place Peniel, for he said, "I have seen God face to face, yet my life has been preserved."

There are a few more I can post if you like.

You are ignoring the context (surrounding words, verses, and chapters). The context says Jacob actually saw an angel.

Genesis 32:1​

"Jacob then went on his way, and the angels of God met up with him."


I had a similar discussion with First and the Last who thought Abraham was actually speaking to Jehovah. Below is the weblink to what I told First and the Last at Post 301. I'm sure you will find it to be informative.

Is God One or is He Three?

All of Genesis Chapter 18 Genesis 18:13, "And the LORD said unto Abraham, Wherefore did Sarah laugh, saying, Shall I of a surety bear a child, which am old?" Abraham is talking with a real tangible Man. So who do you think LORD refers to? First and the Last: You are relying on the following...

www.talkjesus.com

Alter2Ego

 

[B-A-C]

1Tim 6:14; that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Tim 6:15; which He will bring about at the proper time—He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
1Tim 6:16; who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.

Some Bibles add the word "ever" here. No man can "ever" see. but none of the Greek manuscripts have that word in that passage.

Rev 1:5; and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood—
Rev 1:6; and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father—to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.
Rev 1:7; BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.

In context, both passages are about Jesus.

 

[Curtis]

Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

2Co 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

How can a person be changed into his image from glory to glory if he never sees him?

Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Jesus shows his love to those whom he loves by manifesting himself to them.

 

[B-A-C]

You are ignoring the context (surrounding words, verses, and chapters). The context says Jacob actually saw an angel.

It's funny you say one of the three angels at Sodom and Gomorrah was the Lord ( I actually agree with that )
But the "angel" that Jacob met could not possibly be the Lord? But then Jacob calls Him "the Lord".

But back to Genesis.

Gen 32:24; Then Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him until daybreak.
Gen 32:25; When he saw that he had not prevailed against him, he touched the socket of his thigh; so the socket of Jacob's thigh was dislocated while he wrestled with him.
Gen 32:26; Then he said, "Let me go, for the dawn is breaking." But he said, "I will not let you go unless you bless me."
Gen 32:27; So he said to him, "What is your name?" And he said, "Jacob."
Gen 32:28; He said, "Your name shall no longer be Jacob, but Israel; for you have striven with God and with men and have prevailed."

Gen 32:30; So Jacob named the place Peniel, for he said, "I have seen God face to face, yet my life has been preserved."

So who is ignoring context here?

 

[Alter2Ego]

1Tim 6:16; who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.

Rev 1:7; BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.

In context, both passages are about Jesus.

B-A-C said:

1Tim 6:14; that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Tim 6:15; which He will bring about at the proper time—He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
1Tim 6:16; who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.

Some Bibles add the word "ever" here. No man can "ever" see. but none of the Greek manuscripts have that word in that passage.

Rev 1:5; and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood—
Rev 1:6; and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father—to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.
Rev 1:7; BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.


ALTER2EGO said:

You are quoting from two entirely different Bible books, and you call that context? Context refers to surrounding words, verses, and chapters within the same Bible book.

The context to 1 Timothy 6:16 is the book of 1 Timothy only. Therefore, to find the identity of the person described at 1 Timothy 6:16 of whom it says, "no man has seen or can see," one has to find the subject of that statement. We know it could not be Jesus Christ, because people saw him when he was the earth. So logic says it has to be Jehovah the father, because as verse 16 says, "no man has seen or can see ." (If they were to see Jehovah the father, they would die.)

Below is the context that identifies the person that "no man has seen or can see" within the very same chapter of 1 Timothy chapter 6. It comes right before where you started quoting.

1 Timothy 6:13​

"Before God, who preserves all things alive, and Christ Jesus, who as a witness made the fine public declaration before Pontius Pilate, I give you orders...."



In conclusion, 1 Timothy 6:16 is talking about Jehovah the father, while Revelation 1:7 is talking about Jesus the son. Two entirely different spirit persons.

Not only that, the scriptures at 1 Timothy 6:16 and Revelation 1:7 are complete opposites that contradict each other. 1 Timothy 6:16 says the person cannot be seen, while Revelation 1:7 says the exact opposite.


Alter2Ego

 

[First and the Last]

Not only that, the scriptures at 1 Timothy 6:16 and Revelation 1:7 are complete opposites that contradict each other. 1 Timothy 6:16 says the person cannot be seen, while Revelation 1:7 says the exact opposite.

If you can't understand that Jesus is both God and God's Son in the incarnation than you are blind.

 

[joestue]

Exod 24:10 and they saw the God of Israel; and under His feet there appeared to be a pavement of sapphire, as clear as the sky itself.

yes that's because the nuclear rocket ship engines melted the sand.

(if any one hasn't read "The Spaceships of Ezekiel", you're missing out.)

 

[Rhema]

Evidently, you have not been reading all the posts.


Luk 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Whar part of Jesus went to paradise after his physical death on the cross? What about the thief?

Curtis, there is nothing in that passage which remotely states that a spirit cannot die.

Rhema
(There just isn't.)

 

[Rhema]

Curtis:

That's what you and all Trinitarians are claiming when you insist that Jesus, who scripture says was BEGOTTEN aka CREATED, is also God.

Alter2Ego

But Alter2Ego,

The word "begotten," though, does not mean "created." It just means born.

Jesus was μονογενής - the only Son of God who was born in the normal human way - an actual human, not a phantasm or hologram. Whoever told you that begotten means created did you a great disservice.

Rhema
I provide you with a link to the Liddell Scott Lexicon:

Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, μονο-γενής

 

[Rhema]

I see you are in the same boat as the other guy on this forum who also does not believe Jesus is God.

No need to be nasty, Curtis. But that's not what I said. So let me be clear.

I do not believe in the Trinity.

And from what I can tell, @Christ4Ever doesn't either, given his assertion that there is a Hierarchy in the Godhead - a view that contradicts the aspect of co-equal - a stipulation of the Trinity by definition,... (although I haven't yet read a post where he clarifies his position).

Rhema
PS: Neither did Sir Isaac Newton (believe in the Trinity).

 

[Rhema]

The phrase "In the beginning" refers to the commencement of creation and time,

Not necessarily. As Kittle has shown, ἀρχή, within literature whose style compares to that of the Gospel According to John, means "cosmic protoplasm" - the stuff out of which modern matter was made.

Rhema
( I think y'all need to be less certain of your understanding and study some more.)

 

[Rhema]

John’s Gospel emphasizes that Jesus is eternal and pre-existent with God.

(Just saw this....)

John's Gospel is a Tractate written to oppose Philo. One truly cannot understand the meaning behind John if one has not read Philo.

Rhema

 

[Rhema]

How can know what scripture means if you don't even know Jesus is God who is the Word that you think you know?

(Kinda right back at ya, Curtis.)

Rhema