Is God One or is He Three?

[Alter2Ego]

But you already stipulated that there is no "J" in Hebrew, and the switch to a hard "J" in English from a "Y" or "I"sound is pretty recent.

The first English language books to make a clear distinction in writing between ⟨i⟩ and ⟨j⟩ were the King James Bible 1st Revision Cambridge 1629 and an English grammar book published in 1633. J - Wikipedia​

So technically the NWT should be writing Iehova, or Yahova.


Well, I'm not Jewish.


And I'm pretty sure I know how to pronounce the Divine Name.

Rhema

Rhema:

Technically, the ancient Israelites should have obeyed the Almighty and spread his personal name abroad. If they had done what they were commanded to do, we wouldn't have people today having to use a substitute name such as Jehovah. As a reminder, Jehovah instructed Moses to tell the Egpytian pharoah the following:

Exodus 9:15​

For by now I could have thrust my hand out to strike you and your people with a devastating plague, and you would have been wiped out from the earth.

Exodus 9:16​

But for this very reason I have kept you in existence: to show you my power and to have my name declared in all the earth.


The ancient Israelites did the exact opposite of what the Almighty God told them to do: They refused to utter God's personal name, using the self-righteousness excuse that God's personal name was too holy to be uttered. As a result, its correct pronunciation is lost to history.

You, and no Jewish person, for that matter, is in position to complain about the use of the name "Jehovah" since the fault begins with the ancient Israelites. Modern-day Jews continue to pretend that their ancestors did right.



Alter2Ego

 

[Alter2Ego]

But Alter2Ego,

The word "begotten," though, does not mean "created." It just means born.

Jesus was μονογενής - the only Son of God who was born in the normal human way - an actual human, not a phantasm or hologram. Whoever told you that begotten means created did you a great disservice.

Rhema
I provide you with a link to the Liddell Scott Lexicon:

Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, μονο-γενής

Rhema:

A person who was sired is a created being. That's the point I'm making.

Alter2Ego

 

[Alter2Ego]

And you're not listening either. Please, compare your NWT with your own Kingdom Interlinear, and the inaccuracies will stand out like a sore thumb.


Don't fool yourself. You have no experience in translation or linguistics. Again, get a copy of your own Kingdom Interlinear, and then when you're witnessing, use that instead.

Rhema

Rhema:

Your opinion about the New World Translation of the Bible is irrelevant where I am concerned. The NWT does not contain any inaccuracies. The inaccuracies exist in your head.


Alter2Ego

 

[Alter2Ego]

I was going to let this pass, but it's a good example of what I called a Linguistic Artifact.

ο κυριος μου και ο θεος μου = the Lord of me and the God of me.

It is not written to say the Lord and the God of me. If it was, the first μου would have been omitted. Furthermore, the conjunction "kai" at this point would indicate two separate phrases and a verbal expression of astonishment directed toward two separate objects, the first being directed to Jesus, and the second to the Father.

Thomas wasn't wrong.
Rhema

Rhema:

Thanks for the above information. I will keep that for the future when another Trinitarian tries to use that cherry-picked verse to try to argue that Jesus disciples believed he was in a Trinity with God and that they were addressing Jesus as God.

Alter2Ego

 

[First and the Last]

At the end of all of this, then, Jesus is just a meat-puppet-robot for your essence of God. (And by essence, you mean person-hood.)

Oh, yes, because obviously the profound mystery of the incarnation can be neatly reduced to a crude "meat-puppet-robot" analogy. This oversimplified caricature completely misses the depth and beauty of God manifesting in the flesh. Jesus Christ is far more than a mere puppet; He is the living embodiment of the one true God who took on human nature to redeem humanity. Colossians 2:9 says, "For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily." This means that Jesus is not just some vessel for God's essence but fully God and fully man in one divine person. The incarnation is a profound miracle, where the infinite God chose to reveal Himself in finite form, experiencing life, death, and resurrection to offer salvation. So, rather than reducing this incredible truth to something as absurd as a "meat-puppet," it's worth recognizing the profound mystery and immense love demonstrated by God in the person of Jesus Christ.

 

[Alter2Ego]

Does the Bible teach the Trinity?

Curtis:

No, it does not. Cherry-picked verses are not saying what you think they are saying because you are ignoring the context for all of them. I will show you with the first three on your list. Notice below.

“Let us make man in our image, after our likeness.” What do the plural verb (“let us”) and the plural pronoun (“our”) mean?

Genesis 3:22 (“Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil”), Genesis 11:7(“Come, let us go down and there confuse their language”),

Isaiah 6:8 (“Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?”).

This might come to you as a shock, but the Bible says there were thousands of angels in existence at the time God said the above at Genesis 1:26.

Psalm 91:11​

For he will give his angels a command concerning you, To guard you in all your ways.


Jehovah was speaking to the angel that we now know was Jesus (before his spirit life was transferred into the womb of the virgin named Mary) when he said the following:

Genesis 1:26​

Then God said: “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness, and let them have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and the domestic animals and all the earth and every creeping animal that is moving on the earth.”


Jesus was the very first angel that Jehovah created. Scripture says he was BORN and that he was CREATED.

Colossians 1:15​

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;

Colossians 1:15 debunks the Trinitarian claim that Jesus the son has always existed along with Jehovah the father.



Alter2Ego

 

[Alter2Ego]

“Let us make man in our image, after our likeness.” What do the plural verb (“let us”) and the plural pronoun (“our”) mean?

Genesis 3:22 (“Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil”), Genesis 11:7(“Come, let us go down and there confuse their language”),

Isaiah 6:8 (“Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?”).

Curtis:

You are again ignoring the fact that there were millions of angelic sons in existence when the book of Genesis was written by inspiration of Jehovah. The term "let us" is Jehovah talking to one of his millions of spirit sons, namely: the Archangel Michael who came to earth and was born as the Messiah, Jesus Christ.

Isaiah 6:8 (“Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?”).

Somehow you, like all Trinitarians, have managed to convince yourself that the use of the First-person plural pronoun "us" for two or more persons = Trinity. It does not. At Isaiah chapter 6, the prophet related that there were numerous angels with Jehovah when he saw a vision of Jehovah sitting on his throne. Notice below:

Isaiah 6:1​

In the year that King Uz·ziʹah died, I saw Jehovah sitting on a lofty and elevated throne, and the skirts of his robe filled the temple.

Isaiah 6:2​

Seraphs were standing above him; each had six wings. Each covered his face with two and covered his feet with two, and each of them would fly about with two.


See that? Isaiah was writing about what he saw in a vision. At verse 2 he said there were Seraphs (angels) standing above [Jehovah] with six wings each. So when Jehovah said "let us go down and there confuse their language," he was talking to one or more of those angels, none of which has anything to do with the trinity.


Alter2Ego

 

[Charlie24]

​

​

Curtis:

No, it does not. Cherry-picked verses are not saying what you think they are saying because you are ignoring the context for all of them. I will show you with the first three on your list. Notice below.




This might come to you as a shock, but the Bible says there were thousands of angels in existence at the time God said the above at Genesis 1:26.

Psalm 91:11​

For he will give his angels a command concerning you, To guard you in all your ways.


Jehovah was speaking to the angel that we now know was Jesus (before his spirit life was transferred into the womb of the virgin named Mary) when he said the following:

Genesis 1:26​

Then God said: “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness, and let them have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and the domestic animals and all the earth and every creeping animal that is moving on the earth.”


Jesus was the very first angel that Jehovah created. Scripture says he was BORN and that he was CREATED.

Colossians 1:15​

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;

Colossians 1:15 debunks the Trinitarian claim that Jesus the son has always existed along with Jehovah the father.



Alter2Ego

That is the wrong concept, my friend.

In the very next verse Paul said that He (Christ) created all things, everything was created by Him and for Him. Col. 1:16.

How can the Creator be created?

"The firstborn of every creature" is referring to Christ as the Creator. In other words, as the Creator, He is the first cause of all creation.

 

[B-A-C]

namely: the Archangel Michael who came to earth and was born as the Messiah, Jesus Christ.

Ummm... yeah. About this. Do you have any scripture to support this?

Heb 1:4 having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they.
Heb 1:5 For to which of the angels did He ever say, "YOU ARE MY SON, TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU"? And again, "I WILL BE A FATHER TO HIM AND HE SHALL BE A SON TO ME"?
Heb 1:6 And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, "AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM."
Heb 1:7 And of the angels He says, "WHO MAKES HIS ANGELS WINDS, AND HIS MINISTERS A FLAME OF FIRE."
Heb 1:8 But of the Son He says, "YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.

How did Jesus become better than the angels? He was already God, but...

Heb 2:7; "YOU HAVE MADE HIM FOR A LITTLE WHILE LOWER THAN THE ANGELS; YOU HAVE CROWNED HIM WITH GLORY AND HONOR, AND HAVE APPOINTED HIM OVER THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;
Heb 2:9; But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.

Acts 1:1; The first account I composed, Theophilus, about all that Jesus began to do and teach,
Acts 1:2; until the day when He was taken up to heaven, after He had by the Holy Spirit given orders to the apostles whom He had chosen.
Acts 1:3; To these He also presented Himself alive after His suffering, by many convincing proofs, appearing to them over a period of forty days and speaking of the things concerning the kingdom of God.
Acts 1:4; Gathering them together, He commanded them not to leave Jerusalem, but to wait for what the Father had promised, "Which," He said, "you heard of from Me;
Acts 1:5; for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now."

Acts 1:11; They also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven."

Luke 24:38; And Jesus said to them, "Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts?
Luke 24:39; "See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have."

 

[Alter2Ego]

Ummm... yeah. About this. Do you have any scripture to support this?

Heb 1:4 having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they.
Heb 1:5 For to which of the angels did He ever say, "YOU ARE MY SON, TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU"? And again, "I WILL BE A FATHER TO HIM AND HE SHALL BE A SON TO ME"?
Heb 1:6 And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, "AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM."
Heb 1:7 And of the angels He says, "WHO MAKES HIS ANGELS WINDS, AND HIS MINISTERS A FLAME OF FIRE."
Heb 1:8 But of the Son He says, "YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.

B-A-C:

Hebrews 1:4 and 1:5 both confirm that Jesus is an angel. Verse 4 says that he is no ordinary angel.

I'm not surprised that you skipped past verse 6 where it says Jesus was firstBORN, which indicates he did not always exist.

Heb 1:7 And of the angels He says, "WHO MAKES HIS ANGELS WINDS, AND HIS MINISTERS A FLAME OF FIRE."
Heb 1:8 But of the Son He says, "YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.

Hebrews 1:8 is with reference to Jehovah the Father. Another person in this thread presented Hebrews 1:8 already. Below is what I told them:


You are reading from a Trinitarian translation that deliberately dropped the quotation signs to cause confusion. Where it says Thy throne, O God, those words are supposed to be within quotations because it's quoting from Psalm 45:6. Notice how a couple of other Bibles render Hebrews 1:8. Watch for the quotation sign in light blue.



New Living Translation
But to the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, endures forever and ever. You rule with a scepter of justice."

Hebrews 1:8​

But about the Son, he says: “God is your throne forever and ever, and the scepter of your Kingdom is the scepter of uprightness."



If you go to Psalm 45:6, you will see the exact same words where it's with reference to Jehovah the father.

Acts 1:1; The first account I composed, Theophilus, about all that Jesus began to do and teach,
Acts 1:2; until the day when He was taken up to heaven, after He had by the Holy Spirit given orders to the apostles whom He had chosen.
Acts 1:3; To these He also presented Himself alive after His suffering, by many convincing proofs, appearing to them over a period of forty days and speaking of the things concerning the kingdom of God.
Acts 1:4; Gathering them together, He commanded them not to leave Jerusalem, but to wait for what the Father had promised, "Which," He said, "you heard of from Me;
Acts 1:5; for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now."

Acts 1:11; They also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven."

What point are you trying to make with the scriptures at Acts? The only thing you've done with quoting those verses is confirming that Jesus died and was resurrected from the dead. Scripture says God cannot die. Jesus literally died.

New Living Translation
"He alone can never die, and he lives in light so brilliant that no human can approach him. No human eye has ever seen him, nor ever will. All honor and power to him forever! Amen." (1 Timothy 6:16)




Alter2Ego

 

[Charlie24]

B-A-C:

Hebrews 1:4 and 1:5 both confirm that Jesus is an angel. Verse 4 says that he is no ordinary angel.

I'm not surprised that you skipped past verse 6 where it says Jesus was firstBORN, which indicates he did not always exist.



Hebrews 1:8 is with reference to Jehovah the Father. Another person in this thread presented Hebrews 1:8 already. Below is what I told them:


You are reading from a Trinitarian translation that deliberately dropped the quotation signs to cause confusion. Where it says Thy throne, O God, those words are supposed to be within quotations because it's quoting from Psalm 45:6. Notice how a couple of other Bibles render Hebrews 1:8. Watch for the quotation sign in light blue.



New Living Translation
But to the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, endures forever and ever. You rule with a scepter of justice."

Hebrews 1:8​

But about the Son, he says: “God is your throne forever and ever, and the scepter of your Kingdom is the scepter of uprightness."



If you go to Psalm 45:6, you will see the exact same words where it's with reference to Jehovah the father.




What point are you trying to make with the scriptures at Acts? The only thing you've done with quoting those verses is confirming that Jesus died and was resurrected from the dead. Scripture says God cannot die. Jesus literally died.

New Living Translation
"He alone can never die, and he lives in light so brilliant that no human can approach him. No human eye has ever seen him, nor ever will. All honor and power to him forever! Amen." (1 Timothy 6:16)




Alter2Ego

That's wrong also. Heb. 1:4-5 is speaking to Christ in His humanity being made so much better than the angles.

"The Word became flesh" is Christ as deity beside the Father and entering another realm, the realm of human flesh.

He has always been God and will always be God. He changed from one form to another being God the entire time.

 

[Christ4Ever]

Jesus was the very first angel that Jehovah created. Scripture says he was BORN and that he was CREATED.

Dear Member Alter2Ego,
Heresy! I'm sorry I will be banning you from Talk Jesus.
That you may understand why Jehovah Witness' are a cult. I studied under them for 2 years in Brooklyn New York, and visited the Publishing House, before they decided to sell it. I am not ignorant of their doctrine. I let you stay here, in the hope that you would know His saving grace, and not promulgate those heretical teachings here on Talk Jesus. Sadly, my hope was in vein.

With that being said, I pray and hope that you may one day come to the true knowledge of Jesus Christ, and God's Saving Grace in Him.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
Moderator
Nick
\o/
<><
@Chad @Br. Bear
Brother Chad Please delete this members acct.

 

[Christ4Ever]

To those still posting on this thread.
If you have not read my last post to Alter2Ego in which I was letting him know that he is being banned from Talk Jesus. Know now that he is and won't be able to answer any replies you make to him.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
Moderator
Nick
\o/
<><

 

[Charlie24]

That's wrong also. Heb. 1:4-5 is speaking to Christ in His humanity being made so much better than the angles.

"The Word became flesh" is Christ as deity beside the Father and entering another realm, the realm of human flesh.

He has always been God and will always be God. He changed from one form to another being God the entire time.

If we don't understand that Christ came into this world as a Servant, the Suffering Lamb, to redeem man from His sin, setting aside His power as God and totally relying on the Father in His life, then we will come to these ridiculous claims of who we think Christ is.

He was our example of how to live this life depending on God and not ourselves.

 

[Rhema]

As a further addition to my post showing that the reason John wrote his gospel (that we may believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God), we have early church testimony that Matthew was originally written in Hebrew.

What Origen Adamantius hadn't mentioned (as related by Eusebius) is that Hebrew manuscripts existed for all four gospels, and were likely translated into Greek for Paul's non-Jewish churches.

In John 1:1, the Hebrew manuscript Vatican Ebr. 100 reads, "In the beginning was the Son of Eloah, and the Son of El was with El, and the Son of El was Eloah."

There is no mention at all of any "Word." Also note the text does not say that the Son of El was EL, but rather Eloah, which could be translated as "a god" or even "divine."

I just find it curious, but it's been decades since I was able to walk down the hall to the Semitic Languages department.

Rhema

 

[Rhema]

I'm not a moderator so I'll have to stop here. Just making you aware of the hole you're digging for yourself.

I wasn't commenting about any moderator here. Please read what I wrote. The examples given were Martin Luther and John Calvin.

Rhema
(So where in Proverbs is that verse, "If the shoe fits"?)

 

[Charlie24]

As a further addition to my post showing that the reason John wrote his gospel (that we may believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God), we have early church testimony that Matthew was originally written in Hebrew.

What Origen Adamantius hadn't mentioned (as related by Eusebius) is that Hebrew manuscripts existed for all four gospels, and were likely translated into Greek for Paul's non-Jewish churches.

In John 1:1, the Hebrew manuscript Vatican Ebr. 100 reads, "In the beginning was the Son of Eloah, and the Son of El was with El, and the Son of El was Eloah."

There is no mention at all of any "Word." Also note the text does not say that the Son of El was EL, but rather Eloah, which could be translated as "a god" or even "divine."

I just find it curious, but it's been decades since I was able to walk down the hall to the Semitic Languages department.

Rhema

Well, these are some interesting things to know for some, I'm not a fan of history.

I'm only interested in the inspired Word of God. History could be written by anyone, I know who wrote the Scripture.

 

[Rhema]

Rhema:

A person who was sired is a created being. That's the point I'm making.

Alter2Ego

While we might be devolving into semantics here, I'm not comfortable with the word "created" being applied to babies. It's too much of a stretch for its definition. Now if there's some genetic manipulation involved in a laboratory somewhere, then yes, the word created can apply.

Fashioned, knitted, made, I have no problem with these words being applied to babies, but "creation" just doesn't sound right.

Rhema

Hmmm... Then again.... given belief in the virgin birth, God would have had to do some genetic manipulation to create the body of Jesus, so.... you've changed my mind (or I did I).

 

[Rhema]

Rhema:

Your opinion about the New World Translation of the Bible is irrelevant where I am concerned. The NWT does not contain any inaccuracies. The inaccuracies exist in your head.


Alter2Ego

Well that's disappointing to hear. That you won't even check your NWT with your own Kingdom Interlinear to see the inaccuracies for yourself.

But I understand that the JW community disapproves of academic and scholarly inquiry, and demands faith in what the upper echelon decides.

Humans have an unfortunate herd instinct, and hates the green monkey.

Rhema

 

[Rhema]

Oh, yes, because obviously the profound mystery of the incarnation can be neatly reduced to a crude "meat-puppet-robot" analogy.

Just because you think it's crude, doesn't mean it's a wrong description.
Jesus praying to the Father (within a Sabellian framework) is like a sideshow ventriloquist talking to a puppet on his hand.
It's just bizarre, no matter how well you dress it up with pretty prose.
But you are quite welcome to worship your profound mystery.
I don't think I will.

Rhema