Can you please post scripture to support that Jesus commanded us to keep the Sabbath and remember that everyone was under the old covenant until Jesus was crucified on the cross. So any examples of Sabbath keeping in the new covenant should be after the Cross.SpiritLedEd said:
Is Keeping the Sabbath for today?
- Thread starter Fellowservant
- Start date
- Status
Coconut
Member
- Joined
- Feb 17, 2005
- Messages
- 4,663
The gospel of Christ offers a rest which is more than physical and temporal but in Him, spiritual and eternal. The writer of Hebrews explains that the new covenant believer, resting in the Lord Jesus Christ, enjoys now and eternally what the old sabbath could only anticipate (Heb.4:3-10),
aremessenger
Member
- Joined
- Jan 22, 2006
- Messages
- 19
Some of what I write here may be some what redundant, but it should not be a distraction to the study. I think it's important, and only fair to both sides of this debate to point out 4 important facts. 1, There is no command in the New Testament to observe the Sabbath. 2, There is no command in the New Testament stating that the Sabbath was done away with, or nailed to the cross. 3.There are no commands in the New Testament that orders Sunday as replacing Saturday(the Sabbath) as being the New day of worship.4, There are no commands or injunctions in the New Testament where the Lord Blesses the keeping of the 1st day (Sunday), as the New Sabbath.
What follows are some of "my" reasons for Sabbath keeping: In Ex. 20:8-11, and Deut. 5:12-15, we find the words," Remember the Sabbath day to keep it Holy. Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work: but the seventh day is the Sabbath or the Lord thy God...., it goes on the say that the Lord Blessed this day and Made it Holy.
Ex. 31:16,17, I find where the Sabbath was a sign to the children of Israel that God made heaven and earth. In Eze. 20: 12-20, I find where the Sabbath is a sign of God as a Sanctifier. Isa. 56:1-2 states that a blessing was pronounced upon Sabbath keepers. Also in Isa. 58:12,14, there is a Prophecy of Sabbath reform. Isa. 66:22,23 says that the Sabbath will be observed in the Earth made new; Which is an interesting admission and Prophecy, since that is future, or yet to come, meaning it has not as of yet taken place.
I realize that there are those who will chide me for using Old Testament scripture as in meaning Old Covenant, and that it is no longer applicable for us today. And yet I have read with interest some posters using it rather heavily; Clearly the Sabbath is not done away with in the earth made new. This is not meant as personal sarcasm towards any person or persons, but merely as a statement of fact; more on this later.
Looking over in the New Covenant scriptures, it says in Lk. 4:16, "And He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up, and His custom was, he went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day and stood up for to read." The example of the Apostle Paul, Acts. 17:2 "And Paul, as 'his manor was', went into them, and 3 Sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures." This was a period of 3 weeks. Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath and said it was made for man. Mark 2:27,28 "And he said unto them, the Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath, therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the Sabbath". Sabbath keepers understand this passage to mean that the Sabbath was given to the human race as a memorial for all mankind, from creation, to His 2nd coming; and as Isa. 66: 22,23, even beyond that.
Jesus instructed the disciples to pray that their flight from Jerusalem, before it's destruction, might not be in the winter or "on the Sabbath day". This was a two headed prophecy in that; 1.the Sabbath would still be being kept; 2. That Jerusalem would be destroyed over "35 years" after the death of Jesus. Matt. 24:20 "But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the Sabbath Day".
On the preparation day, after the crucifixion, the women followed after in Luke 23: 54-56, "After that day was the preparation, and the Sabbath drew on. And the women also, which came with him from Galilee, followed after, and beheld the sepulcher, and how His body was laid. And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the Sabbath Day, 'according to the commandment' ". Prudence suggests to me that this was the Sabbath Commandment according to the 10 commandments, which means it was not nailed to the cross.
The Sabbath is the day before the first day of the week, Matt. 28:1 "In the end of the Sabbath as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulcher." The day before (Friday) the Sabbath is the preparation, that is the day before the Sabbath. To me, simple reason would deduce, that if Christ would have wanted the Sabbath changed from Sat. to Sun. He would have told these people so before He was hung on the cross. Yet the Biblical text shows plainly that they were still keeping it as before.
Mark 16:1,2, "And when the Sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene and Mary, the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint Him. And very early in the morning the first day of the week they came unto the sepulcher at the rising of the sun". Jesus rose on Sunday, a fact we all acknowledge. But where is the new law that says Jesus changed the day? It should have been inscribed on the rock walls of the tomb form His resurrection finger; just like He did on the tablets of stone that He gave to Moses; but it was not there.
Acts 1:12 talks about a Sabbath days journey, Acts13:42,44 says the Apostle Paul speaks to the Jews and Gentiles in the synagogue on the Sabbath. Why, since he had them assembled in one place, didn't he declare the change form Sat. to Sun. was made then...,? Yet he didn't, even though he had the perfect opportunity.
Acts 16:13, we have the record of the women gathering for a prayer by the river side on the Sabbath day. Acts 18:4, in the city of Corinth, the Apostle Paul reasoned in the Synagogue "every Sabbath", persuading the Jews and Gentiles. Here was another perfect opportunity for him to explain that the worship day's were going to be changed..., yet he didn't. Heb. 4:9
" There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God." God's creation rest day is mentioned as well, read vs. 1-13 to get the entire context. It is interesting that in Heb. 13:8 that Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever. He would not be able to say that if indeed he had made His 10 commandment laws invalid at the cross.
I think it important that we look at John 1, where according to John, the Word (Jesus), was with God from the beginning and was God. All things were made by Him, including the 4th commandment,(Jn. 1:1-3). Vs. 14 tells me that this same Word, was the only begotten of the father, which is Jesus Christ; a fact that is not in dispute. I find the same thought in Col. 1: 14-17, for here it is written that by Him, Jesus, were all things made that are in Heaven and earth; Also not a disputed fact. Heb.1:1-2 states, "God who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in times past unto the fathers by the prophets, hath in these last days spoken unto us by His Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds". Again, not an issue in dispute; But, it is plain at least to me, that God the father made all things through the Son. Jesus was the active agent in creation, so when He said the Sabbath was made for man, He was speaking about His own works of which man is a part of; therefore, the Sabbath day is Christ's day, truly the Lords day, made by the Lord, instituted at creation, by Jesus Christ.
Gen. 2:1-3, " Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. And on the Seventh day God (the Word, the Christ), ended His work which He had made; and He rested on the seventh day form all His work which He had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it ( made it Holy), because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made". Same language as used in the 4th commandment. The rest was not for God, because he does not grow tired, it was meant for His creation,( which at that time, man had not yet been created) which is why He sanctified it, for the future.
Now this begs several questions, most particularly since God does not need to rest, and the animals and insects do not rest or keep a Holy day, who could it be meant for. The only obvious answer was human kind.
Jesus in Matt. 12:1-12 found the people of Israel strictly (over strictly) keeping the Sabbath, and doing it in such a legalistic way as to make the Sabbath a burden. Many like to say that the Sabbath has been lost from time to time, this is not so. Ex. 16:4,5,21-30,35, shows that Israel still knew when the Sabbath came after they left Egypt, before the 10 Commandments were given. It was not lost in the promised land ,(jer. 17:24-26). Amos 8:4-6; Isa. 58:13,14; 2kings 4:23; 1Chron.9:32; Isa. 56: 2-6. The Sabbath was not lost during the 70 years captivity, which is interesting because they were sent into captivity For breaking the Sabbath. Jer.17; Neh. 13:35. And when they returned from Babylonian captivity, they were keeping the Sabbath.
Since the time of Christ, no time has been lost. The calendar we use today, with some modifications regarding months, which did not affect the weekly cycle, was in use over 40 years before Christ, by the authority of Julius Caesar. And was continued on by the Catholic Church, and to this day. Astronomy says there is no lost time, Almanacs, histories, encyclopedias, dictionaries, all the laws of Christendom, the customs of Islam, the Greek and Roman Catholic Church, and the Jews in all the world.., all testify that we have not lost track of the days of the week.
Romans 7:7 Paul says," What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God Forbid. Nay, I had not known sin but by the law; for I had not know lust except the law had said, thou shalt not covet." Vs 12 "Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.: Vs. 14 says "For we know that the law is spiritual; but I am carnal, sold under sin". If indeed the law had been done away with, he should have declared it too indeed be carnal, as were the temp. laws of Moses, which were nailed to the cross. But he clarified his statement by saying they are Spiritual. In fact he used the words "we know", as a means to underscore the fact.
Acts 20:27, Paul said," For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God." Now it should be noted that there is no record in all of Paul's writing that he ever instructed the people "not" to observe God's Sabbath which Christ made at creation or to inaugurate some other day in it's place. In none of his writings did he ever mention any change of the Sabbath; which to my understanding, would make such a change, not a part of Gods counsel; but rather a tradition of mankind.
The Apostle had given the people all the counsel of God, that God had Given him. Paul never committed anything "against" the customs of God or His people, (Acts. 28:17). The Sabbath was a law which they first observed, but as history observes, the Jews had problems with keeping.
So when did the official change take place, and who did it? That's easy, and you need look no farther than the Catholic Church. They gladly take the credit for changing the day of worship from Sat. to Sun., and they have written extensively on it. They alone claim the Sole right for the change, and also claim that this right was bestowed upon them by their first Pope, the Apostle Peter as conferred to Him By Christ. Of course there is not Biblical record as such, but then the Catholics have never adhered to "So la Scriptora". Their records state that Official total world church changeover was made in the year A.D 364 through the Council of Laodicea under the watchful tutelage of the Emperor Constantine. There were some earlier Sabbath Sunday changes, but they were sporadic and limited. Even Constantine made an earlier law to the same effect in A.D 321; And it is of interest to note that Bishop Eusebius in 270-338, worked closely with Constantine, and made these remarks. "All things whatsoever that it was duty to do on the Sabbath, these We have transferred to the Lord's Day". The day which is called Sunday. If you want to read more, the Catholic Encyclopedia can be found on line, and if I were permitted to post a link here I would; but the rules of this forum state I cannot. So do a Google search, if you are interested, but be aware this is a massive site, be prepared to do some reading.
There are always some who like to use texts the appear on the surface to justify the day or worship change. Col. 2:16'17 is one that gets a fair amount of airing. There are many different types of Sabbaths in the Bible, and if one is not careful, they can get mixed up and placed where they don't belong. The 7th day Sabbath is part of the 10 Commandments, the yearly Sabbaths relate specifically to the history of Israel. Col. 2:16,17 specifically states," Let no one judge you regarding sabbath days which are a Shadow of things to come. Heb. 10:1 connects the law of shadows with animal sacrifice. Ezek. 45:17 uses the same expressions in the exact same order as Col. 2:16,17, and connects it all with the ceremonial systems of feasts and sacrifices( meat offerings, drink offerings, feasts, new moons, and Sabbaths to make reconciliation for the house of Israel). Lev. 23:5-32 discusses the ceremonial Sabbaths, and there were a lot of them. These annual Sabbaths were intimately connected to events foreshadowing Christ's death and His Second Coming. They were designed by God to be the shadows or pointers to the coming Messiah. Lev. 23:37 uses the same language of Col. 2: 16,17 to describe the ceremonial Sabbaths. Vs. 38 distinguishes the ceremonial Sabbaths from the 7th day Sabbath by using the expression,"Beside the sabbaths of the Lord." Since Christ has come, the sabbaths of the ceremonial law have found their fulfillment in Him. The 7Th day Sabbath continues to lead us back to the Creator God who made us. And it will be a distinguishing sign of relationship to him; read Ezek. 20: 12,20, another old test./covenant "future" statement, then also read Rev. 14:12. Now there is a new covenant verse, at the very end of the Bible.
Then there is Rom. 14:5, a favorite Sunday worshiper text; "One esteems on day above another, another esteems every day alike. Let every man be persuaded in His own mind." And the question that always follows is." Really , what difference does a day make?" Vs. 5, and 6 say nothing about either worship on the Sabbath. They simply talk about regarding a day. To say this particular day is the Sabbath is an unwarranted assumption. Rom. 14:1 sets the time for the entire passage indicating that the discussion focuses on "doubt and disputations", or disputes on doubtful matters. Is the Seventh day Sabbath set apart by God at creation(Gen. 2:1-3) and placed within the heart of the 10 commandment law written by God, a doubtful matter? Not by this writer. If it were, then the entire 10 should be placed in doubt as well. The key is found in verse 6 which states, "He that regards the day regards it unto the Lord, and he that regaredth not the day regards it not to the Lord. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord for he giveth God thanks, and he that eateth not to the Lord, he eateth not for he giveth God Thanks". The issue revolved around fast days, and old ceremonial sabbath days, the Jews wanted to impress upon the gentiles the old Mosaic laws, and Paul was telling them that those were no longer important.
Personally, I get a kick out of the argument that the day doesn't matter, when every Sunday Christian knows that it does. If the wisdom of this argument were followed, then Sunday worshipers would be worshiping on Monday or Tuesday, or any other day. Really though, it's just another way to make an argument, because everyone knows that the argument will always center on Sunday, and Sunday alone.
Then there are the 1st day passages and in Acts 20:7, Matt.28:1, Mark 16:1,2,9 ,Luke 24:1, John 20: 1,19 ,1Cor. 16:1,2; Where's the change from Sat. to Sun., especially with Acts 20:7, as the New English Bible confirms this as a Saturday night meeting, with Paul traveling on Sunday. If Paul considered Sunday sacred in honor of the resurrection, why would he spend the entire day traveling and not worshiping?
Speaking for myself, the 7th day Sabbath is a done deal; as I know most of you who read this are also sold on Sunday worship. As for Galatians 3:1-29, what was being discussed here was not the 10 commandments, but the Abrahamic/Mosaic laws; the Ceremonial, civil and health laws. These were done away with at the cross, as is the record of your's and mine sins, truly this is good news. Study this out in it's original Greek; And for those who believe that faith is all that is need. I would refer you to the book of James 1:19-27, chpt. 2: 14-26, study this carefully. Notice vs. 14 of chpt. 2 where is says,"What does it profit , my brethren when some one says he has faith but does not Have works, can faith save him"? And there are more jewels in this book to be harvested.
I have much more to say on this topic, but will leave that for another time. Until then, May the love of Jesus live in you personally, both to will and to do of His good pleasure!
Blessings;
Rick
What follows are some of "my" reasons for Sabbath keeping: In Ex. 20:8-11, and Deut. 5:12-15, we find the words," Remember the Sabbath day to keep it Holy. Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work: but the seventh day is the Sabbath or the Lord thy God...., it goes on the say that the Lord Blessed this day and Made it Holy.
Ex. 31:16,17, I find where the Sabbath was a sign to the children of Israel that God made heaven and earth. In Eze. 20: 12-20, I find where the Sabbath is a sign of God as a Sanctifier. Isa. 56:1-2 states that a blessing was pronounced upon Sabbath keepers. Also in Isa. 58:12,14, there is a Prophecy of Sabbath reform. Isa. 66:22,23 says that the Sabbath will be observed in the Earth made new; Which is an interesting admission and Prophecy, since that is future, or yet to come, meaning it has not as of yet taken place.
I realize that there are those who will chide me for using Old Testament scripture as in meaning Old Covenant, and that it is no longer applicable for us today. And yet I have read with interest some posters using it rather heavily; Clearly the Sabbath is not done away with in the earth made new. This is not meant as personal sarcasm towards any person or persons, but merely as a statement of fact; more on this later.
Looking over in the New Covenant scriptures, it says in Lk. 4:16, "And He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up, and His custom was, he went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day and stood up for to read." The example of the Apostle Paul, Acts. 17:2 "And Paul, as 'his manor was', went into them, and 3 Sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures." This was a period of 3 weeks. Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath and said it was made for man. Mark 2:27,28 "And he said unto them, the Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath, therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the Sabbath". Sabbath keepers understand this passage to mean that the Sabbath was given to the human race as a memorial for all mankind, from creation, to His 2nd coming; and as Isa. 66: 22,23, even beyond that.
Jesus instructed the disciples to pray that their flight from Jerusalem, before it's destruction, might not be in the winter or "on the Sabbath day". This was a two headed prophecy in that; 1.the Sabbath would still be being kept; 2. That Jerusalem would be destroyed over "35 years" after the death of Jesus. Matt. 24:20 "But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the Sabbath Day".
On the preparation day, after the crucifixion, the women followed after in Luke 23: 54-56, "After that day was the preparation, and the Sabbath drew on. And the women also, which came with him from Galilee, followed after, and beheld the sepulcher, and how His body was laid. And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the Sabbath Day, 'according to the commandment' ". Prudence suggests to me that this was the Sabbath Commandment according to the 10 commandments, which means it was not nailed to the cross.
The Sabbath is the day before the first day of the week, Matt. 28:1 "In the end of the Sabbath as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulcher." The day before (Friday) the Sabbath is the preparation, that is the day before the Sabbath. To me, simple reason would deduce, that if Christ would have wanted the Sabbath changed from Sat. to Sun. He would have told these people so before He was hung on the cross. Yet the Biblical text shows plainly that they were still keeping it as before.
Mark 16:1,2, "And when the Sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene and Mary, the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint Him. And very early in the morning the first day of the week they came unto the sepulcher at the rising of the sun". Jesus rose on Sunday, a fact we all acknowledge. But where is the new law that says Jesus changed the day? It should have been inscribed on the rock walls of the tomb form His resurrection finger; just like He did on the tablets of stone that He gave to Moses; but it was not there.
Acts 1:12 talks about a Sabbath days journey, Acts13:42,44 says the Apostle Paul speaks to the Jews and Gentiles in the synagogue on the Sabbath. Why, since he had them assembled in one place, didn't he declare the change form Sat. to Sun. was made then...,? Yet he didn't, even though he had the perfect opportunity.
Acts 16:13, we have the record of the women gathering for a prayer by the river side on the Sabbath day. Acts 18:4, in the city of Corinth, the Apostle Paul reasoned in the Synagogue "every Sabbath", persuading the Jews and Gentiles. Here was another perfect opportunity for him to explain that the worship day's were going to be changed..., yet he didn't. Heb. 4:9
" There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God." God's creation rest day is mentioned as well, read vs. 1-13 to get the entire context. It is interesting that in Heb. 13:8 that Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever. He would not be able to say that if indeed he had made His 10 commandment laws invalid at the cross.
I think it important that we look at John 1, where according to John, the Word (Jesus), was with God from the beginning and was God. All things were made by Him, including the 4th commandment,(Jn. 1:1-3). Vs. 14 tells me that this same Word, was the only begotten of the father, which is Jesus Christ; a fact that is not in dispute. I find the same thought in Col. 1: 14-17, for here it is written that by Him, Jesus, were all things made that are in Heaven and earth; Also not a disputed fact. Heb.1:1-2 states, "God who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in times past unto the fathers by the prophets, hath in these last days spoken unto us by His Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds". Again, not an issue in dispute; But, it is plain at least to me, that God the father made all things through the Son. Jesus was the active agent in creation, so when He said the Sabbath was made for man, He was speaking about His own works of which man is a part of; therefore, the Sabbath day is Christ's day, truly the Lords day, made by the Lord, instituted at creation, by Jesus Christ.
Gen. 2:1-3, " Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. And on the Seventh day God (the Word, the Christ), ended His work which He had made; and He rested on the seventh day form all His work which He had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it ( made it Holy), because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made". Same language as used in the 4th commandment. The rest was not for God, because he does not grow tired, it was meant for His creation,( which at that time, man had not yet been created) which is why He sanctified it, for the future.
Now this begs several questions, most particularly since God does not need to rest, and the animals and insects do not rest or keep a Holy day, who could it be meant for. The only obvious answer was human kind.
Jesus in Matt. 12:1-12 found the people of Israel strictly (over strictly) keeping the Sabbath, and doing it in such a legalistic way as to make the Sabbath a burden. Many like to say that the Sabbath has been lost from time to time, this is not so. Ex. 16:4,5,21-30,35, shows that Israel still knew when the Sabbath came after they left Egypt, before the 10 Commandments were given. It was not lost in the promised land ,(jer. 17:24-26). Amos 8:4-6; Isa. 58:13,14; 2kings 4:23; 1Chron.9:32; Isa. 56: 2-6. The Sabbath was not lost during the 70 years captivity, which is interesting because they were sent into captivity For breaking the Sabbath. Jer.17; Neh. 13:35. And when they returned from Babylonian captivity, they were keeping the Sabbath.
Since the time of Christ, no time has been lost. The calendar we use today, with some modifications regarding months, which did not affect the weekly cycle, was in use over 40 years before Christ, by the authority of Julius Caesar. And was continued on by the Catholic Church, and to this day. Astronomy says there is no lost time, Almanacs, histories, encyclopedias, dictionaries, all the laws of Christendom, the customs of Islam, the Greek and Roman Catholic Church, and the Jews in all the world.., all testify that we have not lost track of the days of the week.
Romans 7:7 Paul says," What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God Forbid. Nay, I had not known sin but by the law; for I had not know lust except the law had said, thou shalt not covet." Vs 12 "Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.: Vs. 14 says "For we know that the law is spiritual; but I am carnal, sold under sin". If indeed the law had been done away with, he should have declared it too indeed be carnal, as were the temp. laws of Moses, which were nailed to the cross. But he clarified his statement by saying they are Spiritual. In fact he used the words "we know", as a means to underscore the fact.
Acts 20:27, Paul said," For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God." Now it should be noted that there is no record in all of Paul's writing that he ever instructed the people "not" to observe God's Sabbath which Christ made at creation or to inaugurate some other day in it's place. In none of his writings did he ever mention any change of the Sabbath; which to my understanding, would make such a change, not a part of Gods counsel; but rather a tradition of mankind.
The Apostle had given the people all the counsel of God, that God had Given him. Paul never committed anything "against" the customs of God or His people, (Acts. 28:17). The Sabbath was a law which they first observed, but as history observes, the Jews had problems with keeping.
So when did the official change take place, and who did it? That's easy, and you need look no farther than the Catholic Church. They gladly take the credit for changing the day of worship from Sat. to Sun., and they have written extensively on it. They alone claim the Sole right for the change, and also claim that this right was bestowed upon them by their first Pope, the Apostle Peter as conferred to Him By Christ. Of course there is not Biblical record as such, but then the Catholics have never adhered to "So la Scriptora". Their records state that Official total world church changeover was made in the year A.D 364 through the Council of Laodicea under the watchful tutelage of the Emperor Constantine. There were some earlier Sabbath Sunday changes, but they were sporadic and limited. Even Constantine made an earlier law to the same effect in A.D 321; And it is of interest to note that Bishop Eusebius in 270-338, worked closely with Constantine, and made these remarks. "All things whatsoever that it was duty to do on the Sabbath, these We have transferred to the Lord's Day". The day which is called Sunday. If you want to read more, the Catholic Encyclopedia can be found on line, and if I were permitted to post a link here I would; but the rules of this forum state I cannot. So do a Google search, if you are interested, but be aware this is a massive site, be prepared to do some reading.
There are always some who like to use texts the appear on the surface to justify the day or worship change. Col. 2:16'17 is one that gets a fair amount of airing. There are many different types of Sabbaths in the Bible, and if one is not careful, they can get mixed up and placed where they don't belong. The 7th day Sabbath is part of the 10 Commandments, the yearly Sabbaths relate specifically to the history of Israel. Col. 2:16,17 specifically states," Let no one judge you regarding sabbath days which are a Shadow of things to come. Heb. 10:1 connects the law of shadows with animal sacrifice. Ezek. 45:17 uses the same expressions in the exact same order as Col. 2:16,17, and connects it all with the ceremonial systems of feasts and sacrifices( meat offerings, drink offerings, feasts, new moons, and Sabbaths to make reconciliation for the house of Israel). Lev. 23:5-32 discusses the ceremonial Sabbaths, and there were a lot of them. These annual Sabbaths were intimately connected to events foreshadowing Christ's death and His Second Coming. They were designed by God to be the shadows or pointers to the coming Messiah. Lev. 23:37 uses the same language of Col. 2: 16,17 to describe the ceremonial Sabbaths. Vs. 38 distinguishes the ceremonial Sabbaths from the 7th day Sabbath by using the expression,"Beside the sabbaths of the Lord." Since Christ has come, the sabbaths of the ceremonial law have found their fulfillment in Him. The 7Th day Sabbath continues to lead us back to the Creator God who made us. And it will be a distinguishing sign of relationship to him; read Ezek. 20: 12,20, another old test./covenant "future" statement, then also read Rev. 14:12. Now there is a new covenant verse, at the very end of the Bible.
Then there is Rom. 14:5, a favorite Sunday worshiper text; "One esteems on day above another, another esteems every day alike. Let every man be persuaded in His own mind." And the question that always follows is." Really , what difference does a day make?" Vs. 5, and 6 say nothing about either worship on the Sabbath. They simply talk about regarding a day. To say this particular day is the Sabbath is an unwarranted assumption. Rom. 14:1 sets the time for the entire passage indicating that the discussion focuses on "doubt and disputations", or disputes on doubtful matters. Is the Seventh day Sabbath set apart by God at creation(Gen. 2:1-3) and placed within the heart of the 10 commandment law written by God, a doubtful matter? Not by this writer. If it were, then the entire 10 should be placed in doubt as well. The key is found in verse 6 which states, "He that regards the day regards it unto the Lord, and he that regaredth not the day regards it not to the Lord. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord for he giveth God thanks, and he that eateth not to the Lord, he eateth not for he giveth God Thanks". The issue revolved around fast days, and old ceremonial sabbath days, the Jews wanted to impress upon the gentiles the old Mosaic laws, and Paul was telling them that those were no longer important.
Personally, I get a kick out of the argument that the day doesn't matter, when every Sunday Christian knows that it does. If the wisdom of this argument were followed, then Sunday worshipers would be worshiping on Monday or Tuesday, or any other day. Really though, it's just another way to make an argument, because everyone knows that the argument will always center on Sunday, and Sunday alone.
Then there are the 1st day passages and in Acts 20:7, Matt.28:1, Mark 16:1,2,9 ,Luke 24:1, John 20: 1,19 ,1Cor. 16:1,2; Where's the change from Sat. to Sun., especially with Acts 20:7, as the New English Bible confirms this as a Saturday night meeting, with Paul traveling on Sunday. If Paul considered Sunday sacred in honor of the resurrection, why would he spend the entire day traveling and not worshiping?
Speaking for myself, the 7th day Sabbath is a done deal; as I know most of you who read this are also sold on Sunday worship. As for Galatians 3:1-29, what was being discussed here was not the 10 commandments, but the Abrahamic/Mosaic laws; the Ceremonial, civil and health laws. These were done away with at the cross, as is the record of your's and mine sins, truly this is good news. Study this out in it's original Greek; And for those who believe that faith is all that is need. I would refer you to the book of James 1:19-27, chpt. 2: 14-26, study this carefully. Notice vs. 14 of chpt. 2 where is says,"What does it profit , my brethren when some one says he has faith but does not Have works, can faith save him"? And there are more jewels in this book to be harvested.
I have much more to say on this topic, but will leave that for another time. Until then, May the love of Jesus live in you personally, both to will and to do of His good pleasure!
Blessings;
Rick
aremessenger said:
Might I also add there is no record in the New Testament of God blessing the keeping of the seventh day sabbath either. If someone wants to observe a certain day above another, I say let them but it doesn't make them anymore pleasing to God than those who don't. Everything concerning the OLD covenant was and is forever satisfied by Christ and His sacrifice, There is a New covenant which holds the promise of salvation. To observe anything other than Christ, to me, would seem ludicrous.
Last edited:
aremessenger
Member
- Joined
- Jan 22, 2006
- Messages
- 19
Ludicrous is in the eye of the beholder Jiggyfly, and really, I am comfortable letting God decide that one. And as I demonstrated, not exactly everything about the old covenant is obsolete. As for your addition, there might not be a record either "for" or "against". But we shall run with that one later. Have a good nights rest. Well spar some more later.
Regards;
Rick
Regards;
Rick
Coconut
Member
- Joined
- Feb 17, 2005
- Messages
- 4,663
Rick, for all your expounding on the old covenant, and your attempts to make it correlate with the new covenant, you can`t seem to see where the cross intervenes. If you are comfortable letting God decide, then let us examine His summation in comparison to yours;
In 1 Peter 3:18, how did Peter explain what God has done to bring men to Himself?
1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
According to John 14:6, is there any other way to bridge the gap?
As for the distinguishing sign of relationship to him, God decided that one too;
Joh 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
In 1 Peter 3:18, how did Peter explain what God has done to bring men to Himself?
1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
According to John 14:6, is there any other way to bridge the gap?
As for the distinguishing sign of relationship to him, God decided that one too;
Joh 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
4givN&hope4U
Member
- Joined
- Jan 21, 2006
- Messages
- 102
Very good question. Wonderful explanation by Mediator "Fellowservant".
Thanks for sharing. I read a lot and learn from you.
I have two friends that practice the keeping of the Sabbath: one does so on Sundays, the other does so on Saturdays. They do it unto the Lord, so I certainly wouldn't frown upon it, but "fellowservant" made some very good points.
4givN&hope4U
Thanks for sharing. I read a lot and learn from you.
I have two friends that practice the keeping of the Sabbath: one does so on Sundays, the other does so on Saturdays. They do it unto the Lord, so I certainly wouldn't frown upon it, but "fellowservant" made some very good points.
4givN&hope4U
Coconut
Member
- Joined
- Feb 17, 2005
- Messages
- 4,663
Jesus said in Mt.11:28: “Come unto me all you who labor and are heavy laden and I will give you rest.”
This 'rest' was not a day, but a person and relationship.
The “True Sabbath Rest” is found only in Our Lord Jesus Christ.
Paul's statement in Rom. 7:6 is crystal clear, “But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.”
2 Cor.3:8: If you have the spirit you don’t need the letter because it becomes a relationship
If Christ is our rest, why do some try to bring Gods people back to a place of unrest?
Recommended reading;
"What Sabbatarian's are not telling their own people and new converts about the law."
http://www.letusreason.org/7thDdir.htm
This 'rest' was not a day, but a person and relationship.
The “True Sabbath Rest” is found only in Our Lord Jesus Christ.
Paul's statement in Rom. 7:6 is crystal clear, “But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.”
2 Cor.3:8: If you have the spirit you don’t need the letter because it becomes a relationship
If Christ is our rest, why do some try to bring Gods people back to a place of unrest?
Recommended reading;
"What Sabbatarian's are not telling their own people and new converts about the law."
http://www.letusreason.org/7thDdir.htm
aremessenger
Member
- Joined
- Jan 22, 2006
- Messages
- 19
I think it only wise to remember that the only "Bible" that was available to the disciples, Apostles and for that matter Jesus, was the old Testament, and they referred to it "much", and "often". That is evident throughout the New Testament, that this is so. When Paul was correcting the Jews and Gentiles, he did so using the Old Testament, as did Peter and so on. It was their text and guide. What baffles me, is why people wish to debunk it as worthless, and useless, and done away with totally.
Parts of it found fulfillment in the life and death of Jesus Christ, and yet parts live on today. It is plain that some of our most loved N.T texts found their origin there. I was told today that I can't seem to see where the cross intervenes, that, for which was spoken, began in the Old Testament.
1Pet.3:15-17 is tied to vs. 18, as Christs example for suffering, which was for the final sacrifice for our sins. Jesus was the Lamb of God which took away the sins of the world. He died because the merits of the Mosaic law needed to be fulfilled in type, for which he was. The sacrificial system was never meant to be permanent, it was the anti type or "imperfect", to bridge the gap to the perfect sacrifice-Jesus. The book of Hebrews spells this out quite nicely.
The NIV translation says of Vs. 16 " Keeping a clear conscience, so those who speak maliciously against "your good behavior" in Christ may be ashamed of their slander". Huh, what kind of good behavior, and where did that come from? If you were to ask me, I'd say by being obedient to something.
Jn. 14:6, is the way it must be, no person can be saved by keeping any of the 10 commandments, and yet I know of some hard shelled Sunday Christians who are serious about them. Isa. 64:6 says that "all of our righteousness is as filthy rags. Phil. 3:9 is also quite plain on this point as well.
1Jn.2:29 talks about what it means to be a child of God, Vs.28 " And now dear children, continue in Him, so that when He appears we may be confident and unashamed before Him at His coming. Vs.29 If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone who does what is "right" has been born of Him". Huh, what do you know about that, so what, might I ask is wrong with doing what is right? It is said that those who do, are born of Him.
Acts. 10:34-35, coupled with Rom. 3: 21-31 & Rom. 4:13-15, is discussing the laws of Abraham and Moses..., you know.., circumcision and all the rest. Yet Abraham was counted worthy because he had faith in the works God told Him to perform. Rom. 10:4, notice what vs. 3 says, these people were trying to establish their own form of Righteousness, instead of submitting to Gods. My bible which is written by Zondervan publishers, has a foot note with texts leading to Leviticus 18:5, obvious these folks had problems.
I have always thought 1 Jn.3 4-24 was good for every Christian to read, and read, and read. Notice especially Vs 6, 7, 9, 10, 22, and to wrap it up Vs. 24 " Those who obey his commands live in Him, and He in them." Pay close attention to what comes next, " And this is How we know that He lives in us: We know it by the Spirit He gave us. NIV
Like what is quoted in Isa. 55:8, "No Christian has a right to stand on anything besides the Word of God.
I say Amen to that. But before I wrap this up there is one more, Jn.14:23-24, " Jesus replied, If any one loves me , he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me". Now to me that is rather ominous. It's just a whole lot of obeying , and doing what is right and following commands.
And yet if one reads the writings on Grace and faith, coupled with these texts, and many others like them, it all correlates quite nicely with the new covenant, and bridges the gap, or so to speak. More on this later.
Rick
Parts of it found fulfillment in the life and death of Jesus Christ, and yet parts live on today. It is plain that some of our most loved N.T texts found their origin there. I was told today that I can't seem to see where the cross intervenes, that, for which was spoken, began in the Old Testament.
1Pet.3:15-17 is tied to vs. 18, as Christs example for suffering, which was for the final sacrifice for our sins. Jesus was the Lamb of God which took away the sins of the world. He died because the merits of the Mosaic law needed to be fulfilled in type, for which he was. The sacrificial system was never meant to be permanent, it was the anti type or "imperfect", to bridge the gap to the perfect sacrifice-Jesus. The book of Hebrews spells this out quite nicely.
The NIV translation says of Vs. 16 " Keeping a clear conscience, so those who speak maliciously against "your good behavior" in Christ may be ashamed of their slander". Huh, what kind of good behavior, and where did that come from? If you were to ask me, I'd say by being obedient to something.
Jn. 14:6, is the way it must be, no person can be saved by keeping any of the 10 commandments, and yet I know of some hard shelled Sunday Christians who are serious about them. Isa. 64:6 says that "all of our righteousness is as filthy rags. Phil. 3:9 is also quite plain on this point as well.
1Jn.2:29 talks about what it means to be a child of God, Vs.28 " And now dear children, continue in Him, so that when He appears we may be confident and unashamed before Him at His coming. Vs.29 If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone who does what is "right" has been born of Him". Huh, what do you know about that, so what, might I ask is wrong with doing what is right? It is said that those who do, are born of Him.
Acts. 10:34-35, coupled with Rom. 3: 21-31 & Rom. 4:13-15, is discussing the laws of Abraham and Moses..., you know.., circumcision and all the rest. Yet Abraham was counted worthy because he had faith in the works God told Him to perform. Rom. 10:4, notice what vs. 3 says, these people were trying to establish their own form of Righteousness, instead of submitting to Gods. My bible which is written by Zondervan publishers, has a foot note with texts leading to Leviticus 18:5, obvious these folks had problems.
I have always thought 1 Jn.3 4-24 was good for every Christian to read, and read, and read. Notice especially Vs 6, 7, 9, 10, 22, and to wrap it up Vs. 24 " Those who obey his commands live in Him, and He in them." Pay close attention to what comes next, " And this is How we know that He lives in us: We know it by the Spirit He gave us. NIV
Like what is quoted in Isa. 55:8, "No Christian has a right to stand on anything besides the Word of God.
I say Amen to that. But before I wrap this up there is one more, Jn.14:23-24, " Jesus replied, If any one loves me , he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me". Now to me that is rather ominous. It's just a whole lot of obeying , and doing what is right and following commands.
And yet if one reads the writings on Grace and faith, coupled with these texts, and many others like them, it all correlates quite nicely with the new covenant, and bridges the gap, or so to speak. More on this later.
Rick
The Old Covenant was a contract given by God to man, with a set of regulations to adhere to in order to enjoy the benifits of being God's people.
If Christ came and ratified the Old Covenant than there would not be a New Covenant, but a New admendment to the Old Covenant. Therefore there would be NO New Covenant.
But Christ came and fulfilled or satisfied the Old Covenant (contract) and the Father then gave us a New Covenant(contract). Now some of the commands of the New may be the same as the Old, but that does not reinstate the Old Covenant. The Old Covenant (contract) has been satisfied, that means it has been stamped "paid in full" and is filed away.
But in order to enjoy fellowship with the Father we must enter into agreement with the New Covenant which is Christ. We must accept what He has done for us (paying our debt) or we are not in agreement with the New Covenant.
In order to more fully understand the New Covenant and how much better it is than the Old Covenant, we must have an increase of our revelation of who Christ is. Everthing God has purposed in the History of man has pointed to His Son, Jesus the Christ, He is the Fulfillment of All things. The will of God is that His Son shall be All and in All, which requires either the fulfillment or anullment of all other things. And this has been God's plan from the begining( for His Son to be All and in All).
May God grant us all the ability by the Holy Spirit to grasp a better understanding of who Jesus is.Amen.
*Reference the letter to Colosians.
If Christ came and ratified the Old Covenant than there would not be a New Covenant, but a New admendment to the Old Covenant. Therefore there would be NO New Covenant.
But Christ came and fulfilled or satisfied the Old Covenant (contract) and the Father then gave us a New Covenant(contract). Now some of the commands of the New may be the same as the Old, but that does not reinstate the Old Covenant. The Old Covenant (contract) has been satisfied, that means it has been stamped "paid in full" and is filed away.
But in order to enjoy fellowship with the Father we must enter into agreement with the New Covenant which is Christ. We must accept what He has done for us (paying our debt) or we are not in agreement with the New Covenant.
In order to more fully understand the New Covenant and how much better it is than the Old Covenant, we must have an increase of our revelation of who Christ is. Everthing God has purposed in the History of man has pointed to His Son, Jesus the Christ, He is the Fulfillment of All things. The will of God is that His Son shall be All and in All, which requires either the fulfillment or anullment of all other things. And this has been God's plan from the begining( for His Son to be All and in All).
May God grant us all the ability by the Holy Spirit to grasp a better understanding of who Jesus is.Amen.
*Reference the letter to Colosians.
Last edited:
Jesuslovesu
Member
- Joined
- Nov 22, 2004
- Messages
- 1,125
hmmm... so if I go to church on the "wrong" day I will go to hell? hmmm... is this something taught by a man or God? Have you thought that maybe its for you but not everyone?
I want to tell you this I go to Church everyday.. because I am a part of the Church I am in the body of Christ and NO building... no stage... no pew... is.
Now if the statement is not going to a building but taking the time to spend with God well shouldnt you do that EVERY day?
Sometimes we get caught up in all the rules....or what we see as the rules
Joh 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
Now please dont start with the whole well what about this or what about that.. People should know by now and if not dont worry you will. Seek God's guidence not man's and read the scripture and meditate on it.
Many things are way to hard for people to understand maybe to meaty.. There are many many things that I dont understand.. Does that mean I jump up and down and say this is what I think now I am right and you are wrong! No! Pray for them and pray for yourself that understanding and growth will happen..
Where is grace here? You have to do this you have to do that ! How free is that? Christ wants you to do things in LOVE for HIM not out of obligations to rules (because how really is it following if you are being made to? )
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Joyfully ~ Jlu
I want to tell you this I go to Church everyday.. because I am a part of the Church I am in the body of Christ and NO building... no stage... no pew... is.
Now if the statement is not going to a building but taking the time to spend with God well shouldnt you do that EVERY day?
Sometimes we get caught up in all the rules....or what we see as the rules
Joh 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
Now please dont start with the whole well what about this or what about that.. People should know by now and if not dont worry you will. Seek God's guidence not man's and read the scripture and meditate on it.
Many things are way to hard for people to understand maybe to meaty.. There are many many things that I dont understand.. Does that mean I jump up and down and say this is what I think now I am right and you are wrong! No! Pray for them and pray for yourself that understanding and growth will happen..
Where is grace here? You have to do this you have to do that ! How free is that? Christ wants you to do things in LOVE for HIM not out of obligations to rules (because how really is it following if you are being made to? )
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Joyfully ~ Jlu
Coconut
Member
- Joined
- Feb 17, 2005
- Messages
- 4,663
That is spirit-filled preaching sister!
Rick the OT is not worthless, and useless, and done away with totally, and none of us have suggested it is...but it is the OLD testament, (old will of God) and we don`t live in the old anymore, we live in the NEW, and only the New Testament (new will of God) applies to us today.
"May God grant us all the ability by the Holy Spirit to grasp a better understanding of who Jesus is.Amen." and AMEN!
Rick the OT is not worthless, and useless, and done away with totally, and none of us have suggested it is...but it is the OLD testament, (old will of God) and we don`t live in the old anymore, we live in the NEW, and only the New Testament (new will of God) applies to us today.
"May God grant us all the ability by the Holy Spirit to grasp a better understanding of who Jesus is.Amen." and AMEN!
aremessenger
Member
- Joined
- Jan 22, 2006
- Messages
- 19
Good to see so many responding and discussing, it shows that all are engaged and interested in discussion; Ah freedom of expression , it doesn't get any better than this, let's make good use of it.
I am also glad that Hold fast is here to help me out, His post has taken care of some of what I was going to write about next. Which means I can go on to some other things, I think are important in this conversation.
I think it important here to point out that I believe the Tablets of Stone were a "part" of the Old Covenant, just for the sake of argument. And so was the earthly sanctuary; for quick ref. look at Heb. 9:1-4. The laws on the other hand that were written on the stone, were not integral to the first Covenant. This seems quite obvious to me from such passages as those in James 2:8-11; Rom. 13:8-11; Ephesians 6:1-3; Romans 7:7
As for the New Covenant replacing the Old Covenant, there is usually a great deal of confusion concerning this topic. No one ever was saved by the sanctuary ceremonies in the old covenant. The blood of animals had no real cleansing power to cover and forgive sin. The old covenant was about tangible ceremonies that you could see, hear, feel, and smell, and the Jews were pro-active participants.
They could see the sanctuary with the priests who administered in their behalf's. The old covenant could not save a thing, it was meant as an illustration only, which is why it was temporary. The Law at that time required ceremonies, and there were penalties for disregarding them; and yet it was still only an illustration. As Heb.10 states: The law was only a shadow of the good things that were to come, not the realities themselves. And because of this, it could never have a sanctifying influence for those who drew near to worship. This was the cermonial law.
So what was the illustration of the first covenant? "The ministry of High Priesthood of Jesus in the Heavenly Sanctuary. Because of this, none of us has to go through the motions of killing an animal, and then confessing our sins over it. The first covenant brought into the realm of the concrete, that which would have otherwise been entirely abstract- what the New Covenant was about".
To me this must include the law of the 10 commandments. The promise of the New Covenant is that it is to be written upon our hearts and minds. There were many laws written by the Jews, over 600 of them. However there were only 10 that were written by Gods own finger; and I also believe that these laws are summed up as "Love the Lord your God with all your heart", and , "Love your neighbor as your self.
We are born in slavery to sin and have no hope of freedom without a Saviour, so in that sense there is no possibility of any of us fulfilling the requirements of the law. But frankly I do not see what this has to do with the 4th commandment. How many of us would justify the sins of murder, adultery, lying, using the Lords name in vain, bowing down to idols, stealing, or bearing false witness? How many people do we know that go through life without sinning?, I know I am guilty. And yet I keep hearing that the 10 Commandments are under the old Covenant. If this is true, then why do we need Jesus at all..., we are free to do what we please aren't we.
It's funny, because when ever I ask those questions, I get an immediate.., "of course Not! So if that is indeed the case, then yes, I do say that keeping the Sabbath does not mean one is "under the law." The fact that the Sabbath existed during the time of the first covenant, and even that it was given as a sign between God and Israel during that time..., doesn't make it intrinsic to the first Covenant. One of the evidences for this is that God made the 7th day long before there was a covenant of any sort. I spelled that out in my first post on this subject. It existed "before" the law was written.
The tablets of Stone were a part of the first covenant( e.g. Heb. 9:1-4). But tablets of Stone do not fit well inside the human chest; and non Christians would never have such a thing period. However, the laws that were written on them were transferred to the new covenant, to be written on our Hearts ( 2 Corinthians 3:3)
So then, what is law?
Galatians 3:19 isn't so much asking the question in terms of a "definition" of the law as the "purpose" of the law. If a people are looking for what specific law is under discussion from any of Galatians 3, I think it's rather conclusive that it at least includes the 10 Commandments as "part" of the discussion. I mean, one can be over legalistic concerning those laws.
These laws do not, and can not make us righteous in and of themselves, but they do lead us to Christ. Their purpose is to draw our attention to the fact that, "although we may think we compare reasonably well with other people, we do NOT compare well with God.
"Salvation does not simply mean that God looks down and says, "I forgive you for your sins, and it's all right if you can't help continuing to live that way". Salvation is God forgiving our sins and changing our hearts so that they do come to reflect His character. That's the promise of the New Covenant". I know I am preaching to the choir on this one.
The New Covenant must have a legal purpose, it must have a purpose to build upon, and I think this is what Paul was getting at in Rom. 7 where he said that the law is Holy, and the commandment is Holy, righteous, and good,(vs.12) All under the New Covenant, imagine that. The solution is not to abolish the law( so that we can gratify our sinful desires with impunity), and also the solution is not to grit one's teeth and try to keep the law by our own strengths. The solution is to "live by the spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature" (Gal. 5:16).
Are you all still with me?
Rick
I am also glad that Hold fast is here to help me out, His post has taken care of some of what I was going to write about next. Which means I can go on to some other things, I think are important in this conversation.
I think it important here to point out that I believe the Tablets of Stone were a "part" of the Old Covenant, just for the sake of argument. And so was the earthly sanctuary; for quick ref. look at Heb. 9:1-4. The laws on the other hand that were written on the stone, were not integral to the first Covenant. This seems quite obvious to me from such passages as those in James 2:8-11; Rom. 13:8-11; Ephesians 6:1-3; Romans 7:7
As for the New Covenant replacing the Old Covenant, there is usually a great deal of confusion concerning this topic. No one ever was saved by the sanctuary ceremonies in the old covenant. The blood of animals had no real cleansing power to cover and forgive sin. The old covenant was about tangible ceremonies that you could see, hear, feel, and smell, and the Jews were pro-active participants.
They could see the sanctuary with the priests who administered in their behalf's. The old covenant could not save a thing, it was meant as an illustration only, which is why it was temporary. The Law at that time required ceremonies, and there were penalties for disregarding them; and yet it was still only an illustration. As Heb.10 states: The law was only a shadow of the good things that were to come, not the realities themselves. And because of this, it could never have a sanctifying influence for those who drew near to worship. This was the cermonial law.
So what was the illustration of the first covenant? "The ministry of High Priesthood of Jesus in the Heavenly Sanctuary. Because of this, none of us has to go through the motions of killing an animal, and then confessing our sins over it. The first covenant brought into the realm of the concrete, that which would have otherwise been entirely abstract- what the New Covenant was about".
To me this must include the law of the 10 commandments. The promise of the New Covenant is that it is to be written upon our hearts and minds. There were many laws written by the Jews, over 600 of them. However there were only 10 that were written by Gods own finger; and I also believe that these laws are summed up as "Love the Lord your God with all your heart", and , "Love your neighbor as your self.
We are born in slavery to sin and have no hope of freedom without a Saviour, so in that sense there is no possibility of any of us fulfilling the requirements of the law. But frankly I do not see what this has to do with the 4th commandment. How many of us would justify the sins of murder, adultery, lying, using the Lords name in vain, bowing down to idols, stealing, or bearing false witness? How many people do we know that go through life without sinning?, I know I am guilty. And yet I keep hearing that the 10 Commandments are under the old Covenant. If this is true, then why do we need Jesus at all..., we are free to do what we please aren't we.
It's funny, because when ever I ask those questions, I get an immediate.., "of course Not! So if that is indeed the case, then yes, I do say that keeping the Sabbath does not mean one is "under the law." The fact that the Sabbath existed during the time of the first covenant, and even that it was given as a sign between God and Israel during that time..., doesn't make it intrinsic to the first Covenant. One of the evidences for this is that God made the 7th day long before there was a covenant of any sort. I spelled that out in my first post on this subject. It existed "before" the law was written.
The tablets of Stone were a part of the first covenant( e.g. Heb. 9:1-4). But tablets of Stone do not fit well inside the human chest; and non Christians would never have such a thing period. However, the laws that were written on them were transferred to the new covenant, to be written on our Hearts ( 2 Corinthians 3:3)
So then, what is law?
Galatians 3:19 isn't so much asking the question in terms of a "definition" of the law as the "purpose" of the law. If a people are looking for what specific law is under discussion from any of Galatians 3, I think it's rather conclusive that it at least includes the 10 Commandments as "part" of the discussion. I mean, one can be over legalistic concerning those laws.
These laws do not, and can not make us righteous in and of themselves, but they do lead us to Christ. Their purpose is to draw our attention to the fact that, "although we may think we compare reasonably well with other people, we do NOT compare well with God.
"Salvation does not simply mean that God looks down and says, "I forgive you for your sins, and it's all right if you can't help continuing to live that way". Salvation is God forgiving our sins and changing our hearts so that they do come to reflect His character. That's the promise of the New Covenant". I know I am preaching to the choir on this one.
The New Covenant must have a legal purpose, it must have a purpose to build upon, and I think this is what Paul was getting at in Rom. 7 where he said that the law is Holy, and the commandment is Holy, righteous, and good,(vs.12) All under the New Covenant, imagine that. The solution is not to abolish the law( so that we can gratify our sinful desires with impunity), and also the solution is not to grit one's teeth and try to keep the law by our own strengths. The solution is to "live by the spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature" (Gal. 5:16).
Are you all still with me?
Rick
aremessenger
Member
- Joined
- Jan 22, 2006
- Messages
- 19
What about Righteousness by faith?, I am a fan of that subject no question about it. Rom. 3:21-22 " But now a righteousness from God, apart from the law, has been made known, to which the law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.
It's true that the New Testament does not spell out the importance of Sabbath keeping, however at the same time, I believe that there is much incidental evidence that believers were generally observing the Sabbath anyway Acts 13:27; 15:21; 18:4 suggests this. Saul, when he was persecuting the early church, seemed to think the synagogue was a good place to round them up-Acts 9:1-2; 22:19. I am assuming that it would be on the Sabbath that people would be in a synagogue.
In the book of James, he mentions the Royal law, and appeals to the Old Testament command. He does not appeal to his authority as an apostle of Christ, or to any particular words of Christ. He appeals explicitly to scripture, which implies that the scripture itself retained it's authority, that a command from scripture was valid. If the entire law had been nailed to the cross, or were in any other way the exclusive domain of the first covenant, James' appeal to it would not be valid. The command itself might still be a good one, however, the Law of the Old Testament would have no relevance to support this.
James is talking about the law that is written on our hearts, and the fact that he quotes 2 of the 10 Commandments to illustrate his point, further implies that the royal law is specifically expressed in the 10 Commandments. So I can not believe that the Sabbath was exclusively part of the first covenant. On the contrary, I believe it is part of the "royal" law found in Scripture, and describes an aspect of man's relationship to his God. Read all of the book of James. But notice James 2, especially vs.7-12. Vs 12 says "So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of Liberty. Looking over at James 1:25 " But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does".
While I am at it, John 14:15 says that love leads to obedience. Jesus said, " If you love me, keep my commandments". He certainly wasn't talking about the Mosaic ceremonial laws, or the civil laws, that leaves only the 10 Commandment laws. He was trying to impress upon Phillip that He was the Christ. In vs. 11 He says that they should have believed in Him just by virtue of His works. In 1Jn. 5:3 "For this is the love of God, that we keep His Commandments. And His commandments are not Burdensome.
There was no way this refers to the ceremonial or civil. 1Jn. 2:3,4,5," Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His Commandments. He who says, I know Him , and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in Him. But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in Him. By this we know that we are in Him". This is righteousness by faith as it is found by our faith in Jesus, who writes his law upon our hearts.
Then there is Rev. 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus".
" We can do all things through Christ who strengthens us", and this includes the Sabbath.
To all who read these posts, please do not be under the assumption that I believe that those who do not agree with me are lost. Nothing could be farther from the truth. I believe that people are saved according to what they know and understand, and if people are living up to the best of their understanding, they have no worries. I am under no allusions that I will convince any one of what I believe concerning the subjects of the law and the Sabbath. This is for information and sharing my reasons for believing the way I do. So be of Good cheer, Jesus loves us all, and wants all of us to love and come to a greater knowledge of Him.
Hope this in not to disjointed, I am starting to see double, it's off to bed for me.
In Christ.
Rick
It's true that the New Testament does not spell out the importance of Sabbath keeping, however at the same time, I believe that there is much incidental evidence that believers were generally observing the Sabbath anyway Acts 13:27; 15:21; 18:4 suggests this. Saul, when he was persecuting the early church, seemed to think the synagogue was a good place to round them up-Acts 9:1-2; 22:19. I am assuming that it would be on the Sabbath that people would be in a synagogue.
In the book of James, he mentions the Royal law, and appeals to the Old Testament command. He does not appeal to his authority as an apostle of Christ, or to any particular words of Christ. He appeals explicitly to scripture, which implies that the scripture itself retained it's authority, that a command from scripture was valid. If the entire law had been nailed to the cross, or were in any other way the exclusive domain of the first covenant, James' appeal to it would not be valid. The command itself might still be a good one, however, the Law of the Old Testament would have no relevance to support this.
James is talking about the law that is written on our hearts, and the fact that he quotes 2 of the 10 Commandments to illustrate his point, further implies that the royal law is specifically expressed in the 10 Commandments. So I can not believe that the Sabbath was exclusively part of the first covenant. On the contrary, I believe it is part of the "royal" law found in Scripture, and describes an aspect of man's relationship to his God. Read all of the book of James. But notice James 2, especially vs.7-12. Vs 12 says "So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of Liberty. Looking over at James 1:25 " But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does".
While I am at it, John 14:15 says that love leads to obedience. Jesus said, " If you love me, keep my commandments". He certainly wasn't talking about the Mosaic ceremonial laws, or the civil laws, that leaves only the 10 Commandment laws. He was trying to impress upon Phillip that He was the Christ. In vs. 11 He says that they should have believed in Him just by virtue of His works. In 1Jn. 5:3 "For this is the love of God, that we keep His Commandments. And His commandments are not Burdensome.
There was no way this refers to the ceremonial or civil. 1Jn. 2:3,4,5," Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His Commandments. He who says, I know Him , and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in Him. But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in Him. By this we know that we are in Him". This is righteousness by faith as it is found by our faith in Jesus, who writes his law upon our hearts.
Then there is Rev. 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus".
" We can do all things through Christ who strengthens us", and this includes the Sabbath.
To all who read these posts, please do not be under the assumption that I believe that those who do not agree with me are lost. Nothing could be farther from the truth. I believe that people are saved according to what they know and understand, and if people are living up to the best of their understanding, they have no worries. I am under no allusions that I will convince any one of what I believe concerning the subjects of the law and the Sabbath. This is for information and sharing my reasons for believing the way I do. So be of Good cheer, Jesus loves us all, and wants all of us to love and come to a greater knowledge of Him.
Hope this in not to disjointed, I am starting to see double, it's off to bed for me.
In Christ.
Rick
Do you need to be led to Christ after you have become born- again and He resides in you? NO.
Was Paul going to the synagogue to preach the good news to believers? NO.
Yes, we can do all things in Christ, Paul was talking about enduring hardship when he made this statement not participating in religious cerimony. If we take this statement out of context than we have permission to be disobedient. This is not the case, so please don't misuse scripture.
There has been more than enough scriptures listed in this thread for those reading it, to come to an understanding of the Truth concerning keeping the sabbath. The scriptures are clear, it's our vision that needs help. If anyone wants to keep the sabbath, I say let them do so.
But let it be known that it is for their own pleasure and is not what God has desired. It has been , is and always will be Jesus the Christ, the only begotten Son at the center of God's will, pleasure and desire.
Before Jesus came, people only had a shadow of Him to worship, but He has come now and dwells within all who believe on Him. You can not have fellowship with the Father outside of Christ.
If people want to worship God from a distance that is their choice. God has torn the veil, seems a shame to stay off at a distance when you can sit on His lap ( this was and is His choice).
Last edited:
Coconut
Member
- Joined
- Feb 17, 2005
- Messages
- 4,663
But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.
I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain. Gal 4:9
There is no pulpit on Talk Jesus for sabbath keepers, nor any of those wishing to turn themselves and others away from Christ and go back to the law.
This thead is closed.
Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.
I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain. Gal 4:9
There is no pulpit on Talk Jesus for sabbath keepers, nor any of those wishing to turn themselves and others away from Christ and go back to the law.
This thead is closed.
- Status
Trending content
-
-
-
-
-
Thread 'The Myth of saying that God Loved all men in the world without exception !'
- Brightfame52
Replies: 230
