Is our understanding of the Trinity/Godhead correct?

[Thorwald]

Taking into account the following scriptures, are there '3' or '4' figures, in the Trinity/Godhead? Has the Christian ministry, made a very large 'error' in interpreting the scriptures?

1) The 'FATHER' dwells in the light, which no man can enter. No man has seen the FATHER at any time (He is referred to in scripture, as the 'invisible' god).

2) The FATHER allowed the SON to create everything, and it 'pleased' Him to do so.

3) The SON must 'reconcile' HIS KINGDOM, before submitting HIMSELF and HIS KINGDOM, unto the FATHER.

4) Isaiah 44:6 refers to 'two' persons being God (The Godhead?)

5) Genesis 1:26 is 'plural' (Let 'us' make man in our image, after our likeness.)

6) Man SEES 'two' figures in Acts 7:55-56.

7) Man SEES The Lord God Almighty and Christ - Revelation chapters 4 & 5.

8) Revelation 1:6 can be interpreted as God having a FATHER.

9) The Lord's Prayer states '...THY kingdom come'.

10) My Father and I are one....The Godhead??????

11) Jesus is in the 'express image' of His Father (Was Jesus 'begotten' from His Father's *****? The listing of 'generations' of the Israelites, uses some form of this same verb, to explain the impregnation of woman by man. The word 'created is only used with Adam and Eve. We could also say, that Eve was begotten of Adam (Adams rib), as well as being created by God. (This is not part of the thread, but I thought that I would add it anyway.)

Taking into account the above scriptures, have we 'thrown out' THE SON and replaced Him with HIS 'invisible' FATHER? It appears, that THE FATHER, THE SON and THE HOLY GHOST, were together in the beginning. When THE SON was allowed to create everything, He first begot a 'redeemer' because He knew, that a redeemer for His creations, was going to be needed in order to redeem and reconcile, His creations, in the end.

It appears, that THE SON made His only begotten Son part of The Godhead in the beginning, and allowed Him to help create everything else.

Is our 'creator' not also 'our Father' in heaven? Are we not to become (if found worthy) sons/daughters of His and His only begotten Son? Is the book of Revelation not the SON reconciling His Kingdom?

 

[ForumAddict]

Too much human reasoning greatly distorts what the Word tells us.

[h=3]Revelation 22:18-20[/h]King James Version (KJV)

18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

 

[Thorwald]

Too much human reasoning greatly distorts what the Word tells us.

Revelation 22:18-20

King James Version (KJV)

18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

What 'prophecy' is being 'added' or even 'distorted'?

I challenge ANYONE to show me that the current understanding of the Trinity/Godhead, does NOT CONTRADICT the scriptures that I posted above. If The Father is 'invisible', then who do we see in Acts 7:55-56, and Revelation chapters 4 and 5? It can ONLY be, THE SON, and HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON.

 

[Trisha]

I believe there is a trinity. The Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost. They are three distinct entities but of the same spirit. In Corinthians it says that Jesus will hand over the kingdom to the Father once He has put everything under His feet. It could not be any plainer than that. The Holy Spirit resides in us. The Son sits at the right hand of the Father. Some people only believe in two, the Son and the Holy Ghost it seems. They say it is Jesus only, but they do believe in two.
The trinity is real, read 1 Corinthians, ch. 15, v. 20-28. Any time I asked a Jesus only believer to explain how they think about that passage, they got angry and would end the study.
That spoke volumes to me about their beliefs.

 

[stephen]

I was interested to read of your vision that you share in your profile.

That is wonderful...........I have seen things which have been quite clear....only later did I become aware what it all meant.

 

[amadeus2]

What 'prophecy' is being 'added' or even 'distorted'?

I challenge ANYONE to show me that the current understanding of the Trinity/Godhead, does NOT CONTRADICT the scriptures that I posted above. If The Father is 'invisible', then who do we see in Acts 7:55-56, and Revelation chapters 4 and 5? It can ONLY be, THE SON, and HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON.

Why the need to challenge people to prove what God is, or what He isn't? In the end for each believer, is it not God who gives any increase in his understanding that is given?

Apparently you believe strongly in what you believe. Before you received this as your belief, did you not believe something else? You have been changed. Do not presume that no one else has been changed by God. God, Himself, has never changed (Mal 3:6), but undoubtedly man's perception of Him does from person to person and from time to time.

Who or what is it that leads us into Truth? Is it not God? He may well work through a person such as yourself or me or someone else on this forum, but be careful about deciding that you have arrived at where Jesus is. We all should be heading that way, but we are really on different places along the road.

Share what you have, what you believe and if and when people are willing, discuss it further, but again... only God gives the increase (I Cor 3:6-7)! God never force feeds anyone.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

Hi Thorwald,I like your collection of verses

Since Stephen was in the spirit he was not a man.
1) The 'FATHER' dwells in the light, which no man can enter. No man has seen the FATHER at any time (He is referred to in scripture, as the 'invisible' god).


Jesus was not talking to men when he said this to his disciples:
John 14:9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, 'Show us the Father '?

John 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

The sons of God are not men or man,they are neither male or female,they are the new creatures formed in Christ who are born from heaven and are still there.

Ephesians 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

 

[will]

So when we are commanded by our Lord Jesus in the Great Commission (Matthew 28:19):
"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit."

Three or four or one?

 

[Thorwald]

Too much human reasoning greatly distorts what the Word tells us.

Revelation 22:18-20

King James Version (KJV)

18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

No one is 'adding' anything. It is the 'interpretation' that I am questioning.

 

[Thorwald]

I believe there is a trinity. The Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost. They are three distinct entities but of the same spirit. In Corinthians it says that Jesus will hand over the kingdom to the Father once He has put everything under His feet. It could not be any plainer than that. The Holy Spirit resides in us. The Son sits at the right hand of the Father. Some people only believe in two, the Son and the Holy Ghost it seems. They say it is Jesus only, but they do believe in two.
The trinity is real, read 1 Corinthians, ch. 15, v. 20-28. Any time I asked a Jesus only believer to explain how they think about that passage, they got angry and would end the study.
That spoke volumes to me about their beliefs.

When different people end up with different interpretations of the same scriptures, then you know, that 'something is wrong'.

 

[Thorwald]

I was interested to read of your vision that you share in your profile.

That is wonderful...........I have seen things which have been quite clear....only later did I become aware what it all meant.

Thank you for your input.

 

[Thorwald]

Why the need to challenge people to prove what God is, or what He isn't? In the end for each believer, is it not God who gives any increase in his understanding that is given?

Apparently you believe strongly in what you believe. Before you received this as your belief, did you not believe something else? You have been changed. Do not presume that no one else has been changed by God. God, Himself, has never changed (Mal 3:6), but undoubtedly man's perception of Him does from person to person and from time to time.

Who or what is it that leads us into Truth? Is it not God? He may well work through a person such as yourself or me or someone else on this forum, but be careful about deciding that you have arrived at where Jesus is. We all should be heading that way, but we are really on different places along the road.

Share what you have, what you believe and if and when people are willing, discuss it further, but again... only God gives the increase (I Cor 3:6-7)! God never force feeds anyone.

It appears to me, that if I look at 1 Timothy 1:14-16, I have to come to the conclusion, that PAUL is the 'culprit', in regards to my thread. PAUL has made JESUS CHRIST the first creation of the INVISIBLE FATHER, when in fact, JESUS CHRIST is the first creation of THE INVISIBLE FATHER'S SON (THE LORD GOD ALMIGHTY). PAUL, through his misunderstanding, has thrown out OUR FATHER IN HEAVEN (THE LORD GOD ALMIGHTY).

 

[tghslh]

what are you trying to say?

 

[amadeus2]

It appears to me, that if I look at 1 Timothy 1:14-16, I have to come to the conclusion, that PAUL is the 'culprit', in regards to my thread. PAUL has made JESUS CHRIST the first creation of the INVISIBLE FATHER, when in fact, JESUS CHRIST is the first creation of THE INVISIBLE FATHER'S SON (THE LORD GOD ALMIGHTY). PAUL, through his misunderstanding, has thrown out OUR FATHER IN HEAVEN (THE LORD GOD ALMIGHTY).

So then are you rejecting the writings of Paul? Or only some of them? Or am I misunderstanding what you are saying?

 

[Thorwald]

So then are you rejecting the writings of Paul? Or only some of them? Or am I misunderstanding what you are saying?

I will respond to your posting and that of tghslh at the same time;

This thread was started in the 'Apologetics' section, and was moved here after numerous postings. Please read the prior postings, also, so I do not have to type them in again.

It is written, that THE 'invisible [to man] FATHER, let HIS SON create everything, and HIS SON must reconcile HIS KINGDOM, before submitting HIMSELF AND HIS KINGDOM, unto THE invisible FATHER. The Father, Son and Holy Ghost, DOES NOT include JESUS CHRIST. JESUS CHRIST, is the FIRST CREATION of THE SON (The Lord God Almighty). It is as simple as that!!!!!!!

Paul's 'misunderstanding', has been spread throughout the NT. He is the author of a great deal of the 'books' in the NT. Even in Colossians 2:2-3, Paul admits to the 'mystery' of this topic. The secret behind the true understanding of how these 'four figures' fit properly in the NT, is using Isaiah 44:6, Acts 7:55-56, and Revelation chapters 4 & 5. These 'correct' scriptures, have not been touched by Paul.

 

[David777]

Greetings thorwald.

You stated;

"JESUS CHRIST, is the FIRST CREATION of THE SON (The Lord God Almighty).
It is as simple as that!!!!!!!"

Too many exclamation marks me thinks.


Isaiah 9

6 For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us;
And the government will rest on His shoulders;
And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

This is a messianic prophecy that identifies Jesus as "Eternal Father".

John 5:7

"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word,
and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."

The Word is Jesus Christ of course.

All doctrine must be supportable from the scripture.

 

[amadeus2]

The Father, Son and Holy Ghost, DOES NOT include JESUS CHRIST. JESUS CHRIST, is the FIRST CREATION of THE SON

I understand what you are saying, but I do not understand where you got the idea from scripture. You are saying that four (4) entities, or parts exist, or something like that (rather than 3 as in a trinity):

1) Father
2) Son
3) Holy Ghost
4) Jesus

The verses to which you have referred do not show me that. I would like to be reasonable and give serious consideration to your belief, but you have explained yourself not at all.

 

[Thorwald]

I understand what you are saying, but I do not understand where you got the idea from scripture. You are saying that four (4) entities, or parts exist, or something like that (rather than 3 as in a trinity):

1) Father
2) Son
3) Holy Ghost
4) Jesus

The verses to which you have referred do not show me that. I would like to be reasonable and give serious consideration to your belief, but you have explained yourself not at all.

Hi. (LOL)

Here we go again.

Isaiah 44:6 states that 'two figures' make up the GODHEAD. The first figure is The Lord God Almighty who finally sits on His throne in Revelation chapter 4. Chapter 5 is related to Jesus Christ (The only begotten Son of The Lord God Almighty).

Acts 7:55-56, tells us, that mankind has 'visually' seen The Lord God Almighty and Jesus Christ.

I have seen The Lord God Almighty and Jesus Christ standing side by side in my own 'vision'.

1 Timothy 1:14-16 states that The Father cannot be seen by man. Therefore, The Father IS NOT the one sitting on the throne in Revelation chapter 4.

In my vision, there were 'four' figures, NOT THREE. I was not allowed to see The Father or The Holy Ghost.

OUR FATHER IN HEAVEN, IS THE INVISIBLE FATHER'S SON. THE LORD GOD ALMIGHTY (OUR CREATOR), IS OUR FATHER IN HEAVEN. The Lord's Prayer refers to HIM. HE is THE FATHER of man, angels and Jesus Christ.

The scriptures tell us that it 'pleased' The Father to allow His Son to create everything, and His Son is to reconcile His KINGDOM before submitting Himself and His Kingdom unto the invisible FATHER. This is what The Son (The Lord God Almighty) is doing in Revelation, AND BOTH FIGURES ARE SEEN BY JOHN.

We have to remember, that Isaiah 44:6, refers to 'the first and the last'. It also refers to the SON'S KINGDOM. The first figure is THE KING of the KINGDOM. WHOSE KINGDOM IS IT? THE INVISIBLE FATHER'S SON'S KINGDOM.

 

[Thorwald]

Greetings thorwald.

You stated;

"JESUS CHRIST, is the FIRST CREATION of THE SON (The Lord God Almighty).
It is as simple as that!!!!!!!"

Too many exclamation marks me thinks.


Isaiah 9

6 For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us;
And the government will rest on His shoulders;
And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

This is a messianic prophecy that identifies Jesus as "Eternal Father".

John 5:7

"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word,
and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."

The Word is Jesus Christ of course.

All doctrine must be supportable from the scripture.

THIS IS A 'PROPHECY'. It doesn't state whether or not Isaiah 'agrees' with the prophecy. Man has fulfilled the prophecy, because they believe that Isaiah agrees with the prophecy. DOES THIS MAKE SENSE?

Also 1 John 5:7 has been debated by many. Some say that it is not in the original 'manuscripts'. I would be careful using this scripture as 'reference'. The NIV study bible has 'deleted' this verse.

 

[Thorwald]

I will respond to your posting and that of tghslh at the same time;

This thread was started in the 'Apologetics' section, and was moved here after numerous postings. Please read the prior postings, also, so I do not have to type them in again.

It is written, that THE 'invisible [to man] FATHER, let HIS SON create everything, and HIS SON must reconcile HIS KINGDOM, before submitting HIMSELF AND HIS KINGDOM, unto THE invisible FATHER. The Father, Son and Holy Ghost, DOES NOT include JESUS CHRIST. JESUS CHRIST, is the FIRST CREATION of THE SON (The Lord God Almighty). It is as simple as that!!!!!!!

Paul's 'misunderstanding', has been spread throughout the NT. He is the author of a great deal of the 'books' in the NT. Even in Colossians 2:2-3, Paul admits to the 'mystery' of this topic. The secret behind the true understanding of how these 'four figures' fit properly in the NT, is using Isaiah 44:6, Acts 7:55-56, and Revelation chapters 4 & 5. These 'correct' scriptures, have not been touched by Paul.

I just realized something. I posted this thread on three different forums at the same time. This forum doesn't have an 'Apologetics' sub-forum. I apologize. I was thinking of my postings on a different forum. :embarasse