It Is All Spiritual

[RJ]

The ability to keep the law is not God's gift, it is a result of the cross, the death to self and rising to new life (which you cannot experience unless you have been water baptized), and the indwelling power of the Spirit which all result from God's grace which is a gift.
What is obsolete is the written law of Moses, not God's moral law.
You are saying that despite Christ dying for our sins, despite the problem of our flesh being dealt with, and despite us having received the Spirit and being under His grace, we cannot keep His commands, which 1 John 5:3 says are not burdensome for us.
If you say you cannot keep God's law, you are saying you are still in your sins, because a person in their sins is powerless to keep the law. But a Christian is able to keep God's law and with a righteousness that exceeds the Pharisees.
As Scripture plainly shows there are many Old Testament saints, Noah, Job, even the parents of John the Baptist, who kept God's commands perfectly and were blameless. And they did it without the cross and without the indwelling power of the Spirit. As Paul writes, previously we were sinners by nature, but now we are keepers of God's commands by nature.

• The ability to keep the law is not God's gift, it is a result of the cross..Oh my goodness James!!! The cross is God's grace...I am really sorry that you do not see that.
• (which you cannot experience unless you have been water baptized) You are talking about works, I have been saved by God's grace with out water!
• As Scripture plainly shows there are many Old Testament saints, Noah, Job, even the parents of John the Baptist, who kept God's commands perfectly and were blameless..No James. No man was perfect but Jesus Christ, including you! The Old Testament Saints sins were covered over by the law and the "Day of Atonement", not taken away as Jesus Christ did. God's grace has been active from the begining of man! God's grace was the reason that God favored these men, not there perfection. Genesis 15:16 ....it was there belief James and nothing more and God credited them with righteousness.
• I pray that you see the true light!

 

[Jehonadab]

• The ability to keep the law is not God's gift, it is a result of the cross..Oh my goodness James!!! The cross is God's grace...I am really sorry that you do not see that.
• (which you cannot experience unless you have been water baptized) You are talking about works, I have been saved by God's grace with out water!
• As Scripture plainly shows there are many Old Testament saints, Noah, Job, even the parents of John the Baptist, who kept God's commands perfectly and were blameless..No James. No man was perfect but Jesus Christ, including you! The Old Testament Saints sins were covered over by the law and the "Day of Atonement", not taken away as Jesus Christ did. God's grace has been active from the begining of man! God's grace was the reason that God favored these men, not there perfection. Genesis 15:16 ....it was there belief James and nothing more and God credited them with righteousness.
• I pray that you see the true light!

James 2:20 "But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?"

And it was for that reason that: James 2:23 ".. the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God."

Hebrews 11:8 "By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God."

Hebrews 11:17 "By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:
19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure."

James 2:24 "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."

Revelation 3:1 "And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.
2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
6 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches."

 

[RJ]

James 2:20 "But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?"

And it was for that reason that: James 2:23 ".. the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God."

Hebrews 11:8 "By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God."

Hebrews 11:17 "By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:
19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure."

James 2:24 "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."

Revelation 3:1 "And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.
2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
6 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches."

God's grace and man's belief and faith have been in play from the begining of man!

 

[B-A-C]

God's grace and man's belief and faith have been in play from the begining of man!

True, but keep in mind only believers get grace. Grace doesn't end when you become a Christian, it begins.
Romans 5:20; and Romans 6:1; say where sin increases, grace must also increase. Even Christians sin sometimes, this is where the grace comes in.
It isn't just for past sins.

In John 13:5-11; Jesus tells Peter, if you are already clean you don't need to take a bath again (get saved again) however you do need to wash your feet
every now and then. Grace is an on-going thing for believers.

1 John 1:9; says "IF" we "CONFESS" our sins, then He will (forgive us and) cleanse us (from unrighteousness). However it doesn't say He will do this if we don't confess.

If non-believers received this grace, then why bother to get saved? Why does it matter if I believe in Jesus?

In the Lord's prayer we are told to pray. Forgive us our sins as we forgive others, who sin against us (some Bible says debts, but
really that's the point, sin is a debt that has to be paid). Luke 11:4; Matt 6:12;

 

[RJ]

True, but keep in mind only believers get grace. Grace doesn't end when you become a Christian, it begins.
Romans 5:20; and Romans 6:1; say where sin increases, grace must also increase. Even Christians sin sometimes, this is where the grace comes in.
It isn't just for past sins.

In John 13:5-11; Jesus tells Peter, if you are already clean you don't need to take a bath again (get saved again) however you do need to wash your feet
every now and then. Grace is an on-going thing for believers.

1 John 1:9; says "IF" we "CONFESS" our sins, then He will (forgive us and) cleanse us (from unrighteousness). However it doesn't say He will do this if we don't confess.

If non-believers received this grace, then why bother to get saved? Why does it matter if I believe in Jesus?

In the Lord's prayer we are told to pray. Forgive us our sins as we forgive others, who sin against us (some Bible says debts, but
really that's the point, sin is a debt that has to be paid). Luke 11:4; Matt 6:12;

True, but keep in mind only believers get grace.

Never thought anything any different B-A-C.

 

[Barny]

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."

Revelation 3:1 "And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.
2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
6 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches."

Hi Jehonadab,

I already explained what works Christians do in Post #31 of Topic Is Repentance Necessary For Salvation. I suggest you read that post again to see that our works are to believe on Jesus.

Regarding the church of Sardis that you referred to, that quote does not support your claim as you suppose.

Revelation 3:1-6
"And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.
Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches."

Here we see a church where there are a few members who have not defiled themselves.
But the others in that church do not have perfect works and hence the reputation of that church is that it is dead.

I suspect you see this verse as speaking about the church at Sardis not having perfect works of the law. If so then that would be error.

Instead it refers to the works of believing on Jesus, as described in John 6:29.
Remember its the sin of unbelief in Jesus that the world is convicted of John 16:9.
In fact the call to the church at Sardis that if they "overcome", confirms this.
How does one "overcome"?
1John 5:5
Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

Now a few members of the church at Sarids had not defiled themselves. But the others clearly had.
How does one defile themselves?
Consider Heb 12:15.
looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up cause trouble, and by this many become defiled;

What is falling short of God's grace?
Gal 5:4
You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace

So we see that many within the church at Sardis (which had a reputation for being spiritually dead) did not have perfect works of believing on Jesus. These people had defiled themselves by mixing works of the law with grace, thus falling short of God's grace. And we cannot mix works of the law with grace.

Rom 11:6.
And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

Hence the call to the Church at Sardis that they repent of their dead works of righteousness by works of the law

 

[Barny]

True, but keep in mind only believers get grace. Grace doesn't end when you become a Christian, it begins.
Romans 5:20; and Romans 6:1; say where sin increases, grace must also increase. Even Christians sin sometimes, this is where the grace comes in.
It isn't just for past sins.;

ONLY PAST sins were remitted at the cross, Rom 3:25.
Once we receive Christ there is no more sin that can be charged against us.
Christians have "ceased from sin", 1Pet 4:1
Christians "cannot sin" 1John 3:9.
And this is all confirmed in the next verse following what you quoted above.
Rom 6:1,2.
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?

Christians are dead to sin, hence we cannot be charged with sin, Rom 8:33
Rom 6:7
For he who has died has been freed from sin..

Rom 7:4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ,

Gal 2:19
For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God.

Rom 10:4
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

In John 13:5-11; Jesus tells Peter, if you are already clean you don't need to take a bath again (get saved again) however you do need to wash your feet
every now and then;

.

The feet washing doctrine you offer above is Adventist error doctrine.
BTW, have you been washing the feet of others?
And how often do you get your feet washed to cleanse yourself?
Do you get your feet washed immediately after you "sin" in case you should pass away unexpectedly with that sin/unrighteousness remaining?
I ask these questions as every time this feet washing doctrine is offered, those pushing it back away and avoid giving more detail about it.

So what is Jesus actually referring to about the symbolism of feet washing?
Note John 15:3
You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.

Eph 5:26
that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word,

What word is that?
It's the gospel. Believe on Jesus.

And note how feet is symbolized with the preaching of the word (gospel).
Eph 6:15
and having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace;

Isa 52:7
How beautiful upon the mountains
Are the feet of him who brings good news,
Who proclaims peace,
Who brings glad tidings of good things,
Who proclaims salvation,
Who says to Zion,
“Your God reigns!”

Rom 10:15
And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:
“How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,
Who bring glad tidings of good things!

I don't know how often you get your feet washed under that error Adventist doctrine telling you that your unclean and need to be cleansed again, and again, and again....BUT scripture gives us a very different account of washing and cleansing.

Jesus preached the gospel and we likewise should preach the gospel, letting our light shine.
The gospel is the washing of water by the word, Eph 5:26.
The sheep spoken of in Matt 25 who helped the spiritually hungry, thirsty, naked, sick, strangers, in prison, (that is the unsaved) helped them by washing their feet, that is preaching the gospel, so that they might be washed by the word. See the scriptures above as confirmation of this.

1 John 1:9; says "IF" we "CONFESS" our sins, then He will (forgive us and) cleanse us (from unrighteousness). However it doesn't say He will do this if we don't confess.
;

Here you are taking 1John 1:9 out of context .
You present a scenario where Christians are clean then dirty, then clean and then dirty, .....on and on, again and again.
Yet Rom 6:2. asks "How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?

And what if a Christian forgets to repent/confess a sin? Is he then lost should he die after having forgotten to repent of a sin?

And is this repenting/confessing that you speak of any different from that washing feet doctrine you spoke of?

 

[Jehonadab]

Barny, I delight in seeing how strong your faith in Christ is. You are a fine example of faith and the love which grows of faith, so please never take anything I say to be as trying to diminish that about you. Your exhibition of faith and love draws me to love you as a dear brother. And just as we see in all of the congregations in the different provinces where they were founded, there was always within them some variation of opinions by the flesh as it takes some work even for the most of us to get a firm grip on understanding. Therefore please forgive me where I disagree with you and especially when I am clumsy of words.

I will go and reveiw your post 31 of Topic Is Repentance Necessary For Salvation before I comment further.

 

[james1523]

The ability to keep the law is not God's gift, it is a result of the cross..Oh my goodness James!!! The cross is God's grace...I am really sorry that you do not see that.
(which you cannot experience unless you have been water baptized) You are talking about works, I have been saved by God's grace with out water!
As Scripture plainly shows there are many Old Testament saints, Noah, Job, even the parents of John the Baptist, who kept God's commands perfectly and were blameless..No James. No man was perfect but Jesus Christ, including you! The Old Testament Saints sins were covered over by the law and the "Day of Atonement", not taken away as Jesus Christ did. God's grace has been active from the begining of man! God's grace was the reason that God favored these men, not there perfection. Genesis 15:16 ....it was there belief James and nothing more and God credited them with righteousness.
I pray that you see the true light!

The cross is not God's grace, the cross is a way that the Romans used to crucify criminals. The purpose of the cross is not to give us God's grace but to kill. We receive God's grace when we turn to Him by faith.

You say you have been saved by God's grace without water, that is your claim, but God's Word says differently: 1 Peter 3:21 "The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us"
Mark 16:16 "Whoeverbelieves and is baptized will be saved"

 

[Barny]

Barny, I delight in seeing how strong your faith in Christ is. You are a fine example of faith and the love which grows of faith, so please never take anything I say to be as trying to diminish that about you. Your exhibition of faith and love draws me to love you as a dear brother. And just as we see in all of the congregations in the different provinces where they were founded, there was always within them some variation of opinions by the flesh as it takes some work even for the most of us to get a firm grip on understanding. Therefore please forgive me where I disagree with you and especially when I am clumsy of words.

I will go and reveiw your post 31 of Topic Is Repentance Necessary For Salvation before I comment further.

Forums are difficult venues to get our points across at the best of times. It's always going to be a challenge and takes a lot of patience.

For example B-A-C and I have debated often and have come to a better understanding of each other.
Also James1523 and I have debated often enough that we have gradually developed a better understanding of where each other is coming from.
It takes time, questioning and patience to gradually learn to understand each others point of view.

Whilst we all share a love for God's word, it's the truth in God's word that we want to share with each other. Sadly we all don't see this truth and disagreements occur.
My concern is for doctrines such as what is preached by James 1523. The doctrine he follows suggests that without perfect works of the law one is not saved. He even claims that there is no death bed salvation (such as experienced by the thief on the cross) as such persons would have no works of the law to show their faith.

BTW I don't take offense that easily.

 

[TC4JC]

If only our past sins were remitted at the cross, and Christ died on the cross for those past sins, then my obvious question would be which sins had I committed at the time He died? I wasn't even born then. All my sins were yet future at the time He hung on the cross.
And if only believers receive grace, then how can scripture say that God allows the rains to fall on the unjust too? In that economy, rain was needed for crop growing and the food it produced.

And the issue of keeping the Law I've seen within this thread confuses me also. Didn't Christ come to deliver us from the Law? Keeping something we are dead to doesn't make sense to me. The Law has no ability to save, but rather to condemn. It is the gauge God gave us to show us just how sinful we are/were.
Can clarification be made please?

 

[Barny]

If only our past sins were remitted at the cross, and Christ died on the cross for those past sins, then my obvious question would be which sins had I committed at the time He died? I wasn't even born then. All my sins were yet future at the time He hung on the cross.
And if only believers receive grace, then how can scripture say that God allows the rains to fall on the unjust too? In that economy, rain was needed for crop growing and the food it produced.

And the issue of keeping the Law I've seen within this thread confuses me also. Didn't Christ come to deliver us from the Law? Keeping something we are dead to doesn't make sense to me. The Law has no ability to save, but rather to condemn. It is the gauge God gave us to show us just how sinful we are/were.
Can clarification be made please?

Good questions TC4JC,

Christ's sacrifice for the remittance of PAST sins is referring to before we receive Christ. It is not dependent on when you were born.
Once we receive Christ there is no sin that Satan, the accuser, can charge us with.
Christians have "ceased from sin" 1Pet 4:1
We "cannot sin", 1John 3:9.

The confusion about "sin" is due to people not understanding the meaning of the term.
Sin is defined as:

1:Unbelief in Jesus, John 16:9. This is the sin the world is convicted of. Christians do not commit this sin.

2:Transgression of the law, 1John 3:4.
But take note that whatever the law says it says to those UNDER IT, Rom 3:19
Christians are NOT under the law for righteousness, Rom 8:2, Rom 10:4, Gal 3:24, Gal 5:18, 1Tim 1:9.
Hence we cannot be charged with this sin as we are not under this law.

3: Unrighteousness, 1John 5:17.
But a Christians faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5.
Hence we cannot be charged with the sin of unrighteousness.

So we see that once we receive Christ our PAST sins (when we were in unbelief) were remitted and from then on we cannot be charged with sin.
Rom 8:33
Who shall lay any thing (this includes sin) to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

BTW, this is not saying we are perfect in the physical. Instead it refers to our position in Christ.
Our life is hid with Christ in God, Col 3:3.
And in Christ there is no sin, 1John 3:5
It would be wrong to say that Christians who abide in Christ "sin" as in Christ there is no sin. It's his righteousness, holiness, perfection that God sees in us.

As for the flawed, imperfect physical part of us, it's already dead (by faith, Rom 6:6.) because of sin, Rom 8:10.
Hence we do not determine our righteousness by it's ability to keep the law.

TC4JC, you are correct that the law does not apply to us anymore, as the scriptures above confirm.

Instead we see that as Christians we love one another hence our behaviour towards one another improves. And should we fail then we all show the same love/grace that God showed towards each of us. We forgive 7x70.

 

[james1523]

And the issue of keeping the Law I've seen within this thread confuses me also. Didn't Christ come to deliver us from the Law? Keeping something we are dead to doesn't make sense to me. The Law has no ability to save, but rather to condemn. It is the gauge God gave us to show us just how sinful we are/were.
Can clarification be made please?

On one extreme is legalism, attempting to be right by God by keeping the law from our own self efforts and according to the written code. On the other extreme is rejection of the law completely, saying it has no relevance to us today, only our faith is considered by God.
The truth is somewhere in the middle as the Bible reveals. Our relationship to God is no longer regulated by a written law as it was for ancient Israel, but is now based on faith in Christ (Gal 3:22-25). What has changed from the Old Covenant to the New Covenant, is not that the law has been abolished or done away with, but that we now keep the law by the Spirit, not by the letter (2 Cor 3:6).
God now writes the law in our heart (Heb 10:16, Jer 31:33).
Keeping the law is now by faith in Christ, not by external observance to written laws.
The Old Testament is not irrelevant to Christians today, it is in our bible for a reason. The principles underlying the Law of Moses are valid for Christians today. We can call these the moral law of God - the things that God likes and doesn't like.

What the Bible teaches about the law:
God's law has not been abolished and will not pass away (Matt 5:18).
Keeping God's commandments is how we love Jesus (John 14:15)
We need to keep the commandments to enter life (Matt. 19:17).
Faith in Christ does not nullify the law, rather, it upholds the law (Rom 3:31).
The Holy Spirit causes us to delight in God's law (Rom 7:22).
Our position in heaven is determined by how much we respect God's law (Matt 5:19).
Keeping God's law is how we know Christ (1 John 2:3).
Even if we believe in Christ and call Jesus Lord, lawlessness will shut us out from Heaven (Matt 7:23).
A Christian is someone who loves God, loves Christ, and loves people, has faith in Christ, and keeps God's moral law.
Jesus said we need a righteousness exceeding the Jews to enter the kingdom (Matt 5:20). How do we get such a righteousness, by believing in Christ and then living however we want? No, by believing in Christ and keeping His commands which are not burdensome for us (1 John 5:3).
God's moral law applies to us as Christians and we must keep God's moral law by faith in Christ- what doesn't apply to us is the written Law of Moses.

Romans 6:14 says "For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace."
Romans 6:15 says "What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means!"

In verse 14 Paul says we are not under law, but under grace. For this reason, sin is no longer our master, we are no longer bound by the penalty of the law and the power of sin.
However in verse 15 Paul clarifies what he is saying in verse 14. He is not saying we are not under any laws, because he tells us not to sin. Sin is violation of God's moral law (1 John 3:4). In verse 15 Paul is saying we must not violate God's moral law just because we are under grace. Under grace does not mean we are not under any laws at all, it means we are not under the written law, and the power and penalty of it. To prove that Christians are under law, is given by 1 Cor 9:21 which says we are under the law of Christ. To prove that we are not without law, is given by the fact that our actions and our words will be judged ( 2 Cor 5:10, Matt 12:36).

In summary, the ancient Israelite's lived under God's written law, which was external to them, and this law could not save them because it could not impart life. Rather, it stirred up the sin in their members, and caused them to break the law and then bring themselves under condemnation (Romans 7-8). However Christians have God's law written on their hearts and keep it by the Spirit through faith in Christ. The problem of sin and death has been dealt with by Christ on the cross, and symbolized by our baptism (Romans 6). The law of the Spirit of life, regulates our living so we can have a high degree of morality and righteousness, and this brings us life (Romans 8:2), even Christ is now our righteousness (1 Cor 1:30).

 

[RJ]

The cross is not God's grace, the cross is a way that the Romans used to crucify criminals. The purpose of the cross is not to give us God's grace but to kill. We receive God's grace when we turn to Him by faith.

You say you have been saved by God's grace without water, that is your claim, but God's Word says differently: 1 Peter 3:21 "The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us"
Mark 16:16 "Whoeverbelieves and is baptized will be saved"

• Jeez James, you really don't know the word of God to make such claim that the cross was not God's grace! In fact, he planned it before the foundations of the world we live in. I bet you don't realize that your faith is not of your own doing, it is also a gift from God, also his grace.
• James, grace is not grace unless it is undeserved. Grace is a gift and if a gift it is free!
• If you are personally have to do anything to secure your salvation, this is not salvation by grace this is salvation by works.
• A person who thinks they are saved by good deeds and not by grace alone are still dead in their sins.

 

[Jehonadab]

james1523: I must say you really nailed it clearly in your post 33. Excellent job of explaining it.

There is but one thing in it that I would like you to ponder, as it is it relates to the concept of genetically inherited sin.

You said, "it stirred up the sin in their members". Of course, you no doubt have in mind what Paul said, Romans 7:5 "For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death."

Consider this if you would, please, that God was working with that nation of Israel as it were one body (representing the entire body of mankind).

Christ Jesus was foreshadowed by Jacob whose name God changed to Israel by blessing. This also then foreshadowed that the church, being one body in Christ but having many members. (Romans 12:4; 1 Corinthians 12:12; 1 Corinthians 12:20)

Now you know and have said that not all of those people in Israel allowed themselves to sin. And when Paul speaks there at Romans 7:5 what he has in mind is Israel as one body with many members, A huge number of those members did give way to sin and causing corruption by sin to the union of Israel. And the Law's commandment to put to death gross violators of God's Law pictured the obligation of the church to keep itself clean by excommunicating the really bad leaven out from the midst of the members of Christ's body.

These things must be appreciated before anyone can really understand what Paul speaks in Romans chapter 7.

I suspect this is probably coming as another surprise to you, so would you please ponder it and then let me know if you desire to discuss with me in further detail?

 

[Jehonadab]

I am going to take the liberty of adding just a bit more for you to consider.

The natural response to what i said in post 35 is, "OK, that does not negate that in Romans 7:23 "But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members."

Here is where we need to remember what Paul said earlier, Romans 6:19 "I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness."

Paul knew well how that sin took occasion by that Old law to deceive him. It did so by the environment produced of pursuing obedience to the Law by their own righteousness. He compared his time spent so zealously in Judaism to being in his mother Jerusalem's womb as pictured by Hagar. Let's first look at that: Galatians 1:15 "But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace.."

Now, many think that Paul there means his flesh and blood birth mother's womb but it is rather simple to learn that he is not; he is speaking of the anti-typical womb of the mother Hagar.

To see that notice a few verses before and after and then compare what he spoke there with 1 Corinthians 15:2-9 and of course Galatians 4:19-31. I will leave you on your own to do that as it is not difficult to see that in Galatians 1 Paul is speaking about being separated from Hagar's womb by the revelation of Christ while on the road to Damascus, even as he refers to that like one being born out of due time at 1 Corinthians 15:8.

OK, so Paul was in that womb with all of Hagar's children and sin was working heavily among his member siblings. Interpreting the Law by their own righteousness caused a spirit of zeal which ran contrary to the true spirit of God's righteousness in Christ. That spirit was that environment of sin taking occasion by the law to deceive not only him but many others sharing that same womb as members. Thus Paul died while right there in Hagar's womb even as did all in her womb.

What would free him from that mess? Being transfered by God's grace through and in Christ so as to become a child of the heavenly free woman pictured by Sarah, heavenly Jerusalem (aka, Jerusalem above) where all her children walk by the spirit that is in Christ which is one with the spirit of God.

Galatians 1:13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:
14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.
15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,

Galatians 1:15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,
16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:
17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.

1 Corinthians 15:7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.
9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

Galatians 4:19 ¶My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,
20 I desire to be present with you now, and to change my voice; for I stand in doubt of you.
21 ¶Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

 

[Jehonadab]

OK, remember that in post 35, I said, "There is but one thing in it that I would like you to ponder, as it is it relates to the concept of genetically inherited sin."

I am not saying that Paul is saying sin was not working in his own body of flesh but the question is how did it get there? Was he born that way or was it the corrupted environment which deprived him of the knowledge and wisdom of God's righteousness. If man was born that way then wouldn't God be unjust to destroy a man that was so devastated by it he could not find it in himself to repent it? But if this is a learned corruption then God would be just in furnishing the opportunity to learn and punishing for unwillingness to do so.

1 Corinthians 1:24 “But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.”

Where do we find God's righteousness? We find God's righteousness in the knowledge and wisdom of God. Jesus Christ is the word of God. Jesus told us, John 6:63 "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life." How so? Because they are the perfect knowledge and the perfect wisdom of God. They thus convey God's righteousness. James 3:17 “But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.”


Many would rather it be that we genetically inherit sin rather than inheriting it externally like a package of information we rely upon being passed down through our relatives to us. Because if it is genetically passed then they can make believe that none of it is their fault and they can even excuse themselves to hang onto and continue their pet sins. But when we realize it is a learned corruption, then we must take responsibility to abstain from sin and submit ourselves to God as Paul emphasizes we ought to do in Romans chapter six.

Even Jesus said, John 14:21 "He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him." and John 14:24 "He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me."

Thereby we see it is a matter of what we love most. And it is a matter of hating anything that causes separation between us and God.

We must be like Jesus, of whom the scriptures report, Hebrews 1:9 "Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. (Sidenote: "thy fellows" refers to the line of human kings which sat on the throne over Israel. Jesus is the king of kings.)

That corrupted learning environment is shown to have a cause in part due to the neglect of the religious leaders not teaching themselves so that could teach others.
Malachi 2:8 “But ye are departed out of the way; ye have caused many to stumble at the law; ye have corrupted the covenant of Levi, saith the LORD of hosts.”

The continuation of that corrupted environment can be seen in that the people by choices allowed through lack of love were responsible for their own corruption:
(Genesis 6:12; Deuteronomy 9:12; Deuteronomy 32:5; Judges 2:19; Hosea 9:9; Zephaniah 3:7)

That it is a matter of lack of wisdom is also seen here: 1 Corinthians 1:21 "For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe." The world functioned by what seemed good to themselves (that is what their own righteousness is).
Proverbs 14:12; Proverbs 16:25

I truly believe that any open-minded meek individual if they pursue researching this far enough in the scriptures will come away as I did wondering how I could have ever believed that we genetically inherit the tendency to sin. Modern science is yet struggling to show that certain extreme behaviors can be passed genetically but have not yet been successful at doing so. Genetic defect can affect behavior, yes, but normal genetics have minimal affect if any. Modern Psychologist have far more evidence to show it is principally learned behavior that is at the root of man's ways and that is what I see the Bible teaching unless we misinterpret scripture and poorly translate certain scripture.

 

[Barny]

He compared his time spent so zealously in Judaism to being in his mother Jerusalem's womb as pictured by Hagar. Let's first look at that: Galatians 1:15 "But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace.."

Now, many think that Paul there means his flesh and blood birth mother's womb but it is rather simple to learn that he is not; he is speaking of the anti-typical womb of the mother Hagar.

To see that notice a few verses before and after and then compare what he spoke there with 1 Corinthians 15:2-9 and of course Galatians 4:19-31. I will leave you on your own to do that as it is not difficult to see that in Galatians 1 Paul is speaking about being separated from Hagar's womb by the revelation of Christ while on the road to Damascus, even as he refers to that like one being born out of due time at 1 Corinthians 15:8.
.

Good point.
I had always skipped past that verse in Gal 1:15, without giving it much consideration. Thanks for highlighting it.

I had shared often here on TJ that Hagar is symbolic of righteousness by works of the law.
Gal 4:21-26
Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar— for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children— but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all

And this helps to understand other scriptures too.
Consider 1Cor 5:1
It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named among the Gentiles—that a man has his father’s wife!

Consider also 1Cor 5:6,7.
Your glorying is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump? Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us

How is it that sexual immorality and leaven are associated in the same context?
Firstly, what is leaven?
Matt 16:11,12
How is it you do not understand that I did not speak to you concerning bread?—but to beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees.” Then they understood that He did not tell them to beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and Sadducees.
Here we see that "leaven" is likewise symbolic for the doctrine of righteousness by works of the law which the Pharisees and Sadducees taught (just as Hagar is).

And how is "leaven" 1Cor 5:6,7. , (doctrine of righteousness by works of the law) linked with "sexual immorality" in 1Cor 5:1?

Remembering that Hagar is also symbolic for righteousness by works of the law, just as leaven is, then we see the link and can see that the wife referred to in 1Cor 5:1, is Hagar.

And who is the husband of Hagar in 1Cor 5:1.?
Jesus tells us in his rebuke of the Pharisees (whose leaven/doctrine is righteousness by works of the law) in John 8:44
You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do.
So we see 1Cor 5 referring to those who preach the doctrine/leaven of righteousness by works of the law as one having his father's (the devil) wife (Hagar).

Interestingly we see later in that 1Cor 5 that Christians are not to associate with anyone who claims to be a Christian who commits such spiritual sexual immorality, as a little leaven leavens the whole lump. Christians should not allow any doctrine of righteousness by works of the law to enter the church and potentially corrupt it's members.

 

[Jehonadab]

Even today we can see that in operation, but with our politically correct world it is very difficult for us to address head on.

Thank you Barny for the additional spiritual insight on Matt 16 and 1 Cor. 5. I have found that even in the O.T. this understanding interplays with much of what we read but had failed to notice the connection at Matt 16 and 1 Cor 5. Well, I guess I sort of did recognize that it relates to 1 Cor. 5 but merely did not make the conscious realization.

The scripture highlighted today (Proverbs 11:9) has to be on our hearts as we discuss the implications of this as it applies to Muslims and even modern Israel, over which there is much sensitivity. But for us, the most important thing to see is how it applies to us.

 

[james1523]

james1523: I must say you really nailed it clearly in your post 33. Excellent job of explaining it.

There is but one thing in it that I would like you to ponder, as it is it relates to the concept of genetically inherited sin.

You said, "it stirred up the sin in their members". Of course, you no doubt have in mind what Paul said, Romans 7:5 "For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death."

Consider this if you would, please, that God was working with that nation of Israel as it were one body (representing the entire body of mankind).

Christ Jesus was foreshadowed by Jacob whose name God changed to Israel by blessing. This also then foreshadowed that the church, being one body in Christ but having many members. (Romans 12:4; 1 Corinthians 12:12; 1 Corinthians 12:20)

Now you know and have said that not all of those people in Israel allowed themselves to sin. And when Paul speaks there at Romans 7:5 what he has in mind is Israel as one body with many members, A huge number of those members did give way to sin and causing corruption by sin to the union of Israel. And the Law's commandment to put to death gross violators of God's Law pictured the obligation of the church to keep itself clean by excommunicating the really bad leaven out from the midst of the members of Christ's body.

These things must be appreciated before anyone can really understand what Paul speaks in Romans chapter 7.

I suspect this is probably coming as another surprise to you, so would you please ponder it and then let me know if you desire to discuss with me in further detail?

I have never thought of it at the corporate body level before, only understanding that members refers to the members of our body.