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Jesus is greater than the Holy Spirit??

In accurate Bible translations there is no verse that directly says that God (Yahweh) is made up of three "persons." It is only implied by many scriptures, however when these scriptures are looked at objectively, they consistently teach about three "persons."
For either of our views to be correct we must take some passages figuratively. There is no direct statement that Yahweh is made up of three persons, but there is the direct statement that "Yahweh is one", and that Yahweh was alone when He created the universe, and that He knows of no other elochim. I think that this lends initial credibility to the idea that Yahweh is one person, i.e., I would give that idea the benefit of the doubt.

Perhaps the clearest illustration of the Godhead being made up three separate but unified "persons" is the Baptism of Jesus.
The best analogy that I can think of to describe my view is a person playing a computer game: they're sitting in the real world but controlling a character and interacting with other characters in the virtual world. This analogy fits with many events, including the Baptism of Jesus.

2 Corinthians 3:17-18 is not as helpful as I thought it was, as it referrs to the Holy Spirit (the Spirit of the Lord) and Jesus, but not the Father.
Yes, but don't you see that it says that the Lord is the Spirit, even though it is also called "the Spirit of the Lord"?

I think when John 14:15-21, John 15:26 and John 16:7-16 are read through it becomes very clear that the Holy Spirit is another "person" to Christ.
What do you think about John 14:18?

It is also clear that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are unified in such a way as we should be with them too!!!! John 14:20-21
But surely you would agree that the verse doesn't mean that we are going to be a part of the Godhead? If you agree, then how can the verse be saying that Jesus is a part of the Godhead? (I still believe that Jesus is Yahweh.)

The Godhead is somewhat of a mystery that our human minds cannot possibly fully comprehend,
I become wary when people start talking about "mystery"; the ***** of Babylon has "mystery" written on her forehead.

I don't know if this furthers my point, but as you know Jesus instructed his disciples to Baptize believers in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit - One God, Three "persons."
Yes, and if you'll notice it says "name", not "names". In Acts 2:38, the first time after the ressurrection that Peter tells someone to be baptized, he says to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. So is "Jesus Christ" only the name of the Son? If so, then Peter left out the names of the Father and the Holy Spirit. And if not, then the Father's name is Jesus, and the Holy Spirit's name is Jesus; and all three of them are named Jesus.

A very interesting topic this...one that has been studied and debated throughout church history by people much more knowledgable and qualified than me.
And an important one, too:

Jhn 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am [he], ye shall die in your sins. (The "he" isn't in the text).

Jhn 5:23 That all [men] should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

In Yahweh's Love,
Christ's Serf
 
The Trinity...

God, Jesus, and Holy Spirit are all one. If we look at John 14:16- Jesus said this," and I will pary the Father, and he shall give you ANOTHER COMFORTER, the HE may abide with you for ever." If we look carefully we see Jesus was the Comforter while he was on Earth in the Flesh. He the Holy Spirit in a word took the place of Jesus to give us devine strenght etc, amen.:star:
 
Dear Christserf,

As I read the New Testament I see three members of the Godhead mentioned continually. (Perhaps we are even saying the same thing but expressing it differently, although I couldn't follow your computer analogy - sorry.) My understanding is that God is one, with one Name, comprising of three "persons" - Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

I will try to address some of the things you raised in your last post.

Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me he will keep my word and My Father will love him and We will come to him and make Our abode with him." John 14:23 See also Ephesians 2:22
Jesus does live in our hearts by faith (Eph 3:17) as does the Father as we can see by the above verses. God is indeed Spirit, and it is the Holy Spirit that affects the connection! The fact that Christ lives in our hearts is evidence that we are truly children of God. (see 2 Corinthians 13:5!!!) The Bible also tells us that we are Temples of the Holy Spirit. I believe the triune God dwells in us by the Holy Spirit.
For through Him (Jesus) we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. Ephesians 2:18

I am certainly not saying that we are part of the Godhead, but God's ideal is that we become so much like Christ (the firstborn of many brothers) through Christ's saving work and the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit that we become united with God spiritually, but most definitely NOT in equality. See Romans 8:29-30

The words mystery and mysteries are used over 27 times in the New Testament and the vast majority of these referrances are about wonderfully great Kingdom Truths. Paul uses the word mystery to describe Christ's incarnation in 1 Timothy 3:16. He calls it the mystery of godliness. Certainly to our puny minds, in many ways God is a mystery, but it our joy to discover as much as we can through his Word with the guidance of the Holy Spirit - the Spirit of Truth. (Proverbs 25:2)

Let a person regard us in this manner, as servants of Christ and as stewards of the mysteries of God. 1 Corinthians 4:1

:love:
evangeline
 
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Acts 5:30-32

30The God of our fathers raised Jesus from the dead—whom you had killed by hanging him on a tree. 31God exalted him to his own right hand as Prince and Savior that he might give repentance and forgiveness of sins to Israel. 32We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him."

Acts 7:55-57
55But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. 56"Look," he said, "I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God."

Luke 22:69
But from now on, the Son of Man will be seated at the right hand of the mighty God."

Mark 16:19
After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven and he sat at the right hand of God.

Luke 22:69
But from now on, the Son of Man will be seated at the right hand of the mighty God."

Hebrews 12:2
Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Genesis 1:26
Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, [ Hebrew; Syriac all the wild animals ] and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

Trinity: Webster’s dictionary gives the following definition of trinity: “The union of three divine persons (or hypostases), the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, in one divinity, so that all the three are one God as to substance, but three Persons (or hypostases as to individuality).” Synonyms sometimes used are triunity, trine, triality. The term “trinity” is formed from “tri,” three, and “nity,” unity. Triunity is a better term than “trinity” because it better expresses the idea of three in one. God is three in one. Hypostases is the plural of hypostasis which means “the substance, the underlying reality, or essence.”

Tri-theism. This is the teaching that there are three Gods who are sometimes related, but only in a loose association. Such an approach, abandons the biblical oneness of God and the unity within the Trinity

1 Corinthians 8:4-6 “Therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that there is no such thing as an idol in the world, and that there is no God but one. For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.”

Ephesians 4:4-6There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.”

James 2:19 “You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.”

There are many instances where God uses the plural pronoun to describe Himself (see Gen. 1:26; 3:22; 11:7; Isa. 6:8).

Several passages reveal a distinction of Persons within the Godhead.
  • In Psalm 110:1, David demonstrates there is a distinction of Persons between “LORD,” the one speaking, and the one addressed called by David, “my Lord.” David was indicating the Messiah was no ordinary king, but his own Lord, Adoni (my Lord), one who was God Himself. So God the first Person addresses God the second Person. This is precisely Peter’s point when He quotes this Psalm to show the resurrection of the Messiah was anticipated in the Old Testament.
  • The Redeemer (who must be divine, Isa. 7:14; 9:6) is distinguished from the Lord (Isa. 59:20).
  • The Lord is distinguished from the Lord in Hosea 1:6-7. The one speaking here is Yahweh, the Lord, yet, note the statement in verse 7, “I will have compassion … and deliver them by the Lord their God.”
  • The Spirit is distinguished from the Lord in a number of passages (Isa. 48:16; 59:21; 63:9-10).
(1) The Father is called God (John 6:27; 20:17; 1 Cor. 8:6; Gal. 1:1; Eph. 4:6; Phil. 2:11; 1 Pet. 1:2).

(2) Jesus Christ, the Son is declared to be God. His deity is proven by the divine names given to Him, by His works that only God could do (upholding all things, Col. 1:17; creation, Col. 1:16, John 1:3; and future judgment, John 5:27), by His divine attributes (eternality, John 17:5; omnipresence, Matt. 28:20; omnipotence, Heb. 1:3; omniscience, Matt. 9:4), and by explicit statements declaring His deity (John 1:1; 20:28; Titus 2:13; Heb. 1:8).

(3) The Holy Spirit is recognized as God. By comparing Peter’s comments in Acts 5:3 and 4, we see that in lying to the Holy Spirit (vs. 3), Ananias was lying to God (vs. 4). He has the attributes which only God can possess like omniscience (1 Cor. 2:10) and omnipresence (1 Cor. 6:19), and He regenerates people to new life (John 3:5-6, 8; Tit. 3:5), which must of necessity be a work of God for only God has the power of life. Finally, His deity is evident by the divine names used for the Spirit as “the Spirit of our God,” (1 Cor. 6:11), which should be understood as “the Spirit, who is our God.”

Ryrie writes: “Matthew 28:19 best states both the oneness and threeness by associating equally the three Persons and uniting them in one singular name. Other passages like Matthew 3:16-17 and 2 Corinthians 13:14 associate equally the three Persons but do not contain the strong emphasis on unity as does Matthew 28:19.”18

2 Cor. 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all.

1 Peter 1:1-5 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen 2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, tat you may obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in fullest measure. 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

John 20:17
Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.' "

John 13:3
Jesus knew that the Father had put all things under his power, and that he had come from God and was returning to God.

Dictionary:

Gentiles
(Heb., usually in plural, goyim), meaning in general all nations except the Jews. In course of time, as the Jews began more and more to pride themselves on their peculiar privileges, it acquired unpleasant associations, and was used as a term of contempt.


In the New Testament the Greek word Hellenes, meaning literally Greek (as in Acts 16:1, 3; 18:17; Rom. 1:14), generally denotes any non-Jewish nation.
 
Hi brothers and sisters,
Please refer the following verse and meditate God's word. It will help you understand Trinity more and don't get confuse like me when I was unprepare and reading an article that's completely false.

New Testament
Mathew 3:16-17, 28:18-20; John 3:34-35; Acts 2:32-33, 38-39; ICor. 12:1-6; II Cor. 13:13; Eph. 1:13-14, 4:1-6: Peter 1:1-2 sum it up really well.

Old Testament
Isaiah 6:8, 61:1-3, 48:16-17; Psalms 2:7; Exodus 3:1-4; Joshua 5:13; Genesis 16:7-11, 21:17, 22:11, 22:15, 24:7, 24:40, 31:11, 32:24-30

May God's word explain the truth to us all. God Blesses You all.
 
Hello all:

I could give you a list of verses as long as your arm showing examples of how the Father and the Son are the same person. None of it is going to matter unless we can agree on how to determine whether a verse should be interpreted literally or figuratively. I think that:
1) the main subject of a passage is more likely to be literal, and something which is not the main subject of a passage is more likely to be figurative
2) a heavenly vision is more likely to be figurative than other passages
3) a command is more likely to be literal than other passages
Are we agreed on these? Do you have any other suggestions?

Ideally, we should prefer the doctrine which takes the least number of verses figuratively. Are we agreed on that?

As for how I define the Godhead, I think that Yahweh is one, (Deut. 6:4) and that He appears in many ways (Heb. 1:1).

As for my analogy, the player is analogous to Yahweh, and the video game character is analogous to Jesus. If I was playing Pac-Man I could say to someone standing next to me "Look at me eating those ghosts, now I'm going to get that piece of fruit". I would be reffering to that character as being myself. The person standing next to me could say "turn right, there's a ghost coming". He would be reffering to my character as acting, even though it's really me pushing the buttons.

Here's another issue. In the ancient world there are many pagan religions who have a Trinitarian god among their other ones. Couldn't this be the origin of the doctrine? And if this was a truth which was explicitly revealed to them, why wasn't it explicitly revealed to the pre-Christian prophets?

Christ's Serf
 
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Luk 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?


1Jo 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Zec 4:6 Then he answered and spoke unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.


1Co 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.


2Co 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.
 
spirit1st:

In only one of these passages is the nature of the Godhead being discussed.

1Jo 5:7-8 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

Now if he had said that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit agree in one that might make me wonder. But he specifically said that those three in heaven are one, and that those three in earth agree in one. I think that this supports my Oneness view.

Christ's Serf
 
Chad:

In most of the verses you mentioned the nature of the Godhead is not the main subject being addressed. I think that we should first consider the passages in which it is being addressed.

If you take Genesis 1:26 literally then you have to take every other passage where He refers to Himself in the singular figuratively. That's way more passages than if you did it the other way around.

Isa 59:20 And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD(Yahweh).

First, the nature of the Godhead isn't being discussed. Second, look at this:

Jer 23:5-6 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD(Yahweh), that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this [is] his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD(Yahweh) OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

I do not deny the divinity of Christ. I've heard some call me a modalist. I think that Yahweh takes on different manifestations, and that Jesus is one of those manifestations.

Christ's Serf
 
Christserf, How can you read Chad's post above and still believe Oneness doctrine?

Take John 14:23 "Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him."

John 14:25 “These things I have spoken to you while being present with you. 26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name..." I know this verse has already been mentioned but Jesus says that the Father will send the Holy Spirit. That is clearly three persons.
 
sunshine:

How can you read Chad's post above and still believe Oneness doctrine?

Because most of the verses that he mentioned are not addressing the issue of the nature of the Godhead. For instance:

Acts 5:30The God of our fathers raised Jesus from the dead—whom you had killed by hanging him on a tree.

The issue being discussed in this verse isn't whether or not the Father and the Son are the same person, it's discussing an event, Jesus' death and ressurrection. If we're going to discuss a doctrine, we first have to look at the passages which are speaking specifically about that doctrine. If we were to discuss whether or not adultery is a sin we would start by looking at the passages which say "Thou shalt not commit adultery". We wouldn't start with the passage of the woman who was caught in adultery and brought before Jesus.

John 14:25 “These things I have spoken to you while being present with you. 26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name..." I know this verse has already been mentioned but Jesus says that the Father will send the Holy Spirit. That is clearly three persons.
1) The nature of the Godhead isn't being discussed here.

2) Using the same reasoning we could conclude that when Yahweh said "Let there be light" that that means that Yahweh actually had vocal cords which created sound waves to form the words "Let there be light". There are numerous examples of Yahweh taking on human characteristics, that doesn't mean that He actually has those characteristics in the same way that we do.

3) Look at vs. 16-18:

And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

Here is a passage which is directly addressing the nature of the Godhead:

Hbr 1:1-3 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Do you notice that when he talks about who the Son is he says that the Son is the brightness of his glory, the express image of his person. He doesn't say that the Son is someone else.

What verses would you like to bring forth which are directly addressing the nature of the Godhead?

Christ's Serf
 
christserf said:
sunshine:
Because most of the verses that he mentioned are not addressing the issue of the nature of the Godhead. For instance:
Acts 5:30The God of our fathers raised Jesus from the dead—whom you had killed by hanging him on a tree.
The issue being discussed in this verse isn't whether or not the Father and the Son are the same person, it's discussing an event, Jesus' death and ressurrection. If we're going to discuss a doctrine, we first have to look at the passages which are speaking specifically about that doctrine. If we were to discuss whether or not adultery is a sin we would start by looking at the passages which say "Thou shalt not commit adultery". We wouldn't start with the passage of the woman who was caught in adultery and brought before Jesus.
1) The nature of the Godhead isn't being discussed here.
2) Using the same reasoning we could conclude that when Yahweh said "Let there be light" that that means that Yahweh actually had vocal cords which created sound waves to form the words "Let there be light". There are numerous examples of Yahweh taking on human characteristics, that doesn't mean that He actually has those characteristics in the same way that we do.
3) Look at vs. 16-18:
And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
Here is a passage which is directly addressing the nature of the Godhead:
Hbr 1:1-3 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
Do you notice that when he talks about who the Son is he says that the Son is the brightness of his glory, the express image of his person. He doesn't say that the Son is someone else.
What verses would you like to bring forth which are directly addressing the nature of the Godhead?
Christ's Serf
I'm sorry but your interpretation of the scripture is vague. The scriptures that you listed do not disprove the trinity either. I think the biggest thing preventing you from a fuller knowledge of Father, Son and Holy Spirit is your lack of understanding concerning intimacy.
Why don't you try studying intimacy first, and then the Godhead.
 
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THEY ARE ONE!THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD!
THERE IS ONLY ONE CREATOR!THE HOLY GHOST ,GOD THE FATHER and THE SON,JESUS CHRIST ARE ONE!
WE ARE TO HAVE A RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD THE FATHER ,IN THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST ,THOUGH THE HOLY GHOST!
All things are done in the name of JESUS CHRIST!HE is the only way to the FATHER!
We are give a part of the HOLY GHOST ,to dwell in us and teach us,{if we are willing tpo learn}and HE will never seek glory or honor.But wants us to give all the glory and honor to our LORD ,JESUS CHRIST!

1Co 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
2Co 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.
 
spirit1st said:
THEY ARE ONE!THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD!
THERE IS ONLY ONE CREATOR!THE HOLY GHOST ,GOD THE FATHER and THE SON,JESUS CHRIST ARE ONE!
WE ARE TO HAVE A RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD THE FATHER ,IN THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST ,THOUGH THE HOLY GHOST!
Genesis 1:26
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Let Us, Let Us , Let Us make man after Our , Our , Our image. Sounds like more than one to me.
 
It appears you agree?
Rev 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
JESUS HAS ANGELS,BECAUSE HE IS GOD!
Rev 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
Rev 22:21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.
Joh 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
Joh 5:23 That all men should honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He that honoreth not the Son honoreth not the Father which hath sent him.
Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Joh 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
Joh 5:23 That all men should honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He that honoreth not the Son honoreth not the Father which hath sent him.
Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Joh 7:29 But I know him: for I am from him, and he hath sent me.
Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.
Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.
I think,I was a slow learner,It took a while for me to see,They were one.It took a while to recieve tongues.
I think?The HOLY SPIRIT must reveal most everything to us!
Few ask HIm anything?I askk HIM EVERYTHING!Nothing,HE will not teach or tell us,That our minds can except?We cannot accept all truth!Unless?We fully take on the mind of our lord!
Few if any do,I think.But HE does say?We have the mind of CHRIST!Well I think in our spirits born of GOD we do.But our flesh mind?Must be taught!:love:
 
I agree that they (Father, Son , Holy Ghost)are one with each other. Three Persons One Godhead.
 
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